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Author Topic: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS  (Read 86680 times)

Manoli

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2420 on: October 17, 2020, 07:07:56 am »

European Covid-19 infections to date.


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Chris Kern

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2421 on: October 17, 2020, 10:22:36 am »

European Covid-19 infections to date.

A comparable graphic for the United States (screen capture attached).  The New York Times has an excellent interactive tool which allows readers to toggle among displays of "Hot Spots", "Total Cases", "Deaths", and "Per Capita" COVID-19 cases in each of the states and Puerto Rico, and to zoom in for a closer look.

LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2422 on: October 18, 2020, 10:20:45 pm »

Now, even at a yodel fest in Switzerland.

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The coronavirus pandemic has not deterred the Swiss from sending yodels echoing across their mountain valleys, but a concert attended by 600 people is believed to have made one canton a European virus hotspot. At the late September yodelling event in the rural Schwyz canton, people in the audience were asked to maintain social distancing, but mask-wearing was not required.
"We can't do anything about what happened with this yodelling group. We found out nine days after the performances that several people from the group were infected,"

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/finger-pointed-at-swiss-yodelling-superspreader-concert-1.5147024
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kers

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2423 on: October 21, 2020, 09:25:36 am »

Excess Deaths Associated with COVID-19, by Age and Race and Ethnicity — United States, January 26–October 3, 2020

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6942e2.htm?s_cid=mm6942e2_x

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What is added by this report?

Overall, an estimated 299,028 excess deaths occurred from late January through October 3, 2020, with 198,081 (66%) excess deaths attributed to COVID-19. The largest percentage increases were seen among adults aged 25–44 years and among Hispanic or Latino persons.
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LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2424 on: October 22, 2020, 03:02:27 pm »

1224 covid deaths in USA on Oct 21. More than India (703) and Russia (317) combined.
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2425 on: October 22, 2020, 03:46:41 pm »

1224 covid deaths in USA on Oct 21. More than India (703) and Russia (317) combined.
Do you really believe the numbers out of Russia and India?  In India, people die on the street all the time, no one knows from what.  They're are a tightly populated one billion plus country with people living on top of each other.  Do you believe it's not worse and spreading like wildfire?  Putin the ex-KBG chief is probably hiding the real figures like they tried to hide Chernobyl.

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2426 on: October 22, 2020, 03:47:20 pm »

PS:  Thanks for throwing me a softball.

LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2427 on: October 22, 2020, 03:54:30 pm »

Do you really believe the numbers out of Russia and India?  In India, people die on the street all the time, no one knows from what.  They're are a tightly populated one billion plus country with people living on top of each other.  Do you believe it's not worse and spreading like wildfire?  Putin the ex-KBG chief is probably hiding the real figures like they tried to hide Chernobyl.

You could be right about the unofficial death counts in Russia and India.
Still, how do you explain that a developed nation like USA has so many covid deaths? The US leader said just a couple of  days ago that USA is rounding the corner.

OTOH, somewhere I read that some of the underdeveloped countries started to inflate their covid numbers in order to obtain higher financial WHO aid.
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Chris Kern

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2428 on: October 22, 2020, 03:55:43 pm »

Do you really believe the numbers out of Russia and India?

Fair point: the Russian government probably has a propaganda motivation to under-report deaths from COVID-19 and the Indian government probably isn't able to generate accurate statistics on a nationwide basis.

However, even though there no doubt are significant differences in their methodologies, I think it probably is reasonable to compare death rates in the United States, Europe, and a number of Asian countries (certainly Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, and even China).

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2429 on: October 22, 2020, 05:21:48 pm »

You could be right about the unofficial death counts in Russia and India.
Still, how do you explain that a developed nation like USA has so many covid deaths? The US leader said just a couple of  days ago that USA is rounding the corner.

OTOH, somewhere I read that some of the underdeveloped countries started to inflate their covid numbers in order to obtain higher financial WHO aid.
We should raise our numbers too.  With all the money we're printing, we need a bailout from WHO as well.

The relatively high numbers in the US are bad because of the disease and how we were hit originally.  It is a very infectious disease.  NY and NJ where I live got hit hard in the beginning.  Since then the disease has spread because it infects people who meet other people. People refuse to isolate totally.  That's what's happening in Europe now.  Why is it happening again there if everyone's so knowledgeable about what to do to lessen its spread?  I don't think there's much difference between Europe and the US except timing.  Now it's Europe's turn, again. 

I'd like to study China and other Asian countries to see what they're doing. That's more intriguing.  Of course, with regimes where the population looks to national leadership almost religiously, it's easier to get people to comply with rules.  Americans, with Europeans less so, are too damned independent.  It works well for entrepreneurship and our other liberties.  But it can be harmful in situations like Covid. 

LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2430 on: October 23, 2020, 08:37:44 am »

We should raise our numbers too.  With all the money we're printing, we need a bailout from WHO as well.

The relatively high numbers in the US are bad because of the disease and how we were hit originally.  It is a very infectious disease.  NY and NJ where I live got hit hard in the beginning.  Since then the disease has spread because it infects people who meet other people. People refuse to isolate totally.  That's what's happening in Europe now.  Why is it happening again there if everyone's so knowledgeable about what to do to lessen its spread?  I don't think there's much difference between Europe and the US except timing.  Now it's Europe's turn, again. 

I'd like to study China and other Asian countries to see what they're doing. That's more intriguing.  Of course, with regimes where the population looks to national leadership almost religiously, it's easier to get people to comply with rules.  Americans, with Europeans less so, are too damned independent.  It works well for entrepreneurship and our other liberties.  But it can be harmful in situations like Covid.

Maybe too independent. Recent survey in Germany revealed that 87% of population support mandatory mask wearing and social distancing. Some health clinics are assisted by the army for tracing the infections. In the new infection cases, Germany is doing relatively well, many surrounding countries not so.

BTW, Bill Gates said that C19 disruptions will extend beyond 2021, so we are not rounding the corner,  the worst is yet to come.

https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/coronavirus-news-am-freitag-die-wichtigsten-entwicklungen-zu-sars-cov-2-und-covid-19-a-cea13b69-3aa5-4fe7-a2cd-3a8d5e6c163e
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2431 on: October 23, 2020, 09:46:25 am »

I read yesterday that it's estimated that 50% of Europe's small businesses will go out of business.  That 87% figure might not hold.

LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2432 on: October 23, 2020, 09:58:00 am »

I read yesterday that it's estimated that 50% of Europe's small businesses will go out of business.  That 87% figure might not hold.

50% is an exaggeration. If anything, US small business closures will be higher than the European ones, main reason being that because the legal requirements to form a company in USA are much easier than in many European countries, there are many more restaurants, real-estate offices, department stores, and hair salons in USA than in Europe. Actually too many to make them profitable even in non-pandemic times.
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LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2433 on: October 29, 2020, 09:10:27 pm »

Situation on Oct 29, 2020: Not rounding the corner, but situation worsening everywhere:
New global cases - over half a million
91,300 new cases and 1047 deaths in USA
2,956 new cases in and 42 deaths in Canada
Over 200,000 new cases in Europe
 
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JoeKitchen

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2434 on: October 30, 2020, 07:36:26 am »

Great Barrington Declaration

"As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies, and recommend an approach we call Focused Protection."

Interesting read of scientist who think we should be conducting lockdowns and instead should be focusing on mitigation and protecting the vulnerable while allowing others to get back to a normal. 
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armand

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2435 on: October 30, 2020, 09:32:18 am »

About a competing petition and the need for consensus: https://www.medpagetoday.com/blogs/vinay-prasad/89177?xid=nl_secondopinion_2020-10-20&eun=g370325d0r

Unfortunately when you start with lies and politicize everything you throw away the trust needed to get a consensus.

faberryman

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2436 on: October 30, 2020, 10:03:53 am »

About a competing petition and the need for consensus: https://www.medpagetoday.com/blogs/vinay-prasad/89177?xid=nl_secondopinion_2020-10-20&eun=g370325d0r

Unfortunately when you start with lies and politicize everything you throw away the trust needed to get a consensus.

Sometimes when you think something has an either/or solution, you don't make the right choice regardless of which you choose. When you have an either/or choice, everyone seems to stop thinking. You know, like when you are trying to decide between a Nikon and a Canon, you don't realize that a Fuji is the best choice for you.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2020, 01:56:07 pm by faberryman »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2437 on: October 30, 2020, 01:04:34 pm »

About a competing petition and the need for consensus: https://www.medpagetoday.com/blogs/vinay-prasad/89177?xid=nl_secondopinion_2020-10-20&eun=g370325d0r

Unfortunately when you start with lies and politicize everything you throw away the trust needed to get a consensus.

So in essence, your article states both ideas are flawed.  The question, from my point of view, is which why to lean. 

I think you already know my pick.  Keeping this going is hurting us more then not.  Plus, "those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
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TechTalk

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2438 on: October 30, 2020, 01:54:35 pm »

So in essence, your article states both ideas are flawed.  The question, from my point of view, is which why to lean. 

I think you already know my pick.  Keeping this going is hurting us more then not.  Plus, "those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

The article suggests that the two contrasting opinions are too limited in outlook and narrow in approach and favors a more balanced consideration of the issues based on the existing circumstances and locality. Balance is usually a good thing and often difficult to achieve under rapidly changing conditions.

The balance between liberty and safety is an interesting topic. At those times when a person is concerned for their safety, they are less likely to be philosophically considering their current liberty or lack thereof. Here's a link to an interesting discussion of the Franklin quote and the context in which he made it...

https://www.npr.org/2015/03/02/390245038/ben-franklins-famous-liberty-safety-quote-lost-its-context-in-21st-century
« Last Edit: October 30, 2020, 02:32:22 pm by TechTalk »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #2439 on: October 30, 2020, 02:53:06 pm »

The article suggests that the two contrasting opinions are too limited in outlook and narrow in approach and favors a more balanced consideration of the issues based on the existing circumstances and locality. Balance is usually a good thing and often difficult to achieve under rapidly changing conditions.

The balance between liberty and safety is an interesting topic. At those times when a person is concerned for their safety, they are less likely to be philosophically considering their current liberty or lack thereof. Here's a link to an interesting discussion of the Franklin quote and the context in which he made it...

https://www.npr.org/2015/03/02/390245038/ben-franklins-famous-liberty-safety-quote-lost-its-context-in-21st-century

It's a sad truth, but most people are cowards unfortunately. 
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