US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)

Biden

14 (66.7%)

Trump

7 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: November 02, 2020, 06:25:59 pm

[faberryman]

You're playing word games like the media. Biden plagiarized two presidents, two other politicians and cheated in law college by plagiarizing someone else's work.  People who live in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones.

How am I playing word games? You are the one that said Biden's plagiarism was "illegal", not me.  I just asked you where you got that idea. You just don't want to admit you made it up. Every time you make something up chips away at your credibility.

[Alan Klein]

Barron was the lucky one. He got out of having to give a testimonial. It is a terrible idea to have your spouse and kids make testimonials at party conventions. Does any candidate really expect what your spouse and kids have to say will sway any voters? Can't you just parade them all out on stage and hold hands after you have made your acceptance speech? I figure the only reason to do it is that you have too many time slots and can't gin up enough other supporters. Biden did it too so I am not singling out Trump.

Biden and his wife held hands with his VP and her husband at the end of the night's proceedings at the convention.  They ignored the distance rule while wearing masks.  Of course the distance is in flux if you believe the experts. Maybe you can hold hands as long as you wear masks. 

[Craig Lamson]

Yes.

https://www.politifact.com/article/2016/jul/19/comparing-melania-trump-michelle-obama-convention-/

FAIL.  Wanna try again.

To remind you of the OPs statement:

"Is everyone forgetting Mrs Trump.lifting Michelle Obama's speech word for word?"

What part of that confuses you?

[James Clark]

FAIL.  Wanna try again.

To remind you of the OPs statement:

"Is everyone forgetting Mrs Trump.lifting Michelle Obama's speech word for word?"

What part of that confuses you?

Personally, I'm willing to give Melania a pass on this one, more or less.  The excerpts Politifact references (especially the last one) are certainly similar.  On the other hand, the sentiments are so generic that I'm not sure even in seeing them that I could express the same idea without sounding substantially similar to one or the other (unless I used some really awkward syntax and verbiage).

To the larger point, certainly no one willing to wave away Biden's history with plagiarism should be too concerned about this.  My thoughts on Trump and his team are well-known here, but there are bigger fish to fry than a relatively silent First Lady's minor bungle. 

I guess you could say, "I really don't care. Do u?"

[TechTalk]

So let's see on the one hand you have Biden who has admitted that there were times when he has written or spoken without proper quotes and attribution.

And Trump, who has had business partnerships with known organized crime figures (Trump SoHo) and a family known to be notoriously corrupt with suspected ties to money laundering for Iran’s Revolutionary Guard (Trump Tower in Baku Azerbaijan), admitted during the first campaign that he had "a little conflict of interest" with Turkey and Erdogan because of his business interests there (Twin Trump Towers in Istanbul), is known as Individual 1 in the campaign finance/hush money conviction for which Michael Cohen served time in prison, lied continously about not having any connection or business dealings in Russia until it was revealed in Nov. 2018 that he been pursuing a massive project in Moscow right up to election day, Trump Taj Mahal was fined 10 Million dollars for significant and long standing anti-money laundering violations, Trump hired Danny Sau Keung Leung, who was linked to organized crime syndicates, as Trump Taj Mahal's VP Foreign Marketing (Canadian police identified Leung as "a major player in Toronto organized crime" and a U.S. Senate Subcommittee report on Asian organized crime named Leung as an associate of the Hong Kong-based organized crime group 14K Triad), the NY Times Pulitzer Prize winning article revealed decades of corruption and bank and tax fraud currently under investigation in New York, Trump paid 25 Million dollars to settle the Trump University fraud lawsuits, Trump was ordered to pay a $2 million settlement for misusing his charitable foundation for his business and political purposes and was forced to shut it down under court supervision, etc.

As for his personal life, make of that what you like.

[chez]

I responded to this point in the other thread.  I called Trump's cheating at golf immoral and possibly illegal. But Biden's plagiarism was illegal and he failed the course when caught and had to repeat it in law college.  He also had to pull out of the 1988 presidential election when he was caught plagiarizing a UK minister, JFK, the South Korean PM, and others.

Look, I'm not defending Trump's often unethical ways.  But Biden has done many professional and personal things his mother wouldn't be proud of either.  And we have to pick one or the other.  Neither have clean hands.  So we have to use other guidelines to make our selection.

Don't know about Trump's mother, but his siblings sure ain't that proud of boy wonder.

"He cheats, he lies...don't listen to him"

[chez]

Well, I'm glad you don't defend Biden's plagiarism.  The fact is both men are flawed as was Hillary when she ran.  So other criteria will have to be used when it comes time to vote.

I think one just needs to look at how the pendemic was handled "miraculously just go away one day" to know who to not vote for.

[James Clark]

So let's see on the one hand you have Biden who has admitted that there were times when he has written or spoken without proper quotes and attribution.

And Trump, who has had business partnerships with known organized crime figures (Trump SoHo) and a family known to be notoriously corrupt with suspected ties to money laundering for Iran’s Revolutionary Guard (Trump Tower in Baku Azerbaijan), admitted during the first campaign that he had "a little conflict of interest" with Turkey and Erdogan because of his business interests there (Twin Trump Towers in Istanbul), is known as Individual 1 in the campaign finance/hush money conviction for which Michael Cohen served time in prison, lied continously about not having any connection or business dealings in Russia until it was revealed in Nov. 2018 that he been pursuing a massive project in Moscow right up to election day, Trump Taj Mahal was fined 10 Million dollars for significant and long standing anti-money laundering violations, Trump hired Danny Sau Keung Leung, who was linked to organized crime syndicates, as Trump Taj Mahal's VP Foreign Marketing (Canadian police identified Leung as "a major player in Toronto organized crime" and a U.S. Senate Subcommittee report on Asian organized crime named Leung as an associate of the Hong Kong-based organized crime group 14K Triad), the NY Times Pulitzer Prize winning article revealed decades of corruption and bank and tax fraud currently under investigation in New York, Trump paid 25 Million dollars to settle the Trump University fraud lawsuits, Trump was ordered to pay a $2 million settlement for misusing his charitable foundation for his business and political purposes and was forced to shut it down under court supervision, etc.

For God's sake - don't you get it?  Her E-Mails...

[chez]

Trying to influence the black vote.

Alice Johnson, pardoned by Trump, was put away for life under Biden-sponsored bill
https://nypost.com/2020/08/27/ex-con-pardoned-by-trump-was-put-away-by-bidens-crime-bill/

The best way to influence the black vote is to actually listen to what the block people are protesting about rather than sending in the national guard against them. If Trump thinks he can swing the black vote by this pardon...he is a fool.

[chez]

Biden and his wife held hands with his VP and her husband at the end of the night's proceedings at the convention.  They ignored the distance rule while wearing masks.  Of course the distance is in flux if you believe the experts. Maybe you can hold hands as long as you wear masks. 

You can hold hands as long as you wash your hands before you put your hand to your face. You don't have to wear a mask as long as you don't breathe.

[faberryman]

I saw a photo of Trump surrounded by his family with no social distancing or masks. It is not surprising. I am sure they have all been tested. I don’t remember seeing Mike Pence and his wife in the photo. They may have been there. I saw a couple of masks in the crowd of 1500 guests. I doubt any of them were tested, unless it was just a temperature check. I hope no one regrets having attended.

[Craig Lamson]

Personally, I'm willing to give Melania a pass on this one, more or less.  The excerpts Politifact references (especially the last one) are certainly similar.  On the other hand, the sentiments are so generic that I'm not sure even in seeing them that I could express the same idea without sounding substantially similar to one or the other (unless I used some really awkward syntax and verbiage).

To the larger point, certainly no one willing to wave away Biden's history with plagiarism should be too concerned about this.  My thoughts on Trump and his team are well-known here, but there are bigger fish to fry than a relatively silent First Lady's minor bungle. 

I guess you could say, "I really don't care. Do u?"

I only take offense with the claim word for word.  It’s a non story as you have pointed out.  I find all of the charges of plagiarism a bit petty if you ask me. 

[Peter McLennan]

Copied and pasted directly from the Politifact site:

Michelle:
"Because we want our children — and all children in this nation — to know that the only limit to the height of your achievements is the reach of your dreams and your willingness to work for them.”   

Melania:
“Because we want our children in this nation to know that the only limit to your achievements is the strength of your dreams and your willingness to work for them.”

Michelle:
“And Barack and I were raised with so many of the same values: that you work hard for what you want in life; that your word is your bond and you do what you say you're going to do; that you treat people with dignity and respect, even if you don't know them, and even if you don't agree with them."

Melania:
“From a young age, my parents impressed on me the values that you work hard for what you want in life, that your word is your bond and you do what you say and keep your promise, that you treat people with respect. They taught and showed me values and morals in their daily lives. That is a lesson that I continue to pass along to our son."


OK, you wanna split hairs, Mr. Lawyer?  OK, not precisely, absolutely and contiguously word for word, but "word for word" enough to get you disqualified by either a court of law or an academic institution.

Your desperate adherence to minutiae is telling.

.

[Craig Lamson]

Copied and pasted directly from the Politifact site:

Michelle:
"Because we want our children — and all children in this nation — to know that the only limit to the height of your achievements is the reach of your dreams and your willingness to work for them.”   

Melania:
“Because we want our children in this nation to know that the only limit to your achievements is the strength of your dreams and your willingness to work for them.”

Michelle:
“And Barack and I were raised with so many of the same values: that you work hard for what you want in life; that your word is your bond and you do what you say you're going to do; that you treat people with dignity and respect, even if you don't know them, and even if you don't agree with them."

Melania:
“From a young age, my parents impressed on me the values that you work hard for what you want in life, that your word is your bond and you do what you say and keep your promise, that you treat people with respect. They taught and showed me values and morals in their daily lives. That is a lesson that I continue to pass along to our son."


OK, you wanna split hairs, Mr. Lawyer?  OK, not precisely, absolutely and contiguously word for word, but "word for word" enough to get you disqualified by either a court of law or an academic institution.

Your desperate adherence to minutiae is telling.

.

Thanks for admitting you were wrong.  Oh wait. 

And of course the words were not spoken in either a court of law or school....

Another FAIL

[Alan Klein]

So let's see on the one hand you have Biden who has admitted that there were times when he has written or spoken without proper quotes and attribution.

And Trump, who has had business partnerships with known organized crime figures (Trump SoHo) and a family known to be notoriously corrupt with suspected ties to money laundering for Iran’s Revolutionary Guard (Trump Tower in Baku Azerbaijan), admitted during the first campaign that he had "a little conflict of interest" with Turkey and Erdogan because of his business interests there (Twin Trump Towers in Istanbul), is known as Individual 1 in the campaign finance/hush money conviction for which Michael Cohen served time in prison, lied continously about not having any connection or business dealings in Russia until it was revealed in Nov. 2018 that he been pursuing a massive project in Moscow right up to election day, Trump Taj Mahal was fined 10 Million dollars for significant and long standing anti-money laundering violations, Trump hired Danny Sau Keung Leung, who was linked to organized crime syndicates, as Trump Taj Mahal's VP Foreign Marketing (Canadian police identified Leung as "a major player in Toronto organized crime" and a U.S. Senate Subcommittee report on Asian organized crime named Leung as an associate of the Hong Kong-based organized crime group 14K Triad), the NY Times Pulitzer Prize winning article revealed decades of corruption and bank and tax fraud currently under investigation in New York, Trump paid 25 Million dollars to settle the Trump University fraud lawsuits, Trump was ordered to pay a $2 million settlement for misusing his charitable foundation for his business and political purposes and was forced to shut it down under court supervision, etc.

As for his personal life, make of that what you like.

Trump was a private individual all his life until he became president.   Biden cheated as a politician while holding positions of power.  Regardless of which one did more than the other, you can't holier than thou while Biden has cheated as well.  That's the pot calling the kettle black. 

[James Clark]

Trump was a private individual all his life until he became president.   Biden cheated as a politician while holding positions of power.  Regardless of which one did more than the other, you can't holier than thou while Biden has cheated as well.  That's the pot calling the kettle black.

But Biden isn’t an actual, you know, criminal, if that sort of stuff matters to you...   

[Alan Klein]

Don't know about Trump's mother, but his siblings sure ain't that proud of boy wonder.

"He cheats, he lies...don't listen to him"

His sibling who wrote the book was ticked off he got their father's inheritance.  She sued and got squat.   Just a family spat.

[TechTalk]

Biden cheated as a politician while holding positions of power.

Any evidence of that?

[Alan Klein]

For God's sake - don't you get it?  Her E-Mails...

Hillary sent private emails over secret servers and subsequently erased them before becoming public.  During this period, she help accumulate donations from foreign sovereigns and individuals and corporations for the Clinton foundation worth hundreds of millions WHILE she was Secretary of State.  At the same time during Obama's administration, VP Biden was getting the Ukrainian prosecutor fired.  He was investigating the corporation that Biden's son received millions of dollars from in a sweetheart, no show job, only because he was the son of a Vice President.   

[Robert Roaldi]

Hillary sent private emails over secret servers and subsequently erased them before becoming public.  During this period, she help accumulate donations from foreign sovereigns and individuals and corporations for the Clinton foundation worth hundreds of millions WHILE she was Secretary of State.  At the same time during Obama's administration, VP Biden was getting the Ukrainian prosecutor fired.  He was investigating the corporation that Biden's son received millions of dollars from in a sweetheart, no show job, only because he was the son of a Vice President.

You keep repeating those same sins over and over. Have been for months now. All part of the messaging campaign?