Covid 19 Updates Part 2

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

This is where strong leadership plays how a society deals with catastrophes. History is littered with great leadership from people at the top that saw their societies through troubled times. I know here in Canada we are getting the same message from all levels of government as well as the medical experts. I see no political maneuvering...i fact the various political parties are all in sync. We have out Prime Minister addressing the nation daily with the same message as our province premiers...same message as our health officials, same message as our mayors. No fighting...no political ones up on each other.

Leadership at the top make it or break it at trying times.

Fully agree, and that's similar to how things are evolving in the Netherlands.

When our Minister for Medical Care & Sports collapsed (due to being overworked) while being interrogated by parliament, our PM immediately appointed a replacement from the opposition party, someone who had served in that same position during an earlier coalition government and had a proven track record.

The government follows the Scientific eveidence to make poliy decisions, and are therefore consistent in the communication to the people, all people.

[JoeKitchen]

Of course the population of that region is around 60 million - so we might expect around 60,000 people to die a month anyway - so possibly 48000 urns is not unexpected......

You have to read the articles I posted.  They did a pretty thorough analysis of deaths in the region in years prior and subtracted that from the amount of urns delivered.  This got them around 26K total deaths. 

Additionally, others have noted that the creameries have been burning non-stop, and if you figure out the capacity, you get around the same number. 

Last, a doctor on another forum who deals with emergency respiratory issues relating to smoke inhalation in a fire prone area says they are having a hard time dealing with the issues from this virus with modern equipment.  He very much doubts China had anywhere near 3000 deaths, especially with their much older gear.  He actually would be surprised if it was just 30,000. 

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/live-blog/2020-04-01-coronavirus-news-n1173686/ncrd1173701#liveBlogHeader

Russia sends plane loaded with medical supplies to the U.S.

Russian President Vladimir Putin offered the supplies in a phone call with President Donald Trump on Monday, the U.S. president said at a press conference later that day. On Wednesday Russia loaded up a large An-124 cargo plane — the Russian military’s largest — and dispatched it to the U.S.

[JoeKitchen]

Joe - about two weeks ago you said the American public (at least I presume you mean the ones you know of) would not put up with travel and freedom restrictions for more than about two weeks max.  Are things breaking down around you, and do you think the latest from Trump about this going on for a long time will lead to an immediate breakdown in society?  I thought at the time you had a much lower opinion of the typical US citizen than I do - and I hope that is the case.

Jim

Well, there are plenty of parties being thrown in Philly even though there is a mandatory stay at home order.  Cops are having a hard time clamping down on these things.  The parks are getting pretty filled as well, not to mention in other cities too.  I read about a massive bon fire party in Maryland happening just this weekend.

Combine that with the fact that in many major cities, including mine, criminals are being released in large numbers because of "COVID-19" (of course not because of Democratic policies of lowering the prison population like our DA Larry Krasner has been calling for) and gun stores are not considered essential.  You go through ammo a lot faster then you think, especially if your arm is not great. 

I read in West Chester, NY they even started to release many sex offenders and pedophiles.  I can see the argument with releasing those whom committed petty crimes like burglary or low level drug offenses but pedophiles, come on.  Whats next, serial killers?  Oh, and the answer to any potential crimes being committed by these criminals (since these same places are not arresting anyone) is the public officials asking them to please not commit any crimes.  This literally happened in, I believe, Maryland; a public figure got on TV and pleaded with criminals not to commit any crimes as if they would actually listen.  LOL

Throw in a food chain issue, such as those Whole Foods workers striking yesterday, and you have a perfect recipe for panic. 

What many people don't realize, because they were never taught it, was throughout the Great Depression there were many riots in the USA due to just this.  When people become desperate, they do desperate things. 

If we go up to a 32% unemployment figure where people are hungry, and with many more criminals on the streets without arrests being made, what do you think is going to happen?

Seriously, you guys are being foolish to think we are just so much better today then we were in years past, which is how everyone thinks at every time in history.  We are wealthy and can afford to be better versions of ourselves.  Take that wealth away and it all goes to shit.  Yes, eventually it will work itself out and people will realize that working together leads to better results then rioting, but in the beginning of a break down there will be panic.  Cooperation wont come until later. 

Do I think it will end the country, no.  Do I think what Trump did was right, maybe.  I still think it is overblown though, especially with the cost to the economy. 

Do I think it was a good idea to let criminals out of the jails, hell no!  Do I think stopping arrests and asking criminal nicely to not commit crimes is a good idea, hell no.  But these are local issues, not Trump's fault. 

[JoeKitchen]

There should be no reason for disruption of food supply, it just takes cooperation.

Okay, so let me ask you a question. 

Yesterday Whole Foods, which is owned by Amazon and a major part of the food supply chain for at home deliveries, had a strike.  This effects people like Alan who don't want to go out to do any food shopping.  The simple solution, in my mind, here would be to fire every single one who striked and hire new employees, whom would be easy to find considering the current economic environment.  This would keep this food chain active and send a pretty strong message that now, during a major emergency, is not time to be selfish and just think of yourself, cooperation as you put it. 

Would you support this action? 

[Alan Klein]

There should be no reason for disruption of food supply, it just takes cooperation.

Can't seem to get deliveries here in New Jersey. My wife and I want to stay home and out of the stores and lower our risks.  If the deaths really escalate, no one's going to want to go out including workers. Then what?

[Manoli]

Why were they sacked ?
What would you do ?

Amazon has fired a worker at its Staten Island warehouse after the man organized a walkout on Monday to demand greater protections from the company amid the coronavirus outbreak.  Father-of-three, Chris Smalls, 31, a management assistant at the facility, was laid off from his job following Monday's strike. He had worked for the company for five years.
An estimated 50 to 60 employees joined the walkout at the New York facility demanding that it be shut down and cleaned after a worker tested positive for the coronavirus.

Yesterday Whole Foods, which is owned by Amazon and a major part of the food supply for at home deliveries, had a strike.  This effect people like Alan who don't want to go out.  The simple solution, in my mind, here would to fire every single one who strike and hire new employees, which would be easy to find considering the environment.  This would keep this food chain active and send a pretty strong message that now, during a major emergency, is not time to be selfish and just think of yourself.  Cooperation as you put it. 

Would you support this action? 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Okay, so let me ask you a question. 

Yesterday Whole Foods, which is owned by Amazon and a major part of the food supply for at home deliveries, had a strike.  This effect people like Alan who don't want to go out.  The simple solution, in my mind, here would to fire every single one who strike and hire new employees, which would be easy to find considering the environment.  This would keep this food chain active and send a pretty strong message that now, during a major emergency, is not time to be selfish and just think of yourself.  Cooperation as you put it. 

Would you support this action?

Why did they strike?
Are there no alternatives being developed? It seems like a good time to make a competitive difference.


In my country, some restaurants, who have no customers anyway, are preparing meals for whoever wants them delivered. While in Isolation myself (suspected Covid-19, no test available for mild cases) I ordered Pizza and a 4-Chocolat shake when my taste had returned enough to make a difference in what I ate. Strict protocol, payment in advance, do not open the door until the bell is rung by the delivery guy/gal who placed the delivery near the front door while waiting at a distance. GPS Track and Trace made it easy to know when to expect that my delivery would take place (<15 minutes).

[Alan Klein]

Iceland lab's testing suggests 50% of coronavirus cases have no symptoms.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/01/europe/iceland-testing-coronavirus-intl/index.html

They just set up a testing area in my County.  The notice didn't explain who should go in.

[JoeKitchen]

Why were they sacked ?
What would you do ?

Well you only posted the worker's side of the story, and not Amazon's.  Amazon said that this worker who organized the strike tested positive himself and continued to come into work after being told not to.  Also, the walk out was only 15 people or so, not 50. 

Who to believe, hard to say, but I am not just going to believe the worker because he is a worker. 

If what Amazon says happened is the case, then that guy deserved to be canned. 

If what the worker said happened happened, hard to say.  Dont forget this guy was also asking for hazard pay.  I forget what this was, but the Whole Foods workers want their salary doubled, which I think is being selfish and deserving of being fired at a time like this. 

I see nothing wrong with asking for additional protective measures considering the environment.  It would be in the company's best interest anyway and would help them remain active.  But it is likely we are not getting the full story here. 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

They just set up a testing area in my County.  The notice didn't explain who should go in.

Which is needlessly confusing.

P.S. At this stage, in most countries, it is better to reserve the test capacity for Healthcare workers as long as there is a shortage in tests. Allocate for effect, not for selfish reasons. Only when there is a possibility to contain a wider outbreak by identifying a local source and all people he/she may have been in contact with, only then it makes sense to test non-medical personnel (and people in care for the elderly or mentally affected people).

[JoeKitchen]

Why did they strike?
Are there no alternatives being developed? It seems like a good time to make a competitive difference.


In my country, some restaurants, who have no customers anyway, are preparing meals for whoever wants them delivered. While in Isolation myself (suspected Covid-19, no test available for mild cases) I ordered Pizza and a 4-Chocolat shake when my taste had returned enough to make a difference in what I ate. Strict protocol, payment in advance, do not open the door until the bell is rung by the delivery guy/gal who placed the delivery near the front door while waiting at a distance. GPS Track and Trace made it easy to know when to expect that my delivery would take place (<15 minutes).

They want additional protective measures and the right to call in sick, which I see nothing wrong and the company already provided them with.  Of course you need a doctor's note to call in sick, which is to be expected. 

The big sticking point though is they also want their salary doubled, which is out of the question.  When looking at a possible 1/3 of the country being unemployed, you're not getting your salary doubled. 

[chez]

We will have to agree to disagree here. 

Fact is, we cant tell which countries, regardless of leadership or position, would succumb to the pressure of hunger.  France was the wealthiest country in Europe and revolted twice in the 1800s.  England meanwhile was poor throughout the middle ages, dealt with a little ice age, invasion attempts and thrived. 

But then again, one of the most counterfeited items during WWII were British food ration passes (I forget the exact term for these).  Even the Romans understood that hungry people start revolutions and gave away free food. 

As was said before, “there are only nine meals between mankind and anarchy.”  You'd be foolish not to heed this warning.

Surely the riches country in the world won't let its citizens starve. Who's going hungry here.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

They want additional protective measures and the right to call in sick, which I see nothing wrong and the company already provided them with.  Of course you need a doctor's note to call in sick, which is to be expected.

For what that's worth.

The big sticking point though is they also want their salary doubled, which is out of the question.  When looking at a possible 1/3 of the country being unemployed, you're not getting your salary doubled.

Maybe it is. Depends on how many additional islands/planes/houses Jeff Bezos cannot buy if he did that, and how fair a wage these folks are being payed.

P.S. I'm still wondering, if Michael Bloomberg had given every American citizen 1 million dollars, he would have payed less than he did for his failed election campaign, have secured his election, and solved an economic crisis ...

[JoeKitchen]

Surely the riches country in the world won't let its citizens starve. Who's going hungry here.

My point is that it does not take that much disrupt the food chain, and large governments, anywhere in the world, are often slow to react to anything. 

If people cant get food because of strikes and too many individuals calling out sick causing stores to close down, things will go to hell a lot faster then the reaction time from the government. 

Most only have three days of food in their house.  With the hoarding recently, maybe the average is a little higher now, but not that much.  If my local stores close, I would predict looting would start before the local government actually figured out how to solve the problem. 

And once looting of a grocery starts, it spreads to other types of stores real fast. 

By the way, if anyone thinks I'm crazy here, go back and look at what happened in Ferguson, and bare in mind that there was no major catastrophe at the time.  People were not starving, they were not dying, they were not being attacked, it was a media driven panic and looting happened pretty damn fast. 

[JoeKitchen]

For what that's worth.

Maybe it is. Depends on how many additional islands/planes/houses Jeff Bezos cannot buy if he did that, and how fair a wage these folks are being payed.

P.S. I'm still wondering, if Michael Bloomberg had given every American citizen 1 million dollars, he would have payed less than he did for his failed election campaign, have secured his election, and solved an economic crisis ...

Your not being serious here, are you?  Please tell me no. 

That was one hell of a math error on the $1M per citizen statement.  It would have worked out to be more like just $2. 

And pretty much the same thing with Bezos.  If you divided his salary (not his wealth which is almost entirely held up in his company and cant just be withdrawn) amongst all his employees, it probably would be in the cents per employee range. 

I read a funny story about Rockefeller that in his later years, he always carried plenty of nickels around with him.  Then, when someone would complain to him that he was too rich and that he should spread his wealth around, Rockefeller would give him a nickel.  You see, Rockefeller did the math and figured out that if you divided the population of the country at the time into his total wealth, it would work out to be a nickel per US citizen.  The rich dont have an unlimited amount of money; we cant solve all our problems by just taxing them. 

[Robert Roaldi]

Most only have three days of food in their house.  With the hoarding recently, maybe the average is a little higher now, but not that much.  If my local stores close, I would predict looting would start before the local government actually figured out how to solve the problem.

It's a dilemma. We've been on a multi-decade project to remove government influence because freedom, taxes, etc.. We even lowered taxes to constrain government's ability to act. I'm not saying that there was no justification for this, many levels of governance had become ineffective. Maybe we jumped the gun when we said it was ALL bad though. The trouble is that when the time comes that you need a civil authority to manage disaster planning, avoid looting, etc., you don't have one anymore. It's almost as if we forgot why we spent centuries developing these systems.

The USA, UK, Italy, being modern nations with relatively good infrastructure, should have been among the countries that handled this kind of stress best. They chose to act a little late and now the clowns in power are turning to spin to save their jobs, as if saving their jobs is the point. It's not as if we haven't seen this before. There used to be a now quaint phrase, public service. Gone now.

[Alan Klein]

Surely the riches country in the world won't let its citizens starve. Who's going hungry here.

There's plenty of food.  It's distribution and getting it to people that's the problem. 

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... P.S. I'm still wondering, if Michael Bloomberg had given every American citizen 1 million dollars, he would have payed less than he did for his failed election campaign, have secured his election, and solved an economic crisis ...

Ouch!!!

Bye, bye, Bart! 

[JoeKitchen]

It's a dilemma. We've been on a multi-decade project to remove government influence because freedom, taxes, etc.. We even lowered taxes to constrain government's ability to act. I'm not saying that there was no justification for this, many levels of governance had become ineffective. Maybe we jumped the gun when we said it was ALL bad though. The trouble is that when the time comes that you need a civil authority to manage disaster planning, avoid looting, etc., you don't have one anymore. It's almost as if we forgot why we spent centuries developing these systems.

The USA, UK, Italy, being modern nations with relatively good infrastructure, should have been among the countries that handled this kind of stress best. They chose to act a little late and now the clowns in power are turning to spin to save their jobs, as if saving their jobs is the point. It's not as if we haven't seen this before. There used to be a now quaint phrase, public service. Gone now.

I just don't see it like; we are doing too much Monday morning quarterbacking here. 

Disasters are hard to foresee, and no sane person can actually foresee them because they are so unusual.  Those who did make the predictions about this one only seem shrewd because we are no longer paying attention to the 50 or so previous predictions that were so wrong. 

On top of that, I think people have too high of an opinion of government people.  Ben Shapiro often says that people who work in government are the same kind of idiots that work with you at your job, they just happened to be in government.  The older I get, the more and more I realize this is correct.