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Author Topic: The Myth of Systemic Racism  (Read 4362 times)

John Camp

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Re: The Myth of Systemic Racism
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2020, 05:37:34 pm »

We have systemic racism in the US. You have to be blind not to see it. It's not as bad here as it is in many countries, and we don't have the serious levels of anti-Semitism that you see in Europe (can you say 'Jeremy Corbyn'?), but, it's still here. How bad? Not bad enough that mixed-race couples, black men and white women, don't feel free to go anywhere together, including the deep south, although they might want to stay away from redneck bars. Racist violence is mostly confined to crazy rednecks and white supremacists who are perhaps a fraction of 1% of the white population. A much higher proportion of the white population would feel uneasy socializing with blacks, but I don't know how many that would be. 30%? 50%? More? That uneasiness is certainly present.

But -- while the media presents what we are seeing in these riots as a reaction to racism, I don't really see it that way. What I see is a cop-black problem. In one of the most violent riots in the past few years, in Baltimore, everyone involved in the arrest and death of a black man, and the subsequent prosecution of the arrested officers, was black. They were acquitted by a mostly black jury. That's not racism, but it is a serious cop-on-black problem.

There's also a tribal aspect to all of this. Again, not as bad here as in other countries. (An Arab once asked, "How can we be anti-Semites? We ARE Semites." The problem in the Arab-Israel clash is tribal, not racial -- the Jews are a despised tribe of Semites.) And we have tribes in the US, although they are fading. At one time, a marriage between an Italian-American and an Irish-American was considered a disgrace by both nationalities. No more. We have gay tribes, and criminal tribes, and sports tribes, where the interests of ordinary people easily cross racial lines.

I was once a reporter in Minneapolis, which is a very liberal city in the Scandinavian mold, but also in Miami. In Miami, the tribes were intense. There was a Cuban tribe, for example. A guy who was absolutely black, but Cuban, would reject the black label, because that grouped him with American blacks. He would insist that his race was "Cuban" which was all right with most Cubans. A lot of Cubans rejected the labeled 'Hispanic,' because that grouped them with Mexicans who they regarded as lower-class stoop labor. Haitians were Haitian, not black, though to look at one, you'd swear that he/she was black. Some Jews referred to non-Jews as gentiles, but among the reasonably large Miami Morman community, Jews *are* gentiles. People born in Mexico usually carry a large Native American gene load ("Indio" in Mexico), but most reject that label -- they're 'Spanish' or 'Hispanic' but mostly "white" so the census has had to invent new categories like "Non-Hispanic White," because Spaniards are white, and therefore, so are Mexicans, even though they may look like Mayans. When we wanted to refer to the separate communities of Jews and non-Jewish whites, we occasionally would refer to Anglos. All those good Anglos like Italians, Greeks, and Russians.

The fact is, in the US, race and nationality labels don't mean much anymore. They don't make sense. I suspect when we're groping around for what to call people involved in things like these current riots, we should refer to "ghettoists." People who live in lower-class ghettos, and who may be of any race, or mixed-race. Racial labels sure don't refer much to dark-skinned guys who live out in the suburbs, and wax their Corvette and play golf every Sunday.

 
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The Myth of Systemic Racism
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2020, 06:32:11 pm »

We have systemic racism in the US...

John, you claim that, but none of the examples you quoted have anything to do with the system, but with ordinary racism, or just human nature.

faberryman

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Re: The Myth of Systemic Racism
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2020, 06:46:30 pm »

Part of the problem perhaps is that the tread is titled "The Myth of Systematic Racism", and the title of the link in the first post is "The Myth of Systematic Police Racism", so it is unclear what the topic is.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The Myth of Systemic Racism
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2020, 07:11:08 pm »

Part of the problem perhaps is that the tread is titled "The Myth of Systematic Racism", and the title of the link in the first post is "The Myth of Systematic Police Racism", so it is unclear what the topic is.

Given the "Myth" qualifier, isn't the topic the denial of systemic Racism (all sorts)?
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RSL

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Re: The Myth of Systemic Racism
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2020, 07:38:46 pm »

There's a fascinating article in today's Wall Street Journal that pretty thoroughly debunks the whole idea of systemic racism.
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David Sutton

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Re: The Myth of Systemic Racism
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2020, 09:00:29 pm »

It's hard to know what's really happening over there, being such a weird country.
Today I saw this 1994 quote from John Ehrlichman, former Nixon aide:
“The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I’m saying? We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did.”
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Chris Kern

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Re: The Myth of Systemic Racism
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2020, 09:29:51 pm »

It's hard to know what's really happening over there, being such a weird country.
Today I saw this 1994 quote from John Ehrlichman, former Nixon aide . . . .

Ehrlichman was convicted of engaging in several Watergate-related federal felonies, served 18 months in prison, and was disbarred from the practice of law.

I covered Watergate as a news reporter and therefore got to know him slightly.  Actually, he didn't strike me as an unpleasant person in his interactions with the press.  I'm not certain to what extent the attitudes he expressed represented what he really believed or whether he was just trying to act like a tough guy among his colleagues.  I had a very different opinion of his close associate in the Nixon White House, chief-of-staff H.R. Haldeman, who also served time for Watergate-related crimes.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 09:58:47 pm by Chris Kern »
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texshooter

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Re: The Myth of Systemic Racism
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2020, 02:40:28 am »

Just that stop & frisk policy and car searches act as a deterrent of crime.

Except looting.
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William Walker

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Re: The Myth of Systemic Racism
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2020, 04:55:49 am »

In order not to derail the already outdated thread on the Chinese virus, i am starting the much more interesting, more contemporary one on the riots and looting.

The same guys who are currently engaged in violence and criminal behavior are apparently protesting against being stereotyped for violence and criminal behavior. You can't make this stuff up.

The Myth of Systemic Police Racism

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myth-of-systemic-police-racism-11591119883?fbclid=IwAR2WHH-XRXHspvqV_doNUv7Tai68Eo6jfO70LTFvgEwt_pQ--XOtxkvE61I

The Myth of This Thread

Prove to me that the same folks who are protesting peacefully are also looting.

What I am quite happy to accept is that criminals see this as a wonderful opportunity to be taken advantage of - in the same way that cynical folks like you use  the same opportunity to to further your decisive, bullshit, hateful politics.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2020, 06:04:05 am by William Walker »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The Myth of Systemic Racism
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2020, 06:08:00 am »

...Prove to me that the folks who are protesting peacefully are looting...

Nothing to prove, as I didn’t say that.

I said they are both black, protesting against the treatment of blacks in general.

Alan Klein

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Re: The Myth of Systemic Racism
« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2020, 07:26:56 am »

Tribal identification does encourage people to look at other groups negatively.  People don't like Blacks, Jews, Italians, Irish, Southerners, Yankees, Mormons, Muslims, etc.  President Kennedy had to prove to the country that he could be a good president even though he was a Catholic.  He become the first Catholic in 180 years to be elected president.  We got past that point as we did electing a Black as president with Obama, twice. America is a nation of outsiders, of immigrants in one form or another.  So most of us know what that's about.  We are big enough so that whoever you are there are some people who will not like you but there are more willing to give you a hand up.  No one is held back in America if you're willing to work to get ahead. 

The main problem of poverty and crime I believe is the breakup of the American family.  Without strong parental leadership especially from a father (figure), boys especially go astray.  They get in trouble, skip school, and become burdens to society.  They have lives full of problems they bring onto themselves.  Government welfare and social programs that encourage out of wedlock children are a big cause of this situation. 

Rob C

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Re: The Myth of Systemic Racism
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2020, 07:45:54 am »

I have never held much faith in statistics.

According to statistics, I should have gone out of business within six months of hanging out my shingle as a snapper. According to statistics, the number of people who died of Covid-19 on any single day in Britain (and probably elsewhere too) varies depending on who offers them. Some include only deaths in hospitals, some add in the numbers that they get from care-homes, some add different sets of dead or exclude those who had it but also also died with other existing causes and I'm sure others do that and add in or subtract a factor to compensate for either politics or random chance.

The truth is that statistics are the items most prone to massage, especially where governmental reputations hang somewhere in the balance - or not. Most of us can only go so far in pursuing personal research: after that, we end up against red tape and "You are not permitted access" notices.

Frankly; I would be most surprised if governments themselves had really reliable figures on anything: they have never even been able to do the simple artithmetic of adding up the number of visitors coming into Britain, those leaving again and the number who just vanish into their relevant diaspora, never to be counted either in or out again.

You don't have to be criminals, either, just too lazy to act in your own interests: when Brexit landed through the proverbial letterbox here in the little island of Mallorca, out of the wainscoting leaped dozens and dozens of expats who had never bothered either to register for the Spanish Health Services nor anything else. Many of us lived like that in the 80s and long before, simply because the European connection didn't apply. We became semi-permanent tourists, and you could even buy a house and a car on that status; with the cars (and boats too, I think) you got a different kind of number plate with a little red dash on it. That saved you about 40% in taxes, and sold a helluva a lot of cars to foreigners. As long as you could prove - if challenged - to have remained in the country no more than three months at one time - you were in heaven. All it took was an airline ticket stub and/or a stamped passport. It suited everybody. However, that ended years ago, and life changed, largely for the better, because you got all the legal benefits you didn't before, even if you did have to pay full ticket for your wheels. If you could prove a steady income, a pension, for example, that, too, allowed you to live here permanently, legally.

As I say, statistics are, at best, educated guesses.

I would hate to be responsible for immigration statistic anywhere just north of the Rio Grande! And I bet it suits a helluva lot of white business to keep it that way too!

JoeKitchen

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Re: The Myth of Systemic Racism
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2020, 07:59:34 am »

The Myth of This Thread

Prove to me that the same folks who are protesting peacefully are also looting.

What I am quite happy to accept is that criminals see this as a wonderful opportunity to be taken advantage of - in the same way that cynical folks like you use  the same opportunity to to further your decisive, bullshit, hateful politics.

Nobody is making this point except for the media, largely to try and discredit any criticism and/or get ratings.  In my opinion, there are three groups, the protester, the anarchists, and the opportunists. 

The protesters start protesting peacefully, which stays like that while it is still light outside.  I fully support this as completely American.  Then, as it gets dark and harder to identify people, the anarchists slip into the protests to start causing trouble.  Many of the protesters are calling out these people, but the media is largely not reporting this; you have to look up videos on Youtube to see this.  So, the anarchists start destroying property and causing riots, and soon after the opportunists come to start looting.  Considering many of these "opportunists" have been locked inside there homes for 70+ days without generating income, the temptation is too strong to steal so as to make money.  (A problem created by the extended lock downs.  Sure, there would have been opportunists without a lock down, but the lock downs generated many more.) 

Then media move in, and with the mantra of "if it bleeds, it leads" they focus on the rioting and looting.  This, however creates a problem for them and many Dems.  The peaceful protest are certainly the main show, and should be, but no one is really showing that since it would not produce the same ratings.  So the media and Dems need to defend the protests but without condemning the riots since this would be seen as a critique of the protests by the protesters, their voters.  However, for the middle of the country, this is making them look like they are supporting the riots. 

There have even been opinion pieces written about how the media is becoming part of the problem by focusing too much on the riots and not enough on the protests. 
« Last Edit: June 04, 2020, 07:53:13 pm by JoeKitchen »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: The Myth of Systemic Racism
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2020, 08:09:17 am »

Tribal identification does encourage people to look at other groups negatively.  People don't like Blacks, Jews, Italians, Irish, Southerners, Yankees, Mormons, Muslims, etc.  President Kennedy had to prove to the country that he could be a good president even though he was a Catholic.  He become the first Catholic in 180 years to be elected president.  We got past that point as we did electing a Black as president with Obama, twice. America is a nation of outsiders, of immigrants in one form or another.  So most of us know what that's about.  We are big enough so that whoever you are there are some people who will not like you but there are more willing to give you a hand up.  No one is held back in America if you're willing to work to get ahead. 

The main problem of poverty and crime I believe is the breakup of the American family.  Without strong parental leadership especially from a father (figure), boys especially go astray.  They get in trouble, skip school, and become burdens to society.  They have lives full of problems they bring onto themselves.  Government welfare and social programs that encourage out of wedlock children are a big cause of this situation.

First, I feel that your last point that welfare encourages out of wedlock children is false.  I do not feel it encourages out of wedlock children, after all many couples end up in that situation.  I also feel that we should not come down hard on single mothers either over this.  But what it does do is allow the man to walk away more easily since he knows the government will support his child for him.  Add to that cultural break down and you have a recipe for fatherless children. 

Although I have issue with criticizing single mothers, I have no issue with coming down hard on fathers who walk away!  We need to return to a culture of shaming those men who do this. 

Getting back to your first point, the Dems, with their intersectional politics, are the ones pushing tribal identification and that the foundation of America was built against minorities just to get votes.  I find this very dangerous.  As I pointed out in the other thread, the end logical solution to this problem is not change, but burning the country done and starting over. 

The Dems are playing with fire, risking the destruction of the country, whether they know it or not, just to get votes.  This is one of the main reasons I cant support them until they stop it with this dangerous politics.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2020, 08:13:00 am by JoeKitchen »
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HSakols

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Re: The Myth of Systemic Racism
« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2020, 09:27:35 am »

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faberryman

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Re: The Myth of Systemic Racism
« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2020, 09:33:59 am »

Nothing to prove, as I didn’t say that.

I said they are both black, protesting against the treatment of blacks in general.
Do you have television there in Belgrade?
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HSakols

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Re: The Myth of Systemic Racism
« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2020, 09:44:40 am »

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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The Myth of Systemic Racism
« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2020, 09:46:42 am »

Do you have television there in Belgrade?

No, we are still using telegraph.

faberryman

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Re: The Myth of Systemic Racism
« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2020, 09:48:32 am »

No, we are still using telegraph.
That explains why you don't see all those white people, predominately young, at the protests.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The Myth of Systemic Racism
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2020, 09:50:55 am »

That explains why you don't see all those white people, predominately young, at the protests.

Who says I do not?
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