The Myth of Systemic Racism

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

No; whilst I have no respect for Trump, this wasn't his fault: that belongs to the idiot in uniform who killed that black guy with his knee. And to the other uniformed morons who stood by and watched when they could have pulled him off, for his own sake as well as for theirs. On the face of it...

Not to defend his actions, but that appears to be a standard police technique used to subdue unruly arrestee. It is taught in police academies. Some say it was abandoned in 2016 in some cities, some are still possibly using it, but cops tend resort to what they were taught at the time of their training. It seems that the kneeling cop (and the other three) didn't think he was doing anything wrong, given that he was fully aware he's been videotaped all the time.

Here is a link to a Washington Post article of a similar case in Texas:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/08/01/police-laughed-joked-he-lost-consciousness-handcuffs-minutes-later-he-died/?fbclid=IwAR0RRTTX8-UVESEbmxPy65hLUGha_aLl_TkUxKp22K-krhpnyBz5HkpBm5A

All actors were white.

[JoeKitchen]

More bagpipes!!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwLaDzKFiBY

Are you Scottish?  If not, what's the obsession? 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Not to defend his actions, but that appears to be a standard police technique used to subdue unruly arrestee.

From the secutity tape footage that I've seen, George Floyd didn't seem unruly. Do you have different evidence?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

You might find it interesting to hear from a black civil rights activist with a long history, what he thinks of the current race riots:

https://video.foxnews.com/v/6161247705001?fbclid=IwAR1JiebVjYX_ihdS1KnA8NMPB5zBgSqTUQFNcGTlWlXciZebPDK5honbwtc#sp=show-clips

Civil rights activist Bob Woodson responds to riots: Race is being used as a ruse

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

From the secutity tape footage that I've seen, George Floyd didn't seem unruly. Do you have different evidence?

Apparently, when they tried to get him into the car after the arrest, he claimed he is claustrophobic and that he can not get in, trying to resist getting into the car. This is something I read a couple of days ago, so not sure about the veracity of the source anymore. Is there some video that shows the events prior to having him on the ground?

[JoeKitchen]

From the secutity tape footage that I've seen, George Floyd didn't seem unruly.

I think all us of (I hope) are agreement with this.

What I find troubling now though is the DA is increasing the charge to 2nd degree murder, which requires malice and that he intentionally wanted to kill him, purely due to political reasons.  I don't think you can prove this; I think he is going to walk due to being overcharged.  They should have kept it at 3rd degree. 

I also don't think they will be able to get convictions of the other cops. 

It's going to be another disgrace due to some DA trying to forward his career by going for the higher goal post but ultimately missing it. 

[HSakols]

what do you expect, it's in their DNA as a party. 

Bagpipes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Stop this nonsense. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwLaDzKFiBY

[Jeremy Roussak]

It's times like this that make me happy that I didn't add Joe to an "ignore" list. It would have been a shame to miss watching his pathetic wriggling as the Covid crisis brought the shaky beams of his adolescent libretard fantasies crashing down around his ears, and now the treat of seeing him pretend that "the Dems" (ooh!! scary!!) and not Trump's infantile response to a grotesque civil rights violation are somehow to blame for the anger seen across the country.  Priceless.

I've made it crystal clear that political comments relating to the virus are confined to the playpen. Offenders will be banned, after at most one warning. Don't do it again.

Jeremy

[Jeremy Roussak]

If you want your views on racism to be taken seriously, probably best to avoid using a racist trope in your opening sentence.

The description "Chinese virus" is no more 'racist' than Spanish 'flu, Hong Kong flu or Bornholm disease.

Jeremy

[John Camp]

I think all us of (I hope) are agreement with this.

What I find troubling now though is the DA is increasing the charge to 2nd degree murder, which requires malice and that he intentionally wanted to kill him, purely due to political reasons.  I don't think you can prove this; I think he is going to walk due to being overcharged.  They should have kept it at 3rd degree. 

I also don't think they will be able to get convictions of the other cops.

A legal analyst on one of the cable channels last night said that Minnesota's third degree murder charge is weird (for reasons I didn't understand) and wasn't appropriate for this case, because the prosecution would have to prove something about somebody's state of mind that is almost unprovable; therefore, the charge is rarely used. I tend to agree that he may be overcharged and could walk on that. I think perhaps manslaughter is more appropriate, but politically, he almost had to be charged with something that had "murder" in the title, if only to help quiet the public protests. If the cop walks, there'll probably be more riots, but I think it's a possibility. The medical examiner's report said that Floyd had "recently" used methamphetamine and fentanyl, was overweight, and had a heart condition and the cause of his death wasn't asphyxiation or "brain death," but heart failure to which the cop's restraint probably contributed. But to convict the cop, I think you'd have to prove that he knew that Floyd had recently used dangerous drugs and had a heart condition. That whole thing about kneeling on his neck and choking him seems to be going away, replaced by the heart failure diagnosis.

I will be very interested in seeing how the legal defense handles this case, especially the jury. If I were them, I'd make sure there were plenty of black people on it, and if I were the prosecution, I'd make sure there were plenty of "lesser-included" charges.

[faberryman]

What I find troubling now though is the DA is increasing the charge to 2nd degree murder, which requires malice and that he intentionally wanted to kill him, purely due to political reasons.  I don't think you can prove this; I think he is going to walk due to being overcharged.  They should have kept it at 3rd degree. 

There is a lesser included charge of second degree manslaughter which does not require proof of intent.

[JoeKitchen]

A legal analyst on one of the cable channels last night said that Minnesota's third degree murder charge is weird (for reasons I didn't understand) and wasn't appropriate for this case, because the prosecution would have to prove something about somebody's state of mind that is almost unprovable; therefore, the charge is rarely used. I tend to agree that he may be overcharged and could walk on that. I think perhaps manslaughter is more appropriate, but politically, he almost had to be charged with something that had "murder" in the title, if only to help quiet the public protests. If the cop walks, there'll probably be more riots, but I think it's a possibility. The medical examiner's report said that Floyd had "recently" used methamphetamine and fentanyl, was overweight, and had a heart condition and the cause of his death wasn't asphyxiation or "brain death," but heart failure to which the cop's restraint probably contributed. But to convict the cop, I think you'd have to prove that he knew that Floyd had recently used dangerous drugs and had a heart condition. That whole thing about kneeling on his neck and choking him seems to be going away, replaced by the heart failure diagnosis.

I will be very interested in seeing how the legal defense handles this case, especially the jury. If I were them, I'd make sure there were plenty of black people on it, and if I were the prosecution, I'd make sure there were plenty of "lesser-included" charges.

Thanks for the comment on the 3rd degree murder charge.  I am not a lawyer (obviously) and really am only familiar with my state, which has 3rd degree too. 

Can you add a charge of manslaughter too with the murder charge?  I feel that is the only way to get a conviction without causing another riot, albeit many on the left will still be disappointed. 

I also think, politically it is inevedable for a Federal civil right violation charge to be brought up.  Albeit, that seems nearly impossible to prove in this case. 

[John Camp]

John, you claim that, but none of the examples you quoted have anything to do with the system, but with ordinary racism, or just human nature.

I didn't respond to this earlier because I didn't see it. When you said "systemic racism" I thought you meant racism in the "body politic" -- defined  as "the people of a nation, state, or society considered collectively as an organized group of citizens." What you apparently meant was what? Official, government-supported racism? We do still have some of that, which is the reason the Georgia jogger murder wasn't even charged for weeks by local authorities, when it was clearly a murder and immediately tabbed as such when taken to a higher, more visible level of government.

[JoeKitchen]

I didn't respond to this earlier because I didn't see it. When you said "systemic racism" I thought you meant racism in the "body politic" -- defined  as "the people of a nation, state, or society considered collectively as an organized group of citizens." What you apparently meant was what? Official, government-supported racism? We do still have some of that, which is the reason the Georgia jogger murder wasn't even charged for weeks by local authorities, when it was clearly a murder and immediately tabbed as such when taken to a higher, more visible level of government.

Once again, show us the proof it was racist?  There are two parts of this, the murder and the fact they did not get charged. 

In the former, I feel it is probably a combination of racism and vigilantism, but still no evidence has come forth on this.  It was certainly, partly, vigilantism though. 

On the latter, I feel it was more the effect of the "old boys club," no racism.  One of the three was a former investigator and knew the entire police department and DA office.  They were probably more inclined to believe his version of events just due to the fact they knew him personally. 

[Alan Goldhammer]

The Dems were against ending slavery.  It was Lincoln, a republican, that ended it. 

Most KKK members were Dems.  FDR even wrote about how he wanted to advance race relations but could not due to his Southern party members that were racists. 

Jim Crow was forwarded and supported by the Dems.  The Republicans started to bring down the racism in the South.  EIK even used the Insurrection Act to send the military against the wishes of the Democratic governor of Alabama so those three college students could go to class. 

Here's the thing.  It is people like you who insist on calling/implying Republicans racists just for policy disagreements, and I've had enough of it.  You're even doing it now, albeit in a subtle way.  So,  if you want to continue it, lets talk about the history of the Democratic party.  You'll find many more example of pure racism in it then the Republican.

Your reading of history is quite poor.  Jim Crow was a Southern Democrat creation and in no way linked to the larger Democratic part elsewhere in the country.  All the descendants of those Southern Democrats are now Republicans who moved away following the 1964 Civil Rights Laws.  You would do well to read Jill Lepore's very fine history of the United States, "These Truths: A History of the United States."

[faberryman]

On the latter, I feel it was more the effect of the "old boys club," no racism.  One of the three was a former investigator and knew the entire police department and DA office.  They were probably more inclined to believe his version of events just due to the fact they knew him personally.

Do you mean the "old white boys club" I am pretty sure that if a retired black cop and his son shot dead a white man jogging through their neighborhood, the response would have been different. By the way, I just read that after they shot him, they ran over him with a truck.

[John Camp]

By the way, one thing I'm curious about is when the Floyd case will go to trial. Under Minnesota law, if you demand a speedy trial, you must be tried within 60 days. Otherwise, you must be tried within 120 days of pleading "not guilty." 120 days is four months, which would put it at the end of September, just in time to potentially have riots before the election. I can't figure out who'd want that -- law and order Republicans, or Democrats trying to energize the anti-Trump vote. But do they really want to have a trial in the middle of what looks like it's going to be a hot, politically crazy summer?

I wonder if it's possible that the prosecutors and the defense might have a quiet word about it, that the defense ask for a series of delays that push the trial past the election, and in return, the prosecution accepts some kind of low-level manslaughter conviction and short prison sentence? Don't call me cynical, but I'm cynical.

It's gonna be interesting.

[elliot_n]

On the latter, I feel it was more the effect of the "old boys club," no racism.  One of the three was a former investigator and knew the entire police department and DA office.  They were probably more inclined to believe his version of events just due to the fact they knew him personally. 

Er, that's exactly what systemic racism is.

[elliot_n]

I do not believe if the jogger was white, the response of the DA would have been different.

If the jogger was white he wouldn't have been dead.

[James Clark]

If the jogger was white he wouldn't have been dead.

/thread