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Author Topic: Incursions into Syria  (Read 26446 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #140 on: October 18, 2019, 10:35:19 pm »

Stop dodging your personal responsibility.

So you agree with the unnecessary sacifice of other people, unless they are American, or not?
You're Monday morning quarterbacking.  Look what happened when Obama removed our troops in 2011?  Thousands of people were killed and millions displaced by the terror of ISIS which grew out of the vacuum he created. 

Trump didn't authorize the Turks to move.  In any case, the Kurds knew what was coming.  Trump had been telling everyone for months he was going to pull our troops out of there.  What were the Kurds waiting for?    They knew it was coming and in fact were negotiating with Assad before it happened.  That's why within two days, a deal was set with Assad after Trump pulled out.  It was no secret.  However, the Kurds would not move until the Turks started shooting. So instead of backing off months ago, they continued to press for their homeland against Turkey who could not put up with their terrorist attacks any longer.  Our ally Turkey was complaining  to Trump they have to stop the Kurds killing Turks. So Turkey gave them a bloody nose.  That's how the world works.   The Kurds thought that Trump would change his mind or whatever.  Bad decision. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #141 on: October 19, 2019, 07:53:46 am »

You're still not getting it. There was no need for a 24-hour pull-out. Why not give it a week, or a month, if one 'needs' to rush things?
Besides, the US military commanders said that they were, perhaps, at 20% of the course of training the YPG in containing the ISIS threat.

The only reason is an incompetent fool at the helm who went off script in a phone call, again, and you're defending his incompetence. Which makes you ..., by association.
So who's fault will it be if shooting breaks out again after the current 5 day "shooting" pause to allow Kurds to move out of the buffer zone?  The Kurds aren't moving yet. Turkey says if they don't move,  they'll start shooting again to force them out.  They want to create a 30KM (18.6 mile) zone to prevent Kurds from attacking Turkey.  They will also use that area to move back 3.6 million Syrian war refugees that Turkey now hosts.  America's out of there. It's now up to these parties to work things out.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/10/erdogan-warns-kurds-syria-ceasefire-rocky-start-191018183950579.html
« Last Edit: October 19, 2019, 07:58:57 am by Alan Klein »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #142 on: October 19, 2019, 07:58:38 am »

You see, even if Trump gave them a five-day notice, the Kurds would have done nothing as they are doing now.  It required Turkish military operation to get the ball rolling.  Even with that, the Kurds are still stalling.  I don't know what's going to happen.  But this is all on the two parties.  Blaming Trump after 100 years of animosity between these two peoples is just nonsense.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #143 on: October 19, 2019, 09:17:04 am »

You see, even if Trump gave them a five-day notice, the Kurds would have done nothing as they are doing now.  It required Turkish military operation to get the ball rolling.  Even with that, the Kurds are still stalling.  I don't know what's going to happen.  But this is all on the two parties.  Blaming Trump after 100 years of animosity between these two peoples is just nonsense.

Who is blaming Trump for that animosity? Did anyone even mention such a thing? Where do you get this stuff. Is there some web site where you go look up all this tortuous logic to explain Trump's bizarre behaviour?

Also, I see you managed to bury in a post the assertion that Trump is a billionaire as if it were fact.

C'mon, you call tell us, we're all friends here, who's paying you to peddle this nonsense? :)

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Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #144 on: October 19, 2019, 12:07:30 pm »

Who is blaming Trump for that animosity? Did anyone even mention such a thing? Where do you get this stuff. Is there some web site where you go look up all this tortuous logic to explain Trump's bizarre behaviour?

Also, I see you managed to bury in a post the assertion that Trump is a billionaire as if it were fact.

C'mon, you call tell us, we're all friends here, who's paying you to peddle this nonsense? :)


Robert, I was responding to Bart's claim that if Trump had given them more time to evacuate and settle things before pulling American troops out, the Kurds (and Turkish soldiers as well) would not have been killed.  There would have been no fighting. My claim is that it would not have mattered.  The Kurds would not have moved until the Turks started military action.  Most people don't change their ways until they get hit over the head. 

So now there's a "pause" in fighting.  The Kurds and the Turks have 5 days to settle things before the killing starts again.   The clock is ticking. Meanwhile, it's been a day or two and both sides have claimed the other side is violating the "pause". 

Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #145 on: October 19, 2019, 09:49:21 pm »

Robert, I was responding to Bart's claim that if Trump had given them more time to evacuate and settle things before pulling American troops out, the Kurds (and Turkish soldiers as well) would not have been killed.  There would have been no fighting. My claim is that it would not have mattered.  The Kurds would not have moved until the Turks started military action.  Most people don't change their ways until they get hit over the head. 

So now there's a "pause" in fighting.  The Kurds and the Turks have 5 days to settle things before the killing starts again.   The clock is ticking. Meanwhile, it's been a day or two and both sides have claimed the other side is violating the "pause". 

The Kurdish general says they won't leave the buffer zone.  The 5-day "pause" clock is still ticking.  The ball is in their court.  America isn't going to nation build and fight for a homeland for them.  If shooting resumes, they'll have to fight for it themselves.  I'd like to see them get one, but they'll have to do it without America. 
https://www.npr.org/2019/10/19/771546293/kurdish-general-slams-u-s-syria-policy-gen-petraeus-calls-withdrawal-a-betrayal

LesPalenik

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #146 on: October 19, 2019, 11:37:08 pm »

The Kurdish general says they won't leave the buffer zone.  The 5-day "pause" clock is still ticking.  The ball is in their court.  America isn't going to nation build and fight for a homeland for them.  If shooting resumes, they'll have to fight for it themselves.  I'd like to see them get one, but they'll have to do it without America. 
https://www.npr.org/2019/10/19/771546293/kurdish-general-slams-u-s-syria-policy-gen-petraeus-calls-withdrawal-a-betrayal

If anything, the quoted article says how big a mistake was for the Americans Trump to withdraw their 1,500 soldiers. And the caption under the picture states that it was the Turkish forces who did the shelling during the "ceasefire". By the way, AFAIK, the ceasefire was negotiated without the Kurds, and Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said that there is no ceasefire.

What did the Kurds do to you, Alan?
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Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #147 on: October 20, 2019, 12:44:12 am »

If anything, the quoted article says how big a mistake was for the Americans Trump to withdraw their 1,500 soldiers. And the caption under the picture states that it was the Turkish forces who did the shelling during the "ceasefire". By the way, AFAIK, the ceasefire was negotiated without the Kurds, and Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said that there is no ceasefire.

What did the Kurds do to you, Alan?
Nothing.  In fact my initial reaction was the same as yours.  They're going to get hurt.  Wouldn't it be great if they got their homeland.  But then I ignored the usual anti-Trump headlines and gave it some thought.  And reassessed my opinion about it.  We can't stay in Syria for ever protecting Kurds.  We have spent 18 years in Afghanistan preventing the Taliban from taking over. again.  Frankly we're losing that I believe.  But we're pulling out of there anyway if you haven;t yet heard.  That's Trump's commitment as well. The place will collapse again into Taliban rule and people will blame us for that too.  We're tired.  We're broke.  We've shed too much blood - ours and others.  Enough already.  Let others figure out their problems.  Just don't come back over here.  Then we'll have to go back over there. 

LesPalenik

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #148 on: October 20, 2019, 04:29:05 am »

Nothing.  In fact my initial reaction was the same as yours.  They're going to get hurt.  Wouldn't it be great if they got their homeland.  But then I ignored the usual anti-Trump headlines and gave it some thought.  And reassessed my opinion about it.  We can't stay in Syria for ever protecting Kurds.  We have spent 18 years in Afghanistan preventing the Taliban from taking over. again.  Frankly we're losing that I believe.  But we're pulling out of there anyway if you haven;t yet heard.  That's Trump's commitment as well. The place will collapse again into Taliban rule and people will blame us for that too.  We're tired.  We're broke.  We've shed too much blood - ours and others.  Enough already.  Let others figure out their problems.  Just don't come back over here.  Then we'll have to go back over there.

Pulling out of Syria and moving the troops to Iraq. Announcing a fake ceasefire by Turkey and lifting the US economic sanctions against Turkey. Exactly, what Erdogan ordered. Art Of The Deal.

Quote
All of the roughly 1,000 U.S. troops ordered to leave northeastern Syria will move to western Iraq and will conduct U.S. operations against the Islamic State extremist group from there, Defense Secretary Mark Esper said.
The Trump administration announced a full withdrawal of troops from northeastern Syria days after the Oct. 9 start of an incursion by Turkey along its southern border with Syria. Critics have said that Turkey launched its mission because officials believed President Trump greenlighted the move during an Oct. 6 phone call with his Turkish counterpart, Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

Following a day of negotiations, Vice President Mike Pence said Turkey agreed to a five-day pause in Syria to allow Kurdish forces to withdraw, and in return the U.S. would pull back on economic sanctions against Turkey.

Mr. Trump’s decision to move all U.S. troops out of Syria has met with bipartisan disapproval in Congress, where lawmakers charge that the Trump administration abandoned Kurdish fighters who were key to a series of battles that led to the collapse of the self-proclaimed Islamic State caliphate.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-troops-leaving-syria-will-be-assigned-to-iraq-defense-chief-says-11571542784
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Rob C

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #149 on: October 20, 2019, 05:33:14 am »

All I can say is thank God and LuLa for that ignore button!

I've only employed it once, but it has saved my sanity regarding this site.

It's a wonderful asset: don't ignore it (n.p.i.), guys! Unless, of course, you actually enjoy banging your heads against rubber walls.

;-)

Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #150 on: October 20, 2019, 06:26:36 am »

Yes.  Remain ignorant. Hit the ignore button and join the American left who believe that people with opposing views have no right to speak or be heard.   

Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #151 on: October 20, 2019, 07:00:24 am »

Pulling out of Syria and moving the troops to Iraq. Announcing a fake ceasefire by Turkey and lifting the US economic sanctions against Turkey. Exactly, what Erdogan ordered. Art Of The Deal.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-troops-leaving-syria-will-be-assigned-to-iraq-defense-chief-says-11571542784

Les, The Kurds can end the fighting by withdrawing 20 miles away from the Turkish border.  They have a couple of days left before the "pause" ends.  Americans are out of there.  They have to make their own bed. 

Meanwhile, Russians have jumped into the fore.  If Russians want to take over as peacekeepers, let them.  They're putting their troops in-between Kurds and Turks and helping the Syrians take back their land that the Kurds over-ran and illegally occupied in the confusion of its civil war.  A quarter of Syria land is in Kurdish control.  Is that right?  Millions of Syrian war refugees have fled to Turkey for protection.I'm sure you have similar compassion for Syrians.   I'm sure you don't support Kurds taking land that doesn't belong to them any more than you supported Saddam Hussein when Iraq grabbed and occupied Kuwait.  Frankly, the whole place over there is a mess.    Everyone's fighting everyone else.  We went there to kill ISIS not to make peace for all these quarrelling tribes. Let someone else try their hand at it.
"US is out of the Picture in Syria Turkey Crisis. Putin Now Owns the Mess"[size=78%]https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/20/middleeast/putin-now-owns-this-mess-intl/index.html[/size]

Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #152 on: October 20, 2019, 07:06:22 am »

The next step of ethnic cleaning, with a seal of approval from the USA. Congratulations ...

U.S., Turkey agree Ankara to primarily control Syria 'safe zone'
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-security-turkey-ceasefire-safez/u-s-turkey-agree-ankara-to-primarily-control-syria-safe-zone-idUSKBN1WW2OB

We tried to make the world Safe for Democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan.  Enough.  Let others pick up the banner.  Maybe the Netherlands should send troops between the warring parties. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #153 on: October 20, 2019, 07:51:12 am »

Nonsense. The Kurds have lived in that region for ages (approx. since the 12th century).

Yes. But now they want to turn Syrian territory into their own nation.  They also occupy parts of Iraq.  But they are citizens of that country, not a separate nation.  In Turkey, terrorist Kurds have been battling Turks.  America, and Europe, have listed the Kurdish YPG arm a terrorist organization.  So we'd be supporting terrorists against Turkey our NATO ally. 

Frankly, I think they should have a nation.  But it isn't up to America to decide and force our will on others.  You'd be the first person to complain, "There goes America again. Throwing its weight around."  You'd be right.  The Kurds are going to have to work this out with Syria and Turkey just like they worked out an arrangement with Iraq.

Additionally, Kurds have used the Syrian civil war to expand their territory.  That's in the last two years or so, not since the 12th century.  The civil war has created a huge refugee problem.  Millions of Syrians who lived along the Turkish border have fled into Turkey for protection, areas now occupied by Kurds.  What happens to the Syrians if the Kurds keep the territory for themselves,which is their plan?  Frankly, it's a mess. All these quarrelling tribes.  Let's see how the Russians make out.  Putin's a smart guy.  We'll see just how smart he is. 

Rob C

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #154 on: October 20, 2019, 07:55:31 am »

Nonsense. The Kurds have lived in that region for ages (approx. since the 12th century).


Bart, for your sanity, the button!

:-)

Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #155 on: October 20, 2019, 07:57:42 am »

Yes Bart.   Press the button.  Join Rob in ignorance. 

LesPalenik

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #156 on: October 20, 2019, 08:18:08 am »

Yes. But now they want to turn Syrian territory into their own nation.  They also occupy parts of Iraq.  But they are citizens of that country, not a separate nation.  In Turkey, terrorist Kurds have been battling Turks.  America, and Europe, have listed the Kurdish YPG arm a terrorist organization.  So we'd be supporting terrorists against Turkey our NATO ally. 

The Turks have been invading many European countries and even India for centuries.

Quote
Additionally, Kurds have used the Syrian civil war to expand their territory.  That's in the last two years or so, not since the 12th century.  The civil war has created a huge refugee problem.  Millions of Syrians who lived along the Turkish border have fled into Turkey for protection, areas now occupied by Kurds.  What happens to the Syrians if the Kurds keep the territory for themselves,which is their plan?  Frankly, it's a mess. All these quarrelling tribes.  Let's see how the Russians make out.  Putin's a smart guy.  We'll see just how smart he is.

In the last 50 years, dozens of new nations were formed in Africa, Asia and even in Europe (see the link to a table below). Starting with Angola and ending with Zambia.
How do you justify creating a country for Kosovo with Serbian population since the Byzantine period (10th century) and given by US and EU in 2008 to Albanians, and not one for Kurds? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_date_of_formation
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Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #157 on: October 20, 2019, 08:49:42 am »

The Turks have been invading many European countries and even India for centuries.

In the last 50 years, dozens of new nations were formed in Africa, Asia and even in Europe (see the link to a table below). Starting with Angola and ending with Zambia.
How do you justify creating a country for Kosovo with Serbian population since the Byzantine period (10th century) and given by US and EU in 2008 to Albanians, and not one for Kurds? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_date_of_formation
Man has been taking his neighbor's property ever since he realized he could.  I'm not sure what that has to do with this situation.

Regarding Kosovo and Serbia, I think Slobodan would have a thing or two to say about that.  I'll leave it to him if he wants to comment.  In any case, just because America stuck it's nose in one place, doesn;t mean should stick it everywhere.  Isn't that the main complaint of people around the world about us?  Remember, when we take sides, one side isn't happy about it.  We can't please everyone and often wind up pleasing no one.    Right now, most Americans just want to be left alone in peace.  Is that so hard to understand?  It's the anti-Trumpers, neocons, Democrats, and Republican insiders pushing us into war.  Trump frankly is a peacenik with a loud bark. He wants to get America out of the empire business, at least in areas that are unimportant to us strategically.  That's why he was elected. 

Peter McLennan

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #158 on: October 20, 2019, 03:09:04 pm »

That's why he was elected.

Nope.  Sorry, that's not why he was elected.

He was elected because he's an excellent huckster.
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faberryman

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #159 on: October 20, 2019, 03:15:55 pm »

Turns out Trump didn't bring the American troops in Syria home. He has redeployed them to Iraq and Afghanistan.
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