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Author Topic: Hasselblad remembered they made the H platform...  (Read 2963 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Hasselblad remembered they made the H platform...
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2020, 08:21:22 pm »

Itís pretty simple really. DJI bought Hasselblad for the brand and possibly some bits of technical expertise.

What is simply happening is that the Hasselblad mgt team has not been able to convince the Chinese boss that investing any more money in a large camera with a moving mirror makes any sense.

And I donít think that they existing user base sugar coating the reality of our overall dissatisfaction helps them in any way changing this sad situation.

The reality is that the tiny revenue they may still be generating with the H platform will very soon be zero if they donít invest in it significantly and communicate about this investment.

They have some great assets, a user base that likes the H so I believe that there is some potential to change the game again but teling them everything is fine today isnít helping.

What the H platform needs IMHO is:
- a back based on the 150mp sensor
- a couple of new mirrorless friendly lenses, starting with a portrait lens to replace the 100mm f2.2 and a modern 35mm
- as an option a mirrorless viewfinder with an AF compatible with the new lenses
- a couple of key modern features such as AWB, DoF stacking,...

Itís a moderate investment, they have all the technological building blocks already in house.

Cheers,
Bernard

Joe Towner

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Re: Hasselblad remembered they made the H platform...
« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2020, 10:28:01 am »

Yep, that's pretty much it Bernard. Lots of possibilities with building blocks in house, but a long term lack of action.

I love shooting with my H, but I can't tell someone that investing $33k in a H6D is a good decision.

-Joe
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TechTalk

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Re: Hasselblad remembered they made the H platform...
« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2020, 04:46:34 pm »

Itís pretty simple really. DJI bought Hasselblad for the brand and possibly some bits of technical expertise.

Well, that's stated as if it's a simple fact. Stated with the pretense that you have some special insight into the strategic thinking of the DJI management team which I don't see any evidence of you possessing. Could this be the product of a narrow self-absorbed viewpoint that projects doom, gloom, and sadness when someone's expectations and priorities are not being catered to with the expedience to which they feel entitled and which factors in no accounting of any other needs or priorities outside of their own? I suppose it could.

It doesn't occur to you that DJI makes more than consumer drone products; that in fact, they have a separate industrial enterprise division that uses large drones in a vast array of applications that include the fields of energy, construction, forestry, agriculture, mapping, and photogrammetric surveying among others. It doesn't occur to you that DJI may have seen more in Hasselblad than a "brand" or maybe just "possibly some bits of technical expertise"; but that beyond those things, they may have seen an existing level of cameras, lenses, and image quality, that they didn't posses and an imaging platform that could be readily incorporated into that part of their business, instead of just building large aerial platforms to fly other third party cameras for those applications. You may have noticed that businesses will often acquire a company that has products, capabilities, and expertise they desire, but which they don't currently have in-house, as a cost effective way of obtaining those. While DJI has experience in building aerial cameras with small sensors, they didn't have any expertise in building large sensor aerial camera systems for industrial applications; but they do now.

Then again, that wouldn't be likely to enter into your imagining of DJI's motives because it doesn't fit the "sad" narrative you wish to project. Nah, all DJI was looking for was a "brand" and "some bits" from your sad viewpoint. Why? Because it has nothing to do with what you want to do and you seem to have some difficulty seeing beyond what you want. Better to portray things in the most diminished and negative light possible when that's where you're coming from; isn't it?

Now, I don't have any better knowledge of the motives or thinking DJI may have in investing in Hasselblad than you do. And, I've never flown a drone. But, I am capable of at least looking beyond my own small world of interests. At least, I try to. Here are some examples of applications I think DJI may have had an interest in when considering their investment.

https://www.provideocoalition.com/hasselblad-a6d-sync-8-100-megapixel-aerial-cameras/

LiDAR Power Line Inspections with Hasselblad A6D

https://www.hasselblad.com/news/ats-advances-3d-city-modeling-with-the-a6d/

https://www.hasselblad.com/news/in-the-sky-with-z-air/

https://www.hasselblad.com/news/inspecting-power-lines-with-aerolaser-and-the-a6d/

https://www.hasselblad.com/a6d-100c-dji-m600-pro/
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 11:17:28 pm by TechTalk »
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pschefz

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Re: Hasselblad remembered they made the H platform...
« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2020, 08:46:03 pm »

Dji just lost a patent case in the US vs autel there is a chance they canít sell any more drones in the US...I doubt that will actually happen but who knows...
I just bought a X1DII with 3 lenses because I think the system provides the best color and files for me right now as well as really forward looking iPad integration....for now that part is more of a promise but at least they are trying....
I still think Sony makes the best bang for the buck overall cameras...and lenses now as well....and obviously sensors...
I think the phase XT is a great and interesting camera with the ultimate IQ right now....
the XF, just like the H system is a really, really, really tough sell....the IQ is there but the GFX or XD is in the same ball park....the top line mirror less arenít far behind and so so so much friendlier to work with...
I actually think the H MS might be the better choice right now if you are looking for reproduction....and it is cheaper...I have no clue who would buy a XF right now....if you want ultimate landscape or architecture, the XT is the better system but itís just crazy money....
phase is IMO a software company at this point and hasselblad has a real chance to compete with leica and fuji (for different reasons of course) for a strange segment of the market slightly above top of the line specs of mirrorless and object of want/desire/.....
the H system is just as dead as the XF and DSLR...
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TechTalk

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Re: Hasselblad remembered they made the H platform...
« Reply #44 on: May 23, 2020, 09:58:49 pm »

What is simply happening is that the Hasselblad mgt team has not been able to convince the Chinese boss that investing any more money in a large camera with a moving mirror makes any sense.

Given the insight which you've applied to the motivations that DJI has for investing in Hasselblad, you're now going to assert that you have information to share as to the budget discussions between Hasselblad and DJI for future product development? Why? Planning meetings, budgeting conferences, and discussions projecting future roadmaps for products are normally outside the area of public knowledge.

I'm not going to say that you may not be eventually proven correct in your assumptions; mainly because I don't have any interest in speculating or making predictions. I've been surprised too many times by new products and I'm too busy using what's currently available to care very much. Besides, I don't know your track record of predictions.

Perhaps you could show us that you predicted the new user interface, electronics upgrade, and faster shutter speeds that we saw in the H6D. Maybe you predicted that they would bring out an entirely new line of mirrorless products shortly afterwards. Maybe the 907X and CFV II were on your radar before the rest of us heard about it. I don't know and don't want to take the time to look, but it would be interesting if you did.

Now, if I did want to make predictions or speculate (I don't, but I'll make a momentary exception), I suppose that I would examine what's occurred in the market in recent years. I'd start with facts; as I'm partial to facts as opposed to idle speculation in things I have no way of knowing.

What we know is that the camera market, as a whole, has been in steady decline for a number of years in both units sold as well as revenue. This is due to compact cameras largely being replaced by consumers using their phones for picture taking. What remains of the market are mostly serious amateurs and professionals for whom a phone is not adequate. What's more relevant to our consideration here is that there has been an a major shift in preference of that remaining market for smaller and lighter mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras (MILC) over DSLR models. DSLR sales have been in steep decline for some time.

The medium format market is not immune to those trends or the pressure of increasingly better full-frame 35mm cameras which now have resolution capable of meeting many needs which previously required medium format. The fact that Hasselblad made the move to mirrorless and has devoted their time and energy since then to improving their initial product, expanding their line of lenses for it, as well as developing a model (907X / CFV II 50c) that serves as a connecting point for all the V, H, and X products they have ever made is clearly the most logical move to have a sustainable future for any and all of their product lines. Had they not done so, it would have been detrimental to the future of the company and all those truly interested in seeing it continue. Having a "flagship" doesn't matter very much if it and the rest of the fleet that support it are sinking!

Like most newborns, the X system has required a lot of attention to its development to insure that it's able to thrive and have a positive future. Has the attention for new lens development, hardware and firmware improvements, and new and upgraded models been laser focused for the past few years on the new kid? Of course it has! Thankfully, because everything else is depending on it continuing to grow. The older sibling got bigger (more megapixels) a couple of years ago, thanks to a new multi-shot addition. But yeah, the attention has definitely been on the new kid in order to keep the whole family succeeding. (Please indulge the family analogy. Hasselblad doesn't make just one camera or just one type of camera; it is a whole family of related cameras. Even the old grandparent V system is getting a little love these days.)

Based on those facts, my perception is the longevity of the "H" series depends largely on a healthy company being sustained into the future with profits from the mirrorless products and my perception that DJI has an interest in larger higher resolution sensors (and thus the backs, lenses, and cameras they're derived from) for their industrial aerial product solutions. But that's just my speculation. I don't have a clue what the future holds. Only Hasselblad and DJI know that. Except of course for those that have already pronounced death based on the lack of fullfilment of their particular desires and resentment for all the attention that the new sibling has received for it's first few years of life.

* I hope that wasn't too sugar coated for you.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2020, 03:02:47 am by TechTalk »
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TechTalk

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Re: Hasselblad remembered they made the H platform...
« Reply #45 on: May 24, 2020, 02:28:41 am »

As a H6D-100c user, my view is:
- great colors and image quality
- best MF body UI on the market (physical and touch screen)...

Iíll say it like it is, I am deeply dissatisfied with Hasselblad and would actively recommend against buying in the H platform

Cheers,
Bernard
I love shooting with my H, but I can't tell someone that investing $33k in a H6D is a good decision.

-Joe

I have a great deal of difficulty reconciling statements like this in my mind. "I get great color and image quality along with best MF body UI on the market (physical and touch screen)"... and "I am deeply dissatisfied". Or... "I love shooting with my H, but I can't tell someone that investing $33k in a H6D is a good decision." Maybe it's just the way my mind works, but it's puzzling to me.

Also, I hope that I'd never be presumptuous enough to tell someone else what camera they should or should not buy. If asked, I might help organize someone's thoughts by suggesting they consider their priorities and deciding which are most important to them based on their usage and budget. But that's about it. There are just too many variables in individuals and their wants, needs, preferences, types of subjects, shooting styles, and much more. Certainly any of the medium format cameras available today could be an excellent choice, depending on the person and the purpose.

I would suggest that once they have their preferences and needs prioritized, that they make sure all of the features that are important to them are fully enabled before they commit to buying. You never know how long a feature to be enabled at a later date is going to be. Then test it thoroughly to make sure that they understand exactly what they're getting before buying. To avoid disappointment, don't assume anything! This, I believe, would be the most mature and reasonable approach.

And I donít think that they existing user base sugar coating the reality of our overall dissatisfaction helps them in any way changing this sad situation.

I don't think that a reasonable person would consider correcting misstatements of fact or misleading innuendo or false presumptions as "sugar coating". I'm reasonably sure that looking back on where digital imaging has come from and where we find ourselves today, with the great tools at our disposal, without feeling sad about what the future may hold, would be considered too much sugar coating either.

And I'm not sure that stating the facts about features unique to the Hasselblad H system like: multi-shot, having a film option, 4K RAW large sensor video, multiple camera platforms for H lenses (Leica S, X1D/X1D II, 907X, H Body, Fuji GFX, Alpa), Hasselblad color science, HTS 1.5 Tilt/Shit Adapter, and offering the widest range of focal lengths available, are excessively sugar coated. Some or all of those things may be of no importance to you, they might be quite important to someone else.

But, if what you consider to be sugar coating is enjoying what is available now without worrying too much over a future that I have no control over... Well, cover me in sugar 'til the flys come buzzing around! I'll take current enjoyment from what is available now and you can have all the worry and sadness over what you don't have.

And it probably goes without saying at this point, but when you say "our" "overall dissatisfaction", please don't include me. There may be others that wish to be excluded from that group as well. If so, they can join me in our land of sugar coated overall satisfaction.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2020, 03:28:24 pm by TechTalk »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Hasselblad remembered they made the H platform...
« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2020, 07:26:52 pm »

You may want to start by taking a deep(er) breath before posting.

I fail to see in what you write much but an acknowledgement that as of today, based on the facts we both seem to like, Hasselblad isnít showing us any sign contradicting the fact that the H platform has been on a standstill for years, nor any sign that it is going to change moving forward.

Contradiction btwn ďbest UIĒ and deep dissatisfaction? Not at all.

Best UI simply means better than the XF in the tiny largest MF sensor arena. Itís not any close in terms of usability to what other very high image quality options offer, such as the GFX100. There are still many things to like in the H platform. Great leaf shutters, nice touch UI,... so I am far from throwing the baby with the water. I am absolutely not a Hasselblad basher contrary to what you imply.

I believe you keep sugar coating it because you fail to acknowledge the real issues with the way Hasselblad has been letting the H platform die a slow death.

On the other hand I believe that I, as an owner, acknowledges the positive stuff as well as the issues. I find this an objective approach. Sorry if you see it as sad and gloomy. Facts can be painful when you start with a pre-conceived idea about what they should be.

DJI motivation? You are right, I am just guessing. A couple of questions for you:
- I would love facts to tell me wrong. Do you know what % of revenue DJI is generating with their pro division vs their consumer one?
- Has DJI used the Hasselblad logo on some consumer products?
- is there a real benefit for pro users of the integration between the DJI pro drones and the H6D-100c/other Hassy aerial cameras?
- What is the value vs fitting an XF/other P1 aerial cameras under a drone?

You may be right that the focus of DJI/Hasselblad moving forward is going to be pro dones. But that was not the direction when I, and most other H6D-100c buyers, bought into the H platform. Was it?

Finally I totally agree that the X1D was a great move, but it should not have been made at the cost of the H platform. Were DJI really willing to support the activities of Hasselblad as you seem to be guessing, they could easily have invested the amount needed to sustain both platforms. Especially knowing that they could have kept the H alive with a very limited level of investment.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: May 24, 2020, 07:49:00 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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FranciscoDisilvestro

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Re: Hasselblad remembered they made the H platform...
« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2020, 07:49:51 pm »


- Has DJI used the Hasselblad logo on some consumer products?


Well, that's an easy one: The Mavic Pro 2

In any case, I don't see DJI developing a new "mirror" camera any time soon. The previously referenced A6D, even if it is based on the H hardware, does not have a mirror.

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Hasselblad remembered they made the H platform...
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2020, 08:05:08 pm »

Well, that's an easy one: The Mavic Pro 2

In any case, I don't see DJI developing a new "mirror" camera any time soon. The previously referenced A6D, even if it is based on the H hardware, does not have a mirror.

I know I own one... it was a rethorical question. :)

Cheers,
Bernard

Joe Towner

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Re: Hasselblad remembered they made the H platform...
« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2020, 08:22:26 pm »

I have a great deal of difficulty reconciling statements like this in my mind. "I get great color and image quality along with best MF body UI on the market (physical and touch screen)"... and "I am deeply dissatisfied". Or... "I love shooting with my H, but I can't tell someone that investing $33k in a H6D is a good decision." Maybe it's just the way my mind works, but it's puzzling to me.
........
And it probably goes without saying at this point, but when you say "our" "overall dissatisfaction", please don't include me. There may be others that wish to be excluded from that group as well. If so, they can join me in our land of sugar coated overall satisfaction.

It's actually really easy to understand the 'we love the product' but here are the faults.  Cameras are tools, and there are options. You pick a tool because it will produce what you need.  You contrast that with what other tools do better or worse than the tool you selected.  When a tool is as expensive as a digital medium format camera, you want to have faith that the investment you make can be built upon in the future. With the platform as it is, H shooters are reliant on Hasselblad to produce anything new for the platform.  Any new lenses, bodies or backs, we're fully tied in.  You have hitched your wagon to the H train, for better or worse.

Now the DJI connection is an easy one to point out some issues on.  If you want to say the A platform is all that, why hasn't Hass done lenses specifically for it?  They're using the same HC lenses we shoot with, and any weight savings there would be huge for the flight time & you can sell them to existing H users.  It's just a hard sell to say that the A platform is better than the PhaseOne iXM platform for drone work.  The iXM has the newer sensor, more frames per second, with purpose built lenses. 

Honestly I'd be super happy to hear that Hasselblad is doing both the 150mp and 100mp 33x44 in the A line - why wouldn't you use the industrial side to get the product out with higher margins first.  Show a path that has a future, not a repackaging of the existing tech with a new processor.

-Joe
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George_Cleansman

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Re: Hasselblad remembered they made the H platform...
« Reply #50 on: May 26, 2020, 12:50:39 pm »

Just 3 questions:

1. Is anybody nearly informed how big the market is for the 150 MP Medium Format back per year?

2. How many IQ4 150 MP backs has Phase One approximately sold worldwide until now?

3. Would it be financially interesting for Hasselblad to decrease the price for the 100 MP and the HC/HCD lenses to increase the sale numbers?

That are your opinions, please?  :)
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TechTalk

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Re: Hasselblad remembered they made the H platform...
« Reply #51 on: May 26, 2020, 05:59:58 pm »

You may want to start by taking a deep(er) breath before posting.

My breathing is fine. But, Thanks for your concern.

You might want to engage in better fact checking and less speculation presented as if they are facts before posting. But, it's just a suggestion and internet forums aren't a great place to obtain facts and avoid idle speculation. So you have plenty of company.

I fail to see in what you write much but an acknowledgement that as of today, based on the facts we both seem to like, Hasselblad isnít showing us any sign contradicting the fact that the H platform has been on a standstill for years, nor any sign that it is going to change moving forward.

Well, you're at at least half right. One of us likes facts.

As far as signs of life, this thread was started with a post based on false premises; one of which was that "Hasselblad remembered they made the H platform, But all we got was a new 920k dot screen". I corrected that false assertion (along with many others along the way) with the fact that the H6D display was always that resolution and there was not screen update, just few minor enhancements. If the H line is "dead", as you continually claim, why would they make any upgrades to the current line at all? Seems like a bit of a nuisance for Hasselblad to make those minor changes if there is no longer an interest in continuing the line. Why bother?

The fact that you and Joe continue to ignore is that both Phase One and Hasselblad introduced their newest models in 2018. Phase One with a 150 MP sensor and Hasselblad a new H6D 400 MP multi-shot model to replace the older H5D 200 MP multi-shot. Those of us that use multi-shot certainly appreciate the newest model, but since it isn't of interest to you; you simply ignore it as if it never happened. It doesn't count, as far as you're concerned, toward Hasselblad showing a commitment to the "H" line of cameras stemming from the fact, that while Hasselblad gave me exactly what I (and others) wanted and use regularly, it wasn't what you (and others) wanted.

Therefore, in your eyes, the whole line "has been at a standstill for years" and you "would actively recommend against buying in the H platform at this stage". You simply have zero interest in what might be the best choice for other photographers needs. If you don't get the 150 MP sensor that you want, then the entire "H" line of products is "dead" and it's a "sad" situation for everyone. Because you seem to believe that what you want must be what everyone wants. I'm not laboring under that delusion.

Besides, no manufacturer makes what everyone wants; It doesn't mean that an entire product line is dead as a result of that fact. And you may have noticed that new medium format models are measured in years between models

The medium format DSLR market has multiple players each looking to differentiate themselves. What NONE of the manufacturers have done is just try to compete by offering the same camera designs, features, and specs. So let's get some broader objective context to this discussion of what companies are doing to compete.

The market currently looks like this and I can see the appeal of each product line to individual photographers with differing wants, needs, and preferences:

- Pentax offers one 50 MP DSLR model announced in 2014 ($4,997) of excellent quality, a broad range of excellent lenses that includes seven zoom and two macro lenses at affordable prices compared to competitors. They offer great value for the money.

- Leica has one brand new 64 MP S3 model ($18,995) with a unique sensor and format of 30 x 45 mm. Excellent 35mm DSLR type design and handling and outstanding lenses with an adapter to mount Hasselblad H lenses. It has just arrived after being previewed by Leica in 2018, but offers those that prefer that system a major upgrade from the previous 37.5 MP model.

- Hasselblad offers 3 DSLR models based on their latest (2016) H6D which has a new user interface and overhauled electronics platform. 2 were announced in 2016: a 50 MP ($14,495) and 100 MP ($32,995). 1 model was announced in 2018 ($47,995) with three capture modes from 100 to 400 MP. A very broad range of excellent lenses and accessories including a unique tilt/shift adapter. All models can shoot film or digital. There is also an H6X model that accepts other manufacturer's digital backs, film backs, or serves as a 2nd camera body for film use or backup. There are also 2 unique 50 MP mirrorless models with their own range of lenses and the ability to mount "H" lenses via adapter.

- Phase One offers 3 DSLR models announced in 2018 based on an upgraded version of their original 2015 XF camera platform: a 100 MP ($47,990 kit with one prime lens), 150 MP ($51,990 kit with one prime lens), and 150 MP Achromatic ($54,990 kit with one prime lens). They also have an excellent lens line. The backs can also be mounted on their new XT technical camera which integrates back control of electronic shuttered lenses.

I can see that buying into and using any of these systems could provide satisfaction and great images for an individual photographer. It just depends on their priorities and preferences... and of course their budget. Then again, I'm not looking at it with blinders on regarding one system.

On the other hand I believe that I, as an owner, acknowledges the positive stuff as well as the issues. I find this an objective approach.

I think that Fuji is the only reasonable choice these days...

I think that we will have to leave it to the readers to decide which of us is objective and factual regarding: 1) the state of the medium format market, 2) Hasselblad and every other manufacturer's place in it, and 3) what photographers should consider buying.

Facts can be painful when you start with a pre-conceived idea about what they should be.

Yes. Yes they can be. Sorry if I've caused any pain by correcting factual errors.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 07:02:08 pm by TechTalk »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Hasselblad remembered they made the H platform...
« Reply #52 on: May 26, 2020, 06:55:18 pm »

The fact that you and Joe continue to ignore is that both Phase One and Hasselblad introduced their newest models in 2018. Phase One with a 150 MP sensor and Hasselblad a new H6D 400 MP multi-shot model to replace the older H5D 200 MP multi-shot. Those of us that use multi-shot certainly appreciate the newest model, but since it isn't of interest to you; you simply ignore it as if it never happened. It doesn't count, as far as you're concerned, toward Hasselblad showing a commitment to the "H" line of cameras stemming from the fact, that while Hasselblad gave me exactly what I (and others) wanted and use regularly, it wasn't what you (and others) wanted.

I welcome the release of the H6D 400mp. But what Hasselblad did is just update, I would argue with a 2 years delay, their historical line up. I find this to be a fairly minor release. The main change is a bit more resolution and I am unclear what real world value this has for the people who were already using a previous generation MS for the typical reproduction applications done on tripod at low ISO at a very slow pace anyway.

Therefore, in your eyes, the whole line "has been at a standstill for years" and you "would actively recommend against buying in the H platform at this stage". You simply have zero interest in what might be the best choice for other photographers needs. If you don't get the 150 MP sensor that you want, then the entire "H" line of products is "dead" and it's a "sad" situation for everyone. Because you seem to believe that what you want must be what everyone wants. I'm not laboring under that delusion. Besides, no manufacturer makes what everyone wants; It doesn't mean that an entire product line is dead as a result of that fact. And you may have noticed that new medium format models are measured in years between models

Among the items I suggested Hasselblad should improve the move to the 150mp sensor isn't important because of the increase of resolution that, I agree, is of secondary importance. The key value of the 150mp sensor is its better behavior on tech cameras.

But regardless, the change of sensor is just one of the suggestions I made, and probably the least critical one for the H system. The ability to focus accurately anywhere in the frame would be 10 order of magnitudes more important for the system. It would move it from a mid aperture/no subject movement/let's cross fingers it may be in critical focus tool to one usable in a much broader set of situations.

It's pretty clear by now that you prefer to focus on the few positive things Hasselblad has been doing and to ignore the elephant in the room, no issues with that.

Cheers,
Bernard

pschefz

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Re: Hasselblad remembered they made the H platform...
« Reply #53 on: May 26, 2020, 07:57:04 pm »


But regardless, the change of sensor is just one of the suggestions I made, and probably the least critical one for the H system. The ability to focus accurately anywhere in the frame would be 10 order of magnitudes more important for the system. It would move it from a mid aperture/no subject movement/let's cross fingers it may be in critical focus tool to one usable in a much broader set of situations.

I think that pretty much is the problem with all mirror based systems and the reason why there are only 2 bodies made at all today....and why even DSLRs are going away...
I just bought the X1DII which can focus faster then H or phase XF....and it generally gets killed for its AF performance....
I bought it because of IQ and color and because it still is way beyond any MF system i ever shot with in terms of speed and handling....but most people today donít remember and donít want to hassle and mostly also cant afford to hassle....people are more likely to hold still if they are shot with film these days.....my iPhone rarely misses focus....
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TechTalk

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Re: Hasselblad remembered they made the H platform...
« Reply #54 on: May 26, 2020, 09:23:46 pm »

I welcome the release of the H6D 400mp. But what Hasselblad did is just update, I would argue with a 2 years delay, their historical line up. I find this to be a fairly minor release. The main change is a bit more resolution and I am unclear what real world value this has for the people who were already using a previous generation MS for the typical reproduction applications done on tripod at low ISO at a very slow pace anyway.

It may seem a trivial engineering matter to you to move a sensor of that size by 2.3 microns with the precision with which Hasselblad does it. I can assure you it's not so trivial. If it were, It would have been released along with the H6D-100c. I mean, it's not like Hasselblad just didn't care about the extra $15,000 that they collect for the multi-shot version. This sensor is larger than any other they have ever utilized in a multi-shot configuration and to make it even more challenging, it's moving in the smallest increments they've ever done.

It isn't done thru camera firmware moving a floating 5-axis IBIS unit and using the electronic shutter in the sensor, the way smaller cameras accomplish this. Hasselblad uses a patented mechanism that has undergone multiple revisions over the years. It utilizes a hefty metal plate with microscopic tracks inside of which the sensor is moved by separate Piezo motors for each axis. It's done this way to ensure nanometer precision, retain perfect parallel alignment, and to compensate for any thermal fluctuations. They are individually calibrated and function reliably without loss of precision under continuous high volume shooting. It utilizes the lens shutter for each shot, so flash usage is not a problem.

It is controlled by the Phocus software, so it is always tethered. When triggered, there is a short delay while an internal calibration check is performed after which capture occurs. Each capture is checked in real time for exposure consistency and a warning appears if there is any issue. The results are well worth the small amount of added capture time.

I've done the comparisons many times with single-shot makes of every description. For shooting product in a commercial advertising environment the advantages of 4-shot are not hard to see. The elimination of any visible color moire or aliasing in any fabric, packaging, or text included in the shot means a few minutes of extra capture time saves a lot of time in post and editing. Plus, you deliver cleaner images, with less noise, and that look sharper. This means less cost downstream, delivering a better quality product, happier clients, and repeat business.

And if the client wants to pay extra for 6-shot resolution files that can be repurposed and resized for a variety of uses, sweet! Not many things that can be added to an invoice anymore and that is sad. And for doing art reproduction, nothing is better. As a quick exercise, check out side by side comparisons of single and multi-shot images from Pentax, Sony, Panasonic, and Olympus over at DP Review.

So, it may be "just" an "update" to you or "a fairly minor release" in your eyes. For my needs, it isn't so minor! It's a differentiator that makes better images and money! I do understand why you or anyone might want the 150 MP sensor, for their needs. Especially if you're using a tech cam where it significantly reduces the need for lens cast corrections. So, please stop minimizing and diminishing the value of tools that other people (like me) value and use everyday and the manufacturer's efforts in producing them for me. Thank you.

The "real world value" of the H6D-400c MS, for those of us that were using the H5D-200c MS, is: a larger sensor which provides a wider angle of view with wide-angle lenses, even better dynamic range, more resolution (2X the number of pixels = 40% more resolution), and all of the nice user interface improvements that come with the H6D which makes for a better experience when using the camera for more conventional single-shot shooting.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 10:20:17 pm by TechTalk »
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TechTalk

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Re: Hasselblad remembered they made the H platform...
« Reply #55 on: May 26, 2020, 09:37:38 pm »

The ability to focus accurately anywhere in the frame would be 10 order of magnitudes more important for the system. It would move it from a mid aperture/no subject movement/let's cross fingers it may be in critical focus tool to one usable in a much broader set of situations.

Well, now that's a whole new curve in the road we've been on! One that would require another lengthy essay; that you'll be happy to hear, I have no interest in pursuing right now as this is just getting really super tedious.

Suffice it to say, that this has been an issue for medium format DSLR cameras of all makes, all models, and every generation since the beginning of time. Mostly due to physical optical geometry constraints and most of all cost!

Hasselblad attempted to improve on the problem 10 years ago with True Focus and has improved on it since then. But there are no easy answers to be found here.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 09:47:38 pm by TechTalk »
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TechTalk

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Re: Hasselblad remembered they made the H platform...
« Reply #56 on: May 26, 2020, 09:57:44 pm »

It's pretty clear by now that you prefer to focus on the few positive things Hasselblad has been doing

It's shameful. I know. And you had to go and point it out in public! I am embarrassed!

and to ignore the elephant in the room, no issues with that.

Thank goodness. Now we can all get along!

In my own mind, what I try to focus on is getting the job done with what I have currently available and let the future take care of itself; as it will probably arrive full of surprises and sooner than I am ready for it!
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TechTalk

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Re: Hasselblad remembered they made the H platform...
« Reply #57 on: May 26, 2020, 10:05:12 pm »

Now the DJI connection is an easy one to point out some issues on.

Well. Knock yourself out and I hope that you get satisfaction from it.

I could care less. I know almost nothing about drones or DJI.

Have fun.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Hasselblad remembered they made the H platform...
« Reply #58 on: May 26, 2020, 11:07:23 pm »

Great, it seems that you have convinced yourself that you were right.

Cheers,
Bernard

Joe Towner

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Re: Hasselblad remembered they made the H platform...
« Reply #59 on: May 27, 2020, 12:41:57 pm »

Just 3 questions:

1. Is anybody nearly informed how big the market is for the 150 MP Medium Format back per year?

2. How many IQ4 150 MP backs has Phase One approximately sold worldwide until now?

3. Would it be financially interesting for Hasselblad to decrease the price for the 100 MP and the HC/HCD lenses to increase the sale numbers?

That are your opinions, please?  :)

Hey George,

1 & 2 don't matter as a number.  The 150mp is a sensor that has a few other huge upsides that would apply. It's a faster chip, and with BSI the pixel wells are shallower & the cross talk in a tech camera is greatly reduced.  50% more pixels is big for some folks, but it also allows for the camera to stand above the GFX 100 product.  The key thing in my mind is focusing on the competition with Phase on the top of the market, not pushing back at the mirrorless 100mp one (which it can't win).

3 is an easy no.  Playing the price game doesn't gain Hasselblad anything.  It would further depreciates the existing used market and cuts any profits that they need to survive.  I can't see Hasselblad having the bandwidth to have a bunch of H sales when their entire mfg is focused on the X platforms.

:)
-Joe
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