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Author Topic: Incursions into Syria  (Read 13947 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #120 on: October 17, 2019, 08:19:04 pm »

Who said anything about taking territory away from Turkey, Iraq and Syria to give the Kurds a homeland? It is one of your red herrings.
I'm not saying it.  Those are the facts.  The Kurds have already taken a quarter of Syrian territory under our protection while we were fighting ISIS.  That's defacto Kurdish homeland.  If we weren't helping them, why are they now losing some of their homeland when we left? That's "nation building" that Democrats and others have said we should stop. 

jeremyrh

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #121 on: October 18, 2019, 03:22:32 am »

Trump totally owned by Mattis:

“I earned my spurs on the battlefield … and Donald Trump earned his spurs in a letter from a doctor,” Mattis said.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #122 on: October 18, 2019, 05:04:33 am »

From German Spiegel (October 18, 2019) - The US gives Erdogan what he wanted

Quote
"The US and Turkey today agreed on a ceasefire in Syria," said US Vice President Mike Pence. "It is not a ceasefire" countered Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu.

Such quibbling is not uncommon in diplomatic crisis talks. In this case, behind the contradictory explanations is more than just "semantics," as a Pence adviser stated - but a bitter truth. This truth is that Turkey is achieving its stated goal of expelling the Kurds from northern Syria - and Damascus, Moscow and Tehran are also laughing.

On the other hand, US President Donald Trump can brag about having extinguished a fire he himself set. In the long run, however, the cost to Washington is enormous.
The US has lost important ground in Syria - as well as international status and influence: which partner still trusts them?

https://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/gefechtspause-in-nordsyrien-donald-trump-gibt-recep-tayyip-erdogan-was-er-will-a-1292120.html

And from Reuters:

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CEYLANPINAR, Turkey (Reuters) - Shelling and gunfire resounded around the northeast Syrian town of Ras al Ain on Friday, a day after Turkey agreed with the United States to pause its offensive in Syria for five days to let Kurdish forces withdraw.

The truce was announced some 13 hours earlier by U.S. Vice President Mike Pence after talks in Ankara with Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan. Turkey agreed to the five-day pause to let the Kurdish-led SDF militia withdraw from a “safe zone” Ankara had sought to capture. The deal was praised by U.S. President Donald Trump, who said it would save “millions of lives,” while Turkey cast it as a complete victory.

A Turkish official told Reuters that Ankara got “exactly what we wanted” from the talks with the United States. Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu described the deal as a pause, solely to allow the Kurdish fighters to withdraw. They would be forced to give up their heavy weapons and their positions would be destroyed, he said.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-security-turkey-usa/shelling-heard-around-syrian-town-after-turkish-u-s-ceasefire-deal-idUSKBN1WX0GT
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #123 on: October 18, 2019, 07:41:09 am »

A "realpolitic" analysis that Alan might like that argues that Trump may be right about some things in this area, https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/10/18/trump-syria-turkey-kurds-news-analysis-229858. The writers don't make the case that he consciously analyzed the situation the way they do, as I read it. They do make one point that I believe that Alan also made, which is that maybe it's ok to let Russia get mixed up in that quagmire, it will be its problem, and anyway Syria is not of strategic importance to the US (i.e., that have no oil).
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Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #124 on: October 18, 2019, 11:45:41 am »

A "realpolitic" analysis that Alan might like that argues that Trump may be right about some things in this area, https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/10/18/trump-syria-turkey-kurds-news-analysis-229858. The writers don't make the case that he consciously analyzed the situation the way they do, as I read it. They do make one point that I believe that Alan also made, which is that maybe it's ok to let Russia get mixed up in that quagmire, it will be its problem, and anyway Syria is not of strategic importance to the US (i.e., that have no oil).
The author of the article checked with me before he wrote it. 😏  one thing though. He didn't have to knock Trump. If he agreed with how it's coming out, then Trump did the right thing. Accusing him of not knowing what he's doing it's just a cheap shot to not give him the credit he deserves. That's just typical anti-trump stuff. It didn't belong in the article.

faberryman

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #125 on: October 18, 2019, 12:04:21 pm »

That's just typical anti-trump stuff. It didn't belong in the article.
Because only pro-Trump stuff belongs in articles?
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Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #126 on: October 18, 2019, 12:27:08 pm »

Because only pro-Trump stuff belongs in articles?
the author was discussing a policy in the Middle East. Includng an anti or pro-Trump polemical rhetoric, he undermined his point and showed his prejudice against the president. Unnecessary for this opinion.

jeremyrh

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #127 on: October 18, 2019, 03:11:10 pm »

The author of the article checked with me before he wrote it. 😏  one thing though. He didn't have to knock Trump. If he agreed with how it's coming out, then Trump did the right thing. Accusing him of not knowing what he's doing it's just a cheap shot to not give him the credit he deserves. That's just typical anti-trump stuff. It didn't belong in the article.

Mmm nope. There's such a thing as doing the right thing for the wrong reason.  In this case, however, Trump did the wrong thing for the wrong reason.  Syria is of strategic importance because a) it has a land border with Israel and b) it will be an ally of Iran and Russia in proximity to a large oil supply. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #128 on: October 18, 2019, 03:32:16 pm »

Mmm nope. There's such a thing as doing the right thing for the wrong reason.  In this case, however, Trump did the wrong thing for the wrong reason.  Syria is of strategic importance because a) it has a land border with Israel and b) it will be an ally of Iran and Russia in proximity to a large oil supply. 
The writer of the article doesn't agree with you.  Neither do I.  Neither does Trump. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #129 on: October 18, 2019, 03:39:07 pm »

Ask the 160,000 diplaced people and the families of the 100's of dead Kurds if Trump did the right thing ...

There was no reason for such an overly rushed (24-hour) departure ..., other than pleasing Erdogan so that he would promise to buy some more "Patriot" systems.

This is yet another demonstration of impulsive, ill-considered action. He wouldn't hesitate to do the same with US soldiers or allied forces. The man is demonstrably unfit as commander in chief (amongst other things).

What does someone who inficts such unnecessary suffering on other people deserve, in your opinion?
The Kurds had no right to occupy Syrian territory.  They used the civil war there to steal property that didn't belong to them and make it their homeland.  Then, they used it as a staging area against the Turks, ours and your NATO ally.  If they killed Dutch citizens as a NATO ally, you would be upset if we protected them against you, and rightly so.  Try to get past your political hatred of Trump.  Make believe Obama was still president.  Then you'd be all in agreement with what the president did.  You'd be arguing the very points I'm  making.

faberryman

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #130 on: October 18, 2019, 03:59:55 pm »

The Kurds had no right to occupy Syrian territory. They used the civil war there to steal property that didn't belong to them and make it their homeland.  Then, they used it as a staging area against the Turks, ours and your NATO ally.
Kurds live in Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran (and lots of other places, including the United States). The Kurds lived in Turkey before it was Turkey, Syria before it was Syria, Iraq before it was Iraq, and Iran before it was Iran. They have a perfect right to live where they live.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 04:40:05 pm by faberryman »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #131 on: October 18, 2019, 04:55:14 pm »

Kurds live in Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran (and lots of other places, including the United States). The Kurds lived in Turkey before it was Turkey, Syria before it was Syria, Iraq before it was Iraq, and Iran before it was Iran. They have a perfect right to live where they live.

Kurds also live in America.  But they don't want to set up their own country here.   I'm sure Assad has no problem with the Kurds there if they continue to act like Syrian citizens.  Ditto in Turkey Iran and Iraq.  It doesn't suddenly become America's responsibility to go against those three nations to assist Kurds get their own country.   

jeremyrh

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #132 on: October 18, 2019, 05:09:23 pm »

Kurds also live in America.  But they don't want to set up their own country here.   I'm sure Assad has no problem with the Kurds there if they continue to act like Syrian citizens.  Ditto in Turkey Iran and Iraq.  It doesn't suddenly become America's responsibility to go against those three nations to assist Kurds get their own country.

You keep on saying this like that will make it true. Nobody expected the US to help the Kurds build a homeland - just to prevent thousands of innocent people being killed. If that's not responsibility, I don't know what is.
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Chris Kern

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #133 on: October 18, 2019, 05:29:37 pm »

Try to get past your political hatred of Trump.  Make believe Obama was still president.  Then you'd be all in agreement with what the president did.  You'd be arguing the very points I'm  making.

Ahhh, maybe you should explain that to the Senate majority leader:

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Withdrawing U.S. forces from Syria is a grave strategic mistake. It will leave the American people and homeland less safe, embolden our enemies, and weaken important alliances.  Sadly, the recently announced pullout risks repeating the Obama administration’s reckless withdrawal from Iraq, which facilitated the rise of the Islamic State in the first place.

— Mitch McConnell, Republican senator from Kentucky, OpEd article in the Washington Post, October 18, 2019

Also note Mitt Romney's statement:

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What we have done to the Kurds will stand as a blood stain in the annals of American history.  The decision to abandon the Kurds violates one of our most sacred principles—that the United States stands with our allies.

— Mitt Romney, Republican senator from Utah, Twitter, October 18, 2019

Hint #1: Romney is positioning himself to become the Republican candidate for president.
Hint #2: McConnell doesn't care who is the next president, as long as he (or she, although that's not likely) is a Republican.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 07:22:57 pm by Chris Kern »
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faberryman

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #134 on: October 18, 2019, 05:32:06 pm »

It doesn't suddenly become America's responsibility to go against those three nations to assist Kurds get their own country.
Nobody said it did, except you and your red herring.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #135 on: October 18, 2019, 08:23:04 pm »

Protecting the Kurds and staying in Syria is a political and military quagmire like Vietnam.  Trump got American troops the hell out of there before more got killed.  If he waited until afterwards, you guys would complain he waited too long.  Why didn't he get them out sooner.  You'll never be happy with what he does. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #136 on: October 18, 2019, 08:33:05 pm »

Ahhh, maybe you should explain that to the Senate majority leader:

Also note Mitt Romney's statement:

Hint #1: Romney is positioning himself to become the Republican candidate for president.
Hint #2: McConnell doesn't care who is the next president, as long as he (or she, although that's not likely) is a Republican.

ISIS is dead.  They aren't going to rehabilitate themselves.  The Russian, Syrians, Turks, and yes, even the Kurds will keep them down.  If a few remain, they're no threat to the US mainland.  You post only shows that politicians say political things.  Because the pullout has been getting negative press, the politicians take the side of what seems to be popular and are opposed too.  It takes guts to go against the tide.  Trump will be proven right,  We have no interests there.  The Kurds already made a deal with their landlords the Syrians.  The Turks will occupy a twenty mile buffer zone to keep Kurdish terrorists from invading Turkey.  The Russians are already playing policemen by helping the Turks patrol the buffer zone to keep the peace.  Soon, very soon, everyone will forget about the Kurds and move on and you'll find another thing about Trump to complain about.  After all, that's you job until the election.   

Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #137 on: October 18, 2019, 08:38:30 pm »

Complete nonsense. There was no justifiable reason for a 24-hour pull-out that caused an avoidable huge human suffering and a deathtoll of many hundreds, other than monetary and personal gain. Hitting another moral lowground. And supporting that says a lot about you.


You have no right to offer up Americans to be sacrificed in battle.  Your Dutch.  Mind your business.

Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #138 on: October 18, 2019, 09:13:41 pm »

Nonsense. It was made our business as much as yours.

Defending such an incompetent 'occupant of The Whitehouse' makes it your business by definition.
If it's your business send Dutch troops to help the Kurds.  We'll see how long that lasts when Dutch troops start returning in body bags. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #139 on: October 18, 2019, 09:55:17 pm »

You're still not getting it. There was no need for a 24-hour pull-out. Why not give it a week, or a month, if one 'needs' to rush things?
Besides, the US military commanders said that they were, perhaps, at 20% of the course of training the YPG in containing the ISIS threat.

The only reason is an incompetent fool at the helm who went off script in a phone call, again, and you're defending his incompetence. Which makes you ..., by association.
You're just another armchair general who isn't the one sacrificing your sons and daughters.
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