Poll

Who do you think will be sworn in as President on Jan. 21?

Biden
- 14 (66.7%)
Trump
- 7 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: November 02, 2020, 06:25:59 pm


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Author Topic: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)  (Read 258737 times)

PeterAit

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1480 on: September 11, 2020, 09:40:16 am »

You are just projecting that onto me. 

Don't play psychologist, Joe, it is way beyond your competence.


I just look at the facts, and the facts are Trump got the first Arab nation in 26 years to normalize relations with Israel.  That is a big deal for peace in the region. 

And if you look further into this, Saudi Arabia is now allowing Israel to use it's airspace.  Also, this past weekend in Mecca, a leading cleric gave a sermon that was soft towards Israel, and what many assume to be a preamble to them getting ready to normalize relations with Israel. 

[quote/]

Yes, these are good things and we can hope that they pan out. But a few successes do not outweigh the vast number of horrors that Trump has inflicted on the country and the world.

As for the Peace Prize nomination, it brings to mind a cartoon I saw after Trump gave the freedom medal to that bloviating fathead Limbaugh. It showed MLK, Mother Teresa, and other freedom medal winners filing past a trash can and pitching their medals in. 
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JoeKitchen

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1481 on: September 11, 2020, 03:46:35 pm »

Don't play psychologist, Joe, it is way beyond your competence.


I just look at the facts, and the facts are Trump got the first Arab nation in 26 years to normalize relations with Israel.  That is a big deal for peace in the region. 

And if you look further into this, Saudi Arabia is now allowing Israel to use it's airspace.  Also, this past weekend in Mecca, a leading cleric gave a sermon that was soft towards Israel, and what many assume to be a preamble to them getting ready to normalize relations with Israel. 

[quote/]

Yes, these are good things and we can hope that they pan out. But a few successes do not outweigh the vast number of horrors that Trump has inflicted on the country and the world.

As for the Peace Prize nomination, it brings to mind a cartoon I saw after Trump gave the freedom medal to that bloviating fathead Limbaugh. It showed MLK, Mother Teresa, and other freedom medal winners filing past a trash can and pitching their medals in.

I would say for you, even since you insisted on countering the APA stance on arm chair diagnosis. 

And what horrors do you talk about?  I dont see one, let alone vast.  I see many from the Dems and a couple from China. 
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PeterAit

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1482 on: September 11, 2020, 03:56:15 pm »

And now we find out that Cheeto's Peace Prize nomination was forged. And that another forged nomination was submitted last year by, it seems, the same forger. I would bet you 50 cents that his sticky little fingers are behind this in some way.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/28/world/europe/nobel-peace-prize-trump-fake-nomination.html

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JoeKitchen

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1483 on: September 11, 2020, 03:56:32 pm »

Right... And you don't think that all the efforts done by Trump to undo what Obama did to establish fair relationships with Iran is far more damaging than anything he may have done?

I personally do.

What would have impressed me would have been an improvement of the relationship between the US/Israel and Iran. We got the exact opposite. We got back 8 years in time.

What would have impressed me is coherence in fighting the arab terrorist groups in the region (those same groups that were allowed to florish thanks to the second Irak war), instead we got the exact opposite.

Israel and Saudi Arabia are both long standing allies of the US in the region using the exact same military equipment and have Iran as common enemy. What's so spectacular about what you are talking about?


Fascinating stuff. How exactly do I find democracy flawed?

You are supporting a President who publicly refused to confirm he would follow the results of the next elections, is doing everything he can to prevent people from voting, who has stared to speak about 12 years in office, who has done everything he could to prevent the press from doing their job, has kept praising authoritarian leaders and their actions against democracy,...

How is it not you who is endangering democracy by providing unconditional support to a President that doesn't believe in democracy the least bit?

Cheers,
Bernard

Iran deserves no quarter from us, period.  What Obama did was indirectly finance Iran's terrorism by lifting sanctions and sending pallets of cash, the majority of which went to Hezbollah and Hamas, both terrorists organizations.  The Iran deal was a complete disgrace and folly, and accomplished nothing of merit. 

Furthermore, the idea that Iran would have looked at our appeasement as a sign of grace and become friendly is the same mistake all liberal make with adversaries, who look at it instead as a sign of weakness.  Hitler said of Chamberlain after the "Peace of Our Times," that if he even met him again, he would jump on his shoulder and punch his face since this shows he has no courage.  It same deal with Iran, which was proved by their uptick in terrorism before Obama even left office. 

Fact is, Obama inherited a Middle East that was calm and left it on fire.  His whole foreign policy was a complete disaster, all of it.  Aside from (1) funding terrorism by supporting Iran, he also (2) admonished our #1 ally, Israel, as much as he could, (3) let ISIS form just to win re-election, (4) drew a line in the sand with Syria and then did nothing when Assad stepped over it, (5) on the flip side started an unapproved war in Libya for no reason, (6) killed 1000s of innocent civilians with his indiscriminate drone attacks, (7) did nothing to prevent Russia from taking over Crimea, and (8) ignored the militarization of the South China Sea, to name a few. 

But dont let the facts get in the way of a good story I guess. 

Meanwhile, Trump announce peace deal between Bahrain and Israel. 

Two Arab nations in 26 years are now signing peace with Israel.  For all the talk about how ignorant Trump is and what a fool Kushner is, they sure got more done then Obama ever did in the Middle East. 
« Last Edit: September 11, 2020, 04:18:26 pm by JoeKitchen »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1484 on: September 11, 2020, 03:58:59 pm »

And now we find out that Cheeto's Peace Prize nomination was forged. And that another forged nomination was submitted last year by, it seems, the same forger. I would bet you 50 cents that his sticky little fingers are behind this in some way.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/28/world/europe/nobel-peace-prize-trump-fake-nomination.html

Pushing a false agenda again Peter? 

No where in that piece did it say the official nomination that was mentioned in the news this week was a forgery, only that forgeries were found in addition to the legitimate one.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1485 on: September 11, 2020, 04:02:30 pm »

I would say for you, even since you insisted on countering the APA stance on arm chair diagnosis. 

And what horrors do you talk about?  I dont see one, let alone vast.  I see many from the Dems and a couple from China.

I provided a short list one or two page ago containing 20 points for a start.

But no need to look at it, on middle east itself it’s obvious that Trump has been doing far worse than good. Proposing him for peace Nobel Price for middle east is akin to proposing him for a medecin Nobel prize for the identification of bleach drinking as a cure to the covid19. Probably even more insane in fact.

You don’t seem to realize how desperate you look when, as a Trump supporter, you have to quote such non sense (only reported by Fox news as positive for Trump) to find something positive in favour of him.

Wouldn’t it be more reasonable to converse about his clear admission that he did downplay the epidemic although he knew how lethal the virus is?

Because it’s now 100% clear per his own admission that he did. We know also that this has caused the avoidable death of tens of thousands of Americans, many of which his supporters, as well as the worst economic impacts ever to hit the country? All direct consequences of the way he choose not to act on covid.

Cheers,
Bernard

JoeKitchen

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1486 on: September 11, 2020, 04:07:40 pm »

I provided a short list one or two page ago containing 20 points for a start.

But no need to look at it, on middle east itself it’s obvious that Trump has been doing far worse than good. Proposing him for peace Nobel Price for middle east is akin to proposing him for a medecin Nobel prize for the identification of bleach drinking as a cure to the covid19. Probably even more insane in fact.

You don’t seem to realize how desperate you look when, as a Trump supporter, you have to quote such non sense (only reported by Fox news as positive for Trump) to find something positive in favour of him.

Wouldn’t it be more reasonable to converse about his clear admission that he did downplay the epidemic although he knew how lethal the virus is?

Because it’s now 100% clear per his own admission that he did. We know also that this has caused the avoidable death of tens of thousands of Americans, many of which his supporters, as well as the worst economic impacts ever to hit the country? All direct consequences of the way he choose not to act on covid.

Cheers,
Bernard

First of all, he said the same thing to Jim Accosta in March during a live press conference.  I believe we even talked about it here with the same kind of responses.  As Craig points out, you guys really have short memories, or are clutching at straws. 

Second do you also blame Pelosi and Harris for downplaying it? 

The reason Woodward did not go to the press with this in February is because he did not know if Trump was giving him credible information or talking out of his ass, a not uncommon occurrence.  It was not until May that he learned this came from a security briefing that every high ranking member of congress also received, including Pelosi and Harris.  Biden is the only one who can claim plausible deniability. 

Then, shortly after receiving this briefing, Pelosi was out in China Town telling people to go out and enjoy themselves. 

The Dems, in congress at least, are just as culpable as Trump. 

Last though, no country handled this well, and there are plenty of countries who did a lot worse then us.  So this idea that Trump is an unique bad guy is laughable.  This was going to burn through the population, and all data is showing lock downs did nothing to prevent it.  With the exception of the nursing home death, which Cuomo is more to blame than anyone else, none of these deaths were preventable. 

"Death laughs at us all, all a man can do is laugh back."
« Last Edit: September 11, 2020, 04:17:42 pm by JoeKitchen »
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PeterAit

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1487 on: September 11, 2020, 04:26:08 pm »

Pushing a false agenda again Peter? 

No where in that piece did it say the official nomination that was mentioned in the news this week was a forgery, only that forgeries were found in addition to the legitimate one.

I claimed nothing different. Please read before responding.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1488 on: September 11, 2020, 04:45:09 pm »

First of all, he said the same thing to Jim Accosta in March during a live press conference.  I believe we even talked about it here with the same kind of responses.  As Craig points out, you guys really have short memories, or are clutching at straws. 

Second do you also blame Pelosi and Harris for downplaying it? 

The reason Woodward did not go to the press with this in February is because he did not know if Trump was giving him credible information or talking out of his ass, a not uncommon occurrence.  It was not until May that he learned this came from a security briefing that every high ranking member of congress also received, including Pelosi and Harris.  Biden is the only one who can claim plausible deniability. 

Then, shortly after receiving this briefing, Pelosi was out in China Town telling people to go out and enjoy themselves. 

The Dems, in congress at least, are just as culpable as Trump. 

Last though, no country handled this well, and there are plenty of countries who did a lot worse then us.  So this idea that Trump is an unique bad guy is laughable.  This was going to burn through the population, and all data is showing lock downs did nothing to prevent it.  With the exception of the nursing home death, which Cuomo is more to blame than anyone else, none of these deaths were preventable. 

"Death laughs at us all, all a man can do is laugh back."

A nice timeline of dems, the media, Bidens advisors and even Fauci "downplaying" the virus.  Bernard is clueless.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/from-new-york-to-canada-to-the-white-house-initial-coronavirus-responses-havent-aged-well
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1489 on: September 11, 2020, 04:48:19 pm »

First of all, he said the same thing to Jim Accosta in March during a live press conference.  I believe we even talked about it here with the same kind of responses.  As Craig points out, you guys really have short memories, or are clutching at straws. 

Second do you also blame Pelosi and Harris for downplaying it? 

The reason Woodward did not go to the press with this in February is because he did not know if Trump was giving him credible information or talking out of his ass, a not uncommon occurrence.  It was not until May that he learned this came from a security briefing that every high ranking member of congress also received, including Pelosi and Harris.  Biden is the only one who can claim plausible deniability. 

Then, shortly after receiving this briefing, Pelosi was out in China Town telling people to go out and enjoy themselves. 

The Dems, in congress at least, are just as culpable as Trump. 

Last though, no country handled this well, and there are plenty of countries who did a lot worse then us.  So this idea that Trump is an unique bad guy is laughable.  This was going to burn through the population, and all data is showing lock downs did nothing to prevent it.  With the exception of the nursing home death, which Cuomo is more to blame than anyone else, none of these deaths were preventable. 

"Death laughs at us all, all a man can do is laugh back."

1. Trump is President, nobody else. How about giving him the responsibilities associated to his functions? Is the constant avoidance of responsibility something you exercise in your own life also? If ever a client weren’t happy about the task you accepted, do you always blame it on somebody else? Is that the Republican way of going around things?

2. Thanks for providing additional evidence of his wrong doings

3. Very few countries have fared worse than the US, none among highly developed nations, by a huge margin. Compare the economic impacts in China, Japan, Germany and Korea (to cite the closest economic competitors), their economy was affected much less thanks to better leadership and crisis mgt. Plus the death toll of course. Germany, a super dense country in the heart of Europe, has 6 times less deaths per inhabitant, Japan even denser and right next to China has 35 times less death, China themselves has 200 times less deaths,...

I would have expected 10 or 20% differences. The incredible ratio seen here are unheard of.

Just look at facts for a change.

4. The only economîc indicator that isn’t a total disaster in the US, again not due to the virus but due to the way Trump handled it, is the stock market. Why? Not at all because the economy is going well (which used to be correlated). Only because huge amount of public debt was used to artificially inject money, not for the sake of the citizens, but for the sake of rich stock owners. So middle class americans get the double cheese treatment: they loose jobs first and then also get to reimburse the debt indirectly, which will mean worst public schools for their kids,...

The real economic outcome of Trump’s term is the worse of any President since WWII. He is not even close to Obama eventough he started with the great economic situation Democrats gifted him as he entered office.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 11, 2020, 05:23:10 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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PeterAit

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1490 on: September 11, 2020, 04:52:38 pm »


And what horrors do you talk about? 


You are like the guy who, standing in the middle of the Himalayas and looking around, asks "What mountains?"
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JoeKitchen

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1491 on: September 11, 2020, 08:17:28 pm »

I claimed nothing different. Please read before responding.

Okay, well, I just stated the obvious in a much more ... ummm ... obvious way then. 
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JoeKitchen

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1492 on: September 11, 2020, 08:19:09 pm »

A nice timeline of dems, the media, Bidens advisors and even Fauci "downplaying" the virus.  Bernard is clueless.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/from-new-york-to-canada-to-the-white-house-initial-coronavirus-responses-havent-aged-well

Thanks for this Craig.  It really is a shame seeing so many hearts filled with hate. 
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JoeKitchen

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1493 on: September 11, 2020, 08:25:12 pm »

1. Trump is President, nobody else. How about giving him the responsibilities associated to his functions? Is the constant avoidance of responsibility something you exercise in your own life also? If ever a client weren’t happy about the task you accepted, do you always blame it on somebody else? Is that the Republican way of going around things?

2. Thanks for providing additional evidence of his wrong doings

3. Very few countries have fared worse than the US, none among highly developed nations, by a huge margin. Compare the economic impacts in China, Japan, Germany and Korea (to cite the closest economic competitors), their economy was affected much less thanks to better leadership and crisis mgt. Plus the death toll of course. Germany, a super dense country in the heart of Europe, has 6 times less deaths per inhabitant, Japan even denser and right next to China has 35 times less death, China themselves has 200 times less deaths,...

I would have expected 10 or 20% differences. The incredible ratio seen here are unheard of.

Just look at facts for a change.

4. The only economîc indicator that isn’t a total disaster in the US, again not due to the virus but due to the way Trump handled it, is the stock market. Why? Not at all because the economy is going well (which used to be correlated). Only because huge amount of public debt was used to artificially inject money, not for the sake of the citizens, but for the sake of rich stock owners. So middle class americans get the double cheese treatment: they loose jobs first and then also get to reimburse the debt indirectly, which will mean worst public schools for their kids,...

The real economic outcome of Trump’s term is the worse of any President since WWII. He is not even close to Obama eventough he started with the great economic situation Democrats gifted him as he entered office.

Cheers,
Bernard

The reality is Bernard, much of the world is in the same position as the USA, especially in Europe, when it comes to C-19.  England, France, Italy, all have death rates higher.  If you look at the data, this is obviously true.  Trying to blame him for the virus or economic conditions is lucidious and partisan, and pushing an agenda. 

On top of that, and I'll give you a hint at my thoughts coming into this election, I dont give a damn about Covid anymore.  I have not for 3 to 4 months, and have largely felt the democrats have mishandled this by insisting lock downs continue.  It is the lock downs, continued by Dems, that have brought havoc on the country.  That is one thing I am voting against, the continued lock downs. 

Also, we have a party for Capitalism, and a part for socialism using a doddering old man as cover.  Since Socialism has not only failed everywhere, but brought with it misery, suffering and death universally, the choice is pretty easy. 

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"
« Last Edit: September 11, 2020, 08:53:37 pm by JoeKitchen »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1494 on: September 11, 2020, 08:55:17 pm »

Damn!  Talk about putting bitter for sweet!

End the Nobel Peace Prize
The Trump nomination shows that peace had its chance, and blew it.


The Atlantic calls to 'end the Nobel Peace Prize' following Trump nominations

"The president's name was submitted for the 2021 prize by Norwegian lawmaker Christian Tybring-Gjedde, who cited Trump's role in brokering a peace agreement between Israel and the United Arab Emirates (UAE). Trump has since earned a second nomination from Swedish lawmaker Magnus Jacobsson for overseeing an economic deal between Kosovo and Serbia."

And now Bahrain ... anyone for a third nomination? 
« Last Edit: September 11, 2020, 09:04:45 pm by JoeKitchen »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1495 on: September 11, 2020, 10:29:04 pm »

The reality is Bernard, much of the world is in the same position as the USA, especially in Europe, when it comes to C-19.  England, France, Italy, all have death rates higher.  If you look at the data, this is obviously true.  Trying to blame him for the virus or economic conditions is lucidious and partisan, and pushing an agenda. 

On top of that, and I'll give you a hint at my thoughts coming into this election, I dont give a damn about Covid anymore.  I have not for 3 to 4 months, and have largely felt the democrats have mishandled this by insisting lock downs continue.  It is the lock downs, continued by Dems, that have brought havoc on the country.  That is one thing I am voting against, the continued lock downs. 

Also, we have a party for Capitalism, and a part for socialism using a doddering old man as cover.  Since Socialism has not only failed everywhere, but brought with it misery, suffering and death universally, the choice is pretty easy. 

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

Joe,

I don't understand why you refuse to keep looking at reality.

- England is very bad too because their prime minister adopted the exact same attitude as Trump, I agree with you on that part
- France and Italy have similar death rates (a bit lower now) but they were hit several weeks earlier than the US. Had Trump taken the measures he had to in a timely manner, learning from both the European situation and the Chinese one, he would have saved tens of thousands of people and the economy also. This is especially obvious if you loop at the time distribution,
- Still, those leaders are under heavy fire from their respective populations and their odds of reelection are very low
- I understand you not caring about covid (the impact on your system of beliefs is way too heavy to handle), but think of the families of the 100,000+ people who didn't have to die and wouldn't have died had any other President other than Trump been in command
- There is no way you can really believe that Biden is a socialist. You know it, I know it. Why even bother writing it?

Cheers,
Bernard

Robert Roaldi

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1496 on: September 12, 2020, 07:07:31 am »

They're hunting down witches in Salem again, https://thehill.com/policy/technology/516102-qanon-spreads-across-globe-shadowing-covid-19.

Maybe our species is devolving after all. I didn't want to believe it. What is going wrong in people's heads that makes them think this third-rate Twilight Zone plot is better?

It's an astonishing thing. People are walking around with unbelievable computational power in the smartphones in their pockets, which exist because of incredible advances in physics and engineering, yet they still choose to believe in ghosts and goblins. We'd better fix what's broken.
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kers

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1497 on: September 12, 2020, 08:35:57 am »

They're hunting down witches in Salem again, https://thehill.com/policy/technology/516102-qanon-spreads-across-globe-shadowing-covid-19.

Maybe our species is devolving after all. I didn't want to believe it. What is going wrong in people's heads that makes them think this third-rate Twilight Zone plot is better?

It's an astonishing thing. People are walking around with unbelievable computational power in the smartphones in their pockets, which exist because of incredible advances in physics and engineering, yet they still choose to believe in ghosts and goblins. We'd better fix what's broken.
I want that T-shirt!
It is the only thing i like about it...
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1498 on: September 12, 2020, 08:46:18 am »

Well stated opinion piece about politics as salesmanship, https://taibbi.substack.com/p/the-trump-era-sucks-and-needs-to. Just so you know, it's anti-Trump but it's anti political status quo too.
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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1499 on: September 12, 2020, 09:18:06 am »

Well stated opinion piece about politics as salesmanship, https://taibbi.substack.com/p/the-trump-era-sucks-and-needs-to. Just so you know, it's anti-Trump but it's anti political status quo too.

Walking on the streats at night...
The moon is shining bright...
What's that in the shadows??
What's that in the shadows??
Is it a dog?
Is it a cat?
Is it a dog?
What about that?
OH OH OH OH OH OH OH OH OH OH - LOOK AROUND YOU!

(the Stranglers)
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