COVID-19 updates

[chez]

Matt, I am speaking from the standpoint of the American mindset.  We just dont care for government telling us what to do.  It is our very nature, end of story, good or bad. 

Do you really think that you can put every expert in the world on TV telling us we need to stay inside indefinite and Americans will actually care.  I got news for you, unless death visits us perceptively, it's going to break. 

I am just being a realist here.  There needs to be plans in place when the damn opens and people start going back outside regardless if big brother wants us to or not.

That's a sad society.

[Alan Klein]

 

You may not need access but you still need the blessing of the clients.  Some may be a bit put off by the fact you might be disregarding warnings just to make images.  Others maybe not.  Have you considered how it might appear to new, potential clients when they ask you how you got these image of buildings with no people and you tell tell them you made them during the Covid-19 crisis...when people were asked to stay home?  That might not be a comment some will want to hear. 

added on edit:

There is a marked difference between eating and making images....

Reputations take a very long time to build and a very short time to destroy. 

In the end only you can decide how you will respond to this.  I wish you well with your choices.

I don;t know how some people are going to survive.  My wife and I decided to give our cleaning girl who comes once a week, part of her pay to help her out even though we cancelled her services for now. We offered her full check but she's proud and wouldn't take it.  We understand.  She barely speaks English but she's a real sweet girl.
 We don't want anyone in our house especially because we're over 65.  Everyone's cancelled their cleaning services in our community, I'm guessing  as everyone's old here. So all the cleaning girls are not working.  How many scores in just in our township?? How are people going to survive living week to week?  We will continue to get our SS and pension checks, well I hope so.   So we should be OK if we don;t get the virus. 

The thousand dollar check the Feds are giving will only delay unemployment checks with little net benefit to the unemployed.  State unemployment usually does not kick in until all vacation and all other payments from being out of work end.  So I don't see it helping that much unless you're unemployed (retired) like me and don't have to worry about salaries.  The thing doesn't make sense.

[JoeKitchen]

Just a hunch on your part regarding we already flattened the curve. Any real data. Right now we just don't have enough testing to really know. Looking at the detection and death rates...we are accelerating.

I'm just going by the word of Dr. Fauci who said closing off the border as quickly as we did greatly helped us avoid becoming like Italy.   You know, that same Dr. Fauci who is the leading expert in the country right now. 

He also is in favor of a 14 day national shutdown, which I would be okay with as well.  But I think this is the realistic limit of what most Americans will care to do.  At a certain point, people will thumb their nose at the government in this country.  Like I said, I am just being a realist here. 

I was talking to brother yesterday, who is a far left wing let government control everything type of guy who is totally for shutting down the country for a couple of months.  In Harrisburg they shut down the bars.  It lasted a full day before a couple opened again, and there were plenty of patrons waiting to get in. 

Now if I were the bar owner, I would like to believe I would last more then 24 hours.  But some wont, and if I owned the bar across the street and saw my competitor open without any  consequences, I would eventually be opening too, maybe not that day, but the next? 

[Craig Lamson]

Just this morning the administration told us we are running out of protective equipment and alluded we should take one for the team. Let that sink in for a moment and tell me later how fun is that.

This line in your post just struck me...

Who caused this problem?  Its not a goventmental issue unless there is some rule I don't know about that lmits the supplies a hospital can keep on hand.  This strikes me as an issue that the hospital caused itself.  Why are your stocks so low you cant handle something like this, at least for the short term?

[chez]

I'll say it once again, the economy will eventually recover, dead people won't get the chance.

Seems like it's ok with people as long as they are not the ones that die.

[armand]

Just a hunch on your part regarding we already flattened the curve. Any real data. Right now we just don't have enough testing to really know. Looking at the detection and death rates...we are accelerating.

I'm afraid you are right. Now we might not get that bad but now I'm in the mindset of worst case scenario.

Can you tell us where you live, or within 100 miles?

Kalamazoo, Michigan. Cases are coming our way from Detroit (probably the first spot), Ann Arbor and Grand Rapids. Chicago had positive cases long ago also.

[armand]

This line in your post just struck me...

Who caused this problem?  Its not a goventmental issue unless there is some rule I don't know about that lmits the supplies a hospital can keep on hand.  This strikes me as an issue that the hospital caused itself.  Why are your stocks so low you cant handle something like this, at least for the short term?

Hospitals have some blame for certain, but this is a huge nationwide system and others are in similar situation. US has an emergency supply for cases like this but they figured most mask are expired and that the supply is actually tiny for the needs of an epidemic, the first thing why the supply exist. It's incredible that we knew about this for 2 months now and yet we are still not ready.
As I said before, there are screw ups at multiple levels.

[MattBurt]

Matt, I am speaking from the standpoint of the American mindset.  We just dont care for government telling us what to do.  It is our very nature, end of story, good or bad. 

Do you really think that you can put every expert in the world on TV telling us we need to stay inside indefinite and Americans will actually care.  I got news for you, unless death visits us perceptively, it's going to break. 

I am just being a realist here.  There needs to be plans in place when the damn opens and people start going back outside regardless if big brother wants us to or not.

I understand the mindset you are illustrating. I wish we weren't being restricted too. I just had my salary cut and my small business has pretty much dried up, at least for the moment.
But I feel like this is bigger than me and my wants and needs. I need to get with the program and do what I can for us all because like it or not, we are all in this together. 
I think too many Americans are selfish and don't trust science and institutions that exist to protect us. The current political climate has only exacerbated this to the extreme.

I expect older citizens who are disregarding the restrictions will somewhat self-select for elimination which is unfortunate but they will do it to themselves (mostly).
The ones that really concern me are the younger people who are unlikely or believe they are unlikely to get very sick so they go on as usual, possibly infecting many, many more people who may pay the ultimate price.

Edit to add: no we can't put all the experts on TV but if our leaders can listen to qualified people's recommendations and put them into action, that will save lives. Even the lives of doubters.   

[armand]

I understand the mindset you are illustrating. I wish we weren't being restricted too. I just had my salary cut and my small business has pretty much dried up, at least for the moment.
But I feel like this is bigger than me and my wants and needs. I need to get with the program and do what I can for us all because like it or not, we are all in this together. 
I think too many Americans are selfish and don't trust science and institutions that exist to protect us. The current political climate has only exacerbated this to the extreme.

I expect older citizens who are disregarding the restrictions will somewhat self-select for elimination which is unfortunate but they will do it to themselves (mostly).
The ones that really concern me are the younger people who are unlikely or believe they are unlikely to get very sick so they go on as usual, possibly infecting many, many more people who may pay the ultimate price.

Young people die too, the Chinese doctor who was a whistleblower and died was 34 or 36. And if you don't die it doesn't mean that you are doing great. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger doesn't apply too well in medicine.

[Craig Lamson]

I'm just going by the word of Dr. Fauci who said closing off the border as quickly as we did greatly helped us avoid becoming like Italy.   You know, that same Dr. Fauci who is the leading expert in the country right now. 

He also is in favor of a 14 day national shutdown, which I would be okay with as well.  But I think this is the realistic limit of what most Americans will care to do.  At a certain point, people will thumb their nose at the government in this country.  Like I said, I am just being a realist here.

I watched Fauci yesterday and I heard 14 days..for now with a need to revisit.   I'm going from memory but I'm old...

[JoeKitchen]

I watched Fauci yesterday and I heard 14 days..for now with a need to revisit.   I'm going from memory but I'm old...

If deaths don't skyrocket in 14 days, it's not going to matter how many experts you put on TV.  Americans will just be Americans. 

[Alan Klein]

I'm afraid you are right. Now we might not get that bad but now I'm in the mindset of worst case scenario.

Kalamazoo, Michigan. Cases are coming our way from Detroit (probably the first spot), Ann Arbor and Grand Rapids. Chicago had positive cases long ago also.

Well, I'm 40-50 miles from NYC with loads of people here who commute to NYC.  In fact, I was in NYC just a few days ago at a dentist and doctor.  So it seems to be picking up here but not too heavy as far as I can tell.  The panicking seems worse than what seems to be happening.  So far.

[armand]

...
But at the same time, Italy has had enough exposure to develop heard immunity, as had Wuhan.  Perhaps one of the reasons Wuhan is getting back to normal is because their immunity has stopped it from spreading.  If we dont develop this here, this may not be the case.

If that's true I don't think it applies to US anymore, Wuhan was enclosed, here we have cases everywhere. Plus I thought I saw some reports that the epidemics might not be that contained as China says, and next thing I hear China is throwing out New York Times, Washington Post and Wall Street Journal journalists.

[Alan Klein]

Hospitals have some blame for certain, but this is a huge nationwide system and others are in similar situation. US has an emergency supply for cases like this but they figured most mask are expired and that the supply is actually tiny for the needs of an epidemic, the first thing why the supply exist. It's incredible that we knew about this for 2 months now and yet we are still not ready.
As I said before, there are screw ups at multiple levels.

Other countries did the same thing.  Not much.  No one shut things down until it seemed real.  We didn't fight the Japanese or Nazis until Pearl Harbor was bombed and we lost half of our Navy.  The initial troops we trained after that used broomsticks for rifles when they marched until the real guns were made available. No one did anything about Bin Laden until 9-11 even though we knew what was up with him for years before.  No one's going to do much regarding climate change until we're up to our necks in sea water.  It's how the world works. 

[JoeKitchen]

If that's true I don't think it applies to US anymore, Wuhan was enclosed, here we have cases everywhere. Plus I thought I saw some reports that the epidemics might not be that contained as China says, and next thing I hear China is throwing out New York Times, Washington Post and Wall Street Journal journalists.

I am not too please about this.  However, I think China is trying to distort the narrative here through propaganda.  For instance, the idea that saying this is the Wuhan Virus or the China Virus being racist originally came from Chinese propaganda.  Trump's refusal to give in here may be part of the reasons for kicking journalists out. 

[Alan Klein]

I saw that yesterday (published online) and several more like it. I find it interesting that companies and researchers are sticking to protocols despite the urgency of the problem -- that they have a possible drug that could be effective but they still go through these bureaucratic forms of testing and approval. The testing I see, both for efficacy and safety, but I would think that in the current case, if they see some efficacy and no major red flags regarding safety, they would begin immediate bulk manufacturing and the bureaucratic approvals would be short-circuited to get it out there. In the case of Washington state, there were a couple of weeks of back-and-forth on who had the right to test and who had the power to approve testing before people were allowed to test, even though the tests were obviously working. That was ridiculous.

Among other things I think Congress needs to do, is some kind of protection against lawsuits for pharmaceutical companies who do abbreviated trials of Covus-19 treatments, especially those aimed at critical cases. If somebody is 95% likely to die, I don't think we need a drug that has been proven to be 100% safe. 

Alan Goldhamer could add more to this point, but I think there are many ways to shorten testing especially in situations like this one.  Certainly the CDC has been given a lot of ,power to make decision from what I her from Dr. Fauci.

[Alan Klein]

I saw that yesterday (published online) and several more like it. I find it interesting that companies and researchers are sticking to protocols despite the urgency of the problem -- that they have a possible drug that could be effective but they still go through these bureaucratic forms of testing and approval. The testing I see, both for efficacy and safety, but I would think that in the current case, if they see some efficacy and no major red flags regarding safety, they would begin immediate bulk manufacturing and the bureaucratic approvals would be short-circuited to get it out there. In the case of Washington state, there were a couple of weeks of back-and-forth on who had the right to test and who had the power to approve testing before people were allowed to test, even though the tests were obviously working. That was ridiculous.

Among other things I think Congress needs to do, is some kind of protection against lawsuits for pharmaceutical companies who do abbreviated trials of Covus-19 treatments, especially those aimed at critical cases. If somebody is 95% likely to die, I don't think we need a drug that has been proven to be 100% safe. 

Alan Goldhamer could add more to this point, but I think there are many ways to shorten testing especially in situations like this one.  Certainly the CDC has been given a lot of ,power to make decision from what I her from Dr. Fauci.

But the reason things seem to have slowed down in China and South Korea is because of the measures they took to flatten the curve...which so many here seem to be bitching about. If China and South Korea just went about their normal daily business, I think we'd all be seeing a much different picture. Now look at Italy which delayed doing what China and South Korea did and we are seeing the results. Now they are in panic mode and under a much tighter lock down than anything we have in North America.

OK Well we're now doing a lot.  Government is responding to public pressure, watching and listening to what voters say.  That's what happens in a democracy.  We're not Red China.  Most lockdown comes locally because the federal government does not have the power.  State government and local authorities do.  So the latter are acting much more tough according to what they hear locally. That's how America works.  Other countries are ruled more from the top.  What most people forget, is that local government rules affect us more with our day-to-day activities. 

[Alan Klein]

I understand the mindset you are illustrating. I wish we weren't being restricted too. I just had my salary cut and my small business has pretty much dried up, at least for the moment.
But I feel like this is bigger than me and my wants and needs. I need to get with the program and do what I can for us all because like it or not, we are all in this together. 
I think too many Americans are selfish and don't trust science and institutions that exist to protect us. The current political climate has only exacerbated this to the extreme.

I expect older citizens who are disregarding the restrictions will somewhat self-select for elimination which is unfortunate but they will do it to themselves (mostly).
The ones that really concern me are the younger people who are unlikely or believe they are unlikely to get very sick so they go on as usual, possibly infecting many, many more people who may pay the ultimate price.

Edit to add: no we can't put all the experts on TV but if our leaders can listen to qualified people's recommendations and put them into action, that will save lives. Even the lives of doubters.   

The problem is experts have differing opinions.  Ever listen to stock market reviews?  It's why we have bears and bulls.  Why do we have such differing opinions in these forums? Same with many scientific and economic things.  Then you have politicians and newspapers who spin the news and facts to fit their own agenda.  The poor guy on the street like us is just confused and finds it hard to believe anyone.  That's why politicians, media, and so many other have so low levels of trust.  Also, even experts can't read the future.  They don't have crystal balls.  This seems like a new situation we haven;t faced before.  Also, fighting the last war may not be the way to fight the new one.  History has a way of surprising us.   God too.

[Alan Goldhammer]

I saw that yesterday (published online) and several more like it. I find it interesting that companies and researchers are sticking to protocols despite the urgency of the problem -- that they have a possible drug that could be effective but they still go through these bureaucratic forms of testing and approval. The testing I see, both for efficacy and safety, but I would think that in the current case, if they see some efficacy and no major red flags regarding safety, they would begin immediate bulk manufacturing and the bureaucratic approvals would be short-circuited to get it out there. In the case of Washington state, there were a couple of weeks of back-and-forth on who had the right to test and who had the power to approve testing before people were allowed to test, even though the tests were obviously working. That was ridiculous.

Among other things I think Congress needs to do, is some kind of protection against lawsuits for pharmaceutical companies who do abbreviated trials of Covus-19 treatments, especially those aimed at critical cases. If somebody is 95% likely to die, I don't think we need a drug that has been proven to be 100% safe.

John, they can do a lot of this under existing FDA regulations.  The real problem is that some drugs are in scarce supply and manufacturing will be difficult.  The company wants to make sure it works before committing a lot resources to manufacture.  It's not just money, but that the chemistry behind some of these compounds is complex.  Every drug that I am aware of has undergone some type of safety testing and a lot of them are already approved for other uses.  There is nothing that stops investigators from trying out such drugs, if they are available, in trials.  The important thing is to get the clinical efficacy data ASAP and get it out there.

I think this will happen.

[Alan Goldhammer]

He also is in favor of a 14 day national shutdown, which I would be okay with as well.  But I think this is the realistic limit of what most Americans will care to do.  At a certain point, people will thumb their nose at the government in this country.  Like I said, I am just being a realist here. 

they already have as has been shown of all the college aged people still partying in Florida.  Maybe they get mild cases and maybe they come home and infect other family members including elder relatives.