COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS

[JoeKitchen]

I might add, the fact is, that there is nothing you can do about this except delay the inevitable.  That's hit.  The majority of us are going to get this, and best we let that happen while protecting the vulnerable.

Countries that have been touted as success stories are now being hit hard, such as Germany and France.  Italy enacted a mandatory mask mandate even outdoors and recently went back on a lockdown.  They are getting walloped right now. 

I know for some people, I am guessing you and Armond, the idea that you can not do anything with certain things and, more often then not, trying to do something makes it worse is a very hard concept to accept.  But accept it you must. 

There is nothing we can do except let it burn through the population, as it will regardless, while isolating the elderly and vulnerable. 

[armand]

I might add, the fact is, that there is nothing you can do about this except delay the inevitable.  That's hit.  The majority of us are going to get this, and best we let that happen while protecting the vulnerable.

Countries that have been touted as success stories are now being hit hard, such as Germany and France.  Italy enacted a mandatory mask mandate even outdoors and recently went back on a lockdown.  They are getting walloped right now. 

I know for some people, I am guessing you and Armond, the idea that you can not do anything with certain things and, more often then not, trying to do something makes it worse is a very hard concept to accept.  But accept it you must. 

There is nothing we can do except let it burn through the population, as it will regardless, while isolating the elderly and vulnerable.

Beside misspelling my name, don’t put words or actions in my mouth. You have no idea what every possibility will lead to yet you pretend otherwise.
Your choices are yours but don’t think that they are the right choices for the others, or as a matter of policy. There are many options.
I left the other discussions because most were not interested in discussing but in proving the others are wrong, while missing elementary knowledge of facts. I would rather keep this thread focused on data and scientific approach and not on personal opinions based on on nothing but gut feelings and such.

[faberryman]

I might add, the fact is, that there is nothing you can do about this except delay the inevitable.

The thing is it is inevitable that we are all going to die, so each of us has to make his own decision whether to run the red light or not. If you choose to run the red light, you should be prepared to accept the consequences, whether that means getting killed or killing someone else or getting thrown in jail for negligent homicide or just getting a ticket. You have indicated that you have chosen not to wear a mask, and you have given us a laundry list of rationalizations about why that is the best choice for you. Fine. Why do you have to keep bludgeoning us over the head with your choice and the reasons therefore? That is the fairly common behavior for someone who has doubts about his decision and thinks that if he keeps saying it over and over, he might be able to actually convince himself it that is the right choice.

[JoeKitchen]

Beside misspelling my name, don’t put words or actions in my mouth. You have no idea what every possibility will lead to yet you pretend otherwise.
Your choices are yours but don’t think that they are the right choices for the others, or as a matter of policy. There are many options.
I left the other discussions because most were not interested in discussing but in proving the others are wrong, while missing elementary knowledge of facts. I would rather keep this thread focused on data and scientific approach and not on personal opinions based on on nothing but gut feelings and such.

I am fine with allowing each to pick their own choices, but you, nor anyone else, have no right to pick my choices for me.  This I can live by, but the moment you start pushing more lock downs, I will fight. 

[BobShaw]

It's a sad truth, but most people are cowards unfortunately.
....
I am fine with allowing each to pick their own choices, but you, nor anyone else, have no right to pick my choices for me.  This I can live by, but the moment you start pushing more lock downs, I will fight.

Ah, yes. John Wayne was a hero. He would charge 50 men across an open field towards a machine gun and the two men left would capture it.
The cowards would go around the outside and take it out without loss of life.

I think the real heroes are the ones with enough guts to protect their family, their parents, and their grandparents.

Yes, some if not most countries that have had lockdowns have had second waves, but they are usually localised.
We had one really bad state out of 8 states and territories in Australia.
But to date we have 1 case per 1000 people and one death per 25,000 people. It is almost normal now.
The US has 1 case per about 40 people and one death per about 1400 to date and the current rate is higher than it ever was.
Enjoy your choice.

[Alan Klein]

Beside misspelling my name, don’t put words or actions in my mouth. You have no idea what every possibility will lead to yet you pretend otherwise.
Your choices are yours but don’t think that they are the right choices for the others, or as a matter of policy. There are many options.
I left the other discussions because most were not interested in discussing but in proving the others are wrong, while missing elementary knowledge of facts. I would rather keep this thread focused on data and scientific approach and not on personal opinions based on on nothing but gut feelings and such.

Joe and everyone else are entitled to their opinions.  There's no point of having a forum if all you want to do is regurgitate opinions of others, scientists or not. Just read the journals.

In any case, they have differing opinions as well.  Are you going to decide who's right?  What credentials do you have to make those choices?  It seems you want to silence those you disagree with who don;t mimic your beliefs.  Considering the trouble Europe is having again, the experts have been wrong and their methods have not controlled the virus. So joe's opinions are as valid as anyone else's. 

[Alan Klein]

Ah, yes. John Wayne was a hero. He would charge 50 men across an open field towards a machine gun and the two men left would capture it.
The cowards would go around the outside and take it out without loss of life.

I think the real heroes are the ones with enough guts to protect their family, their parents, and their grandparents.

Yes, some if not most countries that have had lockdowns have had second waves, but they are usually localised.
We had one really bad state out of 8 states and territories in Australia.
But to date we have 1 case per 1000 people and one death per 25,000 people. It is almost normal now.
The US has 1 case per about 40 people and one death per about 1400 to date and the current rate is higher than it ever was.
Enjoy your choice.

Protecting your family means feeding them.  We all have to find a balance between protection and getting on with life.  I'm 75 and protect myself a lot.  But I still take chances by going out to stores, doctors, shooting my camera, walking, hiking, getting a ice cream cone, etc. rather than staying at home 100% of the time.  We have to live too.  Having to pick one or the other is a false choice.  We can do both. 

[BobShaw]

But I still take chances by going out to stores, doctors, shooting my camera, walking, hiking, getting a ice cream cone, etc. rather than staying at home 100% of the time.  We have to live too.  Having to pick one or the other is a false choice.  We can do both.

We have all done that. We just aren't protesting in the street and attending rallies. Most people have worked from home, social distanced and worn a mask on the very rare times we need to.

[faberryman]

Joe and everyone else are entitled to their opinions.  There's no point of having a forum if all you want to do is regurgitate opinions of others, scientists or not. Just read the journals.

In any case, they have differing opinions as well.  Are you going to decide who's right?  What credentials do you have to make those choices?  It seems you want to silence those you disagree with who don;t mimic your beliefs.  Considering the trouble Europe is having again, the experts have been wrong and their methods have not controlled the virus. So joe's opinions are as valid as anyone else's.

That may depend on what you mean by “valid”.

I don’t know what you did for a living, thermostats or fire alarms or something. I don’t know the first thing about thermostats or fire alarms. I mean I could read up about it on Google, but if someone asked me my opinion, I would say go talk to you, your opinion on thermostats and fire alarms is more valid than mine, even though I can read stuff on Google as well as the next guy. But then maybe I don’t know what valid means. Even though you might think Joe’s opinion on coronavirus and coronavirus response is valid, I am going to look to someone with more education, training, and experience for advice on the subject. If your wife catches coronavirus, are you really going to tell her that Joe said you didn’t have to wear a mask, oops, sorry about that, his opinion is as valid as anybody else’s?

[armand]

Joe and everyone else are entitled to their opinions.  There's no point of having a forum if all you want to do is regurgitate opinions of others, scientists or not. Just read the journals.

In any case, they have differing opinions as well.  Are you going to decide who's right?  What credentials do you have to make those choices?  It seems you want to silence those you disagree with who don;t mimic your beliefs.  Considering the trouble Europe is having again, the experts have been wrong and their methods have not controlled the virus. So joe's opinions are as valid as anyone else's.

This reply is so lame that I shouldn't even bother but I'll answer one more time, maybe you can leave this topic alone. I don't "regurgitate" journals. This is so demeaning yet it expresses very well the assault on science. By denigrating the science you are trying to make your "opinion" as valid as others, but that ship has sailed long ago.

You can have your opinions on the other thread. Oh wait, it's closed now. That's why you come here. As for my credentials, you have none so I win by default if that is what you are going for. But as I've been educated in the medical field and practiced for a lot more years than your Google searches, not to mention that I actually deal with sick Covid patients on a regular basis, I think I know a thing or two about this.


Bottom line, unless you want to talk about the science of Covid, it will be preferable to use another avenue for your opinions. You cycle through them so often that I know them all by now even if I gave up long ago on having an actual dialogue.

[Alan Klein]

That may depend on what you mean by “valid”.

I don’t know what you did for a living, thermostats or fire alarms or something. I don’t know the first thing about thermostats or fire alarms. I mean I could read up about it on Google, but if someone asked me my opinion, I would say go talk to you, your opinion on thermostats and fire alarms is more valid than mine, even though I can read stuff on Google as well as the next guy. But then maybe I don’t know what valid means. Even though you might think Joe’s opinion on coronavirus and coronavirus response is valid, I am going to look to someone with more education, training, and experience for advice on the subject. If your wife catches coronavirus, are you really going to tell her that Joe said you didn’t have to wear a mask, oops, sorry about that, his opinion is as valid as anybody else’s?

But Joe's opinion comes from vast experience.  He's taken care of his family all his life and knows more about how to do that than you, Fauci, or anyone else.

[Alan Klein]

This reply is so lame that I shouldn't even bother but I'll answer one more time, maybe you can leave this topic alone. I don't "regurgitate" journals. This is so demeaning yet it expresses very well the assault on science. By denigrating the science you are trying to make your "opinion" as valid as others, but that ship has sailed long ago.

You can have your opinions on the other thread. Oh wait, it's closed now. That's why you come here. As for my credentials, you have none so I win by default if that is what you are going for. But as I've been educated in the medical field and practiced for a lot more years than your Google searches, not to mention that I actually deal with sick Covid patients on a regular basis, I think I know a thing or two about this.


Bottom line, unless you want to talk about the science of Covid, it will be preferable to use another avenue for your opinions. You cycle through them so often that I know them all by now even if I gave up long ago on having an actual dialogue.

WIth all due respect Armand, I'd rather take my own counsel than listen on a photography forum to some unknown "expert" who fails to provide his last name and who espouses he knows the "truth".    I'm 75, and like Joe, I've managed to take care of me and my family as well without your help.  It takes a lot of cheek to assume you know better than me how to do that.

[JoeKitchen]

This reply is so lame that I shouldn't even bother but I'll answer one more time, maybe you can leave this topic alone. I don't "regurgitate" journals. This is so demeaning yet it expresses very well the assault on science. By denigrating the science you are trying to make your "opinion" as valid as others, but that ship has sailed long ago.

You can have your opinions on the other thread. Oh wait, it's closed now. That's why you come here. As for my credentials, you have none so I win by default if that is what you are going for. But as I've been educated in the medical field and practiced for a lot more years than your Google searches, not to mention that I actually deal with sick Covid patients on a regular basis, I think I know a thing or two about this.


Bottom line, unless you want to talk about the science of Covid, it will be preferable to use another avenue for your opinions. You cycle through them so often that I know them all by now even if I gave up long ago on having an actual dialogue.

This is commonly referred to as the "appeal to authority" fallacy. 

But like I said before, I have no issue with you doing what you wish, only don't start dictating me what to do. 

Last, the Great Barrington Declaration was written by people whom are higher in rank among the medical community then you. 

[faberryman]

This is commonly referred to as the "appeal to authority" fallacy.

That's fine, but it doesn't mean Alan has any idea what he is talking about.

[JoeKitchen]

That's fine, but it doesn't mean Alan has any idea what he is talking about.

Fair enough. 

Was it the public health expert of South Africa who said earlier this year, there are no experts on C-19 anywhere in the world. 

[faberryman]

Fair enough. 

Was it the public health expert of South Africa who said earlier this year, there are no experts on C-19 anywhere in the world.

I don't know. Is that his expert opinion? Are there experts who determine that there are no experts. The thing is there are people that know nothing, and people that know something, and people that know a lot about any given subject. Even if there is no expert in the subject, I am going to go with the guy who knows a lot, or better yet a lot of people who know a lot about different aspect of the subject, and not some random guy on the internet with no relevant education, training, and experience with the issue, who says he has been reading about the topic on the internet.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

How many 'Covid' deaths are really caused by Covid-19?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzh6HwN0gbw

Another debunking of fake news.

[armand]

This is commonly referred to as the "appeal to authority" fallacy. 

But like I said before, I have no issue with you doing what you wish,  only don't start telling me what to do. 

Last, the Great Barrington Declaration was written by people whom are higher in rank among the medical community then you.

Actually that's not it means, it was an ironic reply to his questioning. As for them having more authority, I don't think you know how this works. If am in a domain that I know, I can question/interpret what people higher on the leadership scale are doing. If I'm in a totally different field, not so much.

And that stupid quote taken out of context and said a long time ago doesn't mean that an average Joe's opinion is as good as any.


We went over this many times and it's useless to talk to you, I really have better things to do.
I'm here to chip in with scientific things that I know more than most here.

You guys left this mostly alone but now that the other topic forum is closed you just can't contain yourselves.

[armand]

WIth all due respect Armand, I'd rather take my own counsel than listen on a photography forum to some unknown "expert" who fails to provide his last name and who espouses he knows the "truth".    I'm 75, and like Joe, I've managed to take care of me and my family as well without your help.  It takes a lot of cheek to assume you know better than me how to do that.

Alan Klein, this Colin Robinson of Luminous Landscape (see What we do in the shadows for reference), you suck the life of any topic.

Your self righteous answer is great but it has no connection to the subject in hand which is about the science of Covid and not how good you are to take care of your family.

As for my credentials, I told them to you in the past but as in the past it is too difficult for you to recall, or to figure out my name from my signature/website and my posted photos which have my name. Not that it would make a difference, you'd still be back to your experts are wrong and similar bullshit.
I'm out, will reply to the science questions only.

[Alan Klein]

Actually that's not it means, it was an ironic reply to his questioning. As for them having more authority, I don't think you know how this works. If am in a domain that I know, I can question/interpret what people higher on the leadership scale are doing. If I'm in a totally different field, not so much.

And that stupid quote taken out of context and said a long time ago doesn't mean that an average Joe's opinion is as good as any.


We went over this many times and it's useless to talk to you, I really have better things to do.
I'm here to chip in with scientific things that I know more than most here.

You guys left this mostly alone but now that the other topic forum is closed you just can't contain yourselves.

The threads title is  No Politics, not No Opinions but yours.