US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)

Biden

14 (66.7%)

Trump

7 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: November 02, 2020, 06:25:59 pm

[hogloff]

Yes. In New Jersey where I live, it's mandated for new home construction.  The real estate developer has to include  a certain percentage of the homes he's building to low income.  We're getting killed with school costs. More than half of my property taxes go for schooling.  i have no children in schools.  I don't mind paying schools taxes even though I have no kids as someone paid for me when I was a kid.  It's just that it costs $18,000 per child [annually = edit] for school and going up.  They have to build a new high school and addition to K-12 to cover all the new kids.
 Even then it won't be enough.  There are a lot of fixed income retired people who can't afford these escalating property taxes caused by these mandates.

Well the young are saying "damn old people is costing me a bundle in health costs supporting their heart conditions. Why not just segregate them to retirement communities and let them die naturally so us youngster can enjoy our lives".

Sort of goes both ways don't it.

[faberryman]

They must figure my property taxes differently. If we have an increase in the number of children in the county who need schooling, it doesn't matter where they live, my property taxes go up.

[Alan Klein]

Well the young are saying "damn old people is costing me a bundle in health costs supporting their heart conditions. Why not just segregate them to retirement communities and let them die naturally so us youngster can enjoy our lives".

Sort of goes both ways don't it.

Of course.  Every group is looking for the government to do something for them at the expense of someone else.  It's always "raise the other guy's taxes".  Or "give me something for free and let the other guy pay for it. "  SO everyone is separated ion groups: poor vs. rich.  Black vs. white. Old vs. young. Male vs. female.  Identity politics with each group trying to get more than the others.  Meanwhile, politicians try to get the votes by promising more giveaways and less taxes.  So the government prints money debasing its value.  It's a race to the bottom. 

[Alan Klein]

They must figure my property taxes differently. If we have an increase in the number of children in the county who need schooling, it doesn't matter where they live, my property taxes go up.

The county has it's taxes.  But school taxes are determined separately in each town within the county here in New Jersey.  Our township gets very little help from the state of NJ.  So we fund about 95% of the schools costs.  So if a low income person move into a coop and pays let's say $2500 in school taxes, but his two kids cost $18,000 each per year or $36,000, the rest of the township property owners have to pick up the difference of $33,500.  My new tax bill just went up 5%.  But the bill says that's just an estimate.  I suspect, when all the losses of tax collection due to Covid 19 are added up, they're going to have to raise it a lot higher.  That's just for the next 12 months.  It's getting out of hand. SS and my pension aren't going up. There are people where I live who have to sell their homes and move to another state with less taxes. It's why FLorida and Texas is growing and California, NY and NJ are shrinking in population. 

[hogloff]

Of course.  Every group is looking for the government to do something for them at the expense of someone else.  It's always "raise the other guy's taxes".  Or "give me something for free and let the other guy pay for it. "  SO everyone is separated ion groups: poor vs. rich.  Black vs. white. Old vs. young. Male vs. female.  Identity politics with each group trying to get more than the others.  Meanwhile, politicians try to get the votes by promising more giveaways and less taxes.  So the government prints money debasing its value.  It's a race to the bottom.

You haven't answered my question. What is your solution to low income housing? I know your view of "not in my backyard", but if not in yours...then where? And if you don't want to pay for it, who should?

[faberryman]

The county has it's taxes.  But school taxes are determined separately in each town within the county here in New Jersey.  Our township gets very little help from the state of NJ.  So we fund about 95% of the schools costs.  So if a low income person move into a coop and pays let's say $2500 in school taxes, but his two kids cost $18,000 each per year or $36,000, the rest of the township property owners have to pick up the difference of $33,500.  My new tax bill just went up 5%.  But the bill says that's just an estimate.  I suspect, when all the losses of tax collection due to Covid 19 are added up, they're going to have to raise it a lot higher.  That's just for the next 12 months.  It's getting out of hand. SS and my pension aren't going up. There are people where I live who have to sell their homes and move to another state with less taxes. It's why FLorida and Texas is growing and California, NY and NJ are shrinking in population.

So it is not that you don't want low cost housing in your neighborhood, you don't want low cost housing anywhere in the township. And you certainly don't want any families with children moving into your township. That's just a tax increase for you.

I don't know why you live in New Jersey. You've told us that you have high state income taxes, high property taxes, out of control voter fraud, doctors that won't take Medicare patients or even see their other patients in person, and low income people who are trying to invade your neighborhoods, not to mention the grocery clerks who take their masks off to wipe their noses when loading your groceries in your car trunk. I'm sure I have left something out. Oh, its a blue state so your vote for Trump is meaningless. Why don't you go live someplace more congenial?

[Peter McLennan]

Of course.  Every group is looking for the government to do something for them at the expense of someone else. It's a race to the bottom.

In a strictly capitalist society, yes.  In a more, uh, socialist society, no.

[Alan Klein]

You haven't answered my question. What is your solution to low income housing? I know your view of "not in my backyard", but if not in yours...then where? And if you don't want to pay for it, who should?

Government paid for schooling is way too expensive, like every government program.  Government should issue credits for private schooling.  That would reduce the cost and improve education at the same time.  Let's start there. 

Also, types of housing should not be mandated by government.  Eliminate rent control.  That would encourage builders to build more apartments and decrease rental costs for low income families.   

[faberryman]

Also, types of housing should not be mandated by government.  Eliminate rent control.  That would encourage builders to build more apartments and decrease rental costs for low income families.

Just what America needs: more Kushner owned apartment complexes. Decrease rental costs? You've got to be joking.

[hogloff]

Also, types of housing should not be mandated by government.  Eliminate rent control.  That would encourage builders to build more apartments and decrease rental costs for low income families.

In your neighbourhood...or somewhere out of sight?

[hogloff]

Just what America needs: more Kushner owned apartment complexes. Decrease rental costs? You've got to be joking.

Yep, those that build apartments do it out of the goodness of their hearts...not their wallets. Does anyone think that if government totally stepped out, the billionaires of this world would step in and care about low income families and their housing?

[Alan Klein]

Yep, those that build apartments do it out of the goodness of their hearts...not their wallets. Does anyone think that if government totally stepped out, the billionaires of this world would step in and care about low income families and their housing?

Of course people build to make money.  Don't you go to work to make money too?  Who's going to work or build something if they can't make money?  There's nothing immoral about that.  No one works for nothing.  Do wedding photographers work for free?  They're business people.  Only socialists think like that.  Get over it.  When someone starts a business, they think there's a need for it and they'll get customers.  If there's a market for low cost rental housing, it will be built.

[hogloff]

Of course people build to make money.  Don't you go to work to make money too?  Who's going to work or build something if they can't make money?  There's nothing immoral about that.  No one works for nothing.  Do wedding photographers work for free?  They're business people.  Only socialists think like that.  Get over it.  When someone starts a business, they think there's a need for it and they'll get customers.  If there's a market for low cost rental housing, it will be built.

That's the problem right there...if there is a market...in other words if they can make a bunch of money, low cost housing will be built. But if there is something better to build, that low cost housing and the potential tenants will be out of luck...out on the streets...rising crime rates...building yet more prisons...and in the end costing the government way more money than if they just built low cost housing in the first place.

Some things like a place to hang your hat, your health, food etc...are not a luxury, but a necessity and its government, in fact the people like you Alan, that should ensure this necessity of life is available to all. It is not something that the rich should get richer from nor neglect because they can't make a buck from it. It's just basic good humanity and I'm glad that there are parts of this world that don't live and die by the almighty buck.

[Alan Klein]

That's the problem right there...if there is a market...in other words if they can make a bunch of money, low cost housing will be built. But if there is something better to build, that low cost housing and the potential tenants will be out of luck...out on the streets...rising crime rates...building yet more prisons...and in the end costing the government way more money than if they just built low cost housing in the first place.

Some things like a place to hang your hat, your health, food etc...are not a luxury, but a necessity and its government, in fact the people like you Alan, that should ensure this necessity of life is available to all. It is not something that the rich should get richer from nor neglect because they can't make a buck from it. It's just basic good humanity and I'm glad that there are parts of this world that don't live and die by the almighty buck.

Your contention is wrong.  I'm from NYC and 90% of apartment buildings are for low and middle income people.  Go to a socialist nation like the former Soviet Union and Cuba if you want to see dilapidated housing.  Additionally in NYC, public housing paid for and maintained at public expense is available as well.  Typical of government owned and managed facilities, they are poorly maintained and have the highest crime rates because no one gives a damn because there's no profit motive. 

[James Clark]

The county has it's taxes.  But school taxes are determined separately in each town within the county here in New Jersey.  Our township gets very little help from the state of NJ.  So we fund about 95% of the schools costs.  So if a low income person move into a coop and pays let's say $2500 in school taxes, but his two kids cost $18,000 each per year or $36,000, the rest of the township property owners have to pick up the difference of $33,500.  My new tax bill just went up 5%.  But the bill says that's just an estimate.  I suspect, when all the losses of tax collection due to Covid 19 are added up, they're going to have to raise it a lot higher.  That's just for the next 12 months.  It's getting out of hand. SS and my pension aren't going up. There are people where I live who have to sell their homes and move to another state with less taxes. It's why FLorida and Texas is growing and California, NY and NJ are shrinking in population.

Uh... Texas works EXACTLY like this.   No income tax, so everything runs off of property taxes.   That means that what you pay scales with property value, not what you earn, so a high earner that loses his/her job (or a retiree) is screwed.  Many, many people in Texas are being property taxed out of their homes.

[Alan Klein]

Uh... Texas works EXACTLY like this.   No income tax, so everything runs off of property taxes.   That means that what you pay scales with property value, not what you earn, so a high earner that loses his/her job (or a retiree) is screwed.  Many, many people in Texas are being property taxed out of their homes.

Like they say.  There's no escaping death and taxes. 

[Robert Roaldi]

That's the trouble with "not in my backyard" isn't it?  Everything is in someone's back yard.

[PeterAit]

If there's a market for low cost rental housing, it will be built.

There's a huge market, but by definition the potential buyers/renters can't afford to pay much. And it's long known that there's more money to be made from building middle/high end housing. So the low income market is ignored, absent government incentives/regulations, and the builders focus on the higher profit projects.

[Alan Klein]

There's a huge market, but by definition the potential buyers/renters can't afford to pay much. And it's long known that there's more money to be made from building middle/high end housing. So the low income market is ignored, absent government incentives/regulations, and the builders focus on the higher profit projects.

Since there's a market,  someone will build it. Not everyone can afford a Mercedes.   Cheap cars are built too.  So it is with homes and apartments.

[hogloff]

Since there's a market,  someone will build it. Not everyone can afford a Mercedes.   Cheap cars are built too.  So it is with homes and apartments.

Without government assistance, many of the low income families cannot make rental payments, pay the bills and feed their families. How far do you think minimum wage stretches?