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Author Topic: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development  (Read 9734 times)

D White

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Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
« Reply #80 on: April 20, 2020, 11:23:21 pm »

The elephant in the room; will Canon actually have a decent sensor after a decade or more in the dark ages.
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Dr D White DDS BSc

Dinarius

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Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
« Reply #81 on: April 22, 2020, 04:01:57 am »

Will be interesting to see how this camera is received.

I am a Canon 5D MkIV user. If I was doing it all again, I'd be a Sony user. But, I have too many Canon lenses to change now.

Seriously, who needs 8k? Who is this camera really aimed at? If someone really needs 8k, do they buy or hire a RED or some such? Indeed, do they hire a videographer with same and get him/her to do the shoot?

I am also a Hasselblad user, and I've seen both Hasselblad and Sony regularly improve their top end camera's features through regular firmware upgrades. What has Canon done with the 5D MkIV in this regard? Zip. With Canon, what you buy is what you're stuck with....until they release their next camera. (Unless it's a firmware upgrade to fix a bug, or to add connectivity for a new lens.)

Others on this thread have criticized Nikon and Canon for being behind the curve (my phrase). I have to agree. Sony have blown a very large hole in the good ship Canon/Nikon, and good for them. Who regularly uses Sony sensors in their cameras? Right. And do Sony ever use Canon or Nikon sensors in their cameras? Right again.

As I say, I will be interested to read some no holds barred reviews of the R5. But, I won't be buying one.

D.

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Guillermo Luijk

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Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
« Reply #82 on: April 22, 2020, 02:57:01 pm »

Considering that even Sony is having a hard time with 60mp I find that very unlikely.

Besides it won’t happen because:
(...)
- it would reveal that even the excellent RF lenses have limited resolution

This is often heard as a mantra "lenses cannot perform with so many Mpx". Then it comes the real world: the optical resolution of lens + sensor is a continuous system and adding more Mpx will always have a benefit in the final result. In particular you just need to go to DPreview studio comparison and see that any current high Mpx count camera suffers aliasing artifacts over high frequency areas, even with Canon EF or Nikon F lenses:

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=canon_eos5dsr&attr13_1=nikon_d850&attr13_2=sony_a7riv&attr13_3=nikon_z7&attr15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&attr16_0=100&attr16_1=100&attr16_2=100&attr16_3=100&attr126_2=1&normalization=full&widget=1&x=-0.6423876758574629&y=0.4132831116901664

Translation: there is still a lot of room for improvement by adding more Mpx. Current lenses, even the "old" ones, allow for it. Another story is if many users will be able to enjoy all that captured detail in their applications, which is a robust reason not to want 100Mpx.

Regards
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 03:48:45 pm by Guillermo Luijk »
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kers

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Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
« Reply #83 on: April 22, 2020, 03:20:41 pm »

This is often heard as a mantra "lenses cannot performs with so many Mpx". Then it comes the real world: optical resolution is a continuous system and adding more Mpx will always have a benefit in the final result. In particular you just need to go to DPreview studio comparison and see that any current high Mpx count camera can produce aliasing artifacts on high frequency areas, even with Canon EF or Nikon F lenses:

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=canon_eos5dsr&attr13_1=nikon_d850&attr13_2=sony_a7riv&attr13_3=nikon_z7&attr15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&attr16_0=100&attr16_1=100&attr16_2=100&attr16_3=100&attr126_2=1&normalization=full&widget=1&x=-0.6423876758574629&y=0.4132831116901664

Translation: there is still a lot of room for improvement by adding more Mpx. Current lenses, even the "old" ones, allow for it. Another story is if many users will be able to enjoy all that captured detail in their applications, which is a robust reason not to want 100Mpx.

Regards

You are talking about the central part of the lens- in the corners it is another story- if they can do 24MP it is very good- especially wide angle lenses.
I see that some of my lenses can do 150MP in the central area at the best aperture.
About the enormous amount of detail- i agree, many photos don't need it.
At the moment i am scanning my 35mm slides before the colour vanishes.
In those days you just looked at the image as a whole. it is astonishing to see how much the technical quality has improved over the years, both in colour and in detail.
Looking back i would have chosen Kodachrome slides- They keep the colours best and produce lots of detail. But i did not like the colours of Kodachrome so i choose Agfa.
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Pieter Kers
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Guillermo Luijk

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Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
« Reply #84 on: April 22, 2020, 03:26:43 pm »

You are talking about the central part of the lens
Which strangely is the area that often matters the most :D

Anyway if you look at the Dpreview still life, it is not the central part of the image where the aliased subjects are located.

Regards

PS: anyone interested to know how aliasing sounds: https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=134706.0
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 03:49:37 pm by Guillermo Luijk »
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shadowblade

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Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
« Reply #85 on: June 03, 2020, 11:32:12 am »

https://www.canonrumors.com/this-is-just-a-sunday-reminder-of-the-canon-eos-r5-specifications/

https://www.canonrumors.com/canon-eos-r5-launch-price-will-be-below-4000-usd-cr3/

This is looking very good.

The elephant in the room is its AF performance. 45MP and 20fps is all well and good, but the 20fps part of it is totally meaningless unless the AF can keep up with the action. You don't get a camera to shoot landscapes at 20fps. Is this an A7r competitor, or an A9r?

If it has A7-level AF, matching the A7r4 (which will be a year old by the time the R5 is available), I'd give the edge to Sony, if only due to (current) better lens selection and the fact that the A7r5 is likely to come much sooner than whatever succeeds the R5. This would still represent a big leap in performance for Canon mirrorless cameras (granted, the previous models have all been entry-level bodies, not 5D or 1D replacements), and the new competition would likely spur Sony into a new round of innovation and performance improvement, like what we saw in the early days of Sony full-frame mirrorless, where bodies came thick and fast and performance improved in leaps and bounds. Maybe not for the A7r5 (which is likely already mostly developed, although you can do a lot with firmware), but certainly for the A7r6, or a possible A9r.

If it has A9-level AF, it becomes much more interesting. This would put Canon in the lead with a unique camera, with a deficit in lenses that will grow smaller over the next few years. In one body, it would combine the capabilities of action cameras with those of high-resolution bodies - just as Canon had done, to an extent, back in the days of the 1Ds3 - and provide sports and wildlife photographers with the ability to heavily crop action shots in the way that no other camera can, either due to lack of resolution (the various 20-24MP action bodies) or more limited AF capability (the various high-resolution bodies). This would leave Sony playing catch-up - no doubt they'd be forced to release an A9r, but they'd be starting from behind, although Canon would still have to release some supertele primes and zooms for their mirrorless mount in order to compete with Sony in this area. But one effect would be that it would likely put people on notice and stall investment in the Sony system, with potential buyers choosing to delay any new, non-vital purchases (especially in high-value gear that will be used for a long time, such as supertele primes) until it became clearer which side (if any) would take a meaningful lead in action photography.

I doubt sensor performance will be a major issue. Canon has made a lot of progress over the last few years - their current sensors are respectable, if not class leading at base ISO. And, for action photography in the typical 400-12800 ISO range, there's no real difference in output quality between Canon sensors and Sony Exmor sensors - it's only at base ISO that Canon sensors have tended to fall behind? There's no reason to suspect that the sensor Canon puts into this camera will be so bad it would cause people who would otherwise consider the R5 on its other merits to stay away, or so good it leaves Exmor in the dust. Basically, sensor performance is unlikely to be a distinguishing factor between the R5 and its competitors - the battle will be fought on other grounds.  (Does anyone actually care about the ISO 50k+ range anyway? At that end, it's just unusable (Canon) vs unusable (Sony) vs unusable (Nikon) anyway.)
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hogloff

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Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
« Reply #86 on: June 03, 2020, 06:57:26 pm »

https://www.canonrumors.com/this-is-just-a-sunday-reminder-of-the-canon-eos-r5-specifications/

https://www.canonrumors.com/canon-eos-r5-launch-price-will-be-below-4000-usd-cr3/

This is looking very good.

The elephant in the room is its AF performance. 45MP and 20fps is all well and good, but the 20fps part of it is totally meaningless unless the AF can keep up with the action. You don't get a camera to shoot landscapes at 20fps. Is this an A7r competitor, or an A9r?

If it has A7-level AF, matching the A7r4 (which will be a year old by the time the R5 is available), I'd give the edge to Sony, if only due to (current) better lens selection and the fact that the A7r5 is likely to come much sooner than whatever succeeds the R5. This would still represent a big leap in performance for Canon mirrorless cameras (granted, the previous models have all been entry-level bodies, not 5D or 1D replacements), and the new competition would likely spur Sony into a new round of innovation and performance improvement, like what we saw in the early days of Sony full-frame mirrorless, where bodies came thick and fast and performance improved in leaps and bounds. Maybe not for the A7r5 (which is likely already mostly developed, although you can do a lot with firmware), but certainly for the A7r6, or a possible A9r.

If it has A9-level AF, it becomes much more interesting. This would put Canon in the lead with a unique camera, with a deficit in lenses that will grow smaller over the next few years. In one body, it would combine the capabilities of action cameras with those of high-resolution bodies - just as Canon had done, to an extent, back in the days of the 1Ds3 - and provide sports and wildlife photographers with the ability to heavily crop action shots in the way that no other camera can, either due to lack of resolution (the various 20-24MP action bodies) or more limited AF capability (the various high-resolution bodies). This would leave Sony playing catch-up - no doubt they'd be forced to release an A9r, but they'd be starting from behind, although Canon would still have to release some supertele primes and zooms for their mirrorless mount in order to compete with Sony in this area. But one effect would be that it would likely put people on notice and stall investment in the Sony system, with potential buyers choosing to delay any new, non-vital purchases (especially in high-value gear that will be used for a long time, such as supertele primes) until it became clearer which side (if any) would take a meaningful lead in action photography.

I doubt sensor performance will be a major issue. Canon has made a lot of progress over the last few years - their current sensors are respectable, if not class leading at base ISO. And, for action photography in the typical 400-12800 ISO range, there's no real difference in output quality between Canon sensors and Sony Exmor sensors - it's only at base ISO that Canon sensors have tended to fall behind? There's no reason to suspect that the sensor Canon puts into this camera will be so bad it would cause people who would otherwise consider the R5 on its other merits to stay away, or so good it leaves Exmor in the dust. Basically, sensor performance is unlikely to be a distinguishing factor between the R5 and its competitors - the battle will be fought on other grounds.  (Does anyone actually care about the ISO 50k+ range anyway? At that end, it's just unusable (Canon) vs unusable (Sony) vs unusable (Nikon) anyway.)

The AF speed is tied directly to the sensor readout speed. Thats's what sets the A9 apart from the rest of the mirrorless world, it's 1/160 sensor readout compared to 1/40 for most other mirrorless cameras. This faster readout allows for 3 main benefits:

1. Better AF tracking. The A9 looks and adjust its AF 4 times as often as other cameras. This allows for more precise tracking.

2. Flicker free viewfinder. The faster the sensor readout, the faster the viewfinder refresh.

3. Reduces the affect of rolling shutters that can distort part of the image that is moving.

So today the sensor game isn't about base ISO dynamic range...that battle is long done. It's all about how fast the sensor is which affects many aspects of a mirrorless camera.
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