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Author Topic: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development  (Read 4366 times)

phila

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Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2020, 11:47:20 pm »

"(Except some super-slow zooms like 24-105/4-7.1 R, 100-500/4.5-7.1 R, and 24-200/6.3 Z; those mystify me.)"

Clearly the intent is for cheaper, smaller lenses at the "price" of having to increase your ISO from 100 to 400 (roughly), everything else being equal. Depending on the results from the new sensor that may well be a worthwhile trade - particularly for the lenses aimed at the average consumer. Again depending on results it may be a good outcome for the backpacking pro with the 100-500. I shot quite a bit with the NFD 150-600 way back in the day and concept (we'll wait to see the reality) of a 500mm lens that small definitely has appeal.

kers

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Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2020, 06:11:55 am »

...
Aside: I do not agree with some criticisms that seem based on a doctrine that high quality lenses only go with big, heavy high frame rate, square-bodied "pro sports" models; I have no problem with Canon's and Nikon's initial priorities for mirrorless bodies and lenses. (Except some super-slow zooms like 24-105/4-7.1 R, 100-500/4.5-7.1 R, and 24-200/6.3 Z; those mystify me.)

These slow zooms make a small lightweight zoomlens possible that you can use in daylight. Optically they can be very good. The 24-200 lens of nikon weighs only 570 gram.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2020, 07:58:15 am »

One thing that puzzles me with the Nikon Z roadmap is the absence of a 85mm f1.2.

This is to me by far the most appealing lens in the Canon R line up, and Nikon should know that however amazing their 85mm f1.8 is (it may be my favourite lens ever), it just doesn’t have half the appeal of a 85mm f1.2.

Once again Nikon is let down by their abysmal marketing.

Well done Canon!!!

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 08:01:54 am by BernardLanguillier »
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BJL

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24-105/4-7.1 and 100-500/4.5-7.1 R lenses
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2020, 10:54:41 pm »

What puzzles me about f/7.1 kit zooms is that the combination of such a lens with a body like the RP (for which it seems mainly destined, as a new kit lens) mostly reduces the capabilities (speed, DOF control, etc.) to what one could get from a distinctly less expensive combination in a smaller format, using an "equivalent" lens; for example, in "APS-C equivalent" terms the Canon 24-105/4-7.1 R is a "16-70/2.7-4.7" and the 100-500/4.5-7.1 is "67-333/3-4.7" so a bit brighter at the wide end than the typical f/3.5-4.5 designs, but that is not where the speed needs mostly lie.
 
The current RP kit option of a superzoom 24-240/4-6.2 is equivalent to 18-180/2.7-4.1 which is more reasonable, though still not beyond what a viable APS-C lens could offer, and probably at a lower body+lens price.

Greater dynamic range at base ISO speed might be worth it for some customers, but I suspect not for most of the entry-level kit customers. (Aside: I expect that DR at base ISO speed will be less and less an issue due to technological advances like multi-shot frame stacking, with hand-held option now arriving.)

Still, it seems that Canon has a goal of consolidating almost everything on the 36x24mm format, and maybe the cost efficiencies of letting EF-S and M mount systems fade away are seen as being worth it in the shrinking ILC market.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2020, 10:55:58 am by BJL »
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2020, 01:34:27 am »

Couldn’t care less about 8k video. I shoot video commercially and couldn’t care less about 4K quite honestly since almost everything I get paid to shoot ends upon a phone.

But the rest of the specs on this new camera are really solid looking. And Canons lens line up is very strong although expensive. I can see all this keeping current Canon users loyal to the brand but will it tempt the folk back to the fold that left for Sony in the past few years? For me not in part because I am now too heavily invested in Sony glass and I am now comfortable with the system.

Good one Canon.
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Manoli

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Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2020, 06:11:16 am »

Couldn’t care less about 8k video. I shoot video commercially and couldn’t care less about 4K quite honestly

You, me, my grandmother and probably 90% of the target client base. But they can, so they do - future proofing.

But the rest of the specs on this new camera are really solid looking. And Canons lens line up is very strong although expensive [...] I am now too heavily invested in Sony glass and I am now comfortable with the system.

Good one Canon.

Moving forward, how long is that 'restriction' going to dominate your decision making ?

It seems clear, at least to me, that the market #1 slot is still wide open. Sony started a 'new' business model by pricing their bodies 'down' and 'upping' the pricing on their proprietary mount glass, (who'd heard of  ~$900 for a 50/1.8 ?) - it wasn't till later that the more economical ~200 buck range were introduced. The appeal of, IMO, sub-standard build quality more than 'lessened' their appeal: 70-200/4 zooms cracking in half, not-the-best teardowns by LensRentals allied to a quasi dysfuncional service/repair operation etc etc - not the stuff to inspire religious fervour amongst the masses.

So my question is where does the market go from here ?  Canon holds market share ( just look at the LensRentals Most Popular 2019 list below), followed by Sony and Nikon. What's overlooked is the L alliance : Leica, Panasonic and Sigma. Sigma has glass with native mount for both L-mount and Sony, as well as legacy CaNikon glass. Panasonic has the S1H, which AFAIK, is the only 'Netflix' approved MILC and Leica has the uber-appealing SL2. Just to nail the interoperability, both Leica and Sigma have native PL to L-mount adapters. All together a well rounded market wide offering that the CNS threesome are going to have to confront in the future ...

My point being that, as the old maxim goes ' You marry your lenses, but date your camera bodies '. Canon, by all accounts, are producing stellar glass soon to be allied to hopefully 'excellent' bodies, but will it be enough ?

All above, IMO - YMMV

A Leica, Panasonic, and Sigma L-Mount Camera Guide





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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2020, 10:42:12 am »

I will stick with Sony until I feel my lenses need a big overhaul. Then I will and see what is around. At the moment my only non Sony lens is a lovely Sigma 14 to 24. I have used too many systems in my life to feel religious about any of it. Currently I really like the Sony system but I felt like that about Leaf, Canon, Linhof and various other systems in the past. 

I am pleased to see Canon stepping up. It will prod the other manufacturers as well.
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BJL

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Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development—who has more lens inertia?
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2020, 11:04:57 am »

As fas as a system's advantage of lens-ownership inertia, we seem to be in a contest of
"which 35mm format MILC system has more native lenses in use?" (Sony, well ahead of Canon and Nikon)
vs
"which 35mm format MILC system has more lenses in use?" (Canon, then Nikon, well ahead of Sony)

And about the same comparisons if instead one counts the models and variety of lens options.

I'll let others debate how good or bad it is to use EF lenses on R bodies or F lenses on Z bodies.
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Manoli

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Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2020, 11:05:45 am »

@Martin Kristiansen
I used your post as an illustration of a dilemma many are facing, including myself.  I didn't intend any criticism. I hope you didn't interpret it that way, but if you did, my apologies.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2020, 11:11:51 am by Manoli »
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2020, 11:09:39 am »

@Martin Kristiansen
I used your post as an illustration of what many of us must be thinking, I didn't intend any criticism. I hope you didn't interpret it that way, but if you did, my apologies.

Not at all. I thought your post was on the money.
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sdwilsonsct

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Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2020, 02:37:44 pm »

Several sites reporting possible early (mid-Feb) release of a pro-grade EOS-R:

This pro-grade has the features I've been missing since my amateur-oriented 50D: a joystick and a rear control dial in the usual place.  ???

BJL

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Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2020, 04:19:12 pm »

Scoring the rumors, in case there is confusion between this rumor summary and what Canon subsequently announced:

Named the Canon EOS R5  YES
45mp full-frame CMOS sensor  all we know is at least 39MP, due to 8K (thanks shadowblade for the correction; I assume TV style 8K, 7680, like all 8K cameras I know of so far.)
IBIS with 5 stops stabilisation, up to 7-8 stops with optical (O.I.S) lens based stabiliisation working in tandem
IBIS and the ability to work with in-lens IS; no specs on stops of benefit.
12fps mechanical, 20fps electronic YES
Scroll wheel added to the back (HURRAH!) YES
No touch bar (HURRAH!) YES
Liveview/Movie toggle like previous EOS DSLRs (HURRAH!) [?]
Larger capacity battery, but looks like the LP-E6 [?]
8K @ 30fps
4K @ 120fps
4K @ 60fps
8K, but no further details
Built-in 5GHz WiFi
Probably: "improved transmission functionality"
Announcement ahead of CP+ next month (Feb 13th) [Sort of; not a full announcement]
Launching in July 2020 (I’m assuming this means ship date) [?]
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 02:27:25 pm by BJL »
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shadowblade

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Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2020, 11:50:53 am »

I like these developments. Canon's move into mirrorless provides welcome competition to Sony, will prevent Sony from resting on its laurels and will eventually provide a true alternative system.

They've done a very good job with the lenses so far, making needed, core lenses first, of good optical quality and, just as importantly, good manufacturing consistency (a persistent Sony weakness), without too many oddball, fringe lenses. (I actually like the telescoping 70-200 design - it can fit into the same space as a standard zoom or prime in a backpack, instead of taing up two 'slots'). Their bodies haven't so much been weak as they have been entry-level - so far, they've released mirrorless updates to the 6D and competitors to previous-generation Sony bodies (which are still made/supported/in-stock, sold at a discount and basically serve as Sony's 'entry level'), without a competitor to the A7r3/4 and A9i/ii.

All that seems to be changing. As well as the R5 (an obvious A7s3 competitor for the combined video/stills market), there's also talk of a 75MP body/sensor with a focus on DR - an obvious competitor to the A7r4.

I doubt Canon is ready to take on Sony's AF system for fast action yet. If it was, we would certainly have seen signs of a 400/2.8 or other fast supertele coming in time for the Tokyo Olympics - Canon already has the optical designs for these, so altering the mechanics and fitting the optics into a new lens suitable for mirrorless cameras would be relatively quick, if there were a current need for them. But it appears that they're ready to take on the A7/r/s series. Even if their AF system isn't quite there yet, that isn't so critical when competing against the A7s3 (since video is less AF-dependent than stills) or the A7r4 (since it is most frequently used in high-resolution, non-action roles, despite its AF system being more than action-capable). What this tells us is that they're making rapid progress and are taking mirrorless seriously.

I'd expect an A9 (probably A9iii) competitor in time for the 2022 soccer world cup, with a 400/2.8, and possibly other superteles, ready for the same event.

All of which suits me perfectly well. By 2024-2025, Canon should have a mature (if not fully comprehensive) mirrorless lens and body lineup, with all bases covered (action body, hi-res body, general-purpose body, entry-level body, UWA, f/2.8 zooms, f/4 zooms, fast primes, macro, superteles, lightweight long tele zoom) and a few oddball/niche lenses. By that stage, most of my Sony gear will have done its money's worth and be ripe for replacement, with second-generation (or even third-generation) versions of the 24-70/2.8, 70-200/2.8, 100-400/4.5-5.6 and other core lenses released (and the initial versions with little value left and ripe for replacement), with the A7r4 and A9 reaching the end of service life and new bodies likely boasting technologies such as global shutters. It will be good to have two equally-viable, equally-comprehensive systems to choose from at that stage, with a good market for used lenses to dispose of old gear at a fair price, and the choice of system coming down to things like the relative strengths and weaknesses of individual lenses and bodies (rather like the Canon/Nikon competition in SLRs), rather than the current situation of having no other viable system if you need a future-proofed mirrorless system with a comprehensive lens and body lineup capable of shooting anything. (Superteles likely won't need replacement, but it's easy to run a dedicated wildlife setup on a completely different system to your general photography kit, since they don't share many common components anyway - I ran a Canon action/wildlife setup alongside a Sony general kit for years).

Regarding the new lenses, I'm unsure about the 100-500 f/4.5-7.1. Depending on the details, it could be anything from an even-better 100-400L or consumer-grade rubbish. Is it basically a 100-400/4.5-5.6, similar in optics and construction, which can extend a bit further, to 500/7.1? Or is it more like a cheap Sigma/Tamron supertele zoom, designed to get reach while being budget-friendly? Most importantly, where is the transition point from f/5.6 to f/6.3 or f/7.1? If it's 400mm, it could be an even better 100-400L - the current Sony version is probably the most useful telephoto lens out there for the landscape/travel photographer, covering all your telephoto needs for landscape photography while being able to shoot the occasional wildlife shot in a pinch (great for a trip not entirely dedicated to wildlife with large lenses) and extending it to 500mm would make it even more versatile, provided there isn't an optical quality or aperture compromise (at the same focal length). I'm hoping it's the former - there are enough budget superteles out there that Canon doesn't need to bring one out too, and Canon is never going to compete with Sigma and Tamron on price.

45mp full-frame CMOS sensor  all we know is at least 33MP, due to 8K

If they maintain the 3:2 aspect ratio, it will have to be at least 39MP, if using 7680x4320 as '8k'. For 'true' 8k (8192x4608), they'd need 45MP.

For 7680px on the long side, you'd need 7680x5120, or 39MP, for a 3:2 aspect ratio.

For 8192px on the long side, you'd need 8192x5462, or 45MP, for a 3:2 aspect ratio.

If they go for 33MP and a 16:9 aspect ratio, what they have is a video camera that can take stills, not a stills camera.
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BJL

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Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2020, 02:34:05 pm »

@shadowblade, thanks for the correction. I also agree with almost all of your assessment, except one point. Canon like Nikon clearly decided some time ago that their Tokyo Olympics photographers are better served by DSLRs, and also, Canon seems confident that its R bodies can AF as fast with adapter mounted EF lenses as with R lenses. So two reasons not to rush to produce lenses like a 400/2.8 R.

I am also curious how much the scene will change by the 2022 FIFA World Cup
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shadowblade

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Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2020, 10:17:55 pm »

@shadowblade, thanks for the correction. I also agree with almost all of your assessment, except one point. Canon like Nikon clearly decided some time ago that their Tokyo Olympics photographers are better served by DSLRs, and also, Canon seems confident that its R bodies can AF as fast with adapter mounted EF lenses as with R lenses. So two reasons not to rush to produce lenses like a 400/2.8 R.

I am also curious how much the scene will change by the 2022 FIFA World Cup

I'd say the reason is twofold - their mirrorless camera's aren't ready for fast action and their existing media/corporate customers already have a large number of supertele primes which aren't ready for retirement yet.

There's no point bringing out a 400/2.8 if there isn't a body ready to use it yet.

And Canon will likely keep making 1D- and 5D-level SLR bodies, possibly with incremental improvements, for one or two generations after it stops making SLR lenses, as part of ongoing support for those  who own SLR lenses,  until those lenses begin to reach the end of their usual service period. I doubt they'll be releasing too many SLR lenses from here onwards, though.
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Manoli

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Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2020, 04:23:32 am »

And this one's just for Bernard:
61MP Nikon Z8 full-frame mirrorless camera rumored to launch in 2020

So whether it/they are 8K or 61MP doesn't really phase me (forgive the pun) , it looks a certainty that there are two higher grade (dare I say pro-build) cams on the way.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2020, 07:24:21 am »

And this one's just for Bernard:
61MP Nikon Z8 full-frame mirrorless camera rumored to launch in 2020

So whether it/they are 8K or 61MP doesn't really phase me (forgive the pun) , it looks a certainty that there are two higher grade (dare I say pro-build) cams on the way.

Thanks! :)

What would impress me in a "Z8" would be:
- faster dedicated AF processor for better than firmware 3.0 AF performance (BIF,...)
- double memory slot
- ability to attach a pro vertical grip
- reduced black out when shooting at high speed
- multi-shot with good movement resolution algo
- raw histogram

Frankly the move from 46mp to 61mp wouldn't mean too much, especially if it means worse high ISO image quality (which seems to be the case for the a7rIV).

Cheers,
Bernard

kers

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Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2020, 08:08:01 am »

I would like a sensor that builts an image in 1/100 of a second (not 1/15) so i can really use a silent shutter.( problems with screens and ledlights)
But we have to go to Sony with that wish. How fast is the A9 sensor ( does anybody know?)
Also i would like a simple one button WiFI remote that i can use with the built in wifi of the camera- don't want to use my phone for that.
63mp is not of my interest, having 46mp at the moment.




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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
« Reply #38 on: February 27, 2020, 08:24:21 am »

I would like a sensor that builts an image in 1/100 of a second (not 1/15) so i can really use a silent shutter.( problems with screens and ledlights)
But we have to go to Sony with that wish. How fast is the A9 sensor ( does anybody know?)
Also i would like a simple one button WiFI remote that i can use with the built in wifi of the camera- don't want to use my phone for that.
63mp is not of my interest, having 46mp at the moment.

The readout time of the a9 sensor is 1/160.

Cheers,
Bernard

shadowblade

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Re: Canon Confirms 8K EOS R Camera in Development
« Reply #39 on: February 27, 2020, 08:44:26 am »

I would like a sensor that builts an image in 1/100 of a second (not 1/15) so i can really use a silent shutter.( problems with screens and ledlights)
But we have to go to Sony with that wish. How fast is the A9 sensor ( does anybody know?)
Also i would like a simple one button WiFI remote that i can use with the built in wifi of the camera- don't want to use my phone for that.
63mp is not of my interest, having 46mp at the moment.

The next revolution in that regard is a global electronic shutter These exist, but, at present, aren't quite ready for photographic (as opposed to technical) cameras.

Anything else is really just an evolution - better, but still with the same fundamental limitations.

But a global shutter would solve several problems:
- Flicker - the whole sensor is exposed at once, so fluorescent lights will illuminate the entire scene identically within a frame. There will be variation between frames in a sequence, but not within an individual frame.
- Banding due to exposure taking place in groups of lines. Currently sometimes seen in fast-moving shots taken with electronic shutter (e.g. explosions). With a global shutter, the entire sensor is essentially one big band, with every pixel exposed at the same time, so banding due to this doesn't show up.
- Rolling shutter.
- Sync speed. A global shutter effectively gives you unlimited sync speed. You could overpower the sun with a small speedlight. Emphasis would then be on the speed of the flash (does it take 1/1000s or 1/32000s), rather than its power - you could do much more with smaller flashes.

I'd expect readiness in 4-5 years, likely with lower-resolution (action) sensors first, before the high-resolution sensors.
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