Poll

Who do you think will be sworn in as President on Jan. 21?

Biden
- 14 (66.7%)
Trump
- 7 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: November 02, 2020, 06:25:59 pm


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Author Topic: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)  (Read 258150 times)

John Camp

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1800 on: September 30, 2020, 05:00:58 pm »

There were no winners in the chaotic mayhem last night. There were many losers, among them were... dignity, decency, and most of all—democracy.

Among the many extraordinary obligations of the office, the President of the United States is responsible for setting the tone for the nation's political discourse... and he has... for 4-long miserable years. Last night when that tone was of special importance, we saw what he wants that tone to be.

Beyond that, I have nothing further to say at the moment. I'm simply too depressed and disgusted by the ongoing, accelerating, and intentional sabotage and destruction of civil discourse on which democracy is dependent.

The enemies of democracy and especially the United States are celebrating today.

Oh horseshit. You gotta buck up. If you look outside your house, you won't see any blood in the street. People outside the US, other than the self-appointed appalled, won't give a rat's ass about the debate; in fact, most people in the US don't care much about it. They've got better things to do. I rather enjoyed the spectacle. It was like going to the circus, and besides a pretty large majority of people polled agreed that Biden won, which is a good thing. I thought Trump looked a lot like Tweedledum(b). Best post-debate comment came from the rather proper lady on CNN who exclaimed, "This was a shitshow."
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1801 on: September 30, 2020, 05:04:57 pm »

And just in case anyone thinks that the debate is as low as you can get, I bring you this interview with Michele Bachmann, https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/transgender-black-marxists-seek-overthrow-u-s-trump-backer-michele-n1239683, which seems to be in a special category of crazy all its own.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1802 on: September 30, 2020, 05:53:01 pm »

There were no winners in the chaotic mayhem last night. There were many losers, among them were... dignity, decency, and most of all—democracy.

Among the many extraordinary obligations of the office, the President of the United States is responsible for setting the tone for the nation's political discourse... and he has... for four long miserable years. Last night, when that tone was of special importance, we saw what he wants that tone to be.

Beyond that, I have nothing further to say at the moment. I'm simply too depressed and disgusted by the ongoing, accelerating, and intentional sabotage and destruction of civil discourse on which democracy is dependent.

The enemies of democracy and especially the United States are celebrating today.

Interestingly it was Joe Biden who started the interuption fest.  I guess he wrongly though Trump would be weak kneed like Paul Ryan.  He and the country found out other wise.
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Chris Kern

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1803 on: September 30, 2020, 06:13:19 pm »

Best post-debate comment came from the rather proper lady on CNN who exclaimed, "This was a shitshow."

Pah!  Runner-up at best to the official assessment by the Trump campaign, which opined, with an anthropomorphically and metaphorically straight face, that "President Trump just turned in the greatest debate performance in presidential history, displaying a command of the facts and control of the conversation."

TechTalk

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1804 on: September 30, 2020, 06:16:55 pm »

Oh horseshit. You gotta buck up.

You're certainly right about this. But, I need a brief respite.

People outside the US, other than the self-appointed appalled, won't give a rat's ass about the debate;

There are authoritarian regimes in the world, that have and are currently, actively seeking to undermine democracy, particularly in the West and especially in the United States as the oldest and most powerful democracy. Unwilling to attack the US by force, they seek to undermine our democracy by encouraging chaos, sowing and amplifying division among citizens, distrust in institutions of government, and disillusionment in the democratic process itself. That isn't accomplished all at once, but is a process of damage done brick by brick in hopes of eventually causing collapse or at least a severe weakening of the structure.

The spectacle was that of a President of the United States undermining confidence in the election process, casting doubt on the potential legitimacy of the outcome, refusing to commit to a peaceful transfer of power, encouraging an extremist group of brawlers to "stand by", a weak mumbling response when asked to clearly denounce white supremacists and their militia groups, and degrading an important debate into a complete debasement of dignity and decency. And it wasn't done just in the same places, times, and manners as he has for the last four years, but in the most important and internationally watched forum possible—the first presidential debate mere weeks away from an election. And the chaos that reigned on stage last night left a great many people stunned when it finally and thankfully ended.

So forgive me if I think that the bricks that uphold democracy received a sledgehammer blow last night, still standing but weakened. And yes, I do believe that our enemies are celebrating that event.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2020, 06:46:00 pm by TechTalk »
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Manoli

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1805 on: September 30, 2020, 06:50:21 pm »

People outside the US, other than the self-appointed appalled, won't give a rat's ass about the debate; in fact, most people in the US don't care much about it.

Outside the US, front page stuff on most of the major European and British rags. Sky News broadcast excerpts extensively and was the subject of much political commentary throughout the day and evening.

It was a shitshow, But Trump is expert at sowing division. Today was a performance to fire up his gun loving populist base. My feeling is he sailed too close to the wind and Giuliani won’t feel this performance gained him points. Expect the next two debates to be different.
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1806 on: September 30, 2020, 07:03:46 pm »

Best one line from all the reviews of the debate last night comes from TV critic Hank Steuver of the Washington Post, "Trump’s lone asset (besides a bronzer glow-up to a bizarre shade of crayon that isn’t yet included in the box) was the energy and ferocity with which he interrupted Biden’s attempts to answer."
Which is why debaters should be allowed to do what they do.  It let's the voters know who they are and how they act.  For good or bad, we should know these things.  It's a big part on why a voter selects one candidate over the other.  Artificially shutting them down with mute switches defeats the whole point of the debate - to see them in real action. 

We now know what it must have been like when Trump met Xi or Kim or Merkle or whoever and why they don't like him.  Maybe why they're afraid of him because of his temper.  Maybe that's good in a president.  Maybe not.  But we should know their style.  We don't have to hear policy that much. Everyone knows pretty much where they stand or can read about it in the paper.  What you want to see is how they handle themselves mano o mano.

Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1807 on: September 30, 2020, 07:09:49 pm »

There were no winners in the chaotic mayhem last night. There were many losers, among them were... dignity, decency, and most of all—democracy.

Among the many extraordinary obligations of the office, the President of the United States is responsible for setting the tone for the nation's political discourse... and he has... for four long miserable years. Last night, when that tone was of special importance, we saw what he wants that tone to be.

Beyond that, I have nothing further to say at the moment. I'm simply too depressed and disgusted by the ongoing, accelerating, and intentional sabotage and destruction of civil discourse on which democracy is dependent.

The enemies of democracy and especially the United States are celebrating today.
The President does set the tone.  But so does the Congress that under the control of the Democrats and the former administration tried to destroy his presidency with phony charges of treason, false investigations, and a contrived impeachment.  The fact that Trump still got things done despite four years of harassment is pretty amazing.  If it wasn't for his toughness, he would have quit already.

LesPalenik

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1808 on: September 30, 2020, 07:57:22 pm »

We now know what it must have been like when Trump met Xi or Kim or Merkle or whoever and why they don't like him.  Maybe why they're afraid of him because of his temper.  Maybe that's good in a president.  Maybe not.  But we should know their style.  We don't have to hear policy that much. Everyone knows pretty much where they stand or can read about it in the paper.  What you want to see is how they handle themselves mano o mano.

It's not fear, I suspect that they are repulsed by him.
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1809 on: September 30, 2020, 08:10:05 pm »

It's not fear, I suspect that they are repulsed by him.
I can't imagine Xi or Kim, who regularly kill opponents, getting too repulsed by anyone.  Unfortunately, too many previous presidents have been feckless in their dealing with tough leaders.  Having a tough President is an advantage.  He not running for "most liked leader".  Meanwhile he's up for a Nobel for Peace getting two Arab countries to make peace with Israel, with many others to follow. We need a  president who is tough, stalwart, relentless, and canny.  Who gets the job done.  Sure, it would ne nice if his personality was less grating.  But we've had presidents like that and many of them have given away the farm.

TechTalk

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1810 on: September 30, 2020, 08:31:48 pm »

Somehow Trump doesn't appear all that tough to me when he's sitting in Putin's lap.
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TechTalk

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1811 on: September 30, 2020, 08:58:58 pm »

Best post-debate comment came from the rather proper lady on CNN who exclaimed, "This was a shitshow."

I think you're right. I would give some props to other commentators as well. I liked Brian Williams remark as well... "If that wasn't a mess, it will do until the mess gets here."

https://www.axios.com/dark-event-pundits-react-chaotic-debate-2020-trump-biden
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Peter McLennan

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1812 on: September 30, 2020, 09:01:20 pm »

Trump certainly showed his true colours, no doubt about that. He’s a bully. 
You guys wanna elect a bully to be your leader, go right ahead.

The whole world's watching.
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Chris Kern

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1813 on: September 30, 2020, 09:03:45 pm »

Which is why debaters should be allowed to do what they do.  It let's the voters know who they are and how they act.  For good or bad, we should know these things.

Trump's Lies Matter.

Paulo Bizarro

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1814 on: October 01, 2020, 04:25:48 am »

Which is why debaters should be allowed to do what they do.  It let's the voters know who they are and how they act.  For good or bad, we should know these things.  It's a big part on why a voter selects one candidate over the other.  Artificially shutting them down with mute switches defeats the whole point of the debate - to see them in real action. 

We now know what it must have been like when Trump met Xi or Kim or Merkle or whoever and why they don't like him.  Maybe why they're afraid of him because of his temper.  Maybe that's good in a president.  Maybe not.  But we should know their style.  We don't have to hear policy that much. Everyone knows pretty much where they stand or can read about it in the paper.  What you want to see is how they handle themselves mano o mano.

So at the end of the day it's like a shootout in a western movie.

I think that Putin and Xi must be pleased to see that Trump continues true to himself.

Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1815 on: October 01, 2020, 08:38:00 am »

https://babylonbee.com/news/broadcast-signal-accidentally-picks-up-two-old-men-yelling-at-each-other-instead-of-presidential-debate

Broadcast Signal Accidentally Picks Up Two Old Men Yelling At Each Other Instead Of Presidential Debate


U.S.—Many were looking forward to the presidential debate tonight, hoping to thoughtfully consider each candidate's position so they could make a wise, informed decision about who to vote for in this year's election.

But it looks like that won't be happening, as debate organizers accidentally picked up a signal from some kind of nursing home where two angry old men were just shouting at each other for 90 minutes.

"The signal must have gotten crossed with some kind of live stream of an old folks' home," said one technician. "They were shouting about money and politics and viruses and all kinds of stuff. I know you were all really interested in hearing the candidates tonight. Sorry about that."
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1816 on: October 01, 2020, 10:29:51 am »

You're certainly right about this. But, I need a brief respite.

There are authoritarian regimes in the world, that have and are currently, actively seeking to undermine democracy, particularly in the West and especially in the United States as the oldest and most powerful democracy. Unwilling to attack the US by force, they seek to undermine our democracy by encouraging chaos, sowing and amplifying division among citizens, distrust in institutions of government, and disillusionment in the democratic process itself. That isn't accomplished all at once, but is a process of damage done brick by brick in hopes of eventually causing collapse or at least a severe weakening of the structure.

The spectacle was that of a President of the United States undermining confidence in the election process, casting doubt on the potential legitimacy of the outcome, refusing to commit to a peaceful transfer of power, encouraging an extremist group of brawlers to "stand by", a weak mumbling response when asked to clearly denounce white supremacists and their militia groups, and degrading an important debate into a complete debasement of dignity and decency. And it wasn't done just in the same places, times, and manners as he has for the last four years, but in the most important and internationally watched forum possible—the first presidential debate mere weeks away from an election. And the chaos that reigned on stage last night left a great many people stunned when it finally and thankfully ended.

So forgive me if I think that the bricks that uphold democracy received a sledgehammer blow last night, still standing but weakened. And yes, I do believe that our enemies are celebrating that event.
It was the Democrats who undermined democracy and weakened respect.  They were the ones who created the phony collusion and treason charges and contrived impeachment against a legitimate president of the US to undermine his authority.  90% of the supposed journalists went along with it cheering it on instead of acting like a responsible press and reporting the news fairly in an unbiased way. 

kers

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1817 on: October 01, 2020, 10:41:04 am »

It was the Democrats who undermined democracy and weakened respect.  They were the ones who created the phony collusion and treason charges and contrived impeachment against a legitimate president of the US to undermine his authority.  90% of the supposed journalists went along with it cheering it on instead of acting like a responsible press and reporting the news fairly in an unbiased way.
No it is 4 years of presidential lies, unpresidential insulting behaviour, and the consistent display of lack of trust by this President in the American democratic institutions, ministeries and scientists.
This man would do a great job being the president of North Korea.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2020, 10:50:31 am by kers »
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1818 on: October 01, 2020, 11:00:46 am »

No it is 4 years of presidential lies, unpresidential insulting behaviour, and the consistent display of lack of trust by this President in the American democratic institutions, ministeries and scientists.
This man would do a great job being the president of North Korea.
Well, I guess you're voting for Biden.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1819 on: October 01, 2020, 12:49:25 pm »

Trump mandates letter that gives him credit to accompany food aid, https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/01/trump-letter-food-aid-boxes-424230. He's a class act. He should have at least mentioned the taxpayers who actually covered the cost. I guess we should be grateful he didn't toss napkins at them.
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