Covid 19 Updates Part 2

[Craig Lamson]

You can call it feeding your people BS to keep them calm. I call it total incompetence at the top. Here in Canada we've been given the same story from day 1 from all levels of government...no baby spoon feeding...just the truth. What would you rather have from your leaders...but of feel good information or the truth? Maybe now I'm starting to understand why the US is so anti-government...they've been lied to too many time.

I’m quite happy with our leadership. Our people got both feel good and hard fact.  Can you imagine if Trump had told the country at 15 cases that he was shutting it all down then?   Yea, that’s a real option.  People had the option of making up their own minds how to prepare or not.  And regardless of the so called leadership you say you demand, that is what the outcome would have been in any case....people making decisions. 

You don’t like it, good for you. You are welcome to your opinion. 

[Craig Lamson]

It's that what you call it?

That’s exactly what happened. The situation changed daily, as did Trump’ s response. That’s what intellectually honest people do...their positions change as new and better data becomes available. 

[hogloff]

That’s exactly what happened. The situation changed daily, as did Trump’ s response. That’s what intellectually honest people do...their positions change as new and better data becomes available.

Oh...and what data made Trump change from calling it a "Democratic hoax" to "It will be a victory if all we loose is 100,000 people".

[LesPalenik]

That's not possible, without a vaccine. 

It's just not.  You cant expect the world to shut down for a year.  In a month we need to get back to work, or the economic damage will cause more damage and death then this virus.

There are quite a few countries that recognized early the virus dangers and they didn't allow it to mushroom like in USA and Western Europe. For example, Singapore, Taiwan, Slovakia.

As to thinking out of the box, Germany is now floating a "hybrid"  stay-at-home concept where they would force the older segment of population to stay at home and the younger groups with a lower risk of infection could go back to work and other activities.

[LesPalenik]

That’s exactly what happened. The situation changed daily, as did Trump’ s response. That’s what intellectually honest people do...their positions change as new and better data becomes available.

The facts and consequences were clear from the very beginning  to all intelligent observers.
I think, a more accurate description would be "Trump's understanding of the situation changed daily."

[Craig Lamson]

The facts and consequences were clear from the very beginning  to all intelligent observers.
I think, a more accurate description would be "Trump's understanding of the situation changed daily."

No, actually they were not “clear” from the beginning.  It fact they were cloudy as heck.  The timeline of events shows just that, worldwide. 

[Craig Lamson]

There are quite a few countries that recognized early the virus dangers and they didn't allow it to mushroom like in USA and Western Europe. For example, Singapore, Taiwan, Slovakia.

As to thinking out of the box, Germany is now floating a "hybrid"  stay-at-home concept where they would force the older segment of population to stay at home and the younger groups with a lower risk of infection could go back to work and other activities.

Different countries have the ability to force its citizens to do things other countries can’t, like the US.  It’s not so much timing as it is the ability to dictate behavior.

[Craig Lamson]

Oh...and what data made Trump change from calling it a "Democratic hoax" to "It will be a victory if all we loose is 100,000 people".

Are you really that uninformed that you think that Trump called the virus a “Democratic Hoax”. Please, this is beyond silly on your part.

And what changed?  Actual on the ground events, not models.

[Alan Klein]

There were news conferences where medical experts came on right after Trump and corrected his fabrications. I saw those conferences live...nothing to do with your instance about fake news.

It's such BS that Trump did not know anything about this virus back in February. He had all his medical experts providing every piece of information he needed to make the right decision...but instead he came onto nation TV and played down the virus as if it was the common cold. South Korea was under major attack in February and took action...was Trump busy watching the three stooges on TV rather than taking notice of what was happening.

There is zero excuse for this major blunder that will cause many thousands of deaths that could have been prevented if there was someone with intelligence at the head of the helm.

While the Democrats were busy with political impeachment, Trump instituted a shutdown and ban of travel from China BEFORE February.  The idea that he put American economy before their health was not true. Major disruption started even then.  True, he didn't shut down the whole country at that point.  But no one knew it was that bad at that time.  Yet he implemented powerful restrictions. People here are just selectively remembering.   

This is from a NY Times article published Jan 31st:

Trump Administration Restricts Entry Into U.S. From China
The travel disruption sent shocks through the stock market and rattled industries that depend on the flow of goods and people between the world’s two largest economies.
Moving to counter the spreading coronavirus outbreak, the Trump administration said Friday (Jan 31st) that it would bar entry by most foreign nationals who had recently visited China and put some American travelers under a quarantine as it declared a rare public health emergency.

The temporary restrictions followed announcements by American Airlines, Delta Air Lines and United Airlines that they would suspend air service between the United States and China for several months.

The travel disruption sent shocks through the stock market and rattled industries that depend on the flow of goods and people between the world’s two largest economies. Planning was upended for companies across a vast global supply chain, from Apple to John Deere, the tractor company.

The S&P 500 suffered its worst loss since October, falling 1.8 percent, as the spread of the virus — and the increasingly urgent efforts by companies and governments to contain it — fanned fears of an economic slowdown.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/31/business/china-travel-coronavirus.html

[hogloff]

Are you really that uninformed that you think that Trump called the virus a “Democratic Hoax”. Please, this is beyond silly on your part.

And what changed?  Actual on the ground events, not models.

Don't know what you watch, but I saw him right there in one of his campaigns surrounded by his sheep saying exactly that. How can you even defend this guy when he's right there on video with his lips flapping and getting cheers from his sheep.

[JoeKitchen]

It's a month now. A couple weeks ago you were saying we need to get back to work in two weeks or we'll start seeing guns come out as people are starving.

We will. 

Some one near me killed himself right after shooting his girlfriend over loosing his job.  Thankfully she survived. 

[LesPalenik]

No, actually they were not “clear” from the beginning.  It fact they were cloudy as heck.  The timeline of events shows just that, worldwide.

Clear to most scientists, cloudy to most politicians.

[hogloff]

While the Democrats were busy with political impeachment, Trump instituted a shutdown and ban of travel from China BEFORE February.  The idea that he put American economy before their health was not true. Major disruption started even then.  True, he didn't shut down the whole country at that point.  But no one knew it was that bad at that time.  Yet he implemented powerful restrictions. People here are just selectively remembering.   

This is from a NY Times article published Jan 31st:

Trump Administration Restricts Entry Into U.S. From China
The travel disruption sent shocks through the stock market and rattled industries that depend on the flow of goods and people between the world’s two largest economies.
Moving to counter the spreading coronavirus outbreak, the Trump administration said Friday (Jan 31st) that it would bar entry by most foreign nationals who had recently visited China and put some American travelers under a quarantine as it declared a rare public health emergency.

The temporary restrictions followed announcements by American Airlines, Delta Air Lines and United Airlines that they would suspend air service between the United States and China for several months.

The travel disruption sent shocks through the stock market and rattled industries that depend on the flow of goods and people between the world’s two largest economies. Planning was upended for companies across a vast global supply chain, from Apple to John Deere, the tractor company.

The S&P 500 suffered its worst loss since October, falling 1.8 percent, as the spread of the virus — and the increasingly urgent efforts by companies and governments to contain it — fanned fears of an economic slowdown.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/31/business/china-travel-coronavirus.html

Alan...I love seeing that market dive. I got out of the market ( well 75% out ) back in February as I was planning a bunch of travel and didn't want to be exposed when away. I was more concerned about the usual shinannagans during the run up to the fall election.

Now I have money sitting just waiting to re-enter...drop Dow Jones...drop.

[hogloff]

We will. 

Some one near me killed himself right after shooting his girlfriend over loosing his job.  Thankfully she survived.

Suicides have been on the rise in the US...bucking the trend in other developed countries. There is much more behind this increase than just this virus. Something rotting deep within the system.

[JoeKitchen]

There are quite a few countries that recognized early the virus dangers and they didn't allow it to mushroom like in USA and Western Europe. For example, Singapore, Taiwan, Slovakia.

As to thinking out of the box, Germany is now floating a "hybrid"  stay-at-home concept where they would force the older segment of population to stay at home and the younger groups with a lower risk of infection could go back to work and other activities.

The Asian countries, outside of China, certainly handled it better.  However, this was because H1N1 caused them to have already developed a testing infrastructure.  They were lucky due to this. 

I am all for the German method you describe, and think that is the best method.  I even mentioned something like this before, a couple of weeks ago.  Of course, we will need funding to provide the support to those older individuals so they can have proper protection from this.  I would prefer this to happen on a local level supported by the federal government, which I think will be better at organizing it. 

[JoeKitchen]

Suicides have been on the rise in the US...bucking the trend in other developed countries. There is much more behind this increase than just this virus. Something rotting deep within the system.

Sorry, but you're wrong. 

First, suicides have been decreasing overall in the last couple of years.  This has been reported on in several news media here.  Yes, the main stories you will se if you research this are about the increase over the past two decades.  But on a year over year basis, it have been improving. 

Second, with this specific example, he was noticeably upset over loosing his job and expressed this as the reason for shooting his girlfriend to his girlfriend before shooting her. 

[LesPalenik]

While the Democrats were busy with political impeachment, Trump instituted a shutdown and ban of travel from China BEFORE February.  The idea that he put American economy before their health was not true. Major disruption started even then.  True, he didn't shut down the whole country at that point.  But no one knew it was that bad at that time.  Yet he implemented powerful restrictions. People here are just selectively remembering.   

That was indeed a good move by Trump. He should have banned also flights from Italy, Spain and France.
Interestingly, also Italy announced on January 31 a ban on flights from China, but that alone didn't help them. Without keeping a safe distance from each other, the other factors played a bigger role in spreading the virus than just the flight ban.

[LesPalenik]

Sorry, but you're wrong. 

First, suicides have been decreasing overall in the last couple of year.  This has been reported on in several news media here.  Second, with this specific example, he was noticeably upset over loosing his job and expressed this as the reason for shooting his girlfriend to his girlfriend before shooting her.

In the last couple of years the situation was totally different than in this year. And we haven't seen anything yet.

[BernardLanguillier]

Bernard, really? 

You only pay attention to Trump's failures, in hindsight only, while acting as if everyone else did the right thing.  This is just not the case, in the West at least.  Every single western country did nothing to prepare for this.  No one was able to foresee this before Italy. 

Like I said, give me one article that quotes one USA politician, on either side, that talks with the brevity that we are talking about this now but pre-Italy.  Just give me one, and I'll admit you are right and I am wrong. 

Just one USA politician back in February that was calling for actions up to the intensity of what we are doing now. 

If you're so correct, this is an easy win for you.

Joe,

I won't enter in an endless debate with you on this, you are smart enough to understant but I'll just point out a few aspects
- blaming China for the inaccuracy of their reporting: hilarious... Trump and his supporters have been calling China untrustworthy on pretty much every matter for years... but you claime to have believed their data on the corona spread... more than a month ago an article from credible scientist in the US proposed a very credible estimate of more than 15 times the official numbers of contamination and casualities,
- many Western countries were caught off-guard: true, but Trump continued to deny the obvious for weeks after plenty of obvious evidence from Europe was visible. the point isn't the prepardness - although there is a lot to say on this - but they way he kept denying the scientific facts. Every day matters here and your attempts to paint everything in a fuzzy light is not intellectually honest
- you seem to think that the criticism I and other made of Trump's action is political: that's the little box I am talking about. You were not able to look at the impeachment process in any other way than it being a political plot, and you keep making the same mistake again and again. Open your eyes, look, consider facts and you will see with obvious clarity a pattern emerge where the truth is ignored, where scientists and doctors's perfectly valid inputs and ignored when they don't match the political agenda of Trmup, where lies are made again and again to support a view of the world that imposes an extreme right wing agenda on the course of society, where the press is prevented from challenging authorities and simply from asking questions that highlight shortcomings (there were amazing videos yesterday showing how perfectly legitmate questions from CNN were simply not let be asked), where...

You don't need to answer me, it's really between you and your conscience. But make no mistake, the non/delayed actions of Trump will have resulted int he death of thousand of people. And you, keeping supporting him, share some responsibility in those deaths.

Done here.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Alan Klein]

Clear to most scientists, cloudy to most politicians.

It's not cloudy to politicians.  They are looking at additional things beside science, such as economic.  Scientists, who are often very wrong with their conclusions, are parochial in their thinking.   They don't consider other factors that are important to society as well.  Also, they don't answer to the body politic; they are not elected. They are not our leaders.