Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Mirrorless Cameras => Topic started by: Manoli on February 06, 2020, 07:45:01 pm

Title: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: Manoli on February 06, 2020, 07:45:01 pm
Several sites reporting possible early (mid-Feb) release of a pro-grade EOS-R:

No Film School (https://nofilmschool.com/canon-confirms-8k-eos-r-camera?utm_source=No+Film+School+newsletter&utm_campaign=4420403d97-Thursday+SUNDANCE+Round-up+Newsletter+1.30.20_COPY&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_00e2faa2b4-4420403d97-425719449)
Andrew Reid EOSHD (https://www.eoshd.com/canon/canon-officially-confirms-8k-eos-r5-is-in-our-roadmap/?fbclid=IwAR2HB3n6s6GYW4XmVOHpTRmRGJmekd5OzGzbGWr9V761aTKPRucg2REqBkM#more-21196)

Quote
If it is a 10bit Canon 1D C RAW doesn't matter.
The 1D C had a talent for nailing the Hollywood look in any light.
Bullet proof white balance.
Cinematic colour science with silky warm tones and dramatic cool tones in one shot when asked of it. No wierdness.
It takes years of experience, not to mention talent to grade like this but 1D C did it in-cam in real-time.
And this was in 8bit!
Imagine how good it's going to look in 10bit.

Canon EOS R5 Specifications:
Quote
Named the Canon EOS R5
45mp full-frame CMOS sensor
IBIS with 5 stops stabilisation, up to 7-8 stops with optical (O.I.S) lens based stabilisation working in tandem
12fps mechanical, 20fps electronic
Scroll wheel added to the back (HURRAH!)
No touch bar (HURRAH!)
Liveview/Movie toggle like previous EOS DSLRs (HURRAH!)
Larger capacity battery, but looks like the LP-E6
8K @ 30fps
4K @ 120fps
4K @ 60fps
Built-in 5GHz WiFi
Announcement ahead of CP+ next month (Feb 13th)
Launching in July 2020 (I’m assuming this means ship date)
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: BJL on February 06, 2020, 08:02:34 pm
When I dig down through the related articles, all I can find confirmed by Canon about 8K in an R camera is this quote:
Quote
Video will play a huge role in the EOS R System for sure. For example, an 8K video capable camera is already in our EOS R-series roadmap.
from Canon official Yoshiyuki Mizoguchi, quoted at https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2019/01/08/wheres-canon-going-with-the-eos-r-do-they-have-a-plan (https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2019/01/08/wheres-canon-going-with-the-eos-r-do-they-have-a-plan)

But note the date: January 2019; 13 months ago. So it is coming, but "coming soon" is still only a rumor, not confirmed by Canon.


Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: Manoli on February 06, 2020, 08:27:28 pm
...  "coming soon" is still only a rumor, not confirmed by Canon.

Absolutely, a point made in both the linked posts above in the very first line. Multiple indicators point to a higher-than-usual credibilty factor. An announcement possibly this month and launch July later this year.

Plenty of <if's> still.

Quote
... far fetched though a body like this seems in light of Canons woeful performance in the last decade, it’s exactly the spec they need to get people excited for the future of Canon again and for people to buy into a new system.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 06, 2020, 08:43:59 pm
I say... we will see.

Canon abused in the past the leaking of rumors with dream specs ahead of announcements from competitors to keep their user base waiting.

They did this for 1.5~2 years before the release of the 5Ds.

So what I get from this rumor mostly is that Sony is about to announce a 8K camera...  ;D ;D ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on February 07, 2020, 12:25:08 am
It all sound amazing.

Remember that Canon thing about the 100MP camera that was about to be released? That was what, three years ago? Where is that thing? This might be real and it might be Canon trying to stop the flood of people leaving the system. They have launched some incredible lenses recently but the mirrorless bodies not so much.

Thing is with Canon resources you just never know. Mark me down as skeptical but hopeful.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: TonyVentourisPhotography on February 07, 2020, 09:18:31 am
I bet a lot of people that get excited fo 8k have never tried to edit large amounts of it.  All I see is more hard drives and larger storage arrays filling my studio...
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: kers on February 07, 2020, 10:51:42 am
everything is coming, but when?

Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: BJL on February 07, 2020, 06:46:52 pm
I say... we will see.

Canon abused in the past the leaking of rumors with dream specs ahead of announcements from competitors to keep their user base waiting.

They did this for 1.5~2 years before the release of the 5Ds.

So what I get from this rumor mostly is that Sony is about to announce a 8K camera...  ;D ;D ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
To be fair to Canon, all we know it said was something totally vague and obvious (accepting 8K as an inevitable trend).

It is more like fans and rumor sites putting together 2 and 2 and coming up with 22—the most optimistic interpretation but not necessarily the most likely.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 11, 2020, 12:24:55 am
To be fair to Canon, all we know it said was something totally vague and obvious (accepting 8K as an inevitable trend).

It is more like fans and rumor sites putting together 2 and 2 and coming up with 22—the most optimistic interpretation but not necessarily the most likely.

Maybe. In the past it sure looked like an orchestrated campaign.

The timing of the release of such rumors was perfectly aligned with the announcement of competitors products from Nikon and Sony.

Besides I have met in Japan people close to Canon who were conveying exactly the same messages...

Cheers,
Bernard
 
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: phila on February 13, 2020, 03:16:35 am
Basic announcement is now offical.

https://www.canonrumors.com/canon-announces-development-of-the-eos-r5-next-generation-full-frame-mirrorless-camera-and-new-rf-series-lenses/

Obviously many, many important details to come...

I wonder if 40-45MP will prove to be the "sweet spot" for landscape work between a really high MP sensor (still rumoured to be coming) with the inherent fine detail available as opposed to a lower resolution sensor with less detail but greater depth of focus/field inherent with the larger pixel dimensions? Thoughts?
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: Manoli on February 13, 2020, 04:43:10 am
So what I get from this rumor mostly is that Sony is about to announce a 8K camera...

Me thinks 'tis the other way round, Bernard.
Word is that Sony delayed the latest 'S' pending the incoming Canon.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: Manoli on February 13, 2020, 04:45:45 am
It is more like fans and rumor sites putting together 2 and 2 and coming up with 22—the most optimistic interpretation but not necessarily the most likely.

Sometimes it pays to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: Manoli on February 13, 2020, 04:47:34 am
Canon teaser R5:
https://youtu.be/qY_G9lW07uo
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: kers on February 13, 2020, 04:54:45 am
Canon teaser R5:
https://youtu.be/qY_G9lW07uo
Impressive teaser ... not
But i understand they have changed the buttons on the back ...
I don't read anything about dynamic range... for me a very important factor.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 13, 2020, 05:57:05 pm
Me thinks 'tis the other way round, Bernard.
Word is that Sony delayed the latest 'S' pending the incoming Canon.

We will see. For now there is no date associated to the R5, is there?

But it certainly looks good. If the AF is up to notch then Canon will have a very tempting system for the first time since the 1Ds days in my view.

8K video is to a large extend marketing in my view, but may help get better 4K.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: BJL on February 13, 2020, 06:26:17 pm
Canon has typically been one to announce new products only soon before release, which is the strategy of a dominant player: earlier announcements largely undermine sales of the company's own existing products. This mixture of a development announcement with just a few highlight specs — along with talk of "many lenses coming soon", is instead in the style of a less dominant or even trailing player; one that want to persuade potential customers to wait a while longer, rather than buying into a competing system now (or in the cynical worst case, "jumping ship").  I'm not into the nonsense that Canon and Nikon are stuck three generations behind Sony in mirrorless technology (and if so, then five or six generations behind Panasonic and Olympus?!), because both have clearly been developing mirrorless-related technologies for some time — but there is some air of "wait, look at us, we're catching up!" with pre-announcement highlights like:
- IBIS! (Finally! And after talking about in-lens IS being superior or sufficient till recently.)
- Frame rates above 8FPS! — for the first time in its 35mm format mirrorless system.
- Dual card slots!
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: BJL on February 13, 2020, 06:38:24 pm
8K video is to a large extend marketing in my view, but may help get better 4K.
One of the best arguments I have heard for 8K video is that this is 8K Bayer CFA, which then down-converts cleanly to "4K X3"; all three colors at each location.

The other persuasive argument I have heard is that:
(a) there is some visual advantage in going a bit beyond 4K, even if one achieves "perfection" by about 6K under any sane, comfortable video viewing conditions, but
(b) backward compatibility for broadcasting and compression works best with a doubling of linear resolution, so 8K is preferred to 5K or 6K; just compress the higher spatial frequencies more vigorously to keep the bandwidth under control.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: Manoli on February 13, 2020, 08:26:43 pm
We will see. For now there is no date associated to the R5, is there?

None, but tbe consensus was an announcement mid-February, which came to pass and 'availability' July-ish - which in my book reads as July-ish but delivery, in all likelihood, September plus. [/amused-yellow-face]
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: Manoli on February 13, 2020, 08:33:07 pm
@BJL

I don't follow the tech side the way you and Bernard do, but there was little doubt in my mind when both Nikon and Canon entered the 'MILC' market, Canon had a different strategy to Nikon. Canon knew, or at least guessed correctly that the tech/demand wasn't yet ready to supersede their pro-grade 1Dxx DSLR's. They had a huge installed base of users heavily invested in their EF glass so they went lenses first, body second. The 'R' wasn't to compete with the Z7 or the high end Sony's but rather an affordable prosumer category box that most pros would easily add as a backup to their main cams, serve as a taster for new tech and attract a large number of their existing amateur installed base - though I'm confident that the last one fell well short of their hopes.

Development of the EF glass was at an end; the RF mount was the future. They said so, clearly. Their introductory lens choices, IMO, echoed that. There were no (apart fm a 35mm) run-of-the-mill lenses. Two exceptional f/1.2 s and zooms, one an 28-70, f/2 - glass designed to excel, pique the interest, burn a distinct hole in one's wallet but above all to serve notice that Canon were entering a new paradigm.

From a totally biased personal perspective, today, I'm looking at the lenses, their IQ and the build quality - the 85/1.2L in particular. Roger Cicala's (LensRentals) teardown and reviews tell me that the RF 's are good, very good.  What's left is the body to mount them on - and so far we've had the first of an expected total of four new bodies due this year ('announcement', I doubt delivery).

I'd  hoped for a 1D quality pro-build. From the teaser I see, what I'm guessing, is a new-generation 5D series. I doubt I'll be spending upwards of $10,000 on glass to mount on a prosumer body, other than as a backup.

IMO, the race is still wide open. Sony have market share, good bodies, a clever pricing strategy in that their older models are rolled over, reduced in price and serve as an encouragement to 'follow the line'. The issue with Sony is that despite universal praise as to the IQ of their lenses, I just don't like them. So much so, that the only native lenses I use are two Batis - an 85 and a 40 , [plus a Zeiss/Sony 55 ZA f/1.8]. On the plus side, Sigma et al will be manufacturing ART grade E-mount glass in the future.

Nikon are out of the starting gate, no more, no less. Canon likewise, but this year will be telling - I'm expecting stellar lenses in both IQ and build. If they can produce a pro-grade EOS-Rx to mount them on, that may be enough to encourage me to switch.

As it stands, my interest is piqued, but thoughts of a Leica SL2 continue to plague me.




Canon has typically been one to announce new products only soon before release, which is the strategy of a dominant player: earlier announcements largely undermine sales of the company's own existing products. This mixture of a development announcement with just a few highlight specs — along with talk of "many lenses coming soon", is instead in the style of a less dominant or even trailing player; one that want to persuade potential customers to wait a while longer, rather than buying into a competing system now (or in the cynical worst case, "jumping ship"). 
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: BJL on February 13, 2020, 09:21:49 pm
@Manoli,
    I hope I did not come across as cynical about Canon; I see Canon and Nikon in a similar position of being late-arriving but big and well-resourced contenders in the ever-more important MILC market; just that it is no longer the stronger member of a virtual duopoly at the top of the SLR market (where I include DSLRs).

A lot of what you say about Canon R applies to Nikon Z also: both companies judged that the high end niche of the D5 and EOS-1D X families is still best served by DSLRs (the D6 and 1D X Mk III being "ultimate" models much as the F6 and EOS-1V were, I expect) and so are working on other parts of the product line; in particular, with mostly very high quality lenses.

Aside: I do not agree with some criticisms that seem based on a doctrine that high quality lenses only go with big, heavy high frame rate, square-bodied "pro sports" models; I have no problem with Canon's and Nikon's initial priorities for mirrorless bodies and lenses. (Except some super-slow zooms like 24-105/4-7.1 R, 100-500/4.5-7.1 R, and 24-200/6.3 Z; those mystify me.)
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: phila on February 13, 2020, 11:47:20 pm
"(Except some super-slow zooms like 24-105/4-7.1 R, 100-500/4.5-7.1 R, and 24-200/6.3 Z; those mystify me.)"

Clearly the intent is for cheaper, smaller lenses at the "price" of having to increase your ISO from 100 to 400 (roughly), everything else being equal. Depending on the results from the new sensor that may well be a worthwhile trade - particularly for the lenses aimed at the average consumer. Again depending on results it may be a good outcome for the backpacking pro with the 100-500. I shot quite a bit with the NFD 150-600 way back in the day and concept (we'll wait to see the reality) of a 500mm lens that small definitely has appeal.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: kers on February 14, 2020, 06:11:55 am
...
Aside: I do not agree with some criticisms that seem based on a doctrine that high quality lenses only go with big, heavy high frame rate, square-bodied "pro sports" models; I have no problem with Canon's and Nikon's initial priorities for mirrorless bodies and lenses. (Except some super-slow zooms like 24-105/4-7.1 R, 100-500/4.5-7.1 R, and 24-200/6.3 Z; those mystify me.)

These slow zooms make a small lightweight zoomlens possible that you can use in daylight. Optically they can be very good. The 24-200 lens of nikon weighs only 570 gram.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 14, 2020, 07:58:15 am
One thing that puzzles me with the Nikon Z roadmap is the absence of a 85mm f1.2.

This is to me by far the most appealing lens in the Canon R line up, and Nikon should know that however amazing their 85mm f1.8 is (it may be my favourite lens ever), it just doesn’t have half the appeal of a 85mm f1.2.

Once again Nikon is let down by their abysmal marketing.

Well done Canon!!!

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: 24-105/4-7.1 and 100-500/4.5-7.1 R lenses
Post by: BJL on February 14, 2020, 10:54:41 pm
What puzzles me about f/7.1 kit zooms is that the combination of such a lens with a body like the RP (for which it seems mainly destined, as a new kit lens) mostly reduces the capabilities (speed, DOF control, etc.) to what one could get from a distinctly less expensive combination in a smaller format, using an "equivalent" lens; for example, in "APS-C equivalent" terms the Canon 24-105/4-7.1 R is a "16-70/2.7-4.7" and the 100-500/4.5-7.1 is "67-333/3-4.7" so a bit brighter at the wide end than the typical f/3.5-4.5 designs, but that is not where the speed needs mostly lie.
 
The current RP kit option of a superzoom 24-240/4-6.2 is equivalent to 18-180/2.7-4.1 which is more reasonable, though still not beyond what a viable APS-C lens could offer, and probably at a lower body+lens price.

Greater dynamic range at base ISO speed might be worth it for some customers, but I suspect not for most of the entry-level kit customers. (Aside: I expect that DR at base ISO speed will be less and less an issue due to technological advances like multi-shot frame stacking, with hand-held option now arriving.)

Still, it seems that Canon has a goal of consolidating almost everything on the 36x24mm format, and maybe the cost efficiencies of letting EF-S and M mount systems fade away are seen as being worth it in the shrinking ILC market.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on February 15, 2020, 01:34:27 am
Couldn’t care less about 8k video. I shoot video commercially and couldn’t care less about 4K quite honestly since almost everything I get paid to shoot ends upon a phone.

But the rest of the specs on this new camera are really solid looking. And Canons lens line up is very strong although expensive. I can see all this keeping current Canon users loyal to the brand but will it tempt the folk back to the fold that left for Sony in the past few years? For me not in part because I am now too heavily invested in Sony glass and I am now comfortable with the system.

Good one Canon.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: Manoli on February 15, 2020, 06:11:16 am
Couldn’t care less about 8k video. I shoot video commercially and couldn’t care less about 4K quite honestly

You, me, my grandmother and probably 90% of the target client base. But they can, so they do - future proofing.

But the rest of the specs on this new camera are really solid looking. And Canons lens line up is very strong although expensive [...] I am now too heavily invested in Sony glass and I am now comfortable with the system.

Good one Canon.

Moving forward, how long is that 'restriction' going to dominate your decision making ?

It seems clear, at least to me, that the market #1 slot is still wide open. Sony started a 'new' business model by pricing their bodies 'down' and 'upping' the pricing on their proprietary mount glass, (who'd heard of  ~$900 for a 50/1.8 ?) - it wasn't till later that the more economical ~200 buck range were introduced. The appeal of, IMO, sub-standard build quality more than 'lessened' their appeal: 70-200/4 zooms cracking in half, not-the-best teardowns by LensRentals allied to a quasi dysfuncional service/repair operation etc etc - not the stuff to inspire religious fervour amongst the masses.

So my question is where does the market go from here ?  Canon holds market share ( just look at the LensRentals Most Popular 2019 list below), followed by Sony and Nikon. What's overlooked is the L alliance : Leica, Panasonic and Sigma. Sigma has glass with native mount for both L-mount and Sony, as well as legacy CaNikon glass. Panasonic has the S1H, which AFAIK, is the only 'Netflix' approved MILC and Leica has the uber-appealing SL2. Just to nail the interoperability, both Leica and Sigma have native PL to L-mount adapters. All together a well rounded market wide offering that the CNS threesome are going to have to confront in the future ...

My point being that, as the old maxim goes ' You marry your lenses, but date your camera bodies '. Canon, by all accounts, are producing stellar glass soon to be allied to hopefully 'excellent' bodies, but will it be enough ?

All above, IMO - YMMV

A Leica, Panasonic, and Sigma L-Mount Camera Guide (https://nofilmschool.com/comprehensive-l-mount-cameras?utm_source=No+Film+School+newsletter&utm_campaign=a8825f9789-Friday+Round-up+Newsletter+2.14.20&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_00e2faa2b4-a8825f9789-425719449)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49537748067_ee2edcb3ab_z.jpg)



Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on February 15, 2020, 10:42:12 am
I will stick with Sony until I feel my lenses need a big overhaul. Then I will and see what is around. At the moment my only non Sony lens is a lovely Sigma 14 to 24. I have used too many systems in my life to feel religious about any of it. Currently I really like the Sony system but I felt like that about Leaf, Canon, Linhof and various other systems in the past. 

I am pleased to see Canon stepping up. It will prod the other manufacturers as well.
Title: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development—who has more lens inertia?
Post by: BJL on February 15, 2020, 11:04:57 am
As fas as a system's advantage of lens-ownership inertia, we seem to be in a contest of
"which 35mm format MILC system has more native lenses in use?" (Sony, well ahead of Canon and Nikon)
vs
"which 35mm format MILC system has more lenses in use?" (Canon, then Nikon, well ahead of Sony)

And about the same comparisons if instead one counts the models and variety of lens options.

I'll let others debate how good or bad it is to use EF lenses on R bodies or F lenses on Z bodies.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: Manoli on February 15, 2020, 11:05:45 am
@Martin Kristiansen
I used your post as an illustration of a dilemma many are facing, including myself.  I didn't intend any criticism. I hope you didn't interpret it that way, but if you did, my apologies.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on February 15, 2020, 11:09:39 am
@Martin Kristiansen
I used your post as an illustration of what many of us must be thinking, I didn't intend any criticism. I hope you didn't interpret it that way, but if you did, my apologies.

Not at all. I thought your post was on the money.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: sdwilsonsct on February 15, 2020, 02:37:44 pm
Several sites reporting possible early (mid-Feb) release of a pro-grade EOS-R:

This pro-grade has the features I've been missing since my amateur-oriented 50D: a joystick and a rear control dial in the usual place.  ???
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: BJL on February 15, 2020, 04:19:12 pm
Scoring the rumors, in case there is confusion between this rumor summary and what Canon subsequently announced:

Named the Canon EOS R5  YES
45mp full-frame CMOS sensor  all we know is at least 39MP, due to 8K (thanks shadowblade for the correction; I assume TV style 8K, 7680, like all 8K cameras I know of so far.)
IBIS with 5 stops stabilisation, up to 7-8 stops with optical (O.I.S) lens based stabiliisation working in tandem
IBIS and the ability to work with in-lens IS; no specs on stops of benefit.
12fps mechanical, 20fps electronic YES
Scroll wheel added to the back (HURRAH!) YES
No touch bar (HURRAH!) YES
Liveview/Movie toggle like previous EOS DSLRs (HURRAH!) [?]
Larger capacity battery, but looks like the LP-E6 [?]
8K @ 30fps
4K @ 120fps
4K @ 60fps
8K, but no further details
Built-in 5GHz WiFi
Probably: "improved transmission functionality"
Announcement ahead of CP+ next month (Feb 13th) [Sort of; not a full announcement]
Launching in July 2020 (I’m assuming this means ship date) [?]
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: shadowblade on February 18, 2020, 11:50:53 am
I like these developments. Canon's move into mirrorless provides welcome competition to Sony, will prevent Sony from resting on its laurels and will eventually provide a true alternative system.

They've done a very good job with the lenses so far, making needed, core lenses first, of good optical quality and, just as importantly, good manufacturing consistency (a persistent Sony weakness), without too many oddball, fringe lenses. (I actually like the telescoping 70-200 design - it can fit into the same space as a standard zoom or prime in a backpack, instead of taing up two 'slots'). Their bodies haven't so much been weak as they have been entry-level - so far, they've released mirrorless updates to the 6D and competitors to previous-generation Sony bodies (which are still made/supported/in-stock, sold at a discount and basically serve as Sony's 'entry level'), without a competitor to the A7r3/4 and A9i/ii.

All that seems to be changing. As well as the R5 (an obvious A7s3 competitor for the combined video/stills market), there's also talk of a 75MP body/sensor with a focus on DR - an obvious competitor to the A7r4.

I doubt Canon is ready to take on Sony's AF system for fast action yet. If it was, we would certainly have seen signs of a 400/2.8 or other fast supertele coming in time for the Tokyo Olympics - Canon already has the optical designs for these, so altering the mechanics and fitting the optics into a new lens suitable for mirrorless cameras would be relatively quick, if there were a current need for them. But it appears that they're ready to take on the A7/r/s series. Even if their AF system isn't quite there yet, that isn't so critical when competing against the A7s3 (since video is less AF-dependent than stills) or the A7r4 (since it is most frequently used in high-resolution, non-action roles, despite its AF system being more than action-capable). What this tells us is that they're making rapid progress and are taking mirrorless seriously.

I'd expect an A9 (probably A9iii) competitor in time for the 2022 soccer world cup, with a 400/2.8, and possibly other superteles, ready for the same event.

All of which suits me perfectly well. By 2024-2025, Canon should have a mature (if not fully comprehensive) mirrorless lens and body lineup, with all bases covered (action body, hi-res body, general-purpose body, entry-level body, UWA, f/2.8 zooms, f/4 zooms, fast primes, macro, superteles, lightweight long tele zoom) and a few oddball/niche lenses. By that stage, most of my Sony gear will have done its money's worth and be ripe for replacement, with second-generation (or even third-generation) versions of the 24-70/2.8, 70-200/2.8, 100-400/4.5-5.6 and other core lenses released (and the initial versions with little value left and ripe for replacement), with the A7r4 and A9 reaching the end of service life and new bodies likely boasting technologies such as global shutters. It will be good to have two equally-viable, equally-comprehensive systems to choose from at that stage, with a good market for used lenses to dispose of old gear at a fair price, and the choice of system coming down to things like the relative strengths and weaknesses of individual lenses and bodies (rather like the Canon/Nikon competition in SLRs), rather than the current situation of having no other viable system if you need a future-proofed mirrorless system with a comprehensive lens and body lineup capable of shooting anything. (Superteles likely won't need replacement, but it's easy to run a dedicated wildlife setup on a completely different system to your general photography kit, since they don't share many common components anyway - I ran a Canon action/wildlife setup alongside a Sony general kit for years).

Regarding the new lenses, I'm unsure about the 100-500 f/4.5-7.1. Depending on the details, it could be anything from an even-better 100-400L or consumer-grade rubbish. Is it basically a 100-400/4.5-5.6, similar in optics and construction, which can extend a bit further, to 500/7.1? Or is it more like a cheap Sigma/Tamron supertele zoom, designed to get reach while being budget-friendly? Most importantly, where is the transition point from f/5.6 to f/6.3 or f/7.1? If it's 400mm, it could be an even better 100-400L - the current Sony version is probably the most useful telephoto lens out there for the landscape/travel photographer, covering all your telephoto needs for landscape photography while being able to shoot the occasional wildlife shot in a pinch (great for a trip not entirely dedicated to wildlife with large lenses) and extending it to 500mm would make it even more versatile, provided there isn't an optical quality or aperture compromise (at the same focal length). I'm hoping it's the former - there are enough budget superteles out there that Canon doesn't need to bring one out too, and Canon is never going to compete with Sigma and Tamron on price.

45mp full-frame CMOS sensor  all we know is at least 33MP, due to 8K

If they maintain the 3:2 aspect ratio, it will have to be at least 39MP, if using 7680x4320 as '8k'. For 'true' 8k (8192x4608), they'd need 45MP.

For 7680px on the long side, you'd need 7680x5120, or 39MP, for a 3:2 aspect ratio.

For 8192px on the long side, you'd need 8192x5462, or 45MP, for a 3:2 aspect ratio.

If they go for 33MP and a 16:9 aspect ratio, what they have is a video camera that can take stills, not a stills camera.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: BJL on February 18, 2020, 02:34:05 pm
@shadowblade, thanks for the correction. I also agree with almost all of your assessment, except one point. Canon like Nikon clearly decided some time ago that their Tokyo Olympics photographers are better served by DSLRs, and also, Canon seems confident that its R bodies can AF as fast with adapter mounted EF lenses as with R lenses. So two reasons not to rush to produce lenses like a 400/2.8 R.

I am also curious how much the scene will change by the 2022 FIFA World Cup
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: shadowblade on February 18, 2020, 10:17:55 pm
@shadowblade, thanks for the correction. I also agree with almost all of your assessment, except one point. Canon like Nikon clearly decided some time ago that their Tokyo Olympics photographers are better served by DSLRs, and also, Canon seems confident that its R bodies can AF as fast with adapter mounted EF lenses as with R lenses. So two reasons not to rush to produce lenses like a 400/2.8 R.

I am also curious how much the scene will change by the 2022 FIFA World Cup

I'd say the reason is twofold - their mirrorless camera's aren't ready for fast action and their existing media/corporate customers already have a large number of supertele primes which aren't ready for retirement yet.

There's no point bringing out a 400/2.8 if there isn't a body ready to use it yet.

And Canon will likely keep making 1D- and 5D-level SLR bodies, possibly with incremental improvements, for one or two generations after it stops making SLR lenses, as part of ongoing support for those  who own SLR lenses,  until those lenses begin to reach the end of their usual service period. I doubt they'll be releasing too many SLR lenses from here onwards, though.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: Manoli on February 27, 2020, 04:23:32 am
And this one's just for Bernard:
61MP Nikon Z8 full-frame mirrorless camera rumored to launch in 2020 (https://www.techradar.com/news/61mp-nikon-z8-full-frame-mirrorless-camera-rumored-to-launch-in-2020?fbclid=IwAR2wbQTcW-P6mKyDgr0iINjT9V8jI6p_Q0zfgAIRm-TPEkGSZtDx_V6wWL0)

So whether it/they are 8K or 61MP doesn't really phase me (forgive the pun) , it looks a certainty that there are two higher grade (dare I say pro-build) cams on the way.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 27, 2020, 07:24:21 am
And this one's just for Bernard:
61MP Nikon Z8 full-frame mirrorless camera rumored to launch in 2020 (https://www.techradar.com/news/61mp-nikon-z8-full-frame-mirrorless-camera-rumored-to-launch-in-2020?fbclid=IwAR2wbQTcW-P6mKyDgr0iINjT9V8jI6p_Q0zfgAIRm-TPEkGSZtDx_V6wWL0)

So whether it/they are 8K or 61MP doesn't really phase me (forgive the pun) , it looks a certainty that there are two higher grade (dare I say pro-build) cams on the way.

Thanks! :)

What would impress me in a "Z8" would be:
- faster dedicated AF processor for better than firmware 3.0 AF performance (BIF,...)
- double memory slot
- ability to attach a pro vertical grip
- reduced black out when shooting at high speed
- multi-shot with good movement resolution algo
- raw histogram

Frankly the move from 46mp to 61mp wouldn't mean too much, especially if it means worse high ISO image quality (which seems to be the case for the a7rIV).

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: kers on February 27, 2020, 08:08:01 am
I would like a sensor that builts an image in 1/100 of a second (not 1/15) so i can really use a silent shutter.( problems with screens and ledlights)
But we have to go to Sony with that wish. How fast is the A9 sensor ( does anybody know?)
Also i would like a simple one button WiFI remote that i can use with the built in wifi of the camera- don't want to use my phone for that.
63mp is not of my interest, having 46mp at the moment.




Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 27, 2020, 08:24:21 am
I would like a sensor that builts an image in 1/100 of a second (not 1/15) so i can really use a silent shutter.( problems with screens and ledlights)
But we have to go to Sony with that wish. How fast is the A9 sensor ( does anybody know?)
Also i would like a simple one button WiFI remote that i can use with the built in wifi of the camera- don't want to use my phone for that.
63mp is not of my interest, having 46mp at the moment.

The readout time of the a9 sensor is 1/160.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: shadowblade on February 27, 2020, 08:44:26 am
I would like a sensor that builts an image in 1/100 of a second (not 1/15) so i can really use a silent shutter.( problems with screens and ledlights)
But we have to go to Sony with that wish. How fast is the A9 sensor ( does anybody know?)
Also i would like a simple one button WiFI remote that i can use with the built in wifi of the camera- don't want to use my phone for that.
63mp is not of my interest, having 46mp at the moment.

The next revolution in that regard is a global electronic shutter These exist, but, at present, aren't quite ready for photographic (as opposed to technical) cameras.

Anything else is really just an evolution - better, but still with the same fundamental limitations.

But a global shutter would solve several problems:
- Flicker - the whole sensor is exposed at once, so fluorescent lights will illuminate the entire scene identically within a frame. There will be variation between frames in a sequence, but not within an individual frame.
- Banding due to exposure taking place in groups of lines. Currently sometimes seen in fast-moving shots taken with electronic shutter (e.g. explosions). With a global shutter, the entire sensor is essentially one big band, with every pixel exposed at the same time, so banding due to this doesn't show up.
- Rolling shutter.
- Sync speed. A global shutter effectively gives you unlimited sync speed. You could overpower the sun with a small speedlight. Emphasis would then be on the speed of the flash (does it take 1/1000s or 1/32000s), rather than its power - you could do much more with smaller flashes.

I'd expect readiness in 4-5 years, likely with lower-resolution (action) sensors first, before the high-resolution sensors.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: BJL on February 27, 2020, 10:21:37 am
I agree with shadowblade: the one “revolution” I’m waiting on is an electronic global shutter that does not sacrifice a stop or so of dynamic range, which is the drawback of current versions.

The most promising idea I know of is a layer in front of the sensor that can be very rapidly, electrically switched between opaque and transparent. IIRC, Panasonic has talked about working on that.

Then the flapping shutter could follow the flipping mirror into retirement. Maybe keep a basic slow “sensor curtain” as a cover to protect the sensor when the camera is idle and when changing lenses.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: Rado on February 27, 2020, 11:16:48 am
I would happily sacrifice a stop or two of dynamic range for unlimited flash sync speed.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: Manoli on March 10, 2020, 06:16:50 am
OK , boys
on yer marks, rumour mill in overdrive

" As rumored before, Canon EOS R3/R5S camera to be announced later this year. The high-megapixel full frame mirrorless camera will be the replacement of EOS 5DS/5DS R. The release date for EOS R3/R5S is expected in late 2020. The rumors suggests that the EOS R3/R5S will feature with a 150MP full frame sensor "

Rumored Canon cameras to be announced in 2020 (https://www.dailycameranews.com/2019/12/canon-upcoming-cameras-2020/)

(https://www.dailycameranews.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/canon-eos-r3-r5s-rumors.jpg)
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 10, 2020, 06:13:29 pm
OK , boys
on yer marks, rumour mill in overdrive

" As rumored before, Canon EOS R3/R5S camera to be announced later this year. The high-megapixel full frame mirrorless camera will be the replacement of EOS 5DS/5DS R. The release date for EOS R3/R5S is expected in late 2020. The rumors suggests that the EOS R3/R5S will feature with a 150MP full frame sensor "

Rumored Canon cameras to be announced in 2020 (https://www.dailycameranews.com/2019/12/canon-upcoming-cameras-2020/)

(https://www.dailycameranews.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/canon-eos-r3-r5s-rumors.jpg)

Considering that even Sony is having a hard time with 60mp I find that very unlikely.

Besides it won’t happen because:
- nobody would upgrade to the next model
- it would reveal that even the excellent RF lenses have limited resolution

This is the same old marketing tactics orchestrated by Canon to make us believe in an amazingly bright future. The R5 was going to be 75 mp, the 5Ds was going to be 100mp...  ;D

I wonder why they still bother.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: chez on March 10, 2020, 07:37:56 pm

I wonder why they still bother.

Cheers,
Bernard

Because it still works. Canon is number 1 in sales of cameras and lenses.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 10, 2020, 08:24:14 pm
Because it still works. Canon is number 1 in sales of cameras and lenses.

Yes but my point is that the small % of camera buyers roaming the rumor sites actually likely to buy 3,000+ US$ cameras are mostly not believing such crazy rumors anymore. So what’s the point in spreading them?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: chez on March 10, 2020, 10:06:04 pm
Yes but my point is that the small % of camera buyers roaming the rumor sites actually likely to buy 3,000+ US$ cameras are mostly not believing such crazy rumors anymore. So what’s the point in spreading them?

Cheers,
Bernard

Really? Seems like Canon sells plenty of these cameras. Who knows what makes people buy the cameras...all I know is there is a buzz regarding the rumored high end Canon camera. If that’s the case, mission accomplished for Canon’s marketing.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: shadowblade on March 11, 2020, 02:32:21 am
This could well be accurate - from a certain point of view. It all depends how you count pixels.

A 36MP pixel has around 36 million photosites, each one reading a single R, G or B value. But a single value doesn't give you a pixel in the final image. For this, you need information from at least 3 photosites, and the classic Bayer array uses information from 4 photosites (RGBG) because it fits nicely into a square array and because human eyes are more sensitive to green wavelengths. So, a 36MP sensor has 18 million  green, 9 million red and 9 million blue photosites. But how do you get 36 million distinc pixels out of that, if each pixel requires data from four photosites? Simple - each photosite actually belongs to four different Bayer arrays (or 9, or 16, depending on the exact interpolation being used) and you have 36 million 2x2 Bayer arrays on the sensor, which overlap each other. This is the 'traditional' way to count pixels.

But it's not the only possible way. Monochrome sensors are simple - one photosite equals one pixel. Sigma's Foveon sensors count pixels differently, counting each layer of each pixel once, thus giving a 45MP pixel count (15 million each of R/G/B) even if the final image resolution is 15MP.

There are other ways to reach a nominal 150MP resolution without actually producing a final 150MP image. For instance, Canon is known to have been working on their DR problem. Are they using a more complex interpolation array to combine photosites of different sensitivity to produce a higher DR final image? For instance, 75 million photosites at ISO 100 and another 75 million at ISO 800, or 50 million each at 25/200/1600. 150 million nominal sensor-pixels, interpolated to produce a final 75 or 50 million image-pixels. (Despite its dual pixel AF, and the future potential to use a quad pixel setup, turning every pixel into a cross-type AF sensor, Canon has never counted each half of a dual-pixel pixel as a separate pixel in the final pixel count.)

In any case, even if you had a 150MP full-frame sensor, there are probably better ways to use all those photosites than simply increasing the raw spatial resolution of a standard Bayer array. You can capture an image at multiple ISOs, increasing dynamic range. You can use colour arrays containing more than just RGB, increasing colour accuracy and providing a way to distinguish, say, pure green light from a light that's actually a mixture of yellow and blue, although that would mostly be of technical/scientific interest. You can have pixels set at different polarisations - again, mostly of technical interest, although potentially useful for waterfall photography. You could even use a setup similar to the defunct Lytro Light Field camera, allowing post-exposure manipulation of the focal plane (or planes), which would be immensely useful in photography. Lytro was certainly ahead of its time in the days of 10MP sensors, since the final image would have been far too low resolution and noisy, but, with 150MP sensors available, one could end up with a very useful 36MP-or-so final image, which you could then refocus as needed in post-processing - think landscapes at 400mm with foreground and background details all in perfect focus, or group portraits with every subject in perfect focus, but the background and other distracting elements all blurred to oblivion, as if the lens were wide open. Canon certainly has the ability to manufacture such a high-resolution sensor - they demonstrated a 120MP APS-H sensor years ago. A full frame sensor with 150 million photosites (or, rather, 300 million, if each sensor pixel actually contains two photosites in a dual pixel setup) isn't out of the question. But there are better ways to use all those photosites than simply producing gigabyte-sized files (post RAW conversion) and capturing mushy detail through lenses that can't actually resolve 150MP.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 11, 2020, 04:51:32 am
We can fantasize as much as we want, but based on the track record of Canon these past 12 years vs Sony,  I keep my hopes in check.

They are a tiny sensor manufacturer and size is pretty much everything when developping semi-conductor technology.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: Manoli on March 11, 2020, 06:52:26 am
I wonder why they still bother.


I, like Bernard, took the post with a healthy grain of salt.

On reflection though there is more at play here. Of greater interest is the roadmap of (Canon) lenses in development and due to be released this year followed by the new, dare I say hopefully, pro-bodies that should accompany them.

Canon are signalling their entry into the pro mirrorless field. It's a 'blitzkrieg'.  Of the three players: Nikon , Canon, Sony (i'm omitting Leica w/ the SL2 though I view their position very much as a major player in this field) none have an insurmountable advantage over the others. There are pros and cons all round.

What is undeniable is that Canon are deploying a new standard of L glass, in a price range that, until a few months ago, was the exclusive domain of Leica. Roger Cicala is posting that they exhibit a true advance in construction and engineering. Nikon (less tested, less choice) are improved but, at first impressions, not the same level (inferred from Roger's posts). Sony are what they are. IMO, a distinct 3rd.

Moral of the story here: anyone thinking of cross or upgrading, would be well advised to sit back and watch what comes down the pipeline this year. None of the companies, seeking the #1 spot can afford to be complacent.

Think of an 800m athletics final: coming off the last bend and heading into the final straight (2020). I doubt that there'll be a photo finish.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: Manoli on March 11, 2020, 08:42:05 am
I wonder why they still bother.

Alternatively, perhaps 'cos they enjoy getting up the nostrils of Phase One and their dealers ... [/cue-silly-yellow-face]
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: kers on March 11, 2020, 10:49:00 am
...
What is undeniable is that Canon are deploying a new standard of L glass, in a price range that, until a few months ago, was the exclusive domain of Leica. Roger Cicala is posting that they exhibit a true advance in construction and engineering. Nikon (less tested, less choice) are improved but, at first impressions, not the same level (inferred from Roger's posts). Sony are what they are. IMO, a distinct 3rd....

LensRentals has frequently liked the canon built of the lens better than F-Nikons, however the S-line of Nikon is at about the same level as Canons R-glass
Roger Cicala's conclusion after tearing down the new S 24-70 f2.8 ;
Quote
As you can probably tell from our struggles doing this disassembly, the Nikon Z lenses are very different than their legacy lenses. They’re also different than what we’ve seen from other manufacturers. That suggests Nikon Z lenses, like Canon R lenses, are a completely new optomechanical design, probably done entirely in-house.

The engineering itself is incredible in most ways. The neatly laid out and solidly adhered flexes reflect the careful design. The taping of every possible point that Loctite or anything else could get in the lens does, too. The design is logical and clean; the difficulties in the tear-down were ours. Now that we know our way around, disassembly won’t be bad at all.

When it comes to optical excellence Sigma ART, Nikon, Sony, Fuji and Canon do very nice things that all rival Leica.
Nikon 0.95 lens, nikons 1.8 S lenses are very good to excellent and affordable and the S 24-70 f2.8 lens is best in class. In the passed years  they also have introduced two excellent lightweight fresnel tele's that have no competition.
Sigma has made large but truly excellent optics, not to forget the GFX lenses that are excellent and relatively inexpensive.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: Manoli on March 12, 2020, 08:47:00 am
Didn't take long ...
" Nikon is rumored to introduce more fast f/1.2 Z mirrorless prime lenses "

(https://nikonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Nikon-Nikkor-Z-mirrorless-lens-roadmap-550x425.jpg)
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: KLaban on March 12, 2020, 09:23:02 am
Didn't take long ...
" Nikon is rumored to introduce more fast f/1.2 Z mirrorless prime lenses "

(https://nikonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Nikon-Nikkor-Z-mirrorless-lens-roadmap-550x425.jpg)

Hi, I see nothing new, have you a source page link, please?
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: BJL on March 12, 2020, 09:46:16 am
Hi, have you a source page, please?
My advanced internet skills suggest searching for “Nikon rumors”
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: Manoli on March 12, 2020, 10:07:12 am
Hi, I see nothing new, have you a source page link, please?

Sorry Keith, it came up on my RSS feed, but I suspect BJL is correct (the first stop for rumours, as is CanonRumours for Canon).  I don't see any details , early pre-advice, teasers, same old marketing/advertising tactics - but the screen shot does look genuine Nikon.


Edit:
(the first stop for rumours ...)

I was referring to Nikon Rumours, not BJL
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: KLaban on March 12, 2020, 10:27:15 am
Thanks, BJL and Manoli. Nikon Rumors it was.

Nikon Rumors (https://nikonrumors.com/)

Still none the wiser. Time will tell.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: Manoli on March 13, 2020, 05:01:41 am
more specs being drip fed... from a rumour site. (https://cameratimes.org/more-canon-eos-r5-specifications-8k30p-no-crop-dpaf-animal-af/?fbclid=IwAR2o8TZFY7YIajj2hsRq8lXp2yrba-k6x87xW_W4tFiXEYTg_XROw3N9zp8)

also sighting of an R5 from a UK dealer/vendor and a Canon rep in a youtube clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p67uB8kM_Fk
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 13, 2020, 06:29:24 am
more specs being drip fed... from a rumour site. (https://cameratimes.org/more-canon-eos-r5-specifications-8k30p-no-crop-dpaf-animal-af/?fbclid=IwAR2o8TZFY7YIajj2hsRq8lXp2yrba-k6x87xW_W4tFiXEYTg_XROw3N9zp8)

If I am not wrong the only thing that’s new is the mention of an October availability?

The corona is mentionned as the reason but I wouldn’t be surprised if the 1DxIII freezing after 5 frames had caused a huge questionning inside Canon causing a deep reengineering of their QA processes.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: Manoli on March 13, 2020, 08:27:48 am
If I am not wrong the only thing that’s new is the mention of an October availability?

plus a few more details to fill in the blanks on BJL's checklist..

The corona is mentionned as the reason but I wouldn’t be surprised if the 1DxIII freezing after 5 frames had caused a huge questionning inside Canon causing a deep reengineering of their QA processes.

Bernard, we all know that hell will freeze over before you'll ever be seen with a Canon in hand ...  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: chez on March 13, 2020, 10:17:29 am
If I am not wrong the only thing that’s new is the mention of an October availability?

The corona is mentionned as the reason but I wouldn’t be surprised if the 1DxIII freezing after 5 frames had caused a huge questionning inside Canon causing a deep reengineering of their QA processes.

Cheers,
Bernard

So has Nikon figured out how not to spit oil all over the sensor?

How about the VR issues on their mirrorless cameras?

Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 13, 2020, 06:14:28 pm
Bernard, we all know that hell will freeze over before you'll ever be seen with a Canon in hand ...  ;D ;D ;D

Well Canon certainly doesn’t make it easy to buy into the brand by announcing a product with vague specs 6 months before availability and affecting they top of the notch unbreakable Olympic camera with a bug so critical that it prevents the most basic operation of the camera... taking pictures in sequence.

But I am still interested in the R5 and a couple of RF lenses.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 13, 2020, 06:22:54 pm
So has Nikon figured out how not to spit oil all over the sensor?

How about the VR issues on their mirrorless cameras?

I am not sure why you feel the urge to bring these old Nikon issues in a Canon R5 thread, but as far as I can tell both issues were fixed a long time ago and Nikon seems to be able nowadays to detect/fix issues before shipping products. It still is no excuse for these inacceptable problems.

Note though that none of those affected their D1-5 pro series and that none of those prevented the photographer from taking pictures. I would think that nobody got fired because of them.

Would you agree with me that they are therefore an order of magnitude less critical than the 1DxIII issue?

Do you think that Canon deserves a pass on this issue?

Do you not think it could have an impact on the delay of the R5?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: chez on March 13, 2020, 06:57:07 pm
I am not sure why you feel the urge to bring these old Nikon issues in a Canon R5 thread, but as far as I can tell both issues were fixed a long time ago and Nikon seems to be able nowadays to detect/fix issues before shipping products. It still is no excuse for these inacceptable problems.

Note though that none of those affected their D1-5 pro series and that none of those prevented the photographer from taking pictures. I would think that nobody got fired because of them.

Would you agree with me that they are therefore an order of magnitude less critical than the 1DxIII issue?

Do you think that Canon deserves a pass on this issue?

Do you not think it could have an impact on the delay of the R5?

Cheers,
Bernard

No Bernard Canon nor Nikon nor Sony nor Fuji deserve a pass on the issues they let slip through...but it seems you love to slam every manufacturer than your dear Nikon...which is all golden.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: Manoli on March 13, 2020, 08:42:21 pm
Boys, boys, boys.

I started this thread not to have another canikon bust-up, but on the announcement of a long overdue Canon pro body, the mirrorless market was, IMO, finally shaping up for a battle royal over the #1 spot. In all likelihood, we'll eventually look back on a watershed year.

Four major players, from what I see with different strategies, different pluses - all coming to a head. None of the companies are undeserving of criticism over their recent past, but past it is. Were moving into the moment when MILC should soon consign the DSLR to history - so what comes down now will have added importance 'cos neither Canon or Nikon are licensing their AF systems or lens mounts ( stand to be corrected on this) thus a buyer will be committing to a proprietary sytem.

Much as I'm piqued by the Canon 85/1.2, for sure, I won't be buying it to put it on a D6 MII spec body with a medium grade sensor. Likewise, Nikon have some excellent lenses but I'd not return to the fold until there's a D3/D3x (or later) quality pro body - albeit that they seem to have a different lens strategy/focus to Canon.

So can we keep the input to focussing on constructive criticism (and praise when deserved) as opposed to arbitrarily declaring a single item 'best-in-class' etc etc 'cos that, I think, would make this a more interesting and valuable thread as we move through the year.

--
[disclosure: I'm running an A7II/A7rII with a couple of Batis' lenses, having sold my 'pro' gear (except for a profoto B4) over 4 years ago - so I'm open minded, not needing to switch, but not averse to it - depends entirely on what comes down!]

Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: Manoli on March 13, 2020, 08:52:50 pm
Would you agree with me that they are therefore an order of magnitude less critical than the 1DxIII issue?

I seem to remember that this 'hiccup' kinda happened back in the days of an early 1Ds(?). Canon sent a whole team down to work through the AF problems with one Rob Galbraith. The rest, as they say, is history. Time will tell how/if it impacts the sales of either of the new bodies.

Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 13, 2020, 09:55:27 pm
No Bernard Canon nor Nikon nor Sony nor Fuji deserve a pass on the issues they let slip through...but it seems you love to slam every manufacturer than your dear Nikon...which is all golden.

Not at all, I have been very critical of Nikon when they deserved it.

It’s an urban legend that you keep repeating.

But it’s totally irrelevant to this thread.

I find the R5 potentially interesting and some RF lenses are appealing, mostly the 85mm f1.2 indeed.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: kers on March 14, 2020, 08:22:23 am
In the past i waited and waited for a real Pro 50mm nikkor lens that did not come; In the end i was very happy Sigma made the 50mm ART .
Now Nikon starts with a 58mm0.95S , 50mm 1.8S and  a 50mm 1.2S lens...

The Nikkor line up till 2021 shows what comes, but also what doesn't come...   Apart from this 50mm 1.2 no faster lens than 1.8
Combined with the fact that you can buy only a few other brands lenses on the Z camera's - that is weak point.

Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 14, 2020, 09:50:02 am
In the past i waited and waited for a real Pro 50mm nikkor lens that did not come; In the end i was very happy Sigma made the 50mm ART .
Now Nikon starts with a 58mm0.95S , 50mm 1.8S and  a 50mm 1.2S lens...

The Nikkor line up till 2021 shows what comes, but also what doesn't come...   Apart from this 50mm 1.2 no faster lens than 1.8
Combined with the fact that you can buy only a few other brands lenses on the Z camera's - that is weak point.

True but you can adapt Sony glass to the Nikon Z bodies with TechArt adapter.

Works fine with AF for static subjects.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: Manoli on March 14, 2020, 09:54:24 am
Combined with the fact that you can buy only a few other brands lenses on the Z camera's - that is weak point.

AFAIK, the z-mount / nikon AF system is proprietary and not licenced (unlike Sony).
The only way of extending lens selection is through the ftz adapter which at this point is something of a retrograde step, particularly if the new super-sensors materialize.

Edit:
@kers
A few posts back you memtioned Sigma ART.
Sigma, in case you missed it, are part of the new 'L' (Leica) alliance.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: chez on March 14, 2020, 10:01:52 am
True but you can adapt Sony glass to the Nikon Z bodies with TechArt adapter.

Works fine with AF for static subjects.

Cheers,
Bernard

Manual focus works fine for static subjects...but many shoot subjects that move. I too use an adapter for some Canon lenses on my Sony cameras, but mostly landscapes. For my travel / cultural photography its native lenses all the way as I just don't want to struggle with the slower focus on adapted lenses.

The one smart move by Sony is their open lens mount which allows 3rd party lens providers to develop lenses for the Sony cameras without having to reverse engineer the lens protocols. Sigma has released some amazingly good lenses for the Sony mount which AF just as good as native Sony lenses.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: kers on March 14, 2020, 10:32:58 am
I agree it is not the way to go to buy static and moving subject lenses...

I am aware of the L-mount aliance...
My position is i have a d850 and very fine Nikkor and Sigma lenses that go beyond 46MP.
The quality that the images have are astounding so i just wait and see how things are developing since there is so much movement everywhere.
I just developed some Nikon 3DX images ( the first 24MP-10 years ago 6000€)  to find out how much the quality (sensor and optical) has improved the last decade up to a level that it is beyond my commercial needs. For me if there is a weak link it is the usability - AF, wifi-connection, shuttersound, sensor refreshrate...
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: BJL on March 14, 2020, 04:02:12 pm
The limitation with R and Z cameras seems to be third party lenses rather than all adapted lenses: last I read, Canon and Nikon SLR lenses perform fine via adaptors, and there are lots of those lenses.

What, if anything, is the evidence that the performance of “F on Z” or “EF on R” will hamper photographers (in terms of getting the results they want or need in practice,  not just in a resolution numbers game)
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: Manoli on March 14, 2020, 09:39:36 pm
The limitation with R and Z cameras seems to be third party lenses rather than all adapted lenses: last I read, Canon and Nikon SLR lenses perform fine via adaptors, and there are lots of those lenses.

What, if anything, is the evidence that the performance of “F on Z” or “EF on R” will hamper photographers (in terms of getting the results they want or need in practice,  not just in a resolution numbers game)

Fairly pointless in investing in the new systems if you're basing your usage on legacy EF/F lines. Canon supplied an adapter with each R body. That was then. New high-end lenses now need new high-end bodies, or vice versa, depending on where one's priorities are.

Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: BJL on March 15, 2020, 12:20:42 am
Fairly pointless in investing in the new systems if you're basing your usage on legacy EF/F lines. Canon supplied an adapter with each R body. That was then. New high-end lenses now need new high-end bodies, or vice versa, depending on where one's priorities are.
It can be a mix of new and old: lenses from the new system where they are the best choice, plus some SLR lenses, either already owned or that for now fill gaps in the new lens system. (My MFT setup is like that, with a couple of Four Thirds SLR lenses I had with my Four Thirds bodies, alongside mostly smaller, lighter MFT lenses; I use what best suits the outing)
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on March 15, 2020, 02:14:39 am
The limitation with R and Z cameras seems to be third party lenses rather than all adapted lenses: last I read, Canon and Nikon SLR lenses perform fine via adaptors, and there are lots of those lenses.

What, if anything, is the evidence that the performance of “F on Z” or “EF on R” will hamper photographers (in terms of getting the results they want or need in practice,  not just in a resolution numbers game)

It does seem that adapted lenses used with Nikon or Canon adapters work very well on their respective mirrorless systems. Do the new native lenses work better in respect to the new AF systems on the mirrorless bodies? I know canon lenses adapted to Sony using third party adapters don't work as well as native glass but that is a very different scenario.

For myself I no longer buy manual focussing lenses as I have come to rely very heavily on AF and regularly shoot stuff that years ago would have been really difficult to pull off. The reported poor AF of the very expensive Sony 85mm 1,4 is the reason I am not buying that lens.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 15, 2020, 02:39:26 am
The limitation with R and Z cameras seems to be third party lenses rather than all adapted lenses: last I read, Canon and Nikon SLR lenses perform fine via adaptors, and there are lots of those lenses.

What, if anything, is the evidence that the performance of “F on Z” or “EF on R” will hamper photographers (in terms of getting the results they want or need in practice,  not just in a resolution numbers game)

I am personally getting more tack sharp images with my 105mm f1.4 at f1.4 on the Z7 than I did on the D850.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 25, 2020, 01:23:48 am
I am personally getting more tack sharp images with my 105mm f1.4 at f1.4 on the Z7 than I did on the D850.

Cheers,
Bernard
Jim Kasson has done a lot of good job on focusing accuracy and he really found the Z-series to be far more accurate than the D850.

But, it seems that the Z-series has a lot of focusing modes and they are not created equal.

Achieving correct/optimal/best focus matter a lot for best sharpness, especially with good lenses.

Best regards
Erik
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: Manoli on March 31, 2020, 10:12:23 am
I am personally getting more tack sharp images with my 105mm f1.4 ...

Wrong thread but too good to miss [/sense-of-levity-required]:

Lachlan Baileyn on Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/p/B-Zm33AnNEq/?igshid=1nmo2vcmnferw

Quote
My first assistant @jakemerrill and I worked pretty hard to capture a 70s diffused look in-camera, using old lenses and a bunch of other analogue tricks. Hard to appreciate on a small screen but I was really happy with how it looked as a print.

> How do you do it? I was always curious how David Hamilton got that gauzy look
> Apparently he used to breath on the lens .... I tried that but it just seemed too Creepy lol  <3

Bernard, Bernard are you still there ?
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: BernardLanguillier on April 01, 2020, 08:25:06 am
Wrong thread but too good to miss [/sense-of-levity-required]:

Lachlan Baileyn on Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/p/B-Zm33AnNEq/?igshid=1nmo2vcmnferw

Bernard, Bernard are you still there ?

yes yes... it goes to show that a B&W photograph of a beautiful woman wearing a slightly transparent top and no bra doesn't require much sharpness at all... :)

Why am I not surprised?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: D White on April 20, 2020, 11:23:21 pm
The elephant in the room; will Canon actually have a decent sensor after a decade or more in the dark ages.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: Dinarius on April 22, 2020, 04:01:57 am
Will be interesting to see how this camera is received.

I am a Canon 5D MkIV user. If I was doing it all again, I'd be a Sony user. But, I have too many Canon lenses to change now.

Seriously, who needs 8k? Who is this camera really aimed at? If someone really needs 8k, do they buy or hire a RED or some such? Indeed, do they hire a videographer with same and get him/her to do the shoot?

I am also a Hasselblad user, and I've seen both Hasselblad and Sony regularly improve their top end camera's features through regular firmware upgrades. What has Canon done with the 5D MkIV in this regard? Zip. With Canon, what you buy is what you're stuck with....until they release their next camera. (Unless it's a firmware upgrade to fix a bug, or to add connectivity for a new lens.)

Others on this thread have criticized Nikon and Canon for being behind the curve (my phrase). I have to agree. Sony have blown a very large hole in the good ship Canon/Nikon, and good for them. Who regularly uses Sony sensors in their cameras? Right. And do Sony ever use Canon or Nikon sensors in their cameras? Right again.

As I say, I will be interested to read some no holds barred reviews of the R5. But, I won't be buying one.

D.

Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on April 22, 2020, 02:57:01 pm
Considering that even Sony is having a hard time with 60mp I find that very unlikely.

Besides it won’t happen because:
(...)
- it would reveal that even the excellent RF lenses have limited resolution

This is often heard as a mantra "lenses cannot perform with so many Mpx". Then it comes the real world: the optical resolution of lens + sensor is a continuous system and adding more Mpx will always have a benefit in the final result. In particular you just need to go to DPreview studio comparison and see that any current high Mpx count camera suffers aliasing artifacts over high frequency areas, even with Canon EF or Nikon F lenses:

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=canon_eos5dsr&attr13_1=nikon_d850&attr13_2=sony_a7riv&attr13_3=nikon_z7&attr15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&attr16_0=100&attr16_1=100&attr16_2=100&attr16_3=100&attr126_2=1&normalization=full&widget=1&x=-0.6423876758574629&y=0.4132831116901664

Translation: there is still a lot of room for improvement by adding more Mpx. Current lenses, even the "old" ones, allow for it. Another story is if many users will be able to enjoy all that captured detail in their applications, which is a robust reason not to want 100Mpx.

Regards
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: kers on April 22, 2020, 03:20:41 pm
This is often heard as a mantra "lenses cannot performs with so many Mpx". Then it comes the real world: optical resolution is a continuous system and adding more Mpx will always have a benefit in the final result. In particular you just need to go to DPreview studio comparison and see that any current high Mpx count camera can produce aliasing artifacts on high frequency areas, even with Canon EF or Nikon F lenses:

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=canon_eos5dsr&attr13_1=nikon_d850&attr13_2=sony_a7riv&attr13_3=nikon_z7&attr15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&attr16_0=100&attr16_1=100&attr16_2=100&attr16_3=100&attr126_2=1&normalization=full&widget=1&x=-0.6423876758574629&y=0.4132831116901664

Translation: there is still a lot of room for improvement by adding more Mpx. Current lenses, even the "old" ones, allow for it. Another story is if many users will be able to enjoy all that captured detail in their applications, which is a robust reason not to want 100Mpx.

Regards

You are talking about the central part of the lens- in the corners it is another story- if they can do 24MP it is very good- especially wide angle lenses.
I see that some of my lenses can do 150MP in the central area at the best aperture.
About the enormous amount of detail- i agree, many photos don't need it.
At the moment i am scanning my 35mm slides before the colour vanishes.
In those days you just looked at the image as a whole. it is astonishing to see how much the technical quality has improved over the years, both in colour and in detail.
Looking back i would have chosen Kodachrome slides- They keep the colours best and produce lots of detail. But i did not like the colours of Kodachrome so i choose Agfa.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on April 22, 2020, 03:26:43 pm
You are talking about the central part of the lens
Which strangely is the area that often matters the most :D

Anyway if you look at the Dpreview still life, it is not the central part of the image where the aliased subjects are located.

Regards

PS: anyone interested to know how aliasing sounds: https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=134706.0