US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)

Biden

14 (66.7%)

Trump

7 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: November 02, 2020, 06:25:59 pm

[LesPalenik]

So not being afraid of covid19 becomes a condition to be allowed to vote?

Not to mention the anticonstitutionnality of this approach that’s incredibly shocking for a republican administration, we are right at the point where the US stops to be a democracy. In front of our eyes.

The only precedent in the past 100 years of a democratic state turning into a dictatorship is Germany.

Cheers,
Bernard

Not only Germany! 
On February 25, 1948 Czechoslovakia, until then the last democracy in Eastern Europe, turned communist for more than 40 years of totalitarian rule.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Czechoslovak_coup_d%27état

[faberryman]

Or is this just another liberal wet dream, let no crisis go to waste to achieve your goals?

Did you have any specific goals in mind?

[Alan Klein]

Do you ever read the stuff you link to?  I guess I already know the answer to that, but if you (hypothetically) had done so you would know that this was a change that is within the timeframe specified, it was agreed with other parties, and that it was a change that Ardern had been unwilling to make.

In fact of all world leaders, the one who's least like Trump or Hitler is probably Jacinda Ardern.

You really need to stop with your personal ad hominem attacks.  You're smart enough to make your point without that.  If you want to have a conversation with me, I expect to be treated with respect. Same with others here who get in the gutter to make their points. Thank you.

The PM's change of election date in New Zealand was not agreed to by others.  There was no vote.  The article stated the PM of NZ has the sole authority to unilaterally change the election date. Sure she consulted.  But consultation is not a vote.  Hitler consulted with his government too.  But he made the decisions unilaterally.  (By the way.  I'm not comparing NZ to Germany, just showing that the power of it's leader is greater than in America).

On the other hand, a US president cannot change the date unilaterally. Period. Consultation or no consultation. All these arguments that Trump is Hitler and America is like Nazi Germany are just plain political hyperbole.   

[Craig Lamson]

Did you have any specific goals in mind?

Sure, find a way to control the flow of ballots and shape the election. 

[Alan Goldhammer]

The Democrats, FBI, CIA, and the Obama administration used the security services and courts of the US government to go after a political opponents like we are a third world country.  One day they'll get a taste of their own medicine.

Just like the endless Benghazi investigation that the Republican controlled House of Representatives launched several years ago.

[Alan Klein]

Just like the endless Benghazi investigation that the Republican controlled House of Representatives launched several years ago.

It wasn't the investigation.  Those are legal and go on all the time in Congress. It was the fact that one political party illegally used the secret and police powers of government agencies to go after the president from the other party accusing him of treason.  You can't compare the two.

[faberryman]

It wasn't the investigation.  Those are legal and go on all the time in Congress. It was the fact that one political party illegally used the secret and police powers of government agencies to go after the president from the other party accusing him of treason.  You can't compare the two.

What exactly are those secret powers? I mean if you know about them, they could hardly be called secret.

If those congressional investigations about Benghazi were okay, why were Trump and the Republicans so bent out of shape about the Russia and Ukraine investigations? I mean they were legal and go on all the time in Congress. At least I think that is what you said.

[faberryman]

Sure, find a way to control the flow of ballots and shape the election.

Gosh, I thought that is what Trump is doing. I read yesterday that in North Carolina people were receiving in the mail absentee ballot requests forms with Trump's picture on them.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/16/politics/postal-service-trump-absentee-ballot-request-mail-usps/index.html

I have not researched NC election law, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was not illegal, but I am not sure that anything the Democrats are supposed to be doing is illegal either.

[Jim Pascoe]

People have no problem going to Home Depot, Best Buy, the cell phone store, the pharmacy, the grocery, heck even restaurants around me are as full as they can be.  So what’s the problem with going to vote?  Or is this just another liberal wet dream, let no crisis go to waste to achieve your goals?

When you say 'people', do you mean everybody?  Because here in the UK, whilst MANY people are out and about, there are a significant number who are still not.  I don't know whether Covid favours Rep. or Dem in the US, but the fear of it might well change the election result - might it not?

Jim

[jeremyrh]

You really need to stop with your personal ad hominem attacks.  You're smart enough to make your point without that.  If you want to have a conversation with me, I expect to be treated with respect. Same with others here who get in the gutter to make their points. Thank you.

The PM's change of election date in New Zealand was not agreed to by others.  There was no vote.  The article stated the PM of NZ has the sole authority to unilaterally change the election date. Sure she consulted.  But consultation is not a vote.  Hitler consulted with his government too.  But he made the decisions unilaterally.  (By the way.  I'm not comparing NZ to Germany, just showing that the power of it's leader is greater than in America).

On the other hand, a US president cannot change the date unilaterally. Period. Consultation or no consultation. All these arguments that Trump is Hitler and America is like Nazi Germany are just plain political hyperbole.

Sorry mate, but you can't vote for the pussy grabber and still demand respect.

As regards NZ, as I said before, the example is ridiculous because delaying the election helps Ardern's opponents, not her - she acted in the interests of democracy, not her own interests.  Compare and contrast.

[Alan Klein]

Sorry mate, but you can't vote for the pussy grabber and still demand respect.

As regards NZ, as I said before, the example is ridiculous because delaying the election helps Ardern's opponents, not her - she acted in the interests of democracy, not her own interests.  Compare and contrast.

I have nothing further to say to you anymore.  Have a nice day.

[Alan Klein]

What exactly are those secret powers? I mean if you know about them, they could hardly be called secret.

If those congressional investigations about Benghazi were okay, why were Trump and the Republicans so bent out of shape about the Russia and Ukraine investigations? I mean they were legal and go on all the time in Congress. At least I think that is what you said.

The illegal shenanigans by the CIA, FBI, and other government agencies were secret except  the Obama administration's and the agencies involved.  Trump, his campaign, and the public knew nothing.  Some of it has come out by Congressional investigations. But, much of it is still secret as the democrats and agencies have hidden stuff to protect themselves. 

I have no problem with Congress investigating Ukraine or Benghazi.  It's how one party keeps the other honest.  It's how Congress keeps the Executive branch honest. It helps inform the public what's going on in government.  But those are legal unlike what happened to Trump with the FISA court and FBI.  The latter was an illegal attempt to damage the president or pull off a coup using the impressive police powers of the Federal government.

[faberryman]

The illegal shenanigans by the CIA, FBI, and other government agencies were secret except  the Obama administration's and the agencies involved.  Trump, his campaign, and the public knew nothing.  Some of it has come out by Congressional investigations. But, much of it is still secret as the democrats and agencies have hidden stuff to protect themselves.

So you weren't talking about secret powers when to wrote "used the secret and police powers"?

I have no problem with Congress investigating Ukraine or Benghazi.  It's how one party keeps the other honest.  It's how Congress keeps the Executive branch honest. It helps inform the public what's going on in government.  But those are legal unlike what happened to Trump with the FISA court and FBI.  The latter was an illegal attempt to damage the president or pull off a coup using the impressive police powers of the Federal government.

So you think it all turns on whether the FBI mentioning the Steele dossier in a footnote to a FISA application to conduct surveillance on Carter Page was illegal. Do you have a link to some article that makes the case that the FBI mentioning the Steele dossier in a footnote to a FISA application to conduct surveillance on Carter Page was illegal? I thought the FISA application to conduct surveillance on Carter Page was processed after he left the Trump campaign,  so I am not sure how it is even relevant, but I could be wrong about the timing. Did the FISA court grant applications for the FBI to conduct surveillance on anyone else in the Trump campaign. I don't think so, but I may be misremembering.

A coup? Describe exactly how that was going to take place. I am having trouble visualizing it.

[jeremyrh]

I have nothing further to say to you anymore.  Have a nice day.

Good. Now you know how I feel when someone tells me that “all lives matter”.

[Alan Klein]

So you weren't talking about secret powers when to wrote "used the secret and police powers"?

So you think it all turns on whether the FBI mentioning the Steele dossier in a footnote to a FISA application to conduct surveillance on Carter Page was illegal. Do you have a link to some article that makes the case that the FBI mentioning the Steele dossier in a footnote to a FISA application to conduct surveillance on Carter Page was illegal? I thought the FISA application to conduct surveillance on Carter Page was processed after he left the Trump campaign,  so I am not sure how it is even relevant, but I could be wrong about the timing. Did the FISA court grant applications for the FBI to conduct surveillance on anyone else in the Trump campaign. I don't think so, but I may be misremembering.

I don't understand your first question.

The FBI lied to the FISA court.  Once the investigation got going, it had a life of its own.  It led to Mueller and false charges of conspiracy and collusion.  I'm not going to research google to refresh your memory or mine for each stage. However, it was a very bad chapter in American political and legal deception that hurt the country.  It set us up for similar chicanery and harm in the future.

[faberryman]

The FBI lied to the FISA court.

Did they? About what exactly?

Once the investigation got going, it had a life of its own.  It led to Mueller and false charges of conspiracy and collusion.  I'm not going to research google to refresh your memory or mine for each stage. However, it was a very bad chapter in American political and legal deception that hurt the country.  It set us up for similar chicanery and harm in the future.

[Alan Klein]

Did they? About what exactly?

They used the dossier after getting rid of Steele who put it together with supposed Russian spies he knew.  The FBI doubted that much of it was credible.  Yet they used it anyway to support their case to the FISA court. 

Something new from three days ago regarding Carter Page. An FBI lawyer who didn't like Trump will plead guilty for lying in emails. It's part of a separate probe into the investigation of the investigation. It's new information so I'm not familiar with all the details.  However, here's part of what it's about from Washington Post. 

"A former FBI lawyer has agreed to plead guilty to altering an email that helped justify surveillance of a former Trump campaign adviser as part of the 2016 investigation into Russian interference in the election, according to his lawyer and a person familiar with the matter.

Kevin Clinesmith, who worked in the FBI general counsel’s office, is expected to admit he doctored an email so it said that former Trump campaign adviser Carter Page was not a source for the CIA, even though Page previously had a relationship with the agency. Relying on what Clinesmith had said, the FBI ultimately did not disclose Page’s relationship with the CIA as it applied to renew a warrant to monitor him as a possible agent of a foreign power."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/kevin-clinesmith-fbi-trump-russia-john-durham/2020/08/14/2f579994-de26-11ea-809e-b8be57ba616e_story.html

[Craig Lamson]

Gosh, I thought that is what Trump is doing. I read yesterday that in North Carolina people were receiving in the mail absentee ballot requests forms with Trump's picture on them.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/16/politics/postal-service-trump-absentee-ballot-request-mail-usps/index.html

I have not researched NC election law, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was not illegal, but I am not sure that anything the Democrats are supposed to be doing is illegal either.

Its pretty standard for political parties to send out absentee ballot request forms with candidate photos on them.  Nothing wrong with that. 

[Craig Lamson]

When you say 'people', do you mean everybody?  Because here in the UK, whilst MANY people are out and about, there are a significant number who are still not.  I don't know whether Covid favours Rep. or Dem in the US, but the fear of it might well change the election result - might it not?

Jim

For those who won't or can't go out, request an application for an absentee ballot.  Simple.

[faberryman]

Its pretty standard for political parties to send out absentee ballot request forms with candidate photos on them.  Nothing wrong with that.

News to me, but I have only lived in three states.