Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Joe Towner on May 08, 2020, 10:36:18 am
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But all we got was a new 920k dot screen. Same screen spec's as the 907x. No idea if existing backs can be repaired/upgraded to it or if it requires a whole new back.
It's been almost 4 years since the H6D-100c was announced in August 2016, but nothing else on the H side of Hasselblad. Still haven't seen a CFV II 50c or 907x, as we are almost at the 1 year point since that announcement. It's quite sad that this is what the company has become.
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But all we got was a new 920k dot screen. Same screen spec's as the 907x. No idea if existing backs can be repaired/upgraded to it or if it requires a whole new back.
It's been almost 4 years since the H6D-100c was announced in August 2016, but nothing else on the H side of Hasselblad. Still haven't seen a CFV II 50c or 907x, as we are almost at the 1 year point since that announcement. It's quite sad that this is what the company has become.
Well, there is this, a screen update (but maybe not the one you wanted) just announced today. Go to the Hasselblad facebook page, scroll down a bit. And it seems it is not available for existing H6D owners to upgrade to. Hey, don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger. As I get any additional details, I will add them.
I think the positive take away is that there are at least signs of activity, which there would not be if there were no plans for continuation of the H platform.
Steve Hendrix/CI
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But all we got was a new 920k dot screen. Same screen spec's as the 907x. No idea if existing backs can be repaired/upgraded to it or if it requires a whole new back.
It's been almost 4 years since the H6D-100c was announced in August 2016, but nothing else on the H side of Hasselblad.
Still haven't seen a CFV II 50c or 907x, as we are almost at the 1 year point since that announcement. It's quite sad that this is what the company has become.
These have been out in customer's hands since at least early March 2020.
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I think that the H-System is still alive. In 2020 there comes a new H firmware with some new features. I think a replacement of the display for the older H cameras is too expensive (>2.000$) and also not so important. The image excellent quality of the H6D-100c is more important.
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Given the age of the previous screen it's very possible their hand was forced because they could no longer source the original screen from their sub-supplier. In fact, I'd bet good money that was the case.
Ultimately it doens't matter why an improvement is made I guess; if you're buying an H6D today vs yesterday the newer screen is an improvement.
(note my obvious and extreme bias, but it's hard to argue against the technical veracity of my statement)
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Given the age of the previous screen it's very possible their hand was forced because they could no longer source the original screen from their sub-supplier. In fact, I'd bet good money that was the case.
Ultimately it doens't matter why an improvement is made I guess; if you're buying an H6D today vs yesterday the newer screen is an improvement.
(note my obvious and extreme bias, but it's hard to argue against the technical veracity of my statement)
There is no change in the screen. It's been 920K on all H6D cameras from the start.
As far as the bet, you can send a check. How much in dollars is good money?
The upgrade is simply that the buttons below the user interface are now backlit for easier viewing in dark environments and the play button will now also power the camera on or off with a long press instead of having to use the button on the grip. Also, the Gorilla Glass screen cover glass is now 50% thicker for better protection.
That's it. Just a couple of user convenience features and a minor durability update. No big deal.
As to your technical veracity, that's in your hands and who needs to argue these days.
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I think that the H-System is still alive. In 2020 there comes a new H firmware with some new features. I think a replacement of the display for the older H cameras is too expensive (>2.000$) and also not so important. The image excellent quality of the H6D-100c is more important.
There is no firmware update. The only changes are listed below as quoted from the Hasselblad Facebook page today.
Improvements on the new display:
-Upgraded user interface with backlit back buttons, enabling better visibility in dark environments
-50% thicker Gorilla Glass
-Added on/off button on the digital back's play button
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These have been out in customer's hands since at least early March 2020.
Hey Steve, I'd love to see it, are they the Special Editions or normal units. Between shutdowns and isolations, it's most likely the worst time to have a niche product come out. I'm digging around to see if anyone has posted about it and am not finding anything.
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Hasselblad gives away cameras to keep interest going in the X1D platform all firmware requests for the H6D 100c will be politely filed in the toilet.
Shame
Asking for firmware upgrades is like standing next to a tree a butting your head.
Don’t get me started.
PS. I have successfully used Automator on a Mac for focus stacking with Phocus (best tethering software available)
I’ve shot over 12k images in the past 30 days
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These have been out in customer's hands since at least early March 2020.
Yes. The 907x and CFV II 50c have been shipping for over 2 months. What a unique form factor when used together! Nice size when used with the new 45P compact lens and a versatile combo with the new XCD 35-75 zoom which is stunningly sharp. When the back is mounted on an older V series camera it feels much like shooting with a film back.
Here are some user shots with the 907x. https://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/907xcfvii50c (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/907xcfvii50c)
And a thread of 907x users at GetDPI entitled "Fun with the 907x" (apparently they don't know they're supposed to be sad) https://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/68158-fun-hasselblad-907x.html (https://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-and-digital-backs/68158-fun-hasselblad-907x.html)
The 907x is a unique connecting point for V, H, and X users. Mount the back on an old V camera for use with all of those lenses, attach the back to the 907x for full use of XCD lenses, or attach the H lens adapter to provide yet another platform for H-series lenses (manual focus only if the lens is older than about 2013 when the current lens firmware first appeared).
H lens owners have a tremendous variety of options for using their lenses. Hasselblad H cameras (up to 100 MP single-shot or 400 MP multi-shot), Leica S series with leaf shutter and autofocus function, 907x and X1D/X1D II mirrorless, Fuji GFX series with leaf shutter and manual focus (using FUJIFILM H Mount Adapter G), and Alpa with leaf shutter and manual focus.
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There is no change in the screen. It's been 920K on all H6D cameras from the start.
As far as the bet, you can send a check. How much in dollars is good money?
The upgrade is simply that the buttons below the user interface are now backlit for easier viewing in dark environments and the play button will now also power the camera on or off with a long press instead of having to use the button on the grip. Also, the Gorilla Glass screen cover glass is now 50% thicker for better protection.
That's it. Just a couple of user convenience features and a minor durability update. No big deal.
As to your technical veracity, that's in your hands and who needs to argue these days.
Touché! You’re right and I was wrong. I misread the news as an upgraded screen, but the screen is the same.
It’s a highly unusual update for a four-year old model. It may be minor, but I see no downsides for end users. Backlight buttons and thicker glass.
Do you have any insight as to why this update at this time? My insight was clearly wrong!
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Hasselblad gives away cameras to keep interest going in the X1D platform
Sweet! Can you get one of those give away cameras for me? Please?
All I've seen are the new ones for sale at $5,750 (which my wallet informs me is not a give away) and used X1D models (which still run almost $4,000 for a clean one).
It seems they are reasonably priced, but not give aways. Probably one reason why they have been the best selling medium-format camera at B&H for most of the past 10 months. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1487057-REG/hasselblad_x1d_ii_50c_medium.html (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1487057-REG/hasselblad_x1d_ii_50c_medium.html)
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Touché! You’re right and I was wrong. I misread the news as an upgraded screen, but the screen is the same.
It’s a highly unusual update for a four-year old model. It may be minor, but I see no downsides for end users. Backlight buttons and thicker glass.
Do you have any insight as to why this update at this time? My insight was clearly wrong!
No problem. It was a little confusing that the word "display" was used in referring to the module where the buttons are located.
I have no insight at all for the update. If I was forced to guess, I would say they're likely something that R&D has planned as features for future models and that there was existing space available for it, required minimal engineering, so... let's make these minor improvements now. That's just speculation on my part as an observer.
I have no insight as to why or when any manufacturer rolls out features, updates, and products except by observation of past history and current events and trends.
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There is no firmware update. The only changes are listed below as quoted from the Hasselblad Facebook page today.
A new H firmware will come in 2020. :)
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A new H firmware will come in 2020. :)
OK. Now that you've stated that twice, could you provide us with some evidence of that and tell us what features it will provide? It's a world full of rumor, speculation, and assertions presented as facts, especially in online forums.
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OK. Now that you've stated that twice, could you provide us with some evidence of that and tell us what features it will provide? It's a world full of rumor, speculation, and assertions presented as facts, especially in online forums.
I agree to you that we have much rumors and speculation.
I had a mail contact to Hasselblad some months ago and heard that they are working on a new firmware with e.g. focus stacking also for the H camera. Hasselblad is a small company so it takes perhaps a little bit longer.
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It's been almost 4 years since the H6D-100c was announced in August 2016, but nothing else on the H side of Hasselblad. It's quite sad that this is what the company has become.
Well. Let's see what Hasselblad has been up to since the H6D-100c was announced (which was itself a major overhaul of the internal electronics and user interface).
Starting with the H side of things: The H6D-400c MS was introduced at the beginning of 2018. Even if you don't want 400 MP images, I think it's worthwhile to see the difference that 4-shot makes on 100 MP images. The improvements in image quality are readily apparent. Hasselblad offers you a choice of single-shot, 4-shot, 6-shot (400 MP), 4K RAW full sensor width video, and film options from a single camera. It's quite sad that the options are so limited with other cameras; don't you think?
Of course, in the interim we've also seen the introduction from Hasselblad of entirely new categories and form factors of medium format cameras with the X1D/X1D II and 907x. While these are not upgrades to the H system; they are an extension of it as H lenses can be readily used with yet another option, mirrorless camera bodies. These use the new interface first introduced on the H6D-100c establishing a new cross-platform common user interface. Considering the number of photographers that are now using both DSLR and mirrorless systems, having a system that allows you to move one set of lenses between the two with relative ease has a number of advantages.
And perhaps realistic expectations for a small company in a very competitive market niche that wants to break new ground in new markets and to survive should be considered. In 4 years time: they have overhauled the H system with H6 cameras (in 50, 100, and 400 MP model options and an H6x to accommodate film and other digital back users), added 4K RAW video, introduced the X1D, X1D II, 907x, CFV II 50c along with an entirely new lens line (which includes a deep and refined set of lens profiles), the new A6D aerial system, and created Phocus Mobile 2 for tethering, Wi-Fi, processing, control, and sharing from an iPad. While at the same time regularly pushing out: new firmware to enable and improve promised features and stability for all the cameras, new features never promised (like the recent focus stacking for the X1D), and several new or improved features for Phocus along with major speed improvements. I would say the small, but dedicated, team of hardware, firmware, software, and optical engineers have been working hard along with the manufacturing staff.
Now, if your particular notion of a desired feature or product hasn't risen to the top of Hasselblad's rather long list of priorities; I understand that you're disappointed, but sad? What it appears to me they have tried to do is create a range of camera and lens options with unique form factors, feature sets, and a high degree of cross compatibility with a common user interface. From what I've observed, they've been pretty successful.
What they haven't changed is the extraordinarily consistent and natural color look that they have had for years. It is the most important aspect of the system for some users and I have frequently seen or heard the remark in reviews that the color is incredible or even the best they've ever seen. This, like most aspects of any camera system, is entirely subjective of course.
So will they ever do what every user, potential user, reviewer, critic, or armchair CEO thinks (or is certain) they should be doing? No, I don't think so. But no company will. I just hope they continue to innovate and design products that appeal to a large enough and broad enough number of users for whom the picture quality is as rewarding as their unique individual reasons for enjoying the experience of taking them.
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Hey tech talk when u jump on a forum like this bringing B.S. you stepped into it and we smell it!
Thanks for the history sum up but those of us who have lived it. Not just read and remember it, those of us who were sold promises from employees and have actually bought and used Hasselblad cameras and lenses for the last 30-40 tears oh meant years. We know first hand what the cameras and lenses capabilities are. And remember when The Hasselblad Brand meant BEST.
Released new innovated camera, crippled with bugs, promises of fixes and voodoo smoke oh we can’t do it so so here’s a new body cheaper please buy it and save our company what’s left of us it’s still not what you want but through this beautiful could be take a long camera on legs and it works slow but fine.
And ya sorry about not supporting the H but we did in the last three years make a few firmware changes so we could sell some new bodies and meet the requirements of those specific buyers.
About the H6D 100c and 400ms your clueless.
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Hey tech talk when u jump on a forum like this bringing B.S. you stepped into it and we smell it!
Does this mean that you're not going to get one of those cameras you said they were giving away for me?
I'm not sure who the "we" is for whom you've appointed yourself as spokesperson, but they're welcome to insult and attack me as well. I don't have any personal emotions invested here.
They can even make the same sort of false assumptions that you have regarding my 23 years of working in the trenches of digital imaging with a variety of camera systems and backs from my first Leaf DCB II Live on a 553 ELX (for catalog work) to the H6D-400c MS (for art repro) and knowing the pleasure of having a satisfied client as well as the pressure of trying to troubleshoot a problem in the middle of a shoot. It really doesn't matter to me. I have no desire to convince you of anything or to sooth anyone's pent-up hostility. I express my own point of view, just as you have so eloquently.
I do hope that you find writing your posts cathartic. Now I hope that you will find your weekend more enjoyable.
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I've been mostly a Rollei guy since even before I became a dealer, but I have an X1D which I like a lot (I also have a Pentax 645z and well a lot of cameras). Like Doug Peterson I may be biased, but I can still praise what I think is good gear that isn't my brand, and I have to say I really like the H platform and were I to buy a new MF system that is what I'd get. I like the ergonomics and the viewfinder and the true focus and the fast sync speeds. I also like the out of the box color rendering of the Hasselblads too.
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Sorry TechTalk, that's a lot of bluster with lots of recycling. I want to see Hasselblad do things & thrive. It seems like there are 5-6 people with 907x setups starting in March. That's great, but for something announced last July to great fanfare & lots of 'I'd buy this' from folks who don't shoot digital medium format, I am expecting a bit more. The original X1D roll out was hard due to demanding being 10x of expectations. I would think that Hasselblad would have learned from this experience in 2016/2017 and prepared.
My comment was specific to the H platform, the flagship top of the line 100mp $33,000 kit - same price as it was announced in 2016. The camera that hasn't had a new or improved lens in the H6D lifetime, and I think the same can be said for the H5D. The H glass has been silent since the 50mm II & 120mm II in 2010, with everything else being older. The new shutters were in 2016, but it was the same optics & design.
There hasn't been an overhauling of the H6 line in the last 4 years - the H6 was the overhaul that started when the H5D shipped. The -100c was in final designs & is the reference point for these comments. The -400c MS came out in 1/2018, but is built on the same platform that Hass invested years in, is a specialist tool. MS is not something most photographers will ever consider. So we're back at the flagship, most lusted after top of the line product still being the H6D-100c.
The Sony 150mp BSI chip has been shipping since 2018 with PhaseOne having their IQ4 shipping Sept/Oct of 2018. I am not expecting Hasselblad to ship on the same timeframe as Phase, but I would expect that there would be engineering units built & around that for initial testing and calibration purposes. Does the existing H glass render to the level expected of a flagship camera with that new sensor? I'm going to go ahead and say that variances are all over the place, with some lenses being stronger than others. To resolve this, it's either a matter of working that partnership with Fuji, or finding a new partner to produce lenses that will deliver for a future camera. Those lens announcements & shipping activity is the 'life' I am expecting from Hasselblad on the H platform.
Say a pro already had a full lens set & purchased a H6D-100c when it first came out. What would you have to talk to them about over the last 4 years? These folks aren't going to step down to a X1D. So they keep plugging away with the -100c, because it delivers. Hass doesn't have anything new to sell these users - they're spending their upgrade money with other companies.
Digital Medium Format is a massive investment that people spend years on. These last few years may have been the high point for photographer incomes for a while. That it's 9 months from announcement to shipping in non-Covid times, I can only guess what that clock looks like now. Hasselblad needs sales to survive, and I don't see what they are selling in support of their flagship camera. Without a forward looking statement of any kind, with a history of slow delivery, and having spent these last years focused on the X platform, is there a real future for the H flagship?
Hence the buttons comment.
-Joe
Well. Let's see what Hasselblad has been up to since the H6D-100c was announced (which was itself a major overhaul of the internal electronics and user interface).
Starting with the H side of things: The H6D-400c MS was introduced at the beginning of 2018. Even if you don't want 400 MP images, I think it's worthwhile to see the difference that 4-shot makes on 100 MP images. The improvements in image quality are readily apparent. Hasselblad offers you a choice of single-shot, 4-shot, 6-shot (400 MP), 4K RAW full sensor width video, and film options from a single camera. It's quite sad that the options are so limited with other cameras; don't you think?
Of course, in the interim we've also seen the introduction from Hasselblad of entirely new categories and form factors of medium format cameras with the X1D/X1D II and 907x. While these are not upgrades to the H system; they are an extension of it as H lenses can be readily used with yet another option, mirrorless camera bodies. These use the new interface first introduced on the H6D-100c establishing a new cross-platform common user interface. Considering the number of photographers that are now using both DSLR and mirrorless systems, having a system that allows you to move one set of lenses between the two with relative ease has a number of advantages.
And perhaps realistic expectations for a small company in a very competitive market niche that wants to break new ground in new markets and to survive should be considered. In 4 years time: they have overhauled the H system with H6 cameras (in 50, 100, and 400 MP model options and an H6x to accommodate film and other digital back users), added 4K RAW video, introduced the X1D, X1D II, 907x, CFV II 50c along with an entirely new lens line (which includes a deep and refined set of lens profiles), the new A6D aerial system, and created Phocus Mobile 2 for tethering, Wi-Fi, processing, control, and sharing from an iPad. While at the same time regularly pushing out: new firmware to enable and improve promised features and stability for all the cameras, new features never promised (like the recent focus stacking for the X1D), and several new or improved features for Phocus along with major speed improvements. I would say the small, but dedicated, team of hardware, firmware, software, and optical engineers have been working hard along with the manufacturing staff.
Now, if your particular notion of a desired feature or product hasn't risen to the top of Hasselblad's rather long list of priorities; I understand that you're disappointed, but sad? What it appears to me they have tried to do is create a range of camera and lens options with unique form factors, feature sets, and a high degree of cross compatibility with a common user interface. From what I've observed, they've been pretty successful.
What they haven't changed is the extraordinarily consistent and natural color look that they have had for years. It is the most important aspect of the system for some users and I have frequently seen or heard the remark in reviews that the color is incredible or even the best they've ever seen. This, like most aspects of any camera system, is entirely subjective of course.
So will they ever do what every user, potential user, reviewer, critic, or armchair CEO thinks (or is certain) they should be doing? No, I don't think so. But no company will. I just hope they continue to innovate and design products that appeal to a large enough and broad enough number of users for whom the picture quality is as rewarding as their unique individual reasons for enjoying the experience of taking them.
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I want to see Hasselblad do things & thrive. ... The original X1D roll out was hard due to demanding being 10x of expectations. I would think that Hasselblad would have learned from this experience in 2016/2017 and prepared.....
Digital Medium Format is a massive investment that people spend years on. ... Hasselblad needs sales to survive, and I don't see what they are selling in support of their flagship camera.
Hasselblad have learnt from the X1D experience. People want small light medium format cameras with great image quality and will readily buy them. Most of the other camera manufacturers have also learnt that.
I have had 4 different H series cameras and they were great, but as soon as the X1D came out I wanted it. As soon as the early adaptors sorted out the bugs and the price came down I bought it. I could not imagine buying one of these basically 2001 vintage heavy cameras again. It is like a Nokia mobile phone.
If you need 100MP or 400MP they have one. I doubt that they sell many though. I doubt that is much different to a Canon 1Dx MkIII.
A "flag ship" is mostly for talking about and flying a flag. An aircraft carrier to parade the troops on occasionally when we already have drones and intercontinental missiles.
As for H series lenses, well what is missing that you would spend R&D developing?
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What Joe said is 100% true for me. I have 3 H lenses, 2 bodies and an IQ3100 (and no upgrade path). I'm extremely happy and it does more than I need (which at the moment is sit in a bag and look pretty), but I don't see any new additions anytime soon (for many reasons).
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Hey Bob,
Yea, X1D has size/weight going for it - we're not getting any younger. Given the buzz that Hasselblad had around the square V1D concept in 2016, and the roll out of the X1D the demand was known. To take this long to have limited units in the field is frustrating - either they grew the factory enough to support the X1D sales or they just put their heads down & people got cameras when ever they became available.
The reason I don't pull the X line into this discussion is because the X is just a pocket mirrorless camera. The flagship has to be in use, actively seen in high budget shoots & doing things for big brands. When you see it as a prop in another advertisement, you know exactly what it is. This is the whole brand awareness issue, the H draws attention, while the X is just another camera.
The more visual things get, the more important the higher resolution images are. Eye level window adverts need the higher resolution, especially in complex scenes or for promoting personal brands.
H series lenses - oh where to start:
- Take any lens, use the same formula, and upgrade the lens elements to shave 15% of the weight off
- HC 35mm has been extremely frustrating as to how much it has to be stopped down - do a new one
- Take the HCD 24mm & HCD 28mm full coverage plus some for use with the HTS
- HCD 35-90mm - get it to full coverage
- A new zoom lens that's longer than 110mm
I'm signed up for all the marketing pushes from Hasselblad. Never have they done a 'get your lens tuned' type specials. For a platform that doesn't have AF Microadjustment, getting the lenses tuned is a manual process only done at a service center. Make a fancy sticker that says 'ready to 150mp' and apply it to lenses post servicing.
The greater issue is now that the GFX100 is seen as a platform with a future, with a full crib of brand new lenses. Even of you don't need the 100mp, it's there. But what is also there is the faster frame rate, with the better AF performance. Plus CaptureOne support is baked in. If you don't want to spend the money, get the GFX50R/S and upgrade later. This is where that whole longevity thing comes in. If you were to buy in now, what's the outlook for new products that are a part of the system?
Will an X1D III be built around the 100mp sensor, and will it have to be a much larger camera to handle the amount of data being shoved around? Otherwise what is going to maintain the brand going forward?
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As a H6D-100c user, my view is:
- great colors and image quality
- best MF body UI on the market (physical and touch screen)
- aging lenses, the 100mm f2.2 in particular is weak compared to the Fuji 110mm f2.0, the Otus 100mm f1.4 or the Nikon 105mm f1.4. The only lenses I find truly outstanding are the 50mm II and 210mm f4. Those are world class lenses and there is nothing out there that’s significantly better. The 28mm f4 is very good too (far far better than the P1) but it’s image circle doesn’t fully cover (still very usage though)
- Hasselblad has done nothing for me since I bought the camera, they have barely been able to make it work up to the initially committed spec and that took more than a year. There has been zero update bringing value beyond that baseline
- Hasselblad has not communicated at all about the future of the H platform nor in terms of camera nor in terms of lenses. To my eyes it’s a dead platform
- as of now I only keep it in hope of a H7D-150c that would have a more tech camera movement friendly sensor for my Arcaswiss... but I am starting to think that I should perhaps just sell it and wait for a good deal on an IQ4-150 after the next P1 upgrade
- although it probably goes against my interest as an owner of their most high end camera ever I’ll say it like it is, I am deeply dissatisfied with Hasselblad and would actively recommend against buying in the H platform at this stage unless someone finds a sweet deal second hand and it 100% happy with what the system does today even if nothing better ever comes (which is now most likely)
What may come to the rescue is P1’s apparent inability to make Capture One Pro work with good performance on the new Mac Pro... and the fact that the IQ4-150 appears to be their worst release ever with a long list of bugs, power consumption issues that they don’t appear to be able to fix either. I think that Fuji is the only reasonable choice these days...
Cheers,
Bernard
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Flagships cameras are important. Canon sells tens of thousands of the 1Dx II's and now the III's because it's their absolute best camera. Same for the Nikon D5/D6... The PhaseOne IQ4 150mp is a flagship product, and when it can be used effectively is a much better camera.
Remember, the purpose of a camera is to capture a visual moment in time. There is lots of trade offs between platforms, technology and ability. But for the absolute best posed, lit & captured image, there's nothing better. The Hasselblad can be a part of this discussion, but that's a preference on color & form. But it has been a part of this discussion for DECADES. How many formal portraits for heads of state have been shot on Hasselblad over the years? The future king of England had his formal wedding photos shot on a H4D-50. Why is it now ok that Hasselblad is not maintaining its top end product line to the standards we all deserve.
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Flagships cameras are important. Canon sells tens of thousands of the 1Dx II's and now the III's because it's their absolute best camera. Same for the Nikon D5/D6... The PhaseOne IQ4 150mp is a flagship product, and when it can be used effectively is a much better camera.
The future king of England had his formal wedding photos shot on a H4D-50. Why is it now ok that Hasselblad is not maintaining its top end product line to the standards we all deserve.
Yes but there is a big market for a Canon 1DX for the sports photographers and they have big pockets for the best if it gives them an edge.
What is the market for 150MP medium format cameras? Making the best camera does not help if you go broke.
A top professional landscape photographer that I know would much rather have a wide format camera than a bigger megapixel camera in say 4:3. Half the pixels are wasted anyway.
Try getting one of those 140MP cameras in under 7Kg carry on luggage.
What portrait photo could an H4D-40 not take today? That market hasn't changed much. There is something is the saying that you can charge more for a bigger camera (:-)
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Sorry TechTalk, that's a lot of bluster with lots of recycling.
I like to think of it as presenting facts to counter false assertions or misleading implications, and offering a realistic view of a broad marketplace consisting of many individuals with a variety of individual needs and desires that won't find complete satisfaction anywhere, but who will find a wide variety of options to choose from provided by different manufacturers each of whom seek to differentiate themselves with various form factors, options, and feature sets. I speak only for myself and from my own perspective and I'm not looking to take on the pretension of being the one that sets "the standards we all deserve". There are too many photographers in the world for me to do that and they are all unique.
Every manufacturer of high quality cameras and lenses will find plenty of online criticism of their products and thankfully it is often presented in a positive way. Sometimes it isn't. It's my personal belief that they are all deserving of respect and thoughtful consideration of their efforts to bring us the variety of options that we enjoy. This is especially true in the medium format space where Pentax, Leica, Fuji, Phase One, and Hasselblad all offer products of exceptional quality and unique designs. Individuals will find the system that suits them best.
I want to see Hasselblad do things & thrive.
And you have a special way of showing it.
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The H glass has been silent since the 50mm II & 120mm II in 2010, with everything else being older.
You're leaving out the 24mm f/4.8 HCD lens which was announced at Photokina in 2012 along with the H5D platform and a new macro converter. The 24mm HCD is a stunning performer.
I invite you to compare it to the only other lens that wide for a medium-format DSLR which is the Leica Super-Elmar-S 24mm f/3.5. They are both amazing lenses.
https://cdn.hasselblad.com/datasheets/h-lenses/HCD24-Datasheet-en.pdf (https://cdn.hasselblad.com/datasheets/h-lenses/HCD24-Datasheet-en.pdf)
https://us.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-S/S-Lenses/Prime-Lenses/Super-Elmar-S-24-f-3.5-ASPH (https://us.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-S/S-Lenses/Prime-Lenses/Super-Elmar-S-24-f-3.5-ASPH)
Or compare it to the Rodenstock HR Digaron-S 23mm f/5.6
http://www.rodenstock-photo.com/Archiv/Objektive%20digitale%20Fotografie%20e.pdf (http://www.rodenstock-photo.com/Archiv/Objektive%20digitale%20Fotografie%20e.pdf)
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The new shutters were in 2016, but it was the same optics & design.
I failed to mention the shutter speed upgrade in the post that you felt was "bluster" and "recycling". Thanks for the reminder. It is a nice upgrade isn't it?
It's also nice that all the lenses in the line from 24mm thru 300mm were upgraded to the new 1/2,000th top shutter speed. I wonder why the Phase One 150mm f/2.8 and 240mm f/4.5 have a slower top speed of 1/1,000th than the rest of their line.
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Does the existing H glass render to the level expected of a flagship camera with that new sensor?
Make a fancy sticker that says 'ready to 150mp' and apply it to lenses post servicing.
This represents a fundamental misunderstanding of how image resolution works. Thanks for bringing it up as I'm sure there are many people with the same misunderstanding. Lenses, simply put, don't have megapixels.
To quote the brilliant Roger Cicala of Lensrentals.com, "I get asked several times a week if this lens or that is ‘capable of resolving’ this number of megapixels. Some people seem to think a lens should be ‘certified’ for a certain number of pixels or something. That’s not how it works. That’s not how any of it works."
"If you have a reasonably good lens and/or a reasonably good camera, upgrading either one upgrades your images. If you ask something like ‘is my camera going to out resolve this lens’ you sound silly."
The truth is that image resolution = system resolution (system MTF). The combination of lens + camera sensor each contribute, but are not competitors, in determining image resolution. One doesn't win over the other. Anyone that tells you that you need better lenses to see the improvements of a higher resolution camera is probably trying to sell you new lenses or is just misinformed. The same holds true if someone says that you need a better camera with more resolution to see the benefit of your latest super lens purchase.
To quote Roger one last time, "That’s not how it works. How it does work is very simple math: System MTF = Camera MTF x Lens MTF. MTF maxes at 1.0 because 1.0 is perfect. So let’s say my camera MTF is 0.7, and my lens MTF is 0.7, then my system MTF is 0.49 (Lens MTF x Camera MTF). This is actually a pretty reasonable system.
Now, let’s say I get a much better camera with much higher resolution; the camera MTF is 0.9. The system MTF with the same lens also increases: 0.7 X 0.9 = 0.63. On the other hand, I could do the same thing if I bought a much better lens and kept it on the same camera. The camera basically never ‘out resolves the lens’."
I suggest scrolling to the appendix at the bottom of this article on the Lensrentals.com blog for a fuller explanation. The entire article is also worth reading. You may also want to check out their full site while you're there.
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/more-ultra-high-resolution-mtf-experiments/ (https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/more-ultra-high-resolution-mtf-experiments/)
My apologies for being so lazy as to just quote Roger's words, but he explains this better than I would. Plus, I hate to type and this is all very tedious. However, it does help explain why manufacturers aren't constantly releasing new lenses every time higher resolutions come along and why photographers often keep lenses when changing cameras.
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- Take any lens, use the same formula, and upgrade the lens elements to shave 15% of the weight off
I'm curious as to the specifics of how your system for this works. Optical engineers around the world would love to see how you do this!
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The -400c MS came out in 1/2018, but is built on the same platform that Hass invested years in, is a specialist tool. MS is not something most photographers will ever consider. So we're back at the flagship, most lusted after top of the line product still being the H6D-100c.
I'm confused. You say that multi-shot (otherwise known as pixelshift) "is not something most photographers will ever consider" and "is a specialist tool". You also seem to think that disqualifies the H6D-400c MS from being Hasselblad's flagship camera. Your reasoning eludes me.
If what you say is correct, I don't understand why Sony, Panasonic, Olympus, and Pentax would feature that in so many of their recent models. Are those camera models all specialist tools? I thought pixel shift was an additional feature in those cameras that extended the range of quality/resolution options to make them more appealing, given that "most photographers" will shoot static objects occasionally where this can be a benefit.
Of course we're talking about medium format here, but if my memory is correct, Fuji caused a stir at a conference earlier this year when they announced a development preview of 400 MP multi-shot (pixel shift) for the GFX 100. Would that additional option make it no longer their flagship medium format camera?
https://www.dpreview.com/news/7648446596/fujifilm-says-new-400mp-pixel-shift-mode-is-coming-to-its-gfx-100-camera-system (https://www.dpreview.com/news/7648446596/fujifilm-says-new-400mp-pixel-shift-mode-is-coming-to-its-gfx-100-camera-system)
The most recent models for Hasselblad and Phase One were both introduced in 2018. Phase One with the XF IQ4 150MP (currently $51,990 with choice of prime lens) and Hasselblad with the H6D-400c MS ($47,995 body and back). Personally, I consider those to be the flagship DSLR models in each line. Both fine cameras capable of great image quality and comparably priced.
The Hasselblad H6D-400c MS offers the choices of 100 MP in single or 4-shot mode (full RGB color capture), plus 400 MP 6-shot mode, plus it accepts film backs, plus internal 4K RAW video. Phase One introduced the XF IQ4 150MP as a one-shot digital capture only (no film or multi-shot options), but recently they have added beta firmware that allows multiple captures without any pixel shift in order to reduce noise (noise reduction is a benefit of any multi-shot capture). I assume you still think that the IQ4 150 is the flagship. So, is it only when a pixel shift happens during multiple capture scenarios that a camera model would lose that distinction?
Out of curiosity, I went online to B&H to check their listings for best selling Hasselblad H models. #1 H model was H6D-50c, #2 H6D-400c MS, and #3 H6D-100c. It appears the least expensive model is the best seller, the most versatile (and most expensive) second place, the one in the middle comes in third. This can change (and likely does) at anytime. By the way, if you check this for yourself, be sure to actually select best seller from the "sort by" list even though that shows at the top by default. It doesn't actually sort that way until you choose it.
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The Hasselblad H6D-100c and the Phase One XF IQ4-150 are excellent cameras. Thats all. :)
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Wow Tech, you really are married to the defense of a company. Being a super fan isn't helpful, especially when trying to be objective. Would you tell a friend that yes, they should spend $33,000 for a new Hasselblad camera? I couldn't.
Your exhaustive excuses don't make up for the platform being viewed as a dead end. Everything from lighter lenses (see Canon 400mm/2.8 III) to lens resolving quality improvements to support higher resolution backs (Schneider Blue Rings, Nikon post D800), point out you have opinions that do not align with what other vendors are shipping. I like Roger, he's one of my dealers ;D He'll tell you all about how lenses have improved over the last decade, so why are those improvements not showing up in H glass?
I stand by my statements, with my actual name. I want Hasselblad to give us something to be happy about, something that makes existing H owners open their wallets for. A reason to buy in further on the H platform, not sell before everyone else. Backlight buttons on a 4 year old camera aren't it.
-Joe
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Wow Tech, you really are married to the defense of a company. Being a super fan isn't helpful, especially when trying to be objective.
Clearly we have different attitudes. You look for every real or perceived or mistaken weakness to attack Hasselblad as a company in order to diminish their reputation and disparage one or more of their product lines. Sometimes this is done by someone that wants to sell you something else. My personal opinion, from what I can gather from your posts, is that Hasselblad hasn't followed your playbook regarding what they should make, when they should make it, and how to communicate about future product plans and it appears to greatly upset you. While you're obviously not alone in this attitude, you appear to take on the air of speaking for "all" of us. You don't. Neither do I. The world has a lot of photographers in it and it's a far larger world than you or me or all of the people that post on or visit this forum. And they're all making photographs of whatever they choose with whatever they choose.
The difference in attitude is that I don't expect to have much influence over the tools that the various manufacturers make available for me. I survey what's available, choose what works best for my particular needs, and try to use them to the best of my abilities. I'm happy there are so many great tools available! I use a product until I decide there is something that suits my current needs better and when finances permit move to that product instead. In the interim, I continue to use the former product that has given me good service and allowed me to pay my bills and earn a living. What I've never felt any urge to do is to go online and disparage some company or another for not doing what I think they should do. I wouldn't get any satisfaction from that. Others obviously do however.
As to my (product) marriages, the longest lasting ones over 20+ years, have been to: A 4 MP Leaf DCB II Live mounted on a Hasselblad EL which made excellent images for its time, but was a complicated array of proprietary cables, an RGB filter wheel hanging in front of the lens, AC power supply, custom card installed in the computer, and given all the potential points for failure, I held my breath every morning and hoped it would fire up and work the rest of the day without incident! But... it paid the bills and for itself. Next was a 6 MP Leaf Volare mounted to a Sinarcam which was attached to the rear standard of a Sinar P2. The Sinarcam housed the RGB filters internally and had a precise and durable rotary shutter. For me, it felt more integrated and was a definite improvement.
That back was replaced with a SinarBack 23HR (and later a 22 MP SinarBack 54H) which had the same 6 MP sensor; but instead of a monochrome sensor shooting thru an RGB filter wheel to produce color, it had a Bayer filter array that offered single-shot color, 4-shot full color resolution, and 16-shot higher resolution color. Plus, everything was Sinar; the back, camera, lenses, and software. By far the best system I had used up to that time! The multi-shot pixel shift and system integration gave me resolution options and a workflow that was smoother with fewer problems. I was very happy to have an integrated multi-shot solution that gave me resolution options! But (there's always a but)... it was big AC powered studio only system.
So, along comes the Hasselblad H1 and Imacon 528c that gives me the same multi-shot capabilities in a much smaller package that can travel and even shoot hand held when needed. They also worked well together.
Not too long after, Hasselblad and Imacon get married and eventually have a baby called the H3D series. Hasselblad states their intention to focus on total system integration in order to deliver greater precision and expand system capabilities beyond what hybrid back and body systems can provide. Hey, I'm on board that train, especially with multi-shot included in the mix! Other people freak out! Especially on this forum. But for me (the only person I speak for), it was the right path. And for me, the system has worked well and progressed to my satisfaction for my needs. I'm not a "super fan" of anything outside of my family and friends, but I'm happy to work with whatever equipment best suits my needs without feeling a need to put something else down.
Now those were the marriages. There were shorter affairs with other products; a Kodak DCS back comes to mind along with others that will go unmentioned.
I'm obviously subjective when it comes to choosing equipment the works for me. We all are. What I attempt to remain objective about is the broader market that serves other peoples needs as well as my own. What I don't attempt to do is advise companies what they should be doing for me on a forum. There are plenty of others doing that already and like I said, it wouldn't give me any satisfaction. Besides, I wouldn't want the job of being the advisor (or CEO) of a camera maker. I have more than enough stress in my life already!
As to being a defender, you could make the same scattershot attacks against any medium format DSLR camera maker using some combination of those you aim at Hasselblad (product delays, firmware upgrades needed, variations in lens line age and performance, features or resolutions that another manufacturer has that they don't, not broadcasting what their next products are going to be while they're still selling their current products, etc.). You choose to single out Hasselblad. In this case it was a brand I'm familiar with in a market that I'm familiar with, so I corrected false statements and assumptions and provided my own perspective. I understand that you don't like it and want to lash out at me. That doesn't matter to me. I'm only concerned with how friends, family, and clients view me. As I've alluded to before, I don't have any emotional attachments here.
Now, if the same sort of attacks are focused on another manufacturer and no one else stepped up, I might volunteer my time. I don't care much for false statements or innuendo or other types of attacks that I think are lacking in merit and I'm reasonably observant of what all the manufacturers have done and are currently doing in this space. So... let me know if you think I'm needed for a different perspective on things.
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The Hasselblad H6D-100c and the Phase One XF IQ4-150 are excellent cameras. Thats all. :)
I like the way you think. It's refreshing.
I also think that Leica, Pentax, and Fuji make excellent cameras as well.
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- Take the HCD 24mm & HCD 28mm full coverage
- HCD 35-90mm - get it to full coverage
The 28mm f4 is very good too (far far better than the P1) but it’s image circle doesn’t fully cover
HC Lenses are designed to cover the full 645 film format which is 42 x 56 mm. The 40.0 x 53.4 mm sensors that we now call "full-frame" are smaller than the 42 x 56 mm film size. Hasselblad H series cameras are unique in the current world of digital medium format cameras as you can shoot both film and digital with the same camera.
HCD Lenses were designed for digital sensors all of which are smaller than 645 film format.
HCD lenses are unique in design in that Hasselblad incorporated the fact that vignetting can be corrected digitally into the initial lens design. Why? Because designing a lens with some degree of under correction of vignetting opens the potential for better correction of factors that must be corrected optically, as every lens design is a long series of trade-offs. This approach also allowed for potential reductions in size, weight, and complexity. HCD lenses will therefor show slightly more vignetting than would normally be expected if vignetting correction is turned off in the software that you use.
The largest digital sensors at the time of design were 36.7 x 49 mm (somewhat smaller that the 40.0 x 53.4 mm sensors that we now call full-frame even though that is still slightly smaller than the 42 x 56 mm film size). This 37 x 49 mm sensor size is what the HCD lens designs were optimized for, although the image circles extend well beyond just those sensor dimensions. (This is not unique to Hasselblad. The Rodenstock HR Digaron-S 23mm f/5.6, introduced in 2008, that Phase One now sells for their new XT camera according to Rodenstock's published data has a "maximum recommended sensor format" of 33 x 44 mm or 37 x 49 mm with reduced movements. Obviously it can be used with the larger sensors; you're just pushing closer to edge of the image circle. See page 4 here: http://www.rodenstock-photo.com/Archiv/Objektive%20digitale%20Fotografie%20e.pdf (http://www.rodenstock-photo.com/Archiv/Objektive%20digitale%20Fotografie%20e.pdf) )
Using HCD lenses with full-frame digital sensors is NOT a problem. They absolutely do provide full frame coverage. Hasselblad does make users aware that there may be slightly more vignetting (fully compensated for by digital lens correction in software), but it in no way limits their use.
Hasselblad does not recommend HCD lenses for use with FILM. The film cannot apply the vignetting lens correction and the film size is even larger than "full-frame" sensors.
Read up a little. There is a brochure that shows the three HCD lenses with images showing the full coverage with and without the digital vignetting correction applied. (Note: images in the PDF are low resolution so that the PDF file is smaller for download)...
https://cdn.hasselblad.com/72678dc2-cb76-4fd5-aa5a-8bca7f8901b9_hcd+and+large+sensors.pdf
* Phocus lets you choose between HCD images taken with "full frame" sensors being displayed as full frame or cropped to 37 x 49 mm with a default selection in the software. Anytime images are displayed cropped you can turn the crop off to see the full image. It's covered in the brochure above, but not everyone takes the time to read it all.
If you prefer, here's a test run by an H6D-100c owner...
https://nordhaugphotography.wordpress.com/2017/01/21/h6d-100c-and-the-hcd-lenses/ (https://nordhaugphotography.wordpress.com/2017/01/21/h6d-100c-and-the-hcd-lenses/)
If you want to check out his landscapes he does some lovely work! https://www.nordhaugphotography.com/blog (https://www.nordhaugphotography.com/blog)
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I like Roger, he's one of my dealers ;D He'll tell you all about how lenses have improved over the last decade
I'm glad to hear that you're a customer of Roger Cicala and Lensrentals (https://www.lensrentals.com). They're a fantastic company and he and his team have extraordinary knowledge! When it comes to being told all about lenses, I think I'll get it straight from Roger's blog (https://wordpress.lensrentals.com/blog/) and his geek articles (https://wordpress.lensrentals.com/blog/category/geek-articles/) rather than summarized second hand. But thanks anyway.
You really should share with him your insights on how you can "Take any lens, use the same formula, and upgrade the lens elements to shave 15% of the weight off" or how the age of a lens design is used to measure image quality and resolution capacity. I'm sure that he'd be interested in these and your other optical points of view. You might even get a grin from him like the one you used above.
Anyway, we do share a liking for him and his company. Since that's the case, here's a review from Lensrentals you can read to pass the time.
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/first-impressions-with-the-hasselblad-x1d-ii/ (https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/first-impressions-with-the-hasselblad-x1d-ii/)
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lens resolving quality improvements to support higher resolution backs (Schneider Blue Rings
The only "Blue Ring" lenses that have changed optically from the previous Mamiya/Phase One/Schneider labeled lenses are the 35mm, 45mm, and 150mm f/2.8. Two are redesigns of previously offered lenses (35 and 45) and one a newly designed 150mm f/2.8.
The rest use the same optical design as before. This doesn't mean that the older designs aren't just fine to use on later higher resolution backs or are not generally excellent lenses. They do work just fine and are generally excellent lenses. As with every single line of lenses on the planet, some are better than others.
The newest updates from Hasselblad are the redesign of two of their previously offered lenses (50mm II and 120mm II) and extending the wide-angle range to include a 24mm.
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It’s pretty simple really. DJI bought Hasselblad for the brand and possibly some bits of technical expertise.
What is simply happening is that the Hasselblad mgt team has not been able to convince the Chinese boss that investing any more money in a large camera with a moving mirror makes any sense.
And I don’t think that they existing user base sugar coating the reality of our overall dissatisfaction helps them in any way changing this sad situation.
The reality is that the tiny revenue they may still be generating with the H platform will very soon be zero if they don’t invest in it significantly and communicate about this investment.
They have some great assets, a user base that likes the H so I believe that there is some potential to change the game again but teling them everything is fine today isn’t helping.
What the H platform needs IMHO is:
- a back based on the 150mp sensor
- a couple of new mirrorless friendly lenses, starting with a portrait lens to replace the 100mm f2.2 and a modern 35mm
- as an option a mirrorless viewfinder with an AF compatible with the new lenses
- a couple of key modern features such as AWB, DoF stacking,...
It’s a moderate investment, they have all the technological building blocks already in house.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Yep, that's pretty much it Bernard. Lots of possibilities with building blocks in house, but a long term lack of action.
I love shooting with my H, but I can't tell someone that investing $33k in a H6D is a good decision.
-Joe
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It’s pretty simple really. DJI bought Hasselblad for the brand and possibly some bits of technical expertise.
Well, that's stated as if it's a simple fact. Stated with the pretense that you have some special insight into the strategic thinking of the DJI management team which I don't see any evidence of you possessing. Could this be the product of a narrow self-absorbed viewpoint that projects doom, gloom, and sadness when someone's expectations and priorities are not being catered to with the expedience to which they feel entitled and which factors in no accounting of any other needs or priorities outside of their own? I suppose it could.
It doesn't occur to you that DJI makes more than consumer drone products; that in fact, they have a separate industrial enterprise division that uses large drones in a vast array of applications that include the fields of energy, construction, forestry, agriculture, mapping, and photogrammetric surveying among others. It doesn't occur to you that DJI may have seen more in Hasselblad than a "brand" or maybe just "possibly some bits of technical expertise"; but that beyond those things, they may have seen an existing level of cameras, lenses, and image quality, that they didn't posses and an imaging platform that could be readily incorporated into that part of their business, instead of just building large aerial platforms to fly other third party cameras for those applications. You may have noticed that businesses will often acquire a company that has products, capabilities, and expertise they desire, but which they don't currently have in-house, as a cost effective way of obtaining those. While DJI has experience in building aerial cameras with small sensors, they didn't have any expertise in building large sensor aerial camera systems for industrial applications; but they do now.
Then again, that wouldn't be likely to enter into your imagining of DJI's motives because it doesn't fit the "sad" narrative you wish to project. Nah, all DJI was looking for was a "brand" and "some bits" from your sad viewpoint. Why? Because it has nothing to do with what you want to do and you seem to have some difficulty seeing beyond what you want. Better to portray things in the most diminished and negative light possible when that's where you're coming from; isn't it?
Now, I don't have any better knowledge of the motives or thinking DJI may have in investing in Hasselblad than you do. And, I've never flown a drone. But, I am capable of at least looking beyond my own small world of interests. At least, I try to. Here are some examples of applications I think DJI may have had an interest in when considering their investment.
https://www.provideocoalition.com/hasselblad-a6d-sync-8-100-megapixel-aerial-cameras/ (https://www.provideocoalition.com/hasselblad-a6d-sync-8-100-megapixel-aerial-cameras/)
LiDAR Power Line Inspections with Hasselblad A6D (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k2nK5KALfs)
https://www.hasselblad.com/news/ats-advances-3d-city-modeling-with-the-a6d/ (https://www.hasselblad.com/news/ats-advances-3d-city-modeling-with-the-a6d/)
https://www.hasselblad.com/news/in-the-sky-with-z-air/ (https://www.hasselblad.com/news/in-the-sky-with-z-air/)
https://www.hasselblad.com/news/inspecting-power-lines-with-aerolaser-and-the-a6d/ (https://www.hasselblad.com/news/inspecting-power-lines-with-aerolaser-and-the-a6d/)
https://www.hasselblad.com/a6d-100c-dji-m600-pro/ (https://www.hasselblad.com/a6d-100c-dji-m600-pro/)
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Dji just lost a patent case in the US vs autel there is a chance they can’t sell any more drones in the US...I doubt that will actually happen but who knows...
I just bought a X1DII with 3 lenses because I think the system provides the best color and files for me right now as well as really forward looking iPad integration....for now that part is more of a promise but at least they are trying....
I still think Sony makes the best bang for the buck overall cameras...and lenses now as well....and obviously sensors...
I think the phase XT is a great and interesting camera with the ultimate IQ right now....
the XF, just like the H system is a really, really, really tough sell....the IQ is there but the GFX or XD is in the same ball park....the top line mirror less aren’t far behind and so so so much friendlier to work with...
I actually think the H MS might be the better choice right now if you are looking for reproduction....and it is cheaper...I have no clue who would buy a XF right now....if you want ultimate landscape or architecture, the XT is the better system but it’s just crazy money....
phase is IMO a software company at this point and hasselblad has a real chance to compete with leica and fuji (for different reasons of course) for a strange segment of the market slightly above top of the line specs of mirrorless and object of want/desire/.....
the H system is just as dead as the XF and DSLR...
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What is simply happening is that the Hasselblad mgt team has not been able to convince the Chinese boss that investing any more money in a large camera with a moving mirror makes any sense.
Given the insight which you've applied to the motivations that DJI has for investing in Hasselblad, you're now going to assert that you have information to share as to the budget discussions between Hasselblad and DJI for future product development? Why? Planning meetings, budgeting conferences, and discussions projecting future roadmaps for products are normally outside the area of public knowledge.
I'm not going to say that you may not be eventually proven correct in your assumptions; mainly because I don't have any interest in speculating or making predictions. I've been surprised too many times by new products and I'm too busy using what's currently available to care very much. Besides, I don't know your track record of predictions.
Perhaps you could show us that you predicted the new user interface, electronics upgrade, and faster shutter speeds that we saw in the H6D. Maybe you predicted that they would bring out an entirely new line of mirrorless products shortly afterwards. Maybe the 907X and CFV II were on your radar before the rest of us heard about it. I don't know and don't want to take the time to look, but it would be interesting if you did.
Now, if I did want to make predictions or speculate (I don't, but I'll make a momentary exception), I suppose that I would examine what's occurred in the market in recent years. I'd start with facts; as I'm partial to facts as opposed to idle speculation in things I have no way of knowing.
What we know is that the camera market, as a whole, has been in steady decline for a number of years in both units sold as well as revenue. This is due to compact cameras largely being replaced by consumers using their phones for picture taking. What remains of the market are mostly serious amateurs and professionals for whom a phone is not adequate. What's more relevant to our consideration here is that there has been an a major shift in preference of that remaining market for smaller and lighter mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras (MILC) over DSLR models. DSLR sales have been in steep decline for some time.
The medium format market is not immune to those trends or the pressure of increasingly better full-frame 35mm cameras which now have resolution capable of meeting many needs which previously required medium format. The fact that Hasselblad made the move to mirrorless and has devoted their time and energy since then to improving their initial product, expanding their line of lenses for it, as well as developing a model (907X / CFV II 50c) that serves as a connecting point for all the V, H, and X products they have ever made is clearly the most logical move to have a sustainable future for any and all of their product lines. Had they not done so, it would have been detrimental to the future of the company and all those truly interested in seeing it continue. Having a "flagship" doesn't matter very much if it and the rest of the fleet that support it are sinking!
Like most newborns, the X system has required a lot of attention to its development to insure that it's able to thrive and have a positive future. Has the attention for new lens development, hardware and firmware improvements, and new and upgraded models been laser focused for the past few years on the new kid? Of course it has! Thankfully, because everything else is depending on it continuing to grow. The older sibling got bigger (more megapixels) a couple of years ago, thanks to a new multi-shot addition. But yeah, the attention has definitely been on the new kid in order to keep the whole family succeeding. (Please indulge the family analogy. Hasselblad doesn't make just one camera or just one type of camera; it is a whole family of related cameras. Even the old grandparent V system is getting a little love these days.)
Based on those facts, my perception is the longevity of the "H" series depends largely on a healthy company being sustained into the future with profits from the mirrorless products and my perception that DJI has an interest in larger higher resolution sensors (and thus the backs, lenses, and cameras they're derived from) for their industrial aerial product solutions. But that's just my speculation. I don't have a clue what the future holds. Only Hasselblad and DJI know that. Except of course for those that have already pronounced death based on the lack of fullfilment of their particular desires and resentment for all the attention that the new sibling has received for it's first few years of life.
* I hope that wasn't too sugar coated for you.
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As a H6D-100c user, my view is:
- great colors and image quality
- best MF body UI on the market (physical and touch screen)...
I’ll say it like it is, I am deeply dissatisfied with Hasselblad and would actively recommend against buying in the H platform
Cheers,
Bernard
I love shooting with my H, but I can't tell someone that investing $33k in a H6D is a good decision.
-Joe
I have a great deal of difficulty reconciling statements like this in my mind. "I get great color and image quality along with best MF body UI on the market (physical and touch screen)"... and "I am deeply dissatisfied". Or... "I love shooting with my H, but I can't tell someone that investing $33k in a H6D is a good decision." Maybe it's just the way my mind works, but it's puzzling to me.
Also, I hope that I'd never be presumptuous enough to tell someone else what camera they should or should not buy. If asked, I might help organize someone's thoughts by suggesting they consider their priorities and deciding which are most important to them based on their usage and budget. But that's about it. There are just too many variables in individuals and their wants, needs, preferences, types of subjects, shooting styles, and much more. Certainly any of the medium format cameras available today could be an excellent choice, depending on the person and the purpose.
I would suggest that once they have their preferences and needs prioritized, that they make sure all of the features that are important to them are fully enabled before they commit to buying. You never know how long a feature to be enabled at a later date is going to be. Then test it thoroughly to make sure that they understand exactly what they're getting before buying. To avoid disappointment, don't assume anything! This, I believe, would be the most mature and reasonable approach.
And I don’t think that they existing user base sugar coating the reality of our overall dissatisfaction helps them in any way changing this sad situation.
I don't think that a reasonable person would consider correcting misstatements of fact or misleading innuendo or false presumptions as "sugar coating". I'm reasonably sure that looking back on where digital imaging has come from and where we find ourselves today, with the great tools at our disposal, without feeling sad about what the future may hold, would be considered too much sugar coating either.
And I'm not sure that stating the facts about features unique to the Hasselblad H system like: multi-shot, having a film option, 4K RAW large sensor video, multiple camera platforms for H lenses (Leica S, X1D/X1D II, 907X, H Body, Fuji GFX, Alpa), Hasselblad color science, HTS 1.5 Tilt/Shit Adapter, and offering the widest range of focal lengths available, are excessively sugar coated. Some or all of those things may be of no importance to you, they might be quite important to someone else.
But, if what you consider to be sugar coating is enjoying what is available now without worrying too much over a future that I have no control over... Well, cover me in sugar 'til the flys come buzzing around! I'll take current enjoyment from what is available now and you can have all the worry and sadness over what you don't have.
And it probably goes without saying at this point, but when you say "our" "overall dissatisfaction", please don't include me. There may be others that wish to be excluded from that group as well. If so, they can join me in our land of sugar coated overall satisfaction.
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You may want to start by taking a deep(er) breath before posting.
I fail to see in what you write much but an acknowledgement that as of today, based on the facts we both seem to like, Hasselblad isn’t showing us any sign contradicting the fact that the H platform has been on a standstill for years, nor any sign that it is going to change moving forward.
Contradiction btwn “best UI” and deep dissatisfaction? Not at all.
Best UI simply means better than the XF in the tiny largest MF sensor arena. It’s not any close in terms of usability to what other very high image quality options offer, such as the GFX100. There are still many things to like in the H platform. Great leaf shutters, nice touch UI,... so I am far from throwing the baby with the water. I am absolutely not a Hasselblad basher contrary to what you imply.
I believe you keep sugar coating it because you fail to acknowledge the real issues with the way Hasselblad has been letting the H platform die a slow death.
On the other hand I believe that I, as an owner, acknowledges the positive stuff as well as the issues. I find this an objective approach. Sorry if you see it as sad and gloomy. Facts can be painful when you start with a pre-conceived idea about what they should be.
DJI motivation? You are right, I am just guessing. A couple of questions for you:
- I would love facts to tell me wrong. Do you know what % of revenue DJI is generating with their pro division vs their consumer one?
- Has DJI used the Hasselblad logo on some consumer products?
- is there a real benefit for pro users of the integration between the DJI pro drones and the H6D-100c/other Hassy aerial cameras?
- What is the value vs fitting an XF/other P1 aerial cameras under a drone?
You may be right that the focus of DJI/Hasselblad moving forward is going to be pro dones. But that was not the direction when I, and most other H6D-100c buyers, bought into the H platform. Was it?
Finally I totally agree that the X1D was a great move, but it should not have been made at the cost of the H platform. Were DJI really willing to support the activities of Hasselblad as you seem to be guessing, they could easily have invested the amount needed to sustain both platforms. Especially knowing that they could have kept the H alive with a very limited level of investment.
Cheers,
Bernard
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- Has DJI used the Hasselblad logo on some consumer products?
Well, that's an easy one: The Mavic Pro 2
In any case, I don't see DJI developing a new "mirror" camera any time soon. The previously referenced A6D, even if it is based on the H hardware, does not have a mirror.
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Well, that's an easy one: The Mavic Pro 2
In any case, I don't see DJI developing a new "mirror" camera any time soon. The previously referenced A6D, even if it is based on the H hardware, does not have a mirror.
I know I own one... it was a rethorical question. :)
Cheers,
Bernard
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I have a great deal of difficulty reconciling statements like this in my mind. "I get great color and image quality along with best MF body UI on the market (physical and touch screen)"... and "I am deeply dissatisfied". Or... "I love shooting with my H, but I can't tell someone that investing $33k in a H6D is a good decision." Maybe it's just the way my mind works, but it's puzzling to me.
........
And it probably goes without saying at this point, but when you say "our" "overall dissatisfaction", please don't include me. There may be others that wish to be excluded from that group as well. If so, they can join me in our land of sugar coated overall satisfaction.
It's actually really easy to understand the 'we love the product' but here are the faults. Cameras are tools, and there are options. You pick a tool because it will produce what you need. You contrast that with what other tools do better or worse than the tool you selected. When a tool is as expensive as a digital medium format camera, you want to have faith that the investment you make can be built upon in the future. With the platform as it is, H shooters are reliant on Hasselblad to produce anything new for the platform. Any new lenses, bodies or backs, we're fully tied in. You have hitched your wagon to the H train, for better or worse.
Now the DJI connection is an easy one to point out some issues on. If you want to say the A platform is all that, why hasn't Hass done lenses specifically for it? They're using the same HC lenses we shoot with, and any weight savings there would be huge for the flight time & you can sell them to existing H users. It's just a hard sell to say that the A platform is better than the PhaseOne iXM platform for drone work. The iXM has the newer sensor, more frames per second, with purpose built lenses.
Honestly I'd be super happy to hear that Hasselblad is doing both the 150mp and 100mp 33x44 in the A line - why wouldn't you use the industrial side to get the product out with higher margins first. Show a path that has a future, not a repackaging of the existing tech with a new processor.
-Joe
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Just 3 questions:
1. Is anybody nearly informed how big the market is for the 150 MP Medium Format back per year?
2. How many IQ4 150 MP backs has Phase One approximately sold worldwide until now?
3. Would it be financially interesting for Hasselblad to decrease the price for the 100 MP and the HC/HCD lenses to increase the sale numbers?
That are your opinions, please? :)
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You may want to start by taking a deep(er) breath before posting.
My breathing is fine. But, Thanks for your concern.
You might want to engage in better fact checking and less speculation presented as if they are facts before posting. But, it's just a suggestion and internet forums aren't a great place to obtain facts and avoid idle speculation. So you have plenty of company.
I fail to see in what you write much but an acknowledgement that as of today, based on the facts we both seem to like, Hasselblad isn’t showing us any sign contradicting the fact that the H platform has been on a standstill for years, nor any sign that it is going to change moving forward.
Well, you're at at least half right. One of us likes facts.
As far as signs of life, this thread was started with a post based on false premises; one of which was that "Hasselblad remembered they made the H platform, But all we got was a new 920k dot screen". I corrected that false assertion (along with many others along the way) with the fact that the H6D display was always that resolution and there was not screen update, just few minor enhancements. If the H line is "dead", as you continually claim, why would they make any upgrades to the current line at all? Seems like a bit of a nuisance for Hasselblad to make those minor changes if there is no longer an interest in continuing the line. Why bother?
The fact that you and Joe continue to ignore is that both Phase One and Hasselblad introduced their newest models in 2018. Phase One with a 150 MP sensor and Hasselblad a new H6D 400 MP multi-shot model to replace the older H5D 200 MP multi-shot. Those of us that use multi-shot certainly appreciate the newest model, but since it isn't of interest to you; you simply ignore it as if it never happened. It doesn't count, as far as you're concerned, toward Hasselblad showing a commitment to the "H" line of cameras stemming from the fact, that while Hasselblad gave me exactly what I (and others) wanted and use regularly, it wasn't what you (and others) wanted.
Therefore, in your eyes, the whole line "has been at a standstill for years" and you "would actively recommend against buying in the H platform at this stage". You simply have zero interest in what might be the best choice for other photographers needs. If you don't get the 150 MP sensor that you want, then the entire "H" line of products is "dead" and it's a "sad" situation for everyone. Because you seem to believe that what you want must be what everyone wants. I'm not laboring under that delusion.
Besides, no manufacturer makes what everyone wants; It doesn't mean that an entire product line is dead as a result of that fact. And you may have noticed that new medium format models are measured in years between models
The medium format DSLR market has multiple players each looking to differentiate themselves. What NONE of the manufacturers have done is just try to compete by offering the same camera designs, features, and specs. So let's get some broader objective context to this discussion of what companies are doing to compete.
The market currently looks like this and I can see the appeal of each product line to individual photographers with differing wants, needs, and preferences:
- Pentax offers one 50 MP DSLR model announced in 2014 ($4,997) of excellent quality, a broad range of excellent lenses that includes seven zoom and two macro lenses at affordable prices compared to competitors. They offer great value for the money.
- Leica has one brand new 64 MP S3 model ($18,995) with a unique sensor and format of 30 x 45 mm. Excellent 35mm DSLR type design and handling and outstanding lenses with an adapter to mount Hasselblad H lenses. It has just arrived after being previewed by Leica in 2018, but offers those that prefer that system a major upgrade from the previous 37.5 MP model.
- Hasselblad offers 3 DSLR models based on their latest (2016) H6D which has a new user interface and overhauled electronics platform. 2 were announced in 2016: a 50 MP ($14,495) and 100 MP ($32,995). 1 model was announced in 2018 ($47,995) with three capture modes from 100 to 400 MP. A very broad range of excellent lenses and accessories including a unique tilt/shift adapter. All models can shoot film or digital. There is also an H6X model that accepts other manufacturer's digital backs, film backs, or serves as a 2nd camera body for film use or backup. There are also 2 unique 50 MP mirrorless models with their own range of lenses and the ability to mount "H" lenses via adapter.
- Phase One offers 3 DSLR models announced in 2018 based on an upgraded version of their original 2015 XF camera platform: a 100 MP ($47,990 kit with one prime lens), 150 MP ($51,990 kit with one prime lens), and 150 MP Achromatic ($54,990 kit with one prime lens). They also have an excellent lens line. The backs can also be mounted on their new XT technical camera which integrates back control of electronic shuttered lenses.
I can see that buying into and using any of these systems could provide satisfaction and great images for an individual photographer. It just depends on their priorities and preferences... and of course their budget. Then again, I'm not looking at it with blinders on regarding one system.
On the other hand I believe that I, as an owner, acknowledges the positive stuff as well as the issues. I find this an objective approach.
I think that Fuji is the only reasonable choice these days...
I think that we will have to leave it to the readers to decide which of us is objective and factual regarding: 1) the state of the medium format market, 2) Hasselblad and every other manufacturer's place in it, and 3) what photographers should consider buying.
Facts can be painful when you start with a pre-conceived idea about what they should be.
Yes. Yes they can be. Sorry if I've caused any pain by correcting factual errors.
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The fact that you and Joe continue to ignore is that both Phase One and Hasselblad introduced their newest models in 2018. Phase One with a 150 MP sensor and Hasselblad a new H6D 400 MP multi-shot model to replace the older H5D 200 MP multi-shot. Those of us that use multi-shot certainly appreciate the newest model, but since it isn't of interest to you; you simply ignore it as if it never happened. It doesn't count, as far as you're concerned, toward Hasselblad showing a commitment to the "H" line of cameras stemming from the fact, that while Hasselblad gave me exactly what I (and others) wanted and use regularly, it wasn't what you (and others) wanted.
I welcome the release of the H6D 400mp. But what Hasselblad did is just update, I would argue with a 2 years delay, their historical line up. I find this to be a fairly minor release. The main change is a bit more resolution and I am unclear what real world value this has for the people who were already using a previous generation MS for the typical reproduction applications done on tripod at low ISO at a very slow pace anyway.
Therefore, in your eyes, the whole line "has been at a standstill for years" and you "would actively recommend against buying in the H platform at this stage". You simply have zero interest in what might be the best choice for other photographers needs. If you don't get the 150 MP sensor that you want, then the entire "H" line of products is "dead" and it's a "sad" situation for everyone. Because you seem to believe that what you want must be what everyone wants. I'm not laboring under that delusion. Besides, no manufacturer makes what everyone wants; It doesn't mean that an entire product line is dead as a result of that fact. And you may have noticed that new medium format models are measured in years between models
Among the items I suggested Hasselblad should improve the move to the 150mp sensor isn't important because of the increase of resolution that, I agree, is of secondary importance. The key value of the 150mp sensor is its better behavior on tech cameras.
But regardless, the change of sensor is just one of the suggestions I made, and probably the least critical one for the H system. The ability to focus accurately anywhere in the frame would be 10 order of magnitudes more important for the system. It would move it from a mid aperture/no subject movement/let's cross fingers it may be in critical focus tool to one usable in a much broader set of situations.
It's pretty clear by now that you prefer to focus on the few positive things Hasselblad has been doing and to ignore the elephant in the room, no issues with that.
Cheers,
Bernard
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But regardless, the change of sensor is just one of the suggestions I made, and probably the least critical one for the H system. The ability to focus accurately anywhere in the frame would be 10 order of magnitudes more important for the system. It would move it from a mid aperture/no subject movement/let's cross fingers it may be in critical focus tool to one usable in a much broader set of situations.
I think that pretty much is the problem with all mirror based systems and the reason why there are only 2 bodies made at all today....and why even DSLRs are going away...
I just bought the X1DII which can focus faster then H or phase XF....and it generally gets killed for its AF performance....
I bought it because of IQ and color and because it still is way beyond any MF system i ever shot with in terms of speed and handling....but most people today don’t remember and don’t want to hassle and mostly also cant afford to hassle....people are more likely to hold still if they are shot with film these days.....my iPhone rarely misses focus....
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I welcome the release of the H6D 400mp. But what Hasselblad did is just update, I would argue with a 2 years delay, their historical line up. I find this to be a fairly minor release. The main change is a bit more resolution and I am unclear what real world value this has for the people who were already using a previous generation MS for the typical reproduction applications done on tripod at low ISO at a very slow pace anyway.
It may seem a trivial engineering matter to you to move a sensor of that size by 2.3 microns with the precision with which Hasselblad does it. I can assure you it's not so trivial. If it were, It would have been released along with the H6D-100c. I mean, it's not like Hasselblad just didn't care about the extra $15,000 that they collect for the multi-shot version. This sensor is larger than any other they have ever utilized in a multi-shot configuration and to make it even more challenging, it's moving in the smallest increments they've ever done.
It isn't done thru camera firmware moving a floating 5-axis IBIS unit and using the electronic shutter in the sensor, the way smaller cameras accomplish this. Hasselblad uses a patented mechanism that has undergone multiple revisions over the years. It utilizes a hefty metal plate with microscopic tracks inside of which the sensor is moved by separate Piezo motors for each axis. It's done this way to ensure nanometer precision, retain perfect parallel alignment, and to compensate for any thermal fluctuations. They are individually calibrated and function reliably without loss of precision under continuous high volume shooting. It utilizes the lens shutter for each shot, so flash usage is not a problem.
It is controlled by the Phocus software, so it is always tethered. When triggered, there is a short delay while an internal calibration check is performed after which capture occurs. Each capture is checked in real time for exposure consistency and a warning appears if there is any issue. The results are well worth the small amount of added capture time.
I've done the comparisons many times with single-shot makes of every description. For shooting product in a commercial advertising environment the advantages of 4-shot are not hard to see. The elimination of any visible color moire or aliasing in any fabric, packaging, or text included in the shot means a few minutes of extra capture time saves a lot of time in post and editing. Plus, you deliver cleaner images, with less noise, and that look sharper. This means less cost downstream, delivering a better quality product, happier clients, and repeat business.
And if the client wants to pay extra for 6-shot resolution files that can be repurposed and resized for a variety of uses, sweet! Not many things that can be added to an invoice anymore and that is sad. And for doing art reproduction, nothing is better. As a quick exercise, check out side by side comparisons of single and multi-shot images from Pentax, Sony, Panasonic, and Olympus over at DP Review.
So, it may be "just" an "update" to you or "a fairly minor release" in your eyes. For my needs, it isn't so minor! It's a differentiator that makes better images and money! I do understand why you or anyone might want the 150 MP sensor, for their needs. Especially if you're using a tech cam where it significantly reduces the need for lens cast corrections. So, please stop minimizing and diminishing the value of tools that other people (like me) value and use everyday and the manufacturer's efforts in producing them for me. Thank you.
The "real world value" of the H6D-400c MS, for those of us that were using the H5D-200c MS, is: a larger sensor which provides a wider angle of view with wide-angle lenses, even better dynamic range, more resolution (2X the number of pixels = 40% more resolution), and all of the nice user interface improvements that come with the H6D which makes for a better experience when using the camera for more conventional single-shot shooting.
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The ability to focus accurately anywhere in the frame would be 10 order of magnitudes more important for the system. It would move it from a mid aperture/no subject movement/let's cross fingers it may be in critical focus tool to one usable in a much broader set of situations.
Well, now that's a whole new curve in the road we've been on! One that would require another lengthy essay; that you'll be happy to hear, I have no interest in pursuing right now as this is just getting really super tedious.
Suffice it to say, that this has been an issue for medium format DSLR cameras of all makes, all models, and every generation since the beginning of time. Mostly due to physical optical geometry constraints and most of all cost!
Hasselblad attempted to improve on the problem 10 years ago with True Focus and has improved on it since then. But there are no easy answers to be found here.
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It's pretty clear by now that you prefer to focus on the few positive things Hasselblad has been doing
It's shameful. I know. And you had to go and point it out in public! I am embarrassed!
and to ignore the elephant in the room, no issues with that.
Thank goodness. Now we can all get along!
In my own mind, what I try to focus on is getting the job done with what I have currently available and let the future take care of itself; as it will probably arrive full of surprises and sooner than I am ready for it!
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Now the DJI connection is an easy one to point out some issues on.
Well. Knock yourself out and I hope that you get satisfaction from it.
I could care less. I know almost nothing about drones or DJI.
Have fun.
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Great, it seems that you have convinced yourself that you were right.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Just 3 questions:
1. Is anybody nearly informed how big the market is for the 150 MP Medium Format back per year?
2. How many IQ4 150 MP backs has Phase One approximately sold worldwide until now?
3. Would it be financially interesting for Hasselblad to decrease the price for the 100 MP and the HC/HCD lenses to increase the sale numbers?
That are your opinions, please? :)
Hey George,
1 & 2 don't matter as a number. The 150mp is a sensor that has a few other huge upsides that would apply. It's a faster chip, and with BSI the pixel wells are shallower & the cross talk in a tech camera is greatly reduced. 50% more pixels is big for some folks, but it also allows for the camera to stand above the GFX 100 product. The key thing in my mind is focusing on the competition with Phase on the top of the market, not pushing back at the mirrorless 100mp one (which it can't win).
3 is an easy no. Playing the price game doesn't gain Hasselblad anything. It would further depreciates the existing used market and cuts any profits that they need to survive. I can't see Hasselblad having the bandwidth to have a bunch of H sales when their entire mfg is focused on the X platforms.
:)
-Joe
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Tech, i'm going to lock this as you seem to be unwilling to acknowledge any issues with Hasselblad and what they've done over the last 5 years. Hopefully you're in a position to continue to purchased their products new & at full price.
I engaged with you when you asked what I thought Hasselblad could do better on the H platform. Everything from minor things, to major ones, but it's of no interest to you. We're going to agree to disagree.
-Joe