Poll

Who do you think will be sworn in as President on Jan. 21?

Biden
- 14 (66.7%)
Trump
- 7 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: November 02, 2020, 06:25:59 pm


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Author Topic: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)  (Read 260210 times)

faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #620 on: August 14, 2020, 01:34:50 pm »

Declaring you favor one race over the other in a selection process will perpetuate conflict between the races.  A president is supposed to be president of all the people.  By declaring to the world as Biden did that he'll favor one group if he gets elected, it forces other groups to band together to defend their interests.  It creates the very race fights you're trying to avoid and put behind us. This does not add to harmony in the country.  Unfortunately, that the way the whole Democrat party operates when it comes to race.  That's a lot different than balancing the ticket by picking for VP a "favorite son", let's say a governor of a state you wish to carry in the election.

Here is the definition from Wikipedia, the fountain of all knowledge:

"In United States politics, balancing the ticket is when a political candidate chooses a running mate, usually of the same party, with the goal of bringing more widespread appeal to the campaign. It is most prominently used to describe the selection of the U.S. Vice Presidential candidate."

You seem to approve of "favorite sons" as VP picks. What about favorite daughters? How about favorite black sons and favorite black daughters?
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 02:11:05 pm by faberryman »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #621 on: August 14, 2020, 01:39:05 pm »

Irony is dead, desiccated, burned, buried, and shot into the sun on a G**D**n rocket.

I have to agree with Alan on this one James.  As much as you may choose not to see it, Biden openly picking someone largely based on race and sex, and campaigning on that, legitimizes racism and sexism, or at the very least encourages conversations based solely on race and sex.  If you are supporting a candidate who makes this an issue, dont be surprised when you are confronted with it from the opposite side of the isle. 

It is a horrible standard that has been set that unwittingly gives ammunition to some of the least respectable people in society.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 01:51:41 pm by JoeKitchen »
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faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #622 on: August 14, 2020, 01:53:43 pm »

I have to agree with Alan on this one James.  As much as you may choose not to see it, Biden openly picking someone largely based on race and sex, and campaigning on that, legitimizes racism and sexism, or at the very least encourages conversations based solely on race and sex.  If you are supporting a candidate who makes this an issue, dont be surprised when you are confronted with it from the opposite side of the isle. 

It is a horrible standard that has been set that unwittingly gives ammunition to some of the least respectable people in society.  As I said before, Obama knew better, and Biden is no Obama.

The funny thing is you never hear that charge leveled when a white male is selected.  It's only when a minority or a female is selected. Then it's racism and sexism. I guess if you don't say the quiet part out loud, it's not a problem.  Winks and nods and silent understandings are presumably okay too.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 02:13:14 pm by faberryman »
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Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #623 on: August 14, 2020, 02:03:07 pm »

Irony is dead, desiccated, burned, buried, and shot into the sun on a G**D**n rocket.

James, you need to get out, get some sun, suck down a few adult beverages and relax.  :)  :) :)
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James Clark

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #624 on: August 14, 2020, 02:07:28 pm »

James, you need to get out, get some sun, suck down a few adult beverages and relax.  :)  :) :)

A fair point ;)



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JoeKitchen

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #625 on: August 14, 2020, 02:12:44 pm »

The funny thing is you never hear that charge leveled when a white male is selected. I guess if you don't say the quiet part out loud, it's not a problem.  Winks and nods and silent understandings are presumably okay too.

This is a false premise Frank.  It's not the selection that is the issue, but the criteria which is used to make that selection.

If someone said I am going to make sure my VP is a white male, you most certainly would hear backlash.  As a matter of fact, Richard Spencer makes it his life's mission to insist white non-jewish men should run things, and he gets near universal backlash.  So your assertion is clearly wrong. 

However, if someone made no public comment about what race or gender his/her VP should be, there would not be any racal/gender backlash regardless if that person was a white man or black woman. 

Let me clearly state, I really don't think it should matter what race or gender the pick is.  I am just merely pointing out making that a criteria of selection gives those that do a lot of ammo to work with.  Of course we can, and should push back on those people, for making race an issue, but they can very easily turn the argument around by saying Biden was the one who made it an issue in the first place. 

If this ends up fomenting to the surface, it will be a bad position for the country to be in and solely be the fault of the Dems for creating it. 


Here's another way of thinking about it, if race is clearly an issue, then why were all of the minority candidates the first to drop out of the primaries?  I mean if race is so important, what does that say about Democrat voters?   ;)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 02:21:10 pm by JoeKitchen »
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faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #626 on: August 14, 2020, 02:21:58 pm »

However, if someone made no public comment about what race or gender his/her VP should be, there would not be any racal/gender backlash regardless if that person was a white man or black woman.

We do not live in the same universe.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #627 on: August 14, 2020, 02:23:32 pm »

We do not live in the same universe.

Yes, you are off in space somewhere, while I am down on Earth. 

I am merely taking this philosophy to its logical conclusion, which they always progress towards anyway.  You are just choosing to ignore that logical conclusion. 

It's the same thing with racial diversity training that is all of the rage nowadays.  Study after study has shown it is not effective and just makes racial problems worse in a company.  Logically this makes sense.  If you teach that white people are the source of all problems for minorities, while ignoring uplifting messages to give to minorities, all it does is teach people to think less of white people while not altering their opinions on minorities.  Of course it makes things worse; the idea it wouldn't is fantasy.  Similar thing here. 

You're also making the mistake of looking at this from your point of view, not the White Nationalist's point of view.  Although I despise that point of view, if I look at this issue from it, this is great ammo to have. 
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 02:35:00 pm by JoeKitchen »
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faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #628 on: August 14, 2020, 02:28:32 pm »

Here's another way of thinking about it, if race is clearly an issue, then why were all of the minority candidates the first to drop out of the primaries?  I mean if race is so important, what does that say about Democrat voters?   ;)

The Democrat voters probably felt that the best chance to beat Trump was with Biden, and that the minority candidates would get shellacked. Are you suggesting they should select a loser out of principal?
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JoeKitchen

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #629 on: August 14, 2020, 02:32:37 pm »

The Democrat voters probably felt that the best chance to beat Trump was with Biden, and that the minority candidates would get shellacked. Are you suggesting they should select a loser out of principal?

The Dems are the ones that keep on insisting that we need to help minorities by putting more of them in positions of power, and if you do not agree, you're a racist.  Then, the Dems were given a wide selection of minority candidate to choose from, and they went with a rich old white guy.  Good job everyone!

That's either being hypocritical and the Dems are truly racist at heart, or them showing the world that race, in fact, does not matter.  I believe it is the latter. 

Furthermore, Klobuchar was clearly the best choice.  Biden has always been a weak candidate and I still don't think he will pull it off.  Even without the pandemic, I was certain Klobuchar would have. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #630 on: August 14, 2020, 02:36:40 pm »

The funny thing is you never hear that charge leveled when a white male is selected.  It's only when a minority or a female is selected. Then it's racism and sexism. I guess if you don't say the quiet part out loud, it's not a problem.  Winks and nods and silent understandings are presumably okay too.
Joe responded to your post very well.  I'll just add that no one votes for a president because he picked a white male for his VP.  No one thinks a president is going to favor white males as a group. 

It's different when it comes to racial identity and selection especially when it's specifically stated as the reason a person is being selected.  Because of our history, it perpetuates racial group identity and separation which is something we have to get past if we wish to avoid conflict over it.

faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #631 on: August 14, 2020, 02:49:05 pm »

Joe responded to your post very well.  I'll just add that no one votes for a president because he picked a white male for his VP.  No one thinks a president is going to favor white males as a group.

It's different when it comes to racial identity and selection especially when it's specifically stated as the reason a person is being selected.  Because of our history, it perpetuates racial group identity and separation which is something we have to get past if we wish to avoid conflict over it.

I am sure you are genuine in your beliefs.
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faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #632 on: August 14, 2020, 03:03:06 pm »

The Dems are the ones that keep on insisting that we need to help minorities by putting more of them in positions of power, and if you do not agree, you're a racist.  Then, the Dems were given a wide selection of minority candidate to choose from, and they went with a rich old white guy.  Good job everyone!

That's either being hypocritical and the Dems are truly racist at heart, or them showing the world that race, in fact, does not matter.  I believe it is the latter.

That sure seems to put the Democrats in a no-win situation. Pick a white male running mate and you are a hypocrite; pick a black female running mate and you are a racist and sexist.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 03:08:11 pm by faberryman »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #633 on: August 14, 2020, 03:09:03 pm »

Frank, you really need to look into the anti-racist theory and White Fragility training being taught by the left in your party.  All of it states that we should first judge people based on their racial identity, and that we are all subject to inherent qualities of our race and gender.  It reads like a polished version of David Duke's philosophy geared towards white woke liberals. 

Here is a great critique of this theory by a black professor in The Atlantic.  Fact is, this is being sold wholesale on the left currently. 

The Dehumanizing Condescension of White Fragility

This is the logical conclusion of what you are pushing.  You are obviously not there, yet, but it is the direction this is all pushing towards and the philosophy that coerced Biden.  Your party is infected with illiberalism; liberal thought leaders know it, which is why that Harper's letter was penned. 
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 03:15:05 pm by JoeKitchen »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #634 on: August 14, 2020, 03:10:57 pm »

That sure seems to put the Democrats in a no-win situation. Pick a white male running mate and you are a hypocrite; pick a black female running mate and you are a racist and sexist.

Once again, you are contorting what I am saying, whether or not intentional. 

I never said the selection was the issue, only the racial and gender criteria used for that selection was, which gives obvious ammo to White Nationalists, like Richard Spenser.  Do you really want to empower people like him? 

You should at least try to keep up with the conversation. 

Not to mention this is a problem the Dems created, by insisting on using identity politics.  If you guys actually campaigned on policy, you need not worry about looking like hypocrites.  You put yourself in this corner. 
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 03:14:01 pm by JoeKitchen »
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faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #635 on: August 14, 2020, 03:19:25 pm »

Frank, you really need to look into the anti-racist theory and White Fragility training being taught by the left in your party.

I am not sure why you think I am a Democrat. Is it because I think Trump is an idiot? A lot of Republicans use to believe that. I am sure many still do.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #636 on: August 14, 2020, 03:20:56 pm »

I am not sure why you think I am a Democrat. Is it because I think Trump is an idiot? A lot of Republicans use to believe that. I am sure many still do.

Nice deflection. 
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faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #637 on: August 14, 2020, 03:38:16 pm »

Could race and gender be two among many criteria used to select Harris?
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #638 on: August 14, 2020, 03:49:06 pm »

Could race and gender be two among many criteria used to select Harris?
Biden made race and gender the primary determinant in his selection process.  So by ignoring many potential candidates who may have been better VP choices, the public now has to decide if Harris can take over as President if Biden doesn't finish his term.   Had he selected someone with stronger credentials, he would have allayed concerns that the public legitimately have about his health and age. 

JoeKitchen

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #639 on: August 14, 2020, 03:59:31 pm »

Could race and gender be two among many criteria used to select Harris?

Sure, if you're fine with legitimizing racism and sexism.  I'm not, but if you want to, knock yourself out. 

Let's say Richard Spenser needed to fill a position and his mandatory criteria was master degree needed, 5+ years of experience, licensed in area of expertise, knowledge of computer programming, white (non-jew).  Would you be okay with this?  After all, race is only part of the criteria listed.  It's just a tiny little part too, at the end after all, no big deal, right?

You cant logically argue that it is okay to use one race to base your selection off of without allowing White Nationalists to do the same (with whatever positions they seek to fill).  So if want to create that position for them, have at it.  I would rather not.

I would say a better option would be to pick the most qualified person (the same argument you used for the Dems' selection of Biden).  Take for instance Obama, he was clearly the most qualified Democrat in 2008, and not because he black.  That was merely a superficial quality.  For the time, the message he had worked and he was a master technician when it came to running a campaign. 
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 04:03:54 pm by JoeKitchen »
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