Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: Rob C on October 11, 2019, 08:00:11 am
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Five people stabbed today in a Manchester (England) shopping centre; terror squad in action.
Hunch? Excitement and rejuvenation within certain groups with an eye on the possible escape of thousands of IS "prisoners" currently guarded by the Kurds.
And there we are - actions have consequences.
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Careful, Bart, you'll break both legs jumping to conclusions like that.
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And all that human suffering just to distract from an impeachment procedure, and trying to win an election.
>> Careful, Bart, you'll break both legs jumping to conclusions like that.
If it wasn't for that reason, that it's just another stupid decision.
Or because of a sleepless, tweet-filled night.
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Why don't your countries send a brigade or two and defend the Kurds for the next thirty or so years? Why does it have to be Americans who have to always bleed and die? Let's see how you feel when your sons are sent home in body bags from interminable wars in the Middle East. These people seem to get along before we entered the fray against ISIS. Somehow they'll figure it all out now that we're leaving. It's not our problem.
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Seems Trump is sending 2000 troops to Saudi Arabia because he no longer wishes to have troops in the Middle East. So much for bringing the boys home and letting the Middle East countries figure it out among themselves. That lasted all of three days. Foreign policy by whim.
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Seems Trump is sending 2000 troops to Saudi Arabia because he no longer wishes to have troops in the Middle East. So much for bringing the boys home and letting the Middle East countries figure it out among themselves.
If they start dying there, he should get them the hell out of there.
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Why don't your countries send a brigade or two and defend the Kurds for the next thirty or so years? Why does it have to be Americans who have to always bleed and die? Let's see how you feel when your sons are sent home in body bags from interminable wars in the Middle East. These people seem to get along before we entered the fray against ISIS. Somehow they'll figure it all out now that we're leaving. It's not our problem.
One has to worry that because of the hasty decision to leave Syria and a large number of released/escaped ISIS fighters due to Turkish attack, many more lives (American and others) could be lost. But a long term strategic thinking was never one of the mental capabilities of the current commander of chief.
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One has to worry that because of the hasty decision to leave Syria and a large number of released/escaped ISIS fighters due to Turkish attack, many more lives (American and others) could be lost. But a long term strategic thinking was never one of the mental capabilities of the current commander of chief.
Actually, Les, Trump has consistently over the decades stated America has been involved in too many wars and foreign adventures we have no business being in. The anti-Trump liberal Democrat media Americans and others get their news from have presented him as being a warmonger because it fits their arguments to diminish him and make his policies look risky. He would get us into wars, they say. They have been mistaken and biased in their presentations. He's pulling us out of Syria and trying real hard to not get us involved in other military adventures. He's trying to get us out of 18 years of fighting in Afghanistan. He campaigned on that.
Of course, as Commander-in-Chief and president, he understands we have to maintain a strong military posture. He's done so by building up our military which had been diminished by the last administration. Yet, he's very cautious where he puts our troops. The Middle East is a swamp, a quicksand where you sink into your own blood. Let the people living there settle their own disputes. As long as they keep it over there, we have little interest in getting involved.
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The Kurdish betrayal in October 2019 is not unlike the Munich Agreement in September 1938. Eighty years ago, Britain, Italy and France naively and cowardly assumed that sacrificing Czechoslovakia and appeasing Hitler would prevent the war. Neville Chamberlain declared ‘Peace for our time’ after Germany, Britain, France and Italy reached a settlement allowing Nazi Germany to annex parts of Czechoslovakia.
The Czechoslovak government hoped that Britain and France would come to its assistance in the event of an invasion, but British Prime Minister Chamberlain was intent on averting war. Between 15 and 30 September he made three trips to Germany to see Hitler. The final one in Munich resulted in large swathes of Czechoslovakia coming under Nazi rule. Britain and France would not support any Czech resistance.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/from-the-archive-blog/2018/sep/21/munich-chamberlain-hitler-appeasement-1938
One has to wonder whether Erdogan simply told Trump - "We are going in, you'd better get your boys out" or whether Trump got his marching orders directly from Kremlin. Either way, enabling the Turkish invasion can't be blamed solely at USA, the EU is also complicit in this abhorrent massacre. The decision to throw the Kurds under the bus was not a good one, and the prognosis can't be good for Kurdistan, Turkey and the rest of the world.
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Actually, Les, Trump has consistently over the decades stated America has been involved in too many wars and foreign adventures we have no business being in. The anti-Trump liberal Democrat media Americans and others get their news from have presented him as being a warmonger because it fits their arguments to diminish him and make his policies look risky. He would get us into wars, they say. They have been mistaken and biased in their presentations. He's pulling us out of Syria and trying real hard to not get us involved in other military adventures. He's trying to get us out of 18 years of fighting in Afghanistan. He campaigned on that.
Of course, as Commander-in-Chief and president, he understands we have to maintain a strong military posture. He's done so by building up our military which had been diminished by the last administration. Yet, he's very cautious where he puts our troops. The Middle East is a swamp, a quicksand where you sink into your own blood. Let the people living there settle their own disputes. As long as they keep it over there, we have little interest in getting involved.
Little interest in getting involved????
He just sends troops and before an incredible amount of weapons to Saudi Arabia; The destructive war in Jemen is based on these weapons.
He supports Israel whatever they do.
He sells weapons to whoever pays. the Kurds use American weapons against Turkish American weapons.
All this to make America great again ! ...without getting involved...??
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The Kurdish betrayal in October 2019 is not unlike the Munich Agreement in September 1938. Eighty years ago, Britain, Italy and France naively and cowardly assumed that sacrificing Czechoslovakia and appeasing Hitler would prevent the war. Neville Chamberlain declared ‘Peace for our time’ after Germany, Britain, France and Italy reached a settlement allowing Nazi Germany to annex parts of Czechoslovakia.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/from-the-archive-blog/2018/sep/21/munich-chamberlain-hitler-appeasement-1938 (https://www.theguardian.com/world/from-the-archive-blog/2018/sep/21/munich-chamberlain-hitler-appeasement-1938)
One has to wonder whether Erdogan simply told Trump - "We are going in, you'd better get your boys out" or whether Trump got his marching orders directly from Kremlin. Either way, enabling the Turkish invasion can't be blamed solely at USA, the EU is also complicit in this abhorrent massacre. The decision to throw the Kurds under the bus was not a good one, and the prognosis can't be good for Kurdistan, Turkey and the rest of the world.
Les, The comparison is false. First, the Kurds don't even have a country so they're not Czechoslovakia. Taking advantage of the Syrian war, the Kurds had expanded their territory and have made incursions into Turkey, The Turks are our formal ally in NATO as you in Canada are. ISIS and Iran aren't Germany. Czechoslovakia and Germany were in the heart of Europe. These were next door neighbors to Britain and France and presented an immediate existential threat to the rest of Europe. Syria, the Kurds, Turkey, and the rest of these countries are 6000 miles away from America and half that distance from Europe, although Europe is more affected by the Middle East then we are. Yet, I don't see Western Europe sending their armies over there to help the Kurds. As usual, let those dumb Americans do the fighting. The rest of the world will go about their regular business making money and sipping tea.
Interestingly, I think many Americans are at the same point we were at right before WWII. Because of WWI, America was tired of war and didn't want to get involved in that Second War over there. It took Pearl Harbor and Germany's declaration of war against the US. Only then did America declare war on Germany and get us involved officially in the war in Europe. Well, Americans have had it after all the waring in the Middle East since 9-11. We tired. We're broke. We don't want to be there. Let someone else pick up the banner. Trump is just officiating what Americans really want. We want to go home. The world will have to go on there without us.
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Little interest in getting involved? ???
He just sends troops and before an incredible amount of weapons to Saudi Arabia; The destructive war in Jemen is based on these weapons.
He supports Israel whatever they do.
He sells weapons to whoever pays. the Kurds use American weapons against Turkish American weapons.
All this to make America great again ! ...without getting involved...??
We gave weapons to the Kurds to kill ISIS our common enemy. We didn't give them those weapons to fight our ally and your ally in NATO Turkey. Would you want us to abandon the Netherlands if Russia decides it's hungry for territory? The Kurds will have to deal with the Turks on their own if they want to fight them for a country. It's interesting that the left, liberals and Democrats say we shouldn't be in the costly nation-making business. Well, at least until Trump is president. Then, they're all for getting us killed in the Middle East. Foreigners tell Americans we get involved too much making more of a mess of things. We should mind our business. Now suddenly with Trump, you reverse your advice and tell us yeah start dropping more bombs. It's hypocrisy and all about hating Trump. It's you guys who have no strategic plans. It's all about politics.
Other weapons we give to allies to help them defend themselves. But they'll have to do the fighting. It's their countries.
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We tired. We're broke. We don't want to be there. Let someone else pick up the banner. Trump is just officiating what Americans really want. We want to go home. The world will have to go on there without us.
So explain sending 2000 troops to Saudi Arabia three days after abandoning the Kurds.
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So explain sending 2000 troops to Saudi Arabia three days after abandoning the Kurds.
We shouldn't be there. But I understand it's defensive in nature. They won't be fighting directly just providing support. However, if they start dying, Trump should get them the hell out of there. In any case, if you don't like the way America fights it's wars, send your children and army over there and do the fighting the way you want. But don't tell Americans they have to die for your causes.
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We shouldn't be there. But I understand it's defensive in nature. They won't be fighting directly just providing support. However, if they start dying, Trump should get them the hell out of there. In any case, if you don't like the way America fights it's wars, send your children and army over there and do the fighting the way you want. But don't tell Americans they have to die for your causes.
i remind you again I am a US citizen. The assumptions you make are really quite telling.
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i remind you again I am a US citizen. The assumptions you make are really quite telling.
Then you ought to be sensitive to the fact we've been dying over there. I'm sure you are. So let's not get involved in another war supporting freedom and democracy. Didn't we learn a lesson in Iraq and Vietnam? Also, it would be very helpful to include your nationality in your profile. Also, how about including your name while you're at it. :)
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We shouldn't be there. But I understand it's defensive in nature. They won't be fighting directly just providing support. However, if they start dying, Trump should get them the hell out of there. In any case, if you don't like the way America fights it's wars, send your children and army over there and do the fighting the way you want. But don't tell Americans they have to die for your causes.
There is one primary reason we have and the kingdom allows, US military presence on Saudi soil - make Iran hesitate endangering the oil and chemicals supply to the West and others through the Strait of Hormuz.
If there were no vital resources there, we would not be in the region.
Picot-Sykes stirred things up a hundred years ago. Oil in the area raised the stakes. Add in the historical tensions between the Arabs and the Persians, the creation of Israel, and the Kurd’s fight for an independent state and you are where we are today.
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There is one primary reason we have and the kingdom allows, US military presence on Saudi soil - make Iran hesitate endangering the oil and chemicals supply to the West and others through the Strait of Hormuz.
If there were no vital resources there, we would not be in the region.
Picot-Sykes stirred things up a hundred years ago. Oil in the area raised the stakes. Add in the historical tensions between the Arabs and the Persians, the creation of Israel, and the Kurd’s fight for an independent state and you are where we are today.
Why aren't European troops there in Saudi Arabia? They're more dependent on M.E. oil they we are since we've gained oil independence, no thanks to Obama. Frankly, the ME is a mess. How do you pick sides with this cast of characters? One's worse than the other. They all hate each other. They'll be fighting for the next two centuries. We've spent and bled enough. Let them figure it all out among themselves. IBM's Big Blue chess computer couldn't figure out the next move we should make. Why bother?
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Remember the ‘oil shocks’ of the ‘70s when OPEC got their act together ?
A large part of the world’s economy depends on the smooth flow of oil out of the Middle East.
That’s why.
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Indeed, electing an unfit person into power does have consequences. Being complicit, comes to mind. Potentially 300,000 displaced people, potential escape of 10s of thousands ISIS detainees, revitalizing of terrorism (ISIL/ISIS was not defeated, they were just driven out of their self-proclaimed caliphate), ...
And all that human suffering just to distract from an impeachment procedure, and trying to win an election.
I’m staying away from populist guff (other than about photography 🙄) but I have some sour taste in my mouth after reading this.
It would be good if not all discussions turn out in a Trump bashing exercise.
When are You Americans start to understand that the equator doesn’t run trough your crack?
Mind your own inland business and leave the world dealing with themselves.
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I’m staying away from populist guff (other than about photography 🙄) but I have some sour taste in my mouth after reading this.
It would be good if not all discussions turn out in a Trump bashing exercise.
When are You Americans start to understand that the equator doesn’t run trough your crack?
Mind your own inland business and leave the world dealing with themselves.
Remember where WW2 would have taken Europe without American intervention?
That settled, the further battle would have been between a Nazi Europe and the USSR.
Be grateful, not arrogant.
Rob
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Remember where WW2 would have taken Europe without American intervention?
That settled, the further battle would have been between a Nazi Europe and the USSR.
Be grateful, not arrogant.
Rob
Gratefulness is not an eternal achievement, Rob.
About WW2, you know the ‘naughty document’ story, do you?
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BTW it is not serious to misuse a sociopolitical situation of past century in the world complexity of today.
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The whole Middle East problem is easily explained in David Fromkin's wonderful book, "A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East" that covers the immediate aftermath of WWI and how it all went wrong in creating the nation states of the region.
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The whole Middle East problem is easily explained in David Fromkin's wonderful book, "A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East" that covers the immediate aftermath of WWI and how it all went wrong in creating the nation states of the region.
I think I read that book when I saw Lawrence of Arabia. 8) Well, I think we know that the problems were the breakup of European colonialism there and the collapse of the Ottoman empire. Making nation-states out of bunch of tribes is still causing trouble. You've got Erdogan in Turkey who's a dictator, the tribes in Afghanistan who've been killing each other for years, Syria has Assad another murderer and about forty different groups from nationalists, Kurds looking for a homeland, terrorists, and infiltrators who all hate each other, Iraq with the Kurds, Sunnis and Shias who also have hated each other since Muhammad walked the sands, Israel with their nukes and the Palestinians also looking for a homeland, the religious inspired mullahs in Iran, the Saudi King or is he still a prince who strangles and dismembers his enemies. The Arabs hate the Persians who hate the Arabs and everyone hates the Jews. What a mess and cast of characters.
But does America have to be the one to resolve it? Going into Iraq to give them democracy or for whatever reason created a worse mess. And while the SHias finally got their just desserts, they're killing each other in Baghdad all over again. Why? Because the government is corrupt. Well, who would have thought that would happen? And while I think we had to go after al Qaeda after they attacked us on 9-11, it looks like after 18 years we're going to leave Afghanistan and the Taliban will take over again. Well, as long as they don;t come back over here, it's not our business. In fact, let the entire ME sort things out themselves.
Worth mentioning especially here that Lawrence of Arabia was one of the most beautifully photographed movies of all time. David Lean did a superb job. I watched it again recently on TCM (Turner Classic Movies). But Comcast my cable and internet supplier just took TCM away from my cable plan and now want extra money for that channel. But that's another thread. >:(
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Saw it on the extra wide screen in theater when they re-released the directors cut a few years back. Ok, more than a few years...
Seeing it a home does not compare..at all. WOW.
Heavily romanticized story. More fiction than fact. Shot in Morocco btw. But well done shooting.
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characters.
Worth mentioning especially here that Lawrence of Arabia was one of the most beautifully photographed movies of all time. David Lean did a superb job.
I think you’ll find that it was a man named Freddie Young who photographed Lawrence of Arabia.
He also photographed Ryan’s Daughter and Doctor Zhivago, winning Oscars for all three.
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Here's the whole take on the movie, locations photography etc. If you read the article, you see why nothing will ever be settled in the ME. From the section on filming:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_of_Arabia_(film)#Filming
"...The desert scenes were shot in Jordan and Morocco, as well as Almería and Doñana in Spain. It was originally to be filmed entirely in Jordan; the government of King Hussein was extremely helpful in providing logistical assistance, location scouting, transportation, and extras. Hussein himself visited the set several times during production and maintained cordial relationships with cast and crew. The only tension occurred when Jordanian officials learned that English actor Henry Oscar did not speak Arabic but would be filmed reciting the Qur'an. Permission was granted only on condition that an imam be present to ensure that there were no misquotations..."
"...Jordan banned the film for what was felt to be a disrespectful portrayal of Arab culture.[11] Egypt, Omar Sharif's home country, was the only Arab nation to give the film a wide release, where it became a success through the endorsement of President Gamal Abdel Nasser, who appreciated the film's depiction of Arab nationalism..."
Also in the link is the explanation of the Director's Cut edition.
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I think you’ll find that it was a man named Freddie Young who photographed Lawrence of Arabia.
He also photographed Ryan’s Daughter and Doctor Zhivago, winning Oscars for all three.
I never saw Ryan's Daughter, but Dr. Zhivago numerous times, another great movie as was the Bridge over the River Kwai. I like simple good guy and bad guy movies. Easy to follow and you know who to hate. And love.
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I never saw Ryan's Daughter,
Required viewing for photographers. :)
another great movie as was the Bridge over the River Kwai.
To further muddy the foreign movie waters: photographed largely in Sri Lanka.
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Erdogan is elected, just as the US president.
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I never saw Ryan's Daughter, but Dr. Zhivago numerous times, another great movie as was the Bridge over the River Kwai. I like simple good guy and bad guy movies. Easy to follow and you know who to hate. And love.
FYI, that is one of the most historically inaccurate moving ever made.
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Looks like the Kurds made a deal with Assad. So now we have the Kurds who have grabbed Syrian territory being attacked by Turkey and now asking for protection by the Syrians. What are the Russians going to do? Help defend Syria against the Turks? Putin will wish he didn't get involved. The Turks will cancel their order for the Russian S400 missiles. Turkey has to kill any ISIS who might be on the run. And other independent groups in Syria who've been fighting will probably keep their heads down until the dust settles. I figure there will soon be another status quo arrangement and the fighting will lull. Erdogan will keep pushing for his 20 mile buffer zone to keep the Kurd terrorists out. Kurds will move south into their other territory ceding the buffer zone to Turkey. Assad wasn't strong enough to take it back from the Kurds. He won't be strong enough to take it back from Turkey and will agree to the buffer zone as a good idea after all. Americans will come home riding in American passenger planes rather than any more body bags.
https://www.apnews.com/7e90fd08a89e49d9bcae6a85a131a64a (https://www.apnews.com/7e90fd08a89e49d9bcae6a85a131a64a)
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Looks like the Kurds made a deal with Assad. So now we have the Kurds who have grabbed Syrian territory being attacked by Turkey and now asking for protection by the Syrians. What are the Russians going to do? Help defend Syria against the Turks? Putin will wish he didn't get involved.
Putin is rubbing his hands - Christmas came early. Again. Trump's foreign policy is the gift that keeps on giving.
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So was Putin, and his opponents were in jail (or worse).
Reminds me of a dark joke:
Prisoner in Turkish jail: Have you got this book?
Prison librarian: No, but we've got the author.
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Putin is rubbing his hands - Christmas came early. Again. Trump's foreign policy is the gift that keeps on giving.
We spent trillions and lost thousands since we went into the Middle East. The Russians are welcome to it. Merry Christmas.
PS: They can have Afghanistan back again too.
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So was Putin, and his opponents were in jail (or worse).
Go to Istanbul and say something nasty about Erdogan. It will not be the police who will lynch you.
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Russia and Iran on either side of Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states - what could possibly go wrong? The Russians have been dreaming of a warm water port since the 16th century and now the dream is coming true!
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Russia and Iran on either side of Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states - what could possibly go wrong? The Russians have been dreaming of a warm water port since the 16th century and now the dream is coming true!
What could go wrong? They could start sticking their noses into other people's affairs and get bloody noses like we got.
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We spent trillions and lost thousands since we went into the Middle East. The Russians are welcome to it. Merry Christmas.
PS: They can have Afghanistan back again too.
Ok, but I can only keep asking, why does the US have all those military bases around the world then? And why send extra troops to Saudi Arabia now if you're trying to pull back from being the world's police. Are the princes feeling nervous about something?
To a lot of the world this just looks like another example of the US pretending to be a backer of democracy while backing some of the worst regimes, been going on for decades. I'm not saying you don't have to make deals with the devil for reasons of "realpolitic", but geez the track record ain't that good. Much of what has been said about Middle East politics being a cesspool rings true, but why make it worse?
The Kurds did a lot of proxy fighting against ISIS, imagine how they feel now.
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Ok, but I can only keep asking, why does the US have all those military bases around the world then? And why send extra troops to Saudi Arabia now if you're trying to pull back from being the world's police. Are the princes feeling nervous about something?
To a lot of the world this just looks like another example of the US pretending to be a backer of democracy while backing some of the worst regimes, been going on for decades. I'm not saying you don't have to make deals with the devil for reasons of "realpolitic", but geez the track record ain't that good. Much of what has been said about Middle East politics being a cesspool rings true, but why make it worse?
The Kurds did a lot of proxy fighting against ISIS, imagine how they feel now.
Robert, The Kurds did not do proxy fighting. It wasn't for us. ISIS was killing Kurds and trying to take their territory. The Kurds were fighting for their land and people. Sure, we both had common interests in killing ISIS. But they weren't doing us any favors. Anymore than the USSR was our friend against the Nazis. That was Trump's point about Normandy. If they fought in Normandy not defending their own territory but helping us nonetheless, that would have been proxy fighting. And we would have owed them more favors.
Of course, the anti Trump media distorts the whole thing fooling everyone about what's going on. Now don't get me wrong. I think it would be nice for the Kurds to have a homeland. And as common soldiers on the battlefield I think we should try to help them. But that homeland currently is territory that occupies parts of Turkey, Syria and Iraq. Are we supposed to get into nation building again and go against these three countries? Hasn't nation building been discredited by you and others. Now suddenly, because Trump wants to get us out of there and stop being involved in the Middle East adventures, suddenly he's a bad guy. It seems the whole thing is about presidential politics than the Kurds.
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Ok, but I can only keep asking, why does the US have all those military bases around the world then? And why send extra troops to Saudi Arabia now if you're trying to pull back from being the world's police. Are the princes feeling nervous about something?
To a lot of the world this just looks like another example of the US pretending to be a backer of democracy while backing some of the worst regimes, been going on for decades. I'm not saying you don't have to make deals with the devil for reasons of "realpolitic", but geez the track record ain't that good. Much of what has been said about Middle East politics being a cesspool rings true, but why make it worse?
The Kurds did a lot of proxy fighting against ISIS, imagine how they feel now.
Robert - how naive can you be? The US are only in the ME in order to bring about an appreciation of poetry and spring flowers. Nothing to do with oil, oh no!! Next thing you'll be saying that they had those troops in Germany to act as an advance defence against the Russians and not just to teach the Germans about the wonders of Budweiser !!
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Robert - how naive can you be? The US are only in the ME in order to bring about an appreciation of poetry and spring flowers. Nothing to do with oil, oh no!! Next thing you'll be saying that they had those troops in Germany to act as an advance defence against the Russians and not just to teach the Germans about the wonders of Budweiser !!
The United States is not are. We've been a united country for a long time.
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Now suddenly, because Trump wants to get us out of there and stop being involved in the Middle East adventures, suddenly he's a bad guy.
He is not interested in getting out of the Middle East. Three days after he abandoned the Kurds, he sent 2000 troops to Saudi Arabia.
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He's not interested in nation building.
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He's not interested in nation building.
Apart from North Korea, no...
He is only interested in image building
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Apart from North Korea, no...
He is only interested in image building
That makes absolutely no sense.
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indeed
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Less than a week after greenlighting a Turkish invasion, the US is now imposing sanctions on Turkey for doing so. Schizophrenic.
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Less than a week after greenlighting a Turkish invasion, the US is now imposing sanctions on Turkey for doing so. Schizophrenic.
I agree. Trump;s instincts were right to begin with. We can;t nation build for the Kurds. So now, mainly because of Republican objections and criticism, he got nervous and is backing off. This makes it seem that his original decision didn't make sense. Sanctions are not going to scare Erdogan and just create a wall between the two of us and drive hi more into Russian hands. Trump should just keep his mouth shut and do nothing and let these characters work it out on their own. The would, you know. The Kurds have already made a deal with Assad for protection. Other deals will follow. Turkey just wants to keep the Kurds from invading Turkey and terrorizes their people. If Assad can do that, Erdogan will be happy. It's not our fight.
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By imposing sanctions, we're getting back into the fight where we don't belong. Even republicans are calling for sanctions. They're nuts. Turkey isn't our enemy. This won't end well.
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By imposing sanctions, we're getting back into the fight where we don't belong. Even republicans are calling for sanctions. They're nuts. Turkey isn't our enemy. This won't end well.
Well it's ended with the US having zero influence anywhere outside Israel and Saudi Arabia. Of course I know that this was Trump's strategy all along, and an inspired piece of strategy, but most of us on Planet Earth see it as a foolish blunder.
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Well it's ended with the US having zero influence anywhere outside Israel and Saudi Arabia. Of course I know that this was Trump's strategy all along, and an inspired piece of strategy, but most of us on Planet Earth see it as a foolish blunder.
I think you;'re getting ahead of yourself. If things quiet down in a couple of weeks with Turkey occupying the buffer zone, we'll be out of there, Trump's decision in the first place. Leave Syria for the Syrians, Kurds, and Russians to work things out and let them deal with any ISIS or other terrorists that remain. Trump will point to that fact that no Americans are getting killed there. That's something most regular Americans want despite the Republicans neocon's angst about it. Americans don't want to see their kids killed for these people any longer. It's not that complicated.
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Last time I checked, we still had 5000 soldiers in Iraq, so we are not exactly "out of there".
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Last time I checked, we still had 5000 soldiers in Iraq, so we are not exactly "out of there".
they ought to go too. Now that ISIS is basically gone, there's no reason for them to be there. The Turks Russians Syrians Iraqis and Kurds could clean up any remnants. We have no issues with those five countries.
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I agree. Trump;s instincts were right to begin with. We can;t nation build for the Kurds.
You've lost me. Who said that the US should help the Kurds nation-build? Is this just an assertion on your part?
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You've lost me. Who said that the US should help the Kurds nation-build? Is this just an assertion on your part?
It's a strawman to make Trump look intelligent. Nice try, but the effort is doomed to failure.
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It's a strawman to make Trump look intelligent.
That's a tall order.
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they ought to go too. Now that ISIS is basically gone, there's no reason for them to be there. The Turks Russians Syrians Iraqis and Kurds could clean up any remnants. We have no issues with those five countries.
The ISIS is gone basically the same way as Taliban.
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they ought to go too. Now that ISIS is basically gone, there's no reason for them to be there. The Turks Russians Syrians Iraqis and Kurds could clean up any remnants. We have no issues with those five countries.
"Peace in our time"
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... Now that ISIS is basically gone...
Experts keep telling us the same thing: "They'll be back, now."
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Experts keep telling us the same thing: "They'll be back, now."
According to one report it's ISIS that has taken over one of those towns and not any other militia brand or official army. These people are never defeated by arms; they are a state of mind and operate in no vacuum - they can appear and vanish exactly as they choose, which is their great strength; people keep their mouths shut and do whatever is required of them until the next wave of liberator washes in. Wasn't that the lesson of Vietnam? The other one was that being on the side of a foreign party is always going to get you hurt when he goes somewhere else, to leave you to your friends at home.
If you want a display of courage: in the current Barcelona riots the mob grabbed a female police member and threw her to the ground where they started to hit her: one of the protestors rushed in and saved her. That takes balls to do in such moments. The reporters in Hong Kong, on the other hand, crowded around the plainclothes cop, did nothing to save him when the crowd started up on him in the airport. Go figure where and who the good and the bad.
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Of the President's decision: "He doesn't understand the problem. He doesn't understand the repercussions of this."
This is basically the Trump presidency in a nutshell. And while Trump supporters would have you believe that it's just because people hate him, or hate Republicans, or hilariously, are "playing checkers while Trump is playing 3d chess" (yeah - some people actually make the argument that Trump is operating at a level far above mere mortals), the plain and simple fact is that he a) doesn't have a damn clue what he's doing, and more critically, believes that he's so smart that he doesn't have to learn.
Hate him, love him.. whatever - I don't care. He's unfit due to ignorance and arrogance, and whether he does the wrong thing or the right thing in any given situation, you're a complete fool if you trust him to make a solid decision based on underlying facts.
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You've lost me. Who said that the US should help the Kurds nation-build? Is this just an assertion on your part?
The Kurds were promised a nation after WWI. It never happened. They have occupied a quarter of Syria since that country's civil war started taking territory from ISIS and others. They want to have a homeland including that area and other territory they defend in Iraq, Iran and Turkey. They are not a nation now. The Kurds have been attacking Turkey putting us between them and Turkey. If we stay there, we'd be helping them nation-build by protecting them and their terrorist actions against Turkey, our NATO ally.
What I find interesting, is the very people who always complained about America's "nation building" adventures screwing things up wherever we go losing Americans and lots of other people along the way, are now complaining when Trump wants to stop nation building in Syria for the Kurds. So it seems that those opposed before are now for it just because Trump is against it. That's hypocritical. YOu guys should make up your mind what you really believe in.
Here are some article about Kurdish history and the current situation there.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/14/world/middleeast/the-kurds-facts-history.html
https://thekurdishproject.org/history-and-culture/kurdish-history/
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Since ISIS is more of a threat to Europe than the US, all those people above in those countries should encourage your leaders to send your armies to Syria to help keep ISIS in check. WHo are you to ask Americans to die for you and your ideas?
If you think the Kurds deserve a homeland, why did you screw them after WWI when you promised them one and then reneged? If you now think they deserve a homeland, then you send your sons into harm's way there and defend the Kurds against the Turks, Syrians, and others. You have no right to demand Americans to do the killing and dying for you.
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Frankly, you guys are all hypocrites. You complain about America when we stick our nose into things where they don;t belong. Then you complain when we try not to be involved and let the locals deal with things. Meanwhile you sit on your big fat a**es and do nothing criticising from the comfort of your homes.
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Frankly, you guys are all hypocrites. You complain about America when we stick our nose into things where they don;t belong. Then you complain when we try not to be involved and let the locals deal with things. Meanwhile you sit on your big fat a**es and do nothing criticising from the comfort of your homes.
Amen
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the man is a liability. He can't be trusted with a phone.
Well, he really can't be trusted, period, but maybe it wouldn't be a good idea to separate him from his telephone: his conversations with the presidents of at least two other countries have substantially advanced the effort to remove him from office:
- His conversation with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, as memorialized by the synopsis released by the White House, implicated him in a violation of U.S. election law. His appeal for foreign assistance to investigate a political opponent appears to have changed the political dynamic for impeachment among centrist Democrats and the general public beyond the instances of obstruction-of-justice documented by federal special counsel Robert Mueller.
- His conversation with Turkish President Recep Erdoğan—the substance of which hasn't yet been made public—somehow persuaded Trump to ignore the warnings of the military, civilian diplomats, and his own politically-appointed foreign policy advisors, and initiate a precipitate withdrawal from Syria that has appalled and infuriated members of the House of Representatives and the Senate from both parties. Incompetence is not an impeachable offense,* but the Syrian debacle has probably reduced the resistance among Republicans to the idea of jettisoning Trump and finding a more plausible candidate to run for president in 2020.
And those are just the president-to-president conversations we know about. I suspect more will be seeing the light of day now that Congress is back in session.
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*Although incompetence is not grounds for removal from office under the impeachment provisions of the U.S. Constitution, another clause provides for the removal of a president who "is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office."
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Well, he really can't be trusted, period, but maybe it wouldn't be a good idea to separate him from his telephone: his conversations with the presidents of at least two other countries have substantially advanced the effort to remove him from office:
- His conversation with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, as memorialized by the synopsis released by the White House, implicated him in a violation of U.S. election law. His appeal for foreign assistance to investigate a political opponent appears to have changed the political dynamic for impeachment among centrist Democrats and the general public beyond the instances of obstruction-of-justice documented by federal special counsel Robert Mueller.
- His conversation with Turkish President Recep Erdoğan—the substance of which hasn't yet been made public—somehow persuaded Trump to ignore the warnings of the military, civilian diplomats, and his own politically-appointed foreign policy advisors, and initiate a precipitate withdrawal from Syria that has appalled and infuriated members of the House of Representatives and the Senate from both parties. Incompetence is not an impeachable offense,* but the Syrian debacle has probably reduced the resistance among Republicans to the idea of jettisoning Trump and finding a more plausible candidate to run for president in 2020.
And those are just the president-to-president conversations we know about. I suspect more will be seeing the light of day now that Congress is back in session.
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*Although incompetence is not grounds for removal from office under the impeachment provisions of the U.S. Constitution, another clause provides for the removal of a president who "is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office."
Chris, Your post more belongs in the thread about impeachment, not Syria. However, many Republicans who still believe in Pax Americana, have not gotten the word from their voters. They're tired of all these wars in the Middle East. Trump is just carrying out what his supporters want from him. Once things settle down there, it's going to look he made a smart move. He'll say he saved American lives. What are others going to say? The Kurds still don;t have a homeland? That we should have left Americans ther to get killed.
Regarding the ability for a president to discharge his duties, it has to do with sickness and things like that. I has nothing to do with policy decisions you don;t agree with. That's what elections are for. IF you disagree with a president, then you have a chance to vote him out of office. That's how a democracy is suppose to work. You don't have a palace coup by impeaching him like they're trying to do now. At least not in America. They tried that against Clinton and it backfired.
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I just did a little research into Pax Americana. Here's a terrific 2012 opinion/article about it and its decline. I think it nails it to where we're going as a country and a world in the near future.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/04/the-end-of-pax-americana-how-western-decline-became-inevitable/256388/
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Frankly, you guys are all hypocrites. You complain about America when we stick our nose into things where they don;t belong. Then you complain when we try not to be involved and let the locals deal with things. Meanwhile you sit on your big fat a**es and do nothing criticising from the comfort of your homes.
We're here for discussion so it's not clear to me why you think the rest don't have a right to speak our minds.
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We're here for discussion so it's not clear to me why you think the rest don't have a right to speak our minds.
Well, I'm speaking my mind too.
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I just did a little research into Pax Americana. Here's a terrific 2012 opinion/article about it and its decline. I think it nails it to where we're going as a country and a world in the near future.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/04/the-end-of-pax-americana-how-western-decline-became-inevitable/256388/
Nothing in that article suggests that isolationism and nationalism are good things.
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Nothing in that article suggests that isolationism and nationalism are good things.
When did I say those things and where did I say the article said those things?
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When did I say those things and where did I say the article said those things?
Odd response, I didn't think that's what he was implying.
But getting back to Trump and the desire to get out of other countries, why send troops to Saudi Arabia then. I doubt that Americans back home care any more about Saudi Arabia than they do about Syria or Iraq. How do you convince American troops that they are in Saudi Arabia to "fight for their country", when 9/11 was funded by Saudi money and perpetrated by Saudi actors. Why is this hardly ever mentioned by anyone? Is it forgotten?
Are you going to Oceania next month? :)
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Odd response, I didn't think that's what he was implying.
But getting back to Trump and the desire to get out of other countries, why send troops to Saudi Arabia then. I doubt that Americans back home care any more about Saudi Arabia than they do about Syria or Iraq. How do you convince American troops that they are in Saudi Arabia to "fight for their country", when 9/11 was funded by Saudi money and perpetrated by Saudi actors. Why is this hardly ever mentioned by anyone? Is it forgotten?
Are you going to Oceania next month? :)
I don;t know the point he was trying to make except I didn't say it. He's welcome to clarify.
We have security and economic interests with the Saudis, as do Europe and the world. There are none with the Kurds or Syria any longer now that ISIS had been decimated. Kissinger called it realpolitik.
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I don;t know the point he was trying to make except I didn't say it. He's welcome to clarify.
We have security and economic interests with the Saudis, as do Europe and the world. There are none with the Kurds or Syria any longer now that ISIS had been decimated. Kissinger called it realpolitik.
Wrong on all counts. ISIS are not decimated, as someone said, any more than the Taliban. The US has a strategic interest in not allowing a Russian belt of influence from Iran to Lebanon. But hey ho - that's Trumppoliitik for you.
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Wrong on all counts. ISIS are not decimated, as someone said, any more than the Taliban. The US has a strategic interest in not allowing a Russian belt of influence from Iran to Lebanon. But hey ho - that's Trumppoliitik for you.
Why? Are you sure it is the US's strategic interest and not the EU's strategic interest in having the US there?
I have been far too busy to really pay attention to any of these recently, but this whole lets bash Trump just for the sake of bashing Trump is getting out of hand. I ask, what was Trump suppose to do? It is pretty clear Turkey was going in regardless if we stayed or left, so if we stayed were we to start a war with Turkey, with only 50 to 100 troops?
That would have been a slaughter and rash, and then Trump would have been criticized for not evacuating the troops, especially if any were killed. Not to mention, we would have been mired in another war, with a NATO ally.
I am tired of war. Let the Middle East sort out itself. I realize that the Middle East is right below Europe and could cause a shit storm for the EU if it fell again into chaos, but that is your problem. Please, feel free to send more of your men to help out the situation, but I feel fairly secure across the Atlantic.
On top of that, we (the USA) cant forever protect the lands of others, especially those many 1000s of miles away. They eventually need protect themselves and form closer alliances.
It was stated a while ago that the best move forward for the Kurds was to form an alliance with Syria, but of course no one in politics could even mention this, because of, Bashar al-Assad. And now look what is happening, they are forming an alliance. Not to mention Russia is now engaged in, at least, a proxy war with Turkey, a country they were becoming chummy with up until now.
The only two things that could happen that would warrant the USA returning is if ISIS started to regain it former power, and if Turkey followed through with its threats to confiscate and relocate our nuclear warheads located just within their country.
Warmongers, begone.
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... I ask, what was Trump suppose to do? It is pretty clear Turkey was going in regardless if we stayed or left, so if we stayed were we to start a war with Turkey, with only 50 to 100 troops?
That would have been a slaughter and rash, and then Trump would have been criticized for not evacuating the troops, especially if any were killed. Not to mention, we would have been mired in another war, with a NATO ally.
Those 100 Us soldiers were enough to stop Erdogan... He could not risk to kill any US soldier ... and enough to have a US presence there to have influence on the scheme of events.
It would have kept soldiers from Russia, Erdogan and Syrie away. Nobody wants to burn there fingers on killing US soldiers.
I am tired of war. Let the Middle East sort out itself. I realize that the Middle East is right below Europe and could cause a shit storm for the EU if it fell again into chaos, but that is your problem. Please, feel free to send more of your men to help out the situation, but I feel fairly secure across the Atlantic.
On top of that, we (the USA) cant forever protect the lands of others, especially those many 1000s of miles away. They eventually need protect themselves and form closer alliances.
It was stated a while ago that the best move forward for the Kurds was to form an alliance with Syria, but of course no one in politics could even mention this, because of, Bashar al-Assad. And now look what is happening, they are forming an alliance. Not to mention Russia is now engaged in, at least, a proxy war with Turkey, a country they were becoming chummy with up until now.
The only two things that could happen that would warrant the USA returning is if ISIS started to regain it former power, and if Turkey followed through with its threats to confiscate and relocate our nuclear warheads located just within their country.
Warmongers, bgone.
If you are tired of war - so be it; The US is selling enormous amounts $$ of weapons to the Middle East; so is involved now, as it always have been. Saoudi Arabia's war with Jemen is done with US weapons.
They sold weapons to Saddam Hussein to later invade Irak leaving it in chaos with hunderds of thousand Iraki's killed... They helped starting the nuclear facilities in Iran when the Sjah was in power...
Apparently selling weapons is good for the US economy...
Israel is part of the middle east and i do not think the US will stop supporting them; They give Israel a blank cheque to do anything they like; So the US is involved and will stay involved.
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It is pretty clear Turkey was going in regardless if we stayed or left, so if we stayed were we to start a war with Turkey, with only 50 to 100 troops?
The only thing keeping Turkey from invading Syria was that small contingent of troops. The US moved them back and three days later Turkey invaded.
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Those 100 Us soldiers were enough to stop Erdogan... He could not risk to kill any US soldier ... and enough to have a US presence there to have influence on the scheme of events.
It would have kept soldiers from Russia, Erdogan and Syrie away. Nobody wants to burn there fingers on killing US soldiers.
If you are tired of war - so be it; The US is selling enormous amounts $$ of weapons to the Middle East; so is involved now, as it always have been. Saoudi Arabia's war with Jemen is done with US weapons.
They sold weapons to Saddam Hussein to later invade Irak leaving it in chaos with hunderds of thousand Iraki's killed... They helped starting the nuclear facilities in Iran when the Sjah was in power...
Apparently selling weapons is good for the US economy...
Israel is part of the middle east and i do not think the US will stop supporting them; They give Israel a blank cheque to do anything they like; So the US is involved and will stay involved.
Indeed they are involved and always will be involved. Oil, though available cheaply within the US today, may not last long enough to support an economy with a head that refuses to believe gas guzzling is doing him no favours. The more you use up the less is left.
Also, of course, the days when being an island was economically possible as objective have passed. That said, Trump has his mirror image in the UK at the moment. In both cases you have eventually little option but to realise that both speak and act from with power circles of wealthy men. That shit may rain upon the heads of others due to ego-tripping madness is neither a factor nor a problem. For them.
But US foreign policy has always seemed a bit of a mystery to other nations. There seemed to be a great opportunity to win the war for hearts and minds in Vietnam, but the action was stopped without flexing the true muscle available to the country that would have brought it a win. The weakened and then supposedly obsolete USSR was able to take over the Crimean Pen. and nobody said boo! Our collective "western" support for democracy across the globe does apoear to be more catechism than fact. But hey, as long as we can keep selling them all guns, aircraft, bullets and junk - well, what's not to like, right?
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Why? Are you sure it is the US's strategic interest and not the EU's strategic interest in having the US there?
Yes because this is about Russia not Kurdistan. Russia is getting wall to wall influence across Eurasia and Trump just let another domino fall with nothing more than a phone call. Putin is laughing his socks off
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Those 100 Us soldiers were enough to stop Erdogan... He could not risk to kill any US soldier ... and enough to have a US presence there to have influence on the scheme of events.
It would have kept soldiers from Russia, Erdogan and Syrie away. Nobody wants to burn there fingers on killing US soldiers.
If you are tired of war - so be it; The US is selling enormous amounts $$ of weapons to the Middle East; so is involved now, as it always have been. Saoudi Arabia's war with Jemen is done with US weapons.
They sold weapons to Saddam Hussein to later invade Irak leaving it in chaos with hunderds of thousand Iraki's killed... They helped starting the nuclear facilities in Iran when the Sjah was in power...
Apparently selling weapons is good for the US economy...
Israel is part of the middle east and i do not think the US will stop supporting them; They give Israel a blank cheque to do anything they like; So the US is involved and will stay involved.
I'm very selective when I shoot pictures. I don't aim my camera willy nilly and shoot every possible image. Only the ones I think will count. Do you?
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I have been far too busy to really pay attention to any of these recently, but this whole lets bash Trump just for the sake of bashing Trump is getting out of hand.
I have some sympathy for this. Paying attention to him is a little like feeding trolls, isn't it. But he's difficult to avoid too. The series of tweets re Turkey and the Kurds and the now "sanctions" just seem so outlandish, unhinged even. The most charitable thing I can say is that he should stop thinking out loud on Twitter. I detect no cunning or long-term objectives, even selfish ones. It's difficult to believe that there are adults in the room there with him. Those jobs must be cushy as hell if the fear of losing them means going along with the buffoonery.
As to your question about what else he could do. He could have done nothing, maintained the status quo. My understanding is that the demands on the US forces there were not onerous, much less than the troop movement into Saudi Arabia for instance, so what was the compelling reason to change anything.
I completely understand your sentiments in general regarding pointless wars and pseudo-wars, they certainly don't seem to accomplish much, but that's no reason to destabilize things for no apparent reason either. If Trump feels the need to withdraw from the world, there were lots of other places to start, but I haven't heard of any of those other bases around the world being closed. My first question when I heard about this was what Saudi Arabia stood to gain by it. It's easy to imagine the princes pulling some strings. Were I am American, I would approach this whole aspect in another way. Given that there is no military draft anymore and that the US military is now a professional organization, I'd start asking if the country's leaders weren't using the national military as a mercenary force, paid for by other counties, rather than existing for the benefit of all Americans. Since there is less risk of losing the votes of parents of draftees, it removes one aspect from political consideration. I wouldn't want my kids' lives dependent on Trump's leadership.
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Yes because this is about Russia not Kurdistan. Russia is getting wall to wall influence across Eurasia and Trump just let another domino fall with nothing more than a phone call. Putin is laughing his socks off
So let Russia get bogged down in wars in the Middle East like we always seem too. America spent trillions, lost thousands, and for what? If others feel the ME is so important to get involved, let them step up to the plate. Americans would be glad to let them take a swing at the ball.
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I have some sympathy for this. Paying attention to him is a little like feeding trolls, isn't it. But he's difficult to avoid too. The series of tweets re Turkey and the Kurds and the now "sanctions" just seem so outlandish, unhinged even. The most charitable thing I can say is that he should stop thinking out loud on Twitter. I detect no cunning or long-term objectives, even selfish ones. It's difficult to believe that there are adults in the room there with him. Those jobs must be cushy as hell if the fear of losing them means going along with the buffoonery.
As to your question about what else he could do. He could have done nothing, maintained the status quo. My understanding is that the demands on the US forces there were not onerous, much less than the troop movement into Saudi Arabia for instance, so what was the compelling reason to change anything.
I completely understand your sentiments in general regarding pointless wars and pseudo-wars, they certainly don't seem to accomplish much, but that's no reason to destabilize things for no apparent reason either. If Trump feels the need to withdraw from the world, there were lots of other places to start, but I haven't heard of any of those other bases around the world being closed. My first question when I heard about this was what Saudi Arabia stood to gain by it. It's easy to imagine the princes pulling some strings. Were I am American, I would approach this whole aspect in another way. Given that there is no military draft anymore and that the US military is now a professional organization, I'd start asking if the country's leaders weren't using the national military as a mercenary force, paid for by other counties, rather than existing for the benefit of all Americans. Since there is less risk of losing the votes of parents of draftees, it removes one aspect from political consideration. I wouldn't want my kids' lives dependent on Trump's leadership.
I suspect that Erdogan told Trump they are moving in to create that buffer zone between the Kurds in northern Syria and Turkey proper, no matter what. The terrorist arm of the Kurds has pushed Turkey where they can't wait any longer. So Trump moved his troops out of Syria. He may remember when Reagan moved troops out of Lebanon after the Marines got killed when their barracks were blown up. He didn't want that to happen on his watch. Not for Syria. Not for the Kurds. Not for the Russians.
Regarding your comment about American leaders not having to worry about parents because their kids are volunteers, I think your position is very unfeeling. Regardless of being a volunteer or not, these are Americans getting killed. The fact is they are patriotic and volunteered. That should be appreciated and respected. Some members have volunteered for multiple tours of duty in the Middle East risking their lives every time they went. They should be protected because they are our sons and daughters. I am sure you would want the same if they were your soldiers.
Frankly, I'm opposed to an all-volunteer military. I think having some members conscripted forces everyone to think more about war and its consequences. Nothing focuses one's attention more than the hangman's noose. Frankly, it was the draft mainly that put the death knell into our efforts in Vietnam. Americans just said enough. I think we're reaching that point, at least in the Middle East, after 18 years of war there since 9-11. It may push as back in other areas as well. We can't afford it any longer. And we're tired. We've been doing it since WWII.
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I suspect that Erdogan told Trump they are moving in to create that buffer zone between the Kurds in northern Syria and Turkey proper, no matter what.
Unlikely. They have had years to do so and haven't. Yet the moment the US moves out of their way, in they go.
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So let Russia get bogged down in wars in the Middle East like we always seem too. America spent trillions, lost thousands, and for what? If others feel the ME is so important to get involved, let them step up to the plate. Americans would be glad to let them take a swing at the ball.
You keep missing the point. Russia is not concerned with nation building or democracy or public relations. They care about global strategy. Chess not poker.
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As Trump just said at a news conference, "It's not our problem."
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I don't know the point he was trying to make except I didn't say it. He's welcome to clarify.
My point is that the whole article talks about all the horrible things that happen in a power vacuum. What you're advocating for is the formation of a massive power vacuum. It's completely fair to say that in years past democrats have ben complaining about nation building, foreign wars etc., and I think those concerns still hold. However, there's a difference between what we did in Iraq and what we were doing in Syria. The former caused mass instability - the latter is a commitment of a few hundred troops to *maintain* stability and, coincidentally, avoid creating a power vacuum that countries that don't like us will be happy to try and fill.
I'm not super comfortable with doing nothing while regional conflicts break out all over the globe. Like it or not, we *are* a global society, and these events *will* impact us, much as some of us might like to pretend that we can retreat to the CONUS and remain untouched.
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As Trump just said at a news conference, "It's not our problem."
Well if Trump says it, it must be true - after all, he's a very stable genius. But I recommend looking at a map before deciding.
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You're welcome to make it your problem. 😀
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Regarding your comment about American leaders not having to worry about parents because their kids are volunteers, I think your position is very unfeeling. Regardless of being a volunteer or not, these are Americans getting killed. The fact is they are patriotic and volunteered. That should be appreciated and respected. Some members have volunteered for multiple tours of duty in the Middle East risking their lives every time they went. They should be protected because they are our sons and daughters. I am sure you would want the same if they were your soldiers.
I don't disagree with any of this, what I said was very cynical. But when it comes to rich selfish people in power, I don't believe it's possible to be cynical enough. We use terms like "leaders", "founding fathers", etc., but I think we would be better off if we thought of them as "employees". In the Vietnam era, it was not unknown for sons of gentry to miss the shooting, as I remember it, they're not like you and me.
A few times in these pages, some people have expressed thoughts along the lines of "he won the election, let's see what he does and we'll judge him at the next election". I disagree with this, not just with Trump, I'd say it with any of them. Like any employee, you have to watch them and judge their performance all the time. Except for a small number of CEOs, at Amazon, Apple, Google, who apparently can rule with the authority of feudal landlords (a mistake imo), all others report to someone somewhere. The President is not the CEO of the country, he's not your daddy, he's not your king, he's just the guy you hired to do a job and like all powerful employees, they need to be watched all the time. It's a shame nobody was watching harder at GM, the investment banks, Enron, AIG, etc., might have saved a lot of people some pointless suffering. Our responsibilities as citizens in a democracy do not end when we leave the voting booth.
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In a press conference today, Trump said that withdrawing US troops was a "strategically brilliant" plan, "the Kurds are safer now", and "there is plenty of sand for them to play in". He is looney tunes.
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I don't disagree with any of this, what I said was very cynical. But when it comes to rich selfish people in power, I don't believe it's possible to be cynical enough. We use terms like "leaders", "founding fathers", etc., but I think we would be better off if we thought of them as "employees". In the Vietnam era, it was not unknown for sons of gentry to miss the shooting, as I remember it, they're not like you and me.
A few times in these pages, some people have expressed thoughts along the lines of "he won the election, let's see what he does and we'll judge him at the next election". I disagree with this, not just with Trump, I'd say it with any of them. Like any employee, you have to watch them and judge their performance all the time. Except for a small number of CEOs, at Amazon, Apple, Google, who apparently can rule with the authority of feudal landlords (a mistake imo), all others report to someone somewhere. The President is not the CEO of the country, he's not your daddy, he's not your king, he's just the guy you hired to do a job and like all powerful employees, they need to be watched all the time. It's a shame nobody was watching harder at GM, the investment banks, Enron, AIG, etc., might have saved a lot of people some pointless suffering. Our responsibilities as citizens in a democracy do not end when we leave the voting booth.
I appreciate your honesty. Thank you.
Sure politicians are cynical and imperious and want power. That's why they're in politics. That's why our founders, who were experienced in being under the thumb of imperial power, set up government to limit power. There are enumerated powers listed where the government can rule only. All other areas they cannot rule at all. That's left for the States and people to decide.
Also, there are checks and balances in our constitution as well that limits power of government. The president cannot declare war, Congress does, but the president can veto it. The president can make deals with foreign countries, but treaties must be approved by the Senate. The president nominates judges and justices, but it must be affirmed by the Senate. Congress legislates laws, but the president has to approve it or its not law. The Supreme Court reviews legislation and presidential executive orders through lawsuits and can declare them unconstitutional and invalid. Supreme Court judges can be impeached and removed from office. Regarding removal of presidents, it was defined very narrowly: high crimes and misdemeanors. The Constitution reserved ending of presidential terms at election time. They wanted to leave it to the electors of each of the states to decide. It's why no president has ever been found guilty and removed from office. They're not removed for policy decisions. Parliamentary governments remove leaders midstream. That's not an American tradition and our governmental process does not favor that approach.
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In a press conference today, Trump said that withdrawing US troops was a "strategically brilliant" plan, "the Kurds are safer now", and "there is plenty of sand for them to play in". He is looney tunes.
I didn't hear his speech and you probably are cherry picking his words. On the other hand, only a New Yorker like me would appreciate his sense of humor. You got know how to laugh at yourself.
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I didn't hear his speech and you probably are cherry picking his words. On the other hand, only a New Yorker like me would appreciate his sense of humor. You got know how to laugh at yourself.
Turkey's invasion of northern Syria to massacre the Kurds is not a laughing matter.
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OK I watched his statement. You;re cherry picking. He wasn't referring to the Kurds alone. He was describing how Syrians, Turks, Kurds and others have been fighting for hundreds of years over their. There's plenty of sand for them to play in (if they want). What he was getting at, if they want to fight with each other like children fight in a sandbox, let them. It's not our problem. We don't have to be there.
I agree. Let them play without us.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNdqDu2IKSY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNdqDu2IKSY)
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Turkey's invasion of northern Syria to massacre the Kurds is not a laughing matter.
You're being hysterical and factually wrong. You're playing politics. You ought to read up on this thing from non-biased sources instead of watching the anti-Trump press. Turkey invaded Syria to set up a 20 mile buffer zone to keep terrorist Kurds out of Turkey where Kurds had been killing Turks to make a homeland for themselves. If the same thing was happening to your country, you'd do the same thing. Kurds have taken control of a quarter of Syrian territory that does not belong to them. So now Syria is willing to "protect" the Kurds but the Kurds have to give up something, not sure what that is, maybe the oil they captured. In the Middle East, things usually come down to money.
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You ought to read up on this thing from non-biased sources instead of watching the anti-Trump press.
The "anti-Trump press" I watched was a press conference where the only one speaking was Trump. By the way, a bipartisan majority of the House of Representatives (354 to 60) voted today to condemn Trump's abandonment of the Kurds in Syria. A majority of Republicans joined the Democrats in the condemnation.
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Supreme Court judges can be impeached and removed from office. Regarding removal of presidents, it was defined very narrowly: high crimes and misdemeanors. The Constitution reserved ending of presidential terms at election time.
The impeachment and removal provisions of the U.S. Constitution apply to "all civil officers" of the federal government. The constitutional standards for impeachment and removal are the same in all cases.
The President, Vice President and all civil officers of the United States, shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and conviction of, treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors.
— Article II, §4
High crimes and misdemeanors is a common law term that has been used in Anglo-American impeachments since the 14th Century. Its meaning might best be summarized as "abuse of power" or, (perhaps exclusively) in the American constitutional context, "behavior inconsistent with the defendant's oath of office."
Impeachment is a political proceeding, not a criminal one. It does not require a criminal violation, but if a criminal law has been violated, the impeached civil official may be prosecuted.
Judgment in cases of impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust or profit under the United States: but the party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgment and punishment, according to law.
— Article I, §3
With respect to nationally-elected officials with fixed terms—i.e., the president and vice president—impeachment and removal from office explicitly are intended to end the office-holder's tenure before "election time."
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I appreciate your honesty. Thank you.
Sure politicians are cynical and imperious and want power. That's why they're in politics. That's why our founders, who were experienced in being under the thumb of imperial power, set up government to limit power. There are enumerated powers listed where the government can rule only. All other areas they cannot rule at all. That's left for the States and people to decide.
Also, there are checks and balances in our constitution as well that limits power of government. The president cannot declare war, Congress does, but the president can veto it. The president can make deals with foreign countries, but treaties must be approved by the Senate. The president nominates judges and justices, but it must be affirmed by the Senate. Congress legislates laws, but the president has to approve it or its not law. The Supreme Court reviews legislation and presidential executive orders through lawsuits and can declare them unconstitutional and invalid. Supreme Court judges can be impeached and removed from office. Regarding removal of presidents, it was defined very narrowly: high crimes and misdemeanors. The Constitution reserved ending of presidential terms at election time. They wanted to leave it to the electors of each of the states to decide. It's why no president has ever been found guilty and removed from office. They're not removed for policy decisions. Parliamentary governments remove leaders midstream. That's not an American tradition and our governmental process does not favor that approach.
Alan, you have a kind of text book view of how government works, and most of that is practically untrue. I was a reporter for 25 years and I covered government as every level, from city councils and school boards to the federal government, and have watched ordinances and laws being made. We've been in several wars (Korea, Vietnam, the Middle East) but haven't declared war since World War II. The wars were launched by Presidents with the acquiescence of Congress, but not a declaration by Congress. Contrary to what you suggest, "high crimes and misdemeanors" is not narrow, it is, in fact, exceptionally wide, and allows impeachment on almost any grounds, criminal or not. You could impeach a president for eating cheese on Wednesdays, because impeachment is a political process, not a criminal process, although criminal processes may come later. But, in effect, the House and Senate are left to define high crimes and misdemeanors, and if they decided eating cheese on Wednesday was a high crime, then that's what it is. No American President has been found guilty in an impeachment trial, but one (Nixon) resigned when told that he would be convicted if it came to trial; another conviction failed in the Senate by one vote (Johnson.) Treaties must be approved by the Senate, but the President is in charge of foreign policy, of which treaties are a very minor part, and Trump has felt free to abrogate them. The ongoing disaster in Syria, created by our loony tunes President, involved no treaties or even consultation with Congress. Because he's a raving narcissist, and thinks he knows everything better than anyone, he just went ahead and ordered it up, and nobody knows why...maybe he had an irritating wrinkle in his underwear, but in any case, it's almost universally seen as a disaster, by liberals and conservatives alike. By the way, 12 Americans have been killed in Afghanistan in 2019, probably not many more than if these adventurous young men had been training and driving fast cars in the US. Any casualty is sad, but more than a hundred Americans die in auto accidents EVERY DAY, so our combat deaths are really a pretty minor thing in the whole panoply of tragedies.
I will tell you, that if somebody sliced the pie between liberals and conservatives in the US, I'd be close to the slice, but probably, in most cases, but not always, on the liberal side, especially in matters of racial and gender equality. I think what the Dems are discussing with a wealth tax (ridiculously unworkable) and medicare for all (ditto) are very wrong. And, I would trade Donald Trump for Ronald Reagan in one second, because Reagan may have been senile toward the end of his presidency, but he was surrounded by fairly able people. And though possibly senile, he wasn't nuts. Trump is nuts. I have a hard time taking seriously people who don't see that.
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I will tell you, that if somebody sliced the pie between liberals and conservatives in the US, I'd be close to the slice, but probably, in most cases, but not always, on the liberal side, especially in matters of racial and gender equality. I think what the Dems are discussing with a wealth tax (ridiculously unworkable) and medicare for all (ditto) are very wrong. And, I would trade Donald Trump for Ronald Reagan in one second, because Reagan may have been senile toward the end of his presidency, but he was surrounded by fairly able people. And though possibly senile, he wasn't nuts. Trump is nuts. I have a hard time taking seriously people who don't see that.
To an outsider, the surprising thing is that there aren't enough competent people left in the government to block such "brilliant" decisions. Especially in the military matters.
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To an outsider, the surprising thing is that there aren't enough competent people left in the government to block such irresponsible and stupid decisions. Especially in the military matters.
There were. They tried.
Career U.S. military, diplomatic, and intelligence officials, as well as some of Trump's own political appointees, apparently warned the president repeatedly about the consequences of acceding to a Turkish request to remove our "tripwire" forces from Syria. Trump reportedly ignored them.
Many of Trump's most controversial decisions have been executed pursuant to statutory authority explicitly or implicitly granted by Congress to previous presidents, and the decisions could have been countermanded, or the authority rescinded, by legislative action. However, tactical decisions regarding military forces are constitutionally entrusted to the president:
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States . . .
— Article II, §2
So Trump's withdrawal decision was a legal albeit egregious exercise of his constitutional authority.
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Many of Trump's most controversial decisions have been executed pursuant to statutory authority explicitly or implicitly granted by Congress to previous presidents, and the decisions could have been countermanded, or the authority rescinded, by legislative action. However, tactical decisions regarding military forces are constitutionally entrusted to the president:
So Trump's withdrawal decision was a legal albeit egregious exercise of his constitutional authority.
Whoever made that law, he didn't anticipate a president like Trump. More blunders like that could be still coming.
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Obama made the disastrous decision in 2011 against all his commander's advice to remove troops from Iraq. It created a power vacuum that set up the growth of ISIS. Nobody seemed to get into such a blather about it as the situation with the Kurds. Truman fired WWII hero 5-star General MacArthur and Johnson continually ignored his generals in Vietnam. He use to check the battlemaps in the Oval office everyday to tell the generals what to do. He refused to let them do the very things they wanted to do that would have won the war for America. The generals work for the President not the other way around. If he screw things up, than the people who he works for can elect another president next year.
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If the Democrats think they can impeach a president calling it only a political process that has no nexus to a crime, they'll be standing on very shaky ground with the American people. The voters are not stupid. They can smell a political act when it happens. It cheapens the process by saying that eating a ham and cheese sandwich could be considered an impeachable act. The people won't stand for that.
I think Trump deliberately insulted Speaker Pelosi today to get her ire up even more to move her to impeach him. It will look so phony, so political, the people will punish the Democrats when the Senate finds him innocent and does not convict. But go ahead and make his day.
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I ran Trump's latest let's make a deal letter to Erdogan through a Fletcher Kincaid readability scoring program and here are the results:
"Your text has an average grade level of about 6. It should be easily understood by 11 to 12 year olds."
The program generously rounded up from an actual grade level of 5.3, which is the same grade level as his speeches. Stable genius.
Can't wait to read Trump's apologists' replies to this one. It will be a laugh a minute.
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Some of the posts here might get a grade level of 4. :)
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If the Democrats think they can impeach a president calling it only a political process that has no nexus to a crime, they'll be standing on very shaky ground with the American people. The voters are not stupid. They can smell a political act when it happens. It cheapens the process by saying that eating a ham and cheese sandwich could be considered an impeachable act. The people won't stand for that.
I think Trump deliberately insulted Speaker Pelosi today to get her ire up even more to move her to impeach him. It will look so phony, so political, the people will punish the Democrats when the Senate finds him innocent and does not convict. But go ahead and make his day.
Of course - it's what we expect from a brilliant strategist.
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Obama made the disastrous decision in 2011 against all his commander's advice to remove troops from Iraq. It created a power vacuum that set up the growth of ISIS. Nobody seemed to get into such a blather about it as the situation with the Kurds. Truman fired WWII hero 5-star General MacArthur and Johnson continually ignored his generals in Vietnam. He use to check the battlemaps in the Oval office everyday to tell the generals what to do. He refused to let them do the very things they wanted to do that would have won the war for America. The generals work for the President not the other way around. If he screw things up, than the people who he works for can elect another president next year.
So much for lessons learned...
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Did he? Against all his commander's advice?
Yes, Obama was warned removal of troops would create a vacuum in Iraq, just as Trump is being warned about a vacuum he's creating in Syria. Both presidents were, however, responding to their electorates. They both made promises in their campaigns about getting Americans out of war. They both were and are looking at getting re-elected when they made their decisions. Presidents are political. They should be. After all, in a democracy they answer to the people, not generals. Of course, their actions have consequences. Obama's didn't work out well as ISIS was borne. We'll see what happens with Trumps. It's too early to know what will happen. Hopefully, nothing. We'll just be out of there.
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So much for lessons learned...
Generals have made some real blunders as well as civilian presidents. But on balance, the founders of the US Constitution wanted civilians in charge of the military. COmmanders don't answer to the people. The President, who is elected, is legally the Commander-in-Chief. Otherwise you become like Egypt with a military junta taking over. Or Pakistan where every few years the military dumps the civilian governments. That arrangement is worse.
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Turkey agreed to a 5 day ceasefire. That will allow Kurds to safely move south of the 20 mile buffer zone Turkey wants set up to prevent Kurdish incursions into Turkey. So far so good.
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Turkey agreed to a 5 day ceasefire. That will allow Kurds to safely move south of the 20 mile buffer zone Turkey wants set up to prevent Kurdish incursions into Turkey. So far so good.
Typical Trump Mode Of Operation. First create a problem (greenlighting of the invasion) and one week later scramble to put out the fires. Gradual transition could have been agreed upon and done before the Turks marched in. Many lives could have been saved, and no ISIS fighters would have escaped.
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Typical Trump Mode Of Operation. First create a problem (greenlighting of the invasion) and one week later scramble to put out the fires. Gradual transition could have been agreed upon and done before the Turks marched in. Many lives could have been saved, and no ISIS fighters would have escaped.
The Kurds would not have moved in negotiations. It required deadly force from the Turks to get the ball moving. It's the way the world works.
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No, negotiations were being conducted by the coalition(!) members, when Trump unilaterally pulled out troops at a moment's instance after a call with Erdogan. It's how Trumpworld works, chaos and destruction, despite all advice by professionals.
So what was said during that call? Time to release the transcript of yet another great phonecall.
I'm not familiar with what negotiations?
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Obviously.
Your snarky comment does not enlighten us. I'm not familiar with any negotiation America was having with the Kurds to pull back their troops 20 miles from the Turkish border. Even if there were any, my point is that the Kurds would not have budged. They only moved to get out of the way of Turks moving into the buffer zone with force. If you're aware of different information, we'd all be glad to hear it.
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What's interesting, is if another US president had told the world that we are supporting the Kurds to take away territory from Turkey, Iraq and Syria and give it to the Kurds so they can have a homeland, all you guys would say there goes America again throwing its weight around. It wants to decide how the world should work and walk over three sovereign nations to do it. And you'd be right. But because Trump is doing it, and says it's not our problem and it's not something we should do, suddenly you reverse your beliefs and support the idea the America should rule the world. You ought to make up your minds what it is you want from America. Because you seem very confused.
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What's interesting, is if another US president had told the world that we are supporting the Kurds to take away territory from Turkey, Iraq and Syria and give it to the Kurds so they can have a homeland, all you guys would say there goes America again throwing its weight around.
Who said anything about taking territory away from Turkey, Iraq and Syria to give the Kurds a homeland? It is another one of your red herrings.
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Who said anything about taking territory away from Turkey, Iraq and Syria to give the Kurds a homeland? It is one of your red herrings.
I'm not saying it. Those are the facts. The Kurds have already taken a quarter of Syrian territory under our protection while we were fighting ISIS. That's defacto Kurdish homeland. If we weren't helping them, why are they now losing some of their homeland when we left? That's "nation building" that Democrats and others have said we should stop.
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Trump totally owned by Mattis:
“I earned my spurs on the battlefield … and Donald Trump earned his spurs in a letter from a doctor,” Mattis said.
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From German Spiegel (October 18, 2019) - The US gives Erdogan what he wanted
"The US and Turkey today agreed on a ceasefire in Syria," said US Vice President Mike Pence. "It is not a ceasefire" countered Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu.
Such quibbling is not uncommon in diplomatic crisis talks. In this case, behind the contradictory explanations is more than just "semantics," as a Pence adviser stated - but a bitter truth. This truth is that Turkey is achieving its stated goal of expelling the Kurds from northern Syria - and Damascus, Moscow and Tehran are also laughing.
On the other hand, US President Donald Trump can brag about having extinguished a fire he himself set. In the long run, however, the cost to Washington is enormous.
The US has lost important ground in Syria - as well as international status and influence: which partner still trusts them?
https://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/gefechtspause-in-nordsyrien-donald-trump-gibt-recep-tayyip-erdogan-was-er-will-a-1292120.html
And from Reuters:
CEYLANPINAR, Turkey (Reuters) - Shelling and gunfire resounded around the northeast Syrian town of Ras al Ain on Friday, a day after Turkey agreed with the United States to pause its offensive in Syria for five days to let Kurdish forces withdraw.
The truce was announced some 13 hours earlier by U.S. Vice President Mike Pence after talks in Ankara with Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan. Turkey agreed to the five-day pause to let the Kurdish-led SDF militia withdraw from a “safe zone” Ankara had sought to capture. The deal was praised by U.S. President Donald Trump, who said it would save “millions of lives,” while Turkey cast it as a complete victory.
A Turkish official told Reuters that Ankara got “exactly what we wanted” from the talks with the United States. Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu described the deal as a pause, solely to allow the Kurdish fighters to withdraw. They would be forced to give up their heavy weapons and their positions would be destroyed, he said.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-security-turkey-usa/shelling-heard-around-syrian-town-after-turkish-u-s-ceasefire-deal-idUSKBN1WX0GT
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A "realpolitic" analysis that Alan might like that argues that Trump may be right about some things in this area, https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/10/18/trump-syria-turkey-kurds-news-analysis-229858 (https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/10/18/trump-syria-turkey-kurds-news-analysis-229858). The writers don't make the case that he consciously analyzed the situation the way they do, as I read it. They do make one point that I believe that Alan also made, which is that maybe it's ok to let Russia get mixed up in that quagmire, it will be its problem, and anyway Syria is not of strategic importance to the US (i.e., that have no oil).
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A "realpolitic" analysis that Alan might like that argues that Trump may be right about some things in this area, https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/10/18/trump-syria-turkey-kurds-news-analysis-229858 (https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/10/18/trump-syria-turkey-kurds-news-analysis-229858). The writers don't make the case that he consciously analyzed the situation the way they do, as I read it. They do make one point that I believe that Alan also made, which is that maybe it's ok to let Russia get mixed up in that quagmire, it will be its problem, and anyway Syria is not of strategic importance to the US (i.e., that have no oil).
The author of the article checked with me before he wrote it. 😏 one thing though. He didn't have to knock Trump. If he agreed with how it's coming out, then Trump did the right thing. Accusing him of not knowing what he's doing it's just a cheap shot to not give him the credit he deserves. That's just typical anti-trump stuff. It didn't belong in the article.
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That's just typical anti-trump stuff. It didn't belong in the article.
Because only pro-Trump stuff belongs in articles?
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Because only pro-Trump stuff belongs in articles?
the author was discussing a policy in the Middle East. Includng an anti or pro-Trump polemical rhetoric, he undermined his point and showed his prejudice against the president. Unnecessary for this opinion.
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The author of the article checked with me before he wrote it. 😏 one thing though. He didn't have to knock Trump. If he agreed with how it's coming out, then Trump did the right thing. Accusing him of not knowing what he's doing it's just a cheap shot to not give him the credit he deserves. That's just typical anti-trump stuff. It didn't belong in the article.
Mmm nope. There's such a thing as doing the right thing for the wrong reason. In this case, however, Trump did the wrong thing for the wrong reason. Syria is of strategic importance because a) it has a land border with Israel and b) it will be an ally of Iran and Russia in proximity to a large oil supply.
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Mmm nope. There's such a thing as doing the right thing for the wrong reason. In this case, however, Trump did the wrong thing for the wrong reason. Syria is of strategic importance because a) it has a land border with Israel and b) it will be an ally of Iran and Russia in proximity to a large oil supply.
The writer of the article doesn't agree with you. Neither do I. Neither does Trump.
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Ask the 160,000 diplaced people and the families of the 100's of dead Kurds if Trump did the right thing ...
There was no reason for such an overly rushed (24-hour) departure ..., other than pleasing Erdogan so that he would promise to buy some more "Patriot" systems.
This is yet another demonstration of impulsive, ill-considered action. He wouldn't hesitate to do the same with US soldiers or allied forces. The man is demonstrably unfit as commander in chief (amongst other things).
What does someone who inficts such unnecessary suffering on other people deserve, in your opinion?
The Kurds had no right to occupy Syrian territory. They used the civil war there to steal property that didn't belong to them and make it their homeland. Then, they used it as a staging area against the Turks, ours and your NATO ally. If they killed Dutch citizens as a NATO ally, you would be upset if we protected them against you, and rightly so. Try to get past your political hatred of Trump. Make believe Obama was still president. Then you'd be all in agreement with what the president did. You'd be arguing the very points I'm making.
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The Kurds had no right to occupy Syrian territory. They used the civil war there to steal property that didn't belong to them and make it their homeland. Then, they used it as a staging area against the Turks, ours and your NATO ally.
Kurds live in Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran (and lots of other places, including the United States). The Kurds lived in Turkey before it was Turkey, Syria before it was Syria, Iraq before it was Iraq, and Iran before it was Iran. They have a perfect right to live where they live.
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Kurds live in Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran (and lots of other places, including the United States). The Kurds lived in Turkey before it was Turkey, Syria before it was Syria, Iraq before it was Iraq, and Iran before it was Iran. They have a perfect right to live where they live.
Kurds also live in America. But they don't want to set up their own country here. I'm sure Assad has no problem with the Kurds there if they continue to act like Syrian citizens. Ditto in Turkey Iran and Iraq. It doesn't suddenly become America's responsibility to go against those three nations to assist Kurds get their own country.
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Kurds also live in America. But they don't want to set up their own country here. I'm sure Assad has no problem with the Kurds there if they continue to act like Syrian citizens. Ditto in Turkey Iran and Iraq. It doesn't suddenly become America's responsibility to go against those three nations to assist Kurds get their own country.
You keep on saying this like that will make it true. Nobody expected the US to help the Kurds build a homeland - just to prevent thousands of innocent people being killed. If that's not responsibility, I don't know what is.
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Try to get past your political hatred of Trump. Make believe Obama was still president. Then you'd be all in agreement with what the president did. You'd be arguing the very points I'm making.
Ahhh, maybe you should explain that to the Senate majority leader:
Withdrawing U.S. forces from Syria is a grave strategic mistake. It will leave the American people and homeland less safe, embolden our enemies, and weaken important alliances. Sadly, the recently announced pullout risks repeating the Obama administration’s reckless withdrawal from Iraq, which facilitated the rise of the Islamic State in the first place.
— Mitch McConnell, Republican senator from Kentucky, OpEd article in the Washington Post, October 18, 2019
Also note Mitt Romney's statement:
What we have done to the Kurds will stand as a blood stain in the annals of American history. The decision to abandon the Kurds violates one of our most sacred principles—that the United States stands with our allies.
— Mitt Romney, Republican senator from Utah, Twitter, October 18, 2019
Hint #1: Romney is positioning himself to become the Republican candidate for president.
Hint #2: McConnell doesn't care who is the next president, as long as he (or she, although that's not likely) is a Republican.
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It doesn't suddenly become America's responsibility to go against those three nations to assist Kurds get their own country.
Nobody said it did, except you and your red herring.
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Protecting the Kurds and staying in Syria is a political and military quagmire like Vietnam. Trump got American troops the hell out of there before more got killed. If he waited until afterwards, you guys would complain he waited too long. Why didn't he get them out sooner. You'll never be happy with what he does.
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Ahhh, maybe you should explain that to the Senate majority leader:
Also note Mitt Romney's statement:
Hint #1: Romney is positioning himself to become the Republican candidate for president.
Hint #2: McConnell doesn't care who is the next president, as long as he (or she, although that's not likely) is a Republican.
ISIS is dead. They aren't going to rehabilitate themselves. The Russian, Syrians, Turks, and yes, even the Kurds will keep them down. If a few remain, they're no threat to the US mainland. You post only shows that politicians say political things. Because the pullout has been getting negative press, the politicians take the side of what seems to be popular and are opposed too. It takes guts to go against the tide. Trump will be proven right, We have no interests there. The Kurds already made a deal with their landlords the Syrians. The Turks will occupy a twenty mile buffer zone to keep Kurdish terrorists from invading Turkey. The Russians are already playing policemen by helping the Turks patrol the buffer zone to keep the peace. Soon, very soon, everyone will forget about the Kurds and move on and you'll find another thing about Trump to complain about. After all, that's you job until the election.
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Complete nonsense. There was no justifiable reason for a 24-hour pull-out that caused an avoidable huge human suffering and a deathtoll of many hundreds, other than monetary and personal gain. Hitting another moral lowground. And supporting that says a lot about you.
You have no right to offer up Americans to be sacrificed in battle. Your Dutch. Mind your business.
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Nonsense. It was made our business as much as yours.
Defending such an incompetent 'occupant of The Whitehouse' makes it your business by definition.
If it's your business send Dutch troops to help the Kurds. We'll see how long that lasts when Dutch troops start returning in body bags.
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You're still not getting it. There was no need for a 24-hour pull-out. Why not give it a week, or a month, if one 'needs' to rush things?
Besides, the US military commanders said that they were, perhaps, at 20% of the course of training the YPG in containing the ISIS threat.
The only reason is an incompetent fool at the helm who went off script in a phone call, again, and you're defending his incompetence. Which makes you ..., by association.
You're just another armchair general who isn't the one sacrificing your sons and daughters.
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Stop dodging your personal responsibility.
So you agree with the unnecessary sacifice of other people, unless they are American, or not?
You're Monday morning quarterbacking. Look what happened when Obama removed our troops in 2011? Thousands of people were killed and millions displaced by the terror of ISIS which grew out of the vacuum he created.
Trump didn't authorize the Turks to move. In any case, the Kurds knew what was coming. Trump had been telling everyone for months he was going to pull our troops out of there. What were the Kurds waiting for? They knew it was coming and in fact were negotiating with Assad before it happened. That's why within two days, a deal was set with Assad after Trump pulled out. It was no secret. However, the Kurds would not move until the Turks started shooting. So instead of backing off months ago, they continued to press for their homeland against Turkey who could not put up with their terrorist attacks any longer. Our ally Turkey was complaining to Trump they have to stop the Kurds killing Turks. So Turkey gave them a bloody nose. That's how the world works. The Kurds thought that Trump would change his mind or whatever. Bad decision.
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You're still not getting it. There was no need for a 24-hour pull-out. Why not give it a week, or a month, if one 'needs' to rush things?
Besides, the US military commanders said that they were, perhaps, at 20% of the course of training the YPG in containing the ISIS threat.
The only reason is an incompetent fool at the helm who went off script in a phone call, again, and you're defending his incompetence. Which makes you ..., by association.
So who's fault will it be if shooting breaks out again after the current 5 day "shooting" pause to allow Kurds to move out of the buffer zone? The Kurds aren't moving yet. Turkey says if they don't move, they'll start shooting again to force them out. They want to create a 30KM (18.6 mile) zone to prevent Kurds from attacking Turkey. They will also use that area to move back 3.6 million Syrian war refugees that Turkey now hosts. America's out of there. It's now up to these parties to work things out.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/10/erdogan-warns-kurds-syria-ceasefire-rocky-start-191018183950579.html (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/10/erdogan-warns-kurds-syria-ceasefire-rocky-start-191018183950579.html)
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You see, even if Trump gave them a five-day notice, the Kurds would have done nothing as they are doing now. It required Turkish military operation to get the ball rolling. Even with that, the Kurds are still stalling. I don't know what's going to happen. But this is all on the two parties. Blaming Trump after 100 years of animosity between these two peoples is just nonsense.
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You see, even if Trump gave them a five-day notice, the Kurds would have done nothing as they are doing now. It required Turkish military operation to get the ball rolling. Even with that, the Kurds are still stalling. I don't know what's going to happen. But this is all on the two parties. Blaming Trump after 100 years of animosity between these two peoples is just nonsense.
Who is blaming Trump for that animosity? Did anyone even mention such a thing? Where do you get this stuff. Is there some web site where you go look up all this tortuous logic to explain Trump's bizarre behaviour?
Also, I see you managed to bury in a post the assertion that Trump is a billionaire as if it were fact.
C'mon, you call tell us, we're all friends here, who's paying you to peddle this nonsense? :)
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Who is blaming Trump for that animosity? Did anyone even mention such a thing? Where do you get this stuff. Is there some web site where you go look up all this tortuous logic to explain Trump's bizarre behaviour?
Also, I see you managed to bury in a post the assertion that Trump is a billionaire as if it were fact.
C'mon, you call tell us, we're all friends here, who's paying you to peddle this nonsense? :)
Robert, I was responding to Bart's claim that if Trump had given them more time to evacuate and settle things before pulling American troops out, the Kurds (and Turkish soldiers as well) would not have been killed. There would have been no fighting. My claim is that it would not have mattered. The Kurds would not have moved until the Turks started military action. Most people don't change their ways until they get hit over the head.
So now there's a "pause" in fighting. The Kurds and the Turks have 5 days to settle things before the killing starts again. The clock is ticking. Meanwhile, it's been a day or two and both sides have claimed the other side is violating the "pause".
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Robert, I was responding to Bart's claim that if Trump had given them more time to evacuate and settle things before pulling American troops out, the Kurds (and Turkish soldiers as well) would not have been killed. There would have been no fighting. My claim is that it would not have mattered. The Kurds would not have moved until the Turks started military action. Most people don't change their ways until they get hit over the head.
So now there's a "pause" in fighting. The Kurds and the Turks have 5 days to settle things before the killing starts again. The clock is ticking. Meanwhile, it's been a day or two and both sides have claimed the other side is violating the "pause".
The Kurdish general says they won't leave the buffer zone. The 5-day "pause" clock is still ticking. The ball is in their court. America isn't going to nation build and fight for a homeland for them. If shooting resumes, they'll have to fight for it themselves. I'd like to see them get one, but they'll have to do it without America.
https://www.npr.org/2019/10/19/771546293/kurdish-general-slams-u-s-syria-policy-gen-petraeus-calls-withdrawal-a-betrayal
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The Kurdish general says they won't leave the buffer zone. The 5-day "pause" clock is still ticking. The ball is in their court. America isn't going to nation build and fight for a homeland for them. If shooting resumes, they'll have to fight for it themselves. I'd like to see them get one, but they'll have to do it without America.
https://www.npr.org/2019/10/19/771546293/kurdish-general-slams-u-s-syria-policy-gen-petraeus-calls-withdrawal-a-betrayal
If anything, the quoted article says how big a mistake was for the Americans Trump to withdraw their 1,500 soldiers. And the caption under the picture states that it was the Turkish forces who did the shelling during the "ceasefire". By the way, AFAIK, the ceasefire was negotiated without the Kurds, and Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said that there is no ceasefire.
What did the Kurds do to you, Alan?
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If anything, the quoted article says how big a mistake was for the Americans Trump to withdraw their 1,500 soldiers. And the caption under the picture states that it was the Turkish forces who did the shelling during the "ceasefire". By the way, AFAIK, the ceasefire was negotiated without the Kurds, and Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said that there is no ceasefire.
What did the Kurds do to you, Alan?
Nothing. In fact my initial reaction was the same as yours. They're going to get hurt. Wouldn't it be great if they got their homeland. But then I ignored the usual anti-Trump headlines and gave it some thought. And reassessed my opinion about it. We can't stay in Syria for ever protecting Kurds. We have spent 18 years in Afghanistan preventing the Taliban from taking over. again. Frankly we're losing that I believe. But we're pulling out of there anyway if you haven;t yet heard. That's Trump's commitment as well. The place will collapse again into Taliban rule and people will blame us for that too. We're tired. We're broke. We've shed too much blood - ours and others. Enough already. Let others figure out their problems. Just don't come back over here. Then we'll have to go back over there.
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Nothing. In fact my initial reaction was the same as yours. They're going to get hurt. Wouldn't it be great if they got their homeland. But then I ignored the usual anti-Trump headlines and gave it some thought. And reassessed my opinion about it. We can't stay in Syria for ever protecting Kurds. We have spent 18 years in Afghanistan preventing the Taliban from taking over. again. Frankly we're losing that I believe. But we're pulling out of there anyway if you haven;t yet heard. That's Trump's commitment as well. The place will collapse again into Taliban rule and people will blame us for that too. We're tired. We're broke. We've shed too much blood - ours and others. Enough already. Let others figure out their problems. Just don't come back over here. Then we'll have to go back over there.
Pulling out of Syria and moving the troops to Iraq. Announcing a fake ceasefire by Turkey and lifting the US economic sanctions against Turkey. Exactly, what Erdogan ordered. Art Of The Deal.
All of the roughly 1,000 U.S. troops ordered to leave northeastern Syria will move to western Iraq and will conduct U.S. operations against the Islamic State extremist group from there, Defense Secretary Mark Esper said.
The Trump administration announced a full withdrawal of troops from northeastern Syria days after the Oct. 9 start of an incursion by Turkey along its southern border with Syria. Critics have said that Turkey launched its mission because officials believed President Trump greenlighted the move during an Oct. 6 phone call with his Turkish counterpart, Recep Tayyip Erdogan.
Following a day of negotiations, Vice President Mike Pence said Turkey agreed to a five-day pause in Syria to allow Kurdish forces to withdraw, and in return the U.S. would pull back on economic sanctions against Turkey.
Mr. Trump’s decision to move all U.S. troops out of Syria has met with bipartisan disapproval in Congress, where lawmakers charge that the Trump administration abandoned Kurdish fighters who were key to a series of battles that led to the collapse of the self-proclaimed Islamic State caliphate.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-troops-leaving-syria-will-be-assigned-to-iraq-defense-chief-says-11571542784
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All I can say is thank God and LuLa for that ignore button!
I've only employed it once, but it has saved my sanity regarding this site.
It's a wonderful asset: don't ignore it (n.p.i.), guys! Unless, of course, you actually enjoy banging your heads against rubber walls.
;-)
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Yes. Remain ignorant. Hit the ignore button and join the American left who believe that people with opposing views have no right to speak or be heard.
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Pulling out of Syria and moving the troops to Iraq. Announcing a fake ceasefire by Turkey and lifting the US economic sanctions against Turkey. Exactly, what Erdogan ordered. Art Of The Deal.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-troops-leaving-syria-will-be-assigned-to-iraq-defense-chief-says-11571542784 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-troops-leaving-syria-will-be-assigned-to-iraq-defense-chief-says-11571542784)
Les, The Kurds can end the fighting by withdrawing 20 miles away from the Turkish border. They have a couple of days left before the "pause" ends. Americans are out of there. They have to make their own bed.
Meanwhile, Russians have jumped into the fore. If Russians want to take over as peacekeepers, let them. They're putting their troops in-between Kurds and Turks and helping the Syrians take back their land that the Kurds over-ran and illegally occupied in the confusion of its civil war. A quarter of Syria land is in Kurdish control. Is that right? Millions of Syrian war refugees have fled to Turkey for protection.I'm sure you have similar compassion for Syrians. I'm sure you don't support Kurds taking land that doesn't belong to them any more than you supported Saddam Hussein when Iraq grabbed and occupied Kuwait. Frankly, the whole place over there is a mess. Everyone's fighting everyone else. We went there to kill ISIS not to make peace for all these quarrelling tribes. Let someone else try their hand at it.
"US is out of the Picture in Syria Turkey Crisis. Putin Now Owns the Mess"[size=78%]https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/20/middleeast/putin-now-owns-this-mess-intl/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/20/middleeast/putin-now-owns-this-mess-intl/index.html)[/size]
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The next step of ethnic cleaning, with a seal of approval from the USA. Congratulations ...
U.S., Turkey agree Ankara to primarily control Syria 'safe zone'
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-security-turkey-ceasefire-safez/u-s-turkey-agree-ankara-to-primarily-control-syria-safe-zone-idUSKBN1WW2OB
We tried to make the world Safe for Democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan. Enough. Let others pick up the banner. Maybe the Netherlands should send troops between the warring parties.
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Nonsense. The Kurds have lived in that region for ages (approx. since the 12th century).
Yes. But now they want to turn Syrian territory into their own nation. They also occupy parts of Iraq. But they are citizens of that country, not a separate nation. In Turkey, terrorist Kurds have been battling Turks. America, and Europe, have listed the Kurdish YPG arm a terrorist organization. So we'd be supporting terrorists against Turkey our NATO ally.
Frankly, I think they should have a nation. But it isn't up to America to decide and force our will on others. You'd be the first person to complain, "There goes America again. Throwing its weight around." You'd be right. The Kurds are going to have to work this out with Syria and Turkey just like they worked out an arrangement with Iraq.
Additionally, Kurds have used the Syrian civil war to expand their territory. That's in the last two years or so, not since the 12th century. The civil war has created a huge refugee problem. Millions of Syrians who lived along the Turkish border have fled into Turkey for protection, areas now occupied by Kurds. What happens to the Syrians if the Kurds keep the territory for themselves,which is their plan? Frankly, it's a mess. All these quarrelling tribes. Let's see how the Russians make out. Putin's a smart guy. We'll see just how smart he is.
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Nonsense. The Kurds have lived in that region for ages (approx. since the 12th century).
Bart, for your sanity, the button!
:-)
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Yes Bart. Press the button. Join Rob in ignorance.
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Yes. But now they want to turn Syrian territory into their own nation. They also occupy parts of Iraq. But they are citizens of that country, not a separate nation. In Turkey, terrorist Kurds have been battling Turks. America, and Europe, have listed the Kurdish YPG arm a terrorist organization. So we'd be supporting terrorists against Turkey our NATO ally.
The Turks have been invading many European countries and even India for centuries.
Additionally, Kurds have used the Syrian civil war to expand their territory. That's in the last two years or so, not since the 12th century. The civil war has created a huge refugee problem. Millions of Syrians who lived along the Turkish border have fled into Turkey for protection, areas now occupied by Kurds. What happens to the Syrians if the Kurds keep the territory for themselves,which is their plan? Frankly, it's a mess. All these quarrelling tribes. Let's see how the Russians make out. Putin's a smart guy. We'll see just how smart he is.
In the last 50 years, dozens of new nations were formed in Africa, Asia and even in Europe (see the link to a table below). Starting with Angola and ending with Zambia.
How do you justify creating a country for Kosovo with Serbian population since the Byzantine period (10th century) and given by US and EU in 2008 to Albanians, and not one for Kurds?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_date_of_formation
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The Turks have been invading many European countries and even India for centuries.
In the last 50 years, dozens of new nations were formed in Africa, Asia and even in Europe (see the link to a table below). Starting with Angola and ending with Zambia.
How do you justify creating a country for Kosovo with Serbian population since the Byzantine period (10th century) and given by US and EU in 2008 to Albanians, and not one for Kurds?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_date_of_formation
Man has been taking his neighbor's property ever since he realized he could. I'm not sure what that has to do with this situation.
Regarding Kosovo and Serbia, I think Slobodan would have a thing or two to say about that. I'll leave it to him if he wants to comment. In any case, just because America stuck it's nose in one place, doesn;t mean should stick it everywhere. Isn't that the main complaint of people around the world about us? Remember, when we take sides, one side isn't happy about it. We can't please everyone and often wind up pleasing no one. Right now, most Americans just want to be left alone in peace. Is that so hard to understand? It's the anti-Trumpers, neocons, Democrats, and Republican insiders pushing us into war. Trump frankly is a peacenik with a loud bark. He wants to get America out of the empire business, at least in areas that are unimportant to us strategically. That's why he was elected.
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That's why he was elected.
Nope. Sorry, that's not why he was elected.
He was elected because he's an excellent huckster.
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Turns out Trump didn't bring the American troops in Syria home. He has redeployed them to Iraq and Afghanistan.
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He didn't bring home troops in Europe, South Korea, Japan, and a hundred other places either. That has nothing to do with leaving troops in Syria defending Kurds and helping them nation build? It's not our job. Get over it.
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He didn't bring home troops in Europe, South Korea, Japan, and a hundred other places either. That has nothing to do with leaving troops in Syria defending Kurds and helping them nation build? It's not our job. Get over it.
You are over-analyzing it, Alan.
I suspect that the real reason for the army withdrawal was a telephone call from Turkey in which Erdogan gave him an advance notice that they are going in, and that he better gets his troups out of the trouble. Iraq seemed a convenient place to move the troups to.
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You are over-analyzing it, Alan.
I suspect that the real reason for the army withdrawal was a telephone call from Turkey in which Erdogan gave him an advance notice that they are going in, and that he better gets his troups out of the trouble. Iraq seemed a convenient place to move the troups to.
Exactly. Trump didn't want to leave American troops in the middle of a fight that was going to commence. Trump has been telling everyone for months he intended to get our troops out. Turkey has be complaining longer that they have to stop Kurdish terrorists. Trump and Erdogan were in agreement. If America stayed, we'd have to go against Turkey, our ally and commit to nation building for the Kurds which is not in American interests.
By the way, so there are no surprises, Trump is trying very hard to also get our troops out of Afghanistan even though the Taliban will probably be able to take over again. Sure there are quasi realistic peace talks going on between American, Taliban and the current Afghanistan government. Meanwhile the Taliban is getting stronger and has taken over more provinces than ever. They're talking but know that Trump wants to pull out. So they biding their time. Trump may change his mind and stay or keep a small force. But getting out of ME wars where we're in direct conflict is his plan. So when it happens, you'll hear the same old complaints from all the Neocons and Democrats how we're abandoning our allies on the battlefield. So for those nations who think that shouldn't happen, you now have plenty of time to send your own troops into Afghanistan to pick up the slack and defend the Afghans. Don't complain later.
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If America stayed, we'd have to go against Turkey, our ally and commit to nation building for the Kurds which is not in American interests.
Trump should have consulted with Dr. Oz who at one time served in Turkish army.
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Trump should have consulted with Dr. Oz who at one time served in Turkish army.
Oz, who is Turkish, is a heart specialist and researcher and still on the Board of NY Presbyterian Hospital and is the Dr. Oz of TV fame. NY Presbyterian is where I had my heart surgery. However, my cardiologist there made arrangements with a top heart surgeon to handle my case, Dr. Yoshifumi Naka, who is Japanese. https://columbiasurgery.org/yoshifumi-naka-md-phd I don;t think Naka served in the Japanese army though.
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Trump blinks to political pressure. He'll leave a couple of hundred troops in eastern Syria to fight ISIS remnants and join Kurds to protect their oil from the Russians and Syrians. We're back in the game again.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/20/world/middleeast/trump-troops-syria-turkey.html
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Looks like Kurds will withdraw from the buffer zone as other with protect the area without American involvement.
Turkey announces new deal with Russia as US says its Syria ceasefire has succeeded.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/turkey-announces-deal-russia-us-syria-ceasefire-succeeded/story?id=66444947 (https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/turkey-announces-deal-russia-us-syria-ceasefire-succeeded/story?id=66444947)
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Gold star husband: On Syria withdrawal, Trump is right
https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/24/opinions/syria-kurds-trump-withdrawal-kent/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/24/opinions/syria-kurds-trump-withdrawal-kent/index.html)
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So, after betraying it's allies, saying it has no business being in Syria, after handing over control to Russia, the USA is back ...
Eyeing oilfields, U.S. aims to reinforce position in Syria: official
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-security-usa-pentagon/eyeing-oilfields-u-s-aims-to-reinforce-position-in-syria-official-idUSKBN1X32QN
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States is committed to reinforcing its military position in Syria with additional assets to prevent oilfields from being taken over by remnants of the Islamic State militant group or others, a U.S. defense official said on Thursday.
The vacuum left by Trump’s partial withdrawal also created an opening that Russia capitalized on by moving forces into the area. U.S. officials worry that Iran-backed forces in Syria could also capitalize on the chaos.
Amid fears that Islamic State could stage a comeback, Trump said on Wednesday a small number of U.S. troops would remain in the area of Syria “where they have the oil,” a reference to oilfields in the Kurdish-controlled region.
[rethorical question]So, was ISIS defeated, or not? [/rethorical question]
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So, after betraying it's allies, saying it has no business being in Syria, after handing over control to Russia, the USA is back ...
Eyeing oilfields, U.S. aims to reinforce position in Syria: official
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-security-usa-pentagon/eyeing-oilfields-u-s-aims-to-reinforce-position-in-syria-official-idUSKBN1X32QN
[rethorical question]So, was ISIS defeated, or not? [/rethorical question]
Trump moved forces there to quiet down the political opposition to his pulling out here in America. There's no reason for us to be there defending someone else's oil. (In any case, whose oil is it? Kurs? Syrians? Iraqis?) He'll move those forces out of there first chance he gets which is the right thing to do. ISIS has no power. Whatever remnants remain are not a threat to America or frankly Europe either. Be thankful Trump took care of them for you. Remnants can be handled by remaining KURD, Russian, Iraqi, Turkish and Syrian forces. We might drop a bomb or two just to show we're still killing them. It's no longer our fight. No one here really cares about the Kurds unfortunately. Americans don't want our people bleeding there any longer. It's all about the 2020 election and knocking Trump.
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In any case, whose oil is it? Kurs? Syrians? Iraqis?
He is "protecting" oil fields located in Syria.
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It's no longer our fight. No one here really cares about the Kurds unfortunately. Americans don't want our people bleeding there any longer. It's all about the 2020 election and knocking Trump.
You are projecting your views onto everyone else. I don't recall any groundswell of support for pulling out of Syria. Quite the opposite. Even from Republicans.
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He is "protecting" oil fields located in Syria.
So who owns them? The Kurds or the Syrians. If it belongs to the Syrians, then we'll be helping the Kurds steal them. What are we doing there?
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You are projecting your views onto everyone else. I don't recall any groundswell of support for pulling out of Syria. Quite the opposite. Even from Republicans.
I haven;t seen the polls. But I think you're conflating honest feelings for the KUrds and wanting to stay in Syria. Americans I don't think want to bleed anymore in Syria, or Iraq, or...? I think if the question was asked, Would you be willing to have your son fight in Syria to help the Kurds? Or should we continue fighting in Syrian at the lost of more American soldiers, you'd get a 90% NO answer from Americans. Of course if you ask if we should help our allies the Kurds who we helped destroy ISIS, you'd get a different response. It's all how you pose the question.
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So who owns them? The Kurds or the Syrians. If it belongs to the Syrians, then we'll be helping the Kurds steal them. What are we doing there?
These happen to be the same Syrians which Trump tried to scare by unleashing 59 Tomahawks two years ago.
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These happen to be the same Syrians which Trump tried to scare by unleashing 59 Tomahawks two years ago.
So because Assad is a murderer, now it's OK for us to become thieves and steal Syrian oil for the Kurds? I know you didn;t mean that.
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No, I didn't mean that. Protecting Kurds and innocent Syrians from Turks and pro-Turkish militia would have been a noble thing to do.
Turkish-backed groups have killed nine civilians, including a female politician, in northeastern Syria, according to a human rights monitor.
Hevrin Khalaf, the Future Syria Party’s secretary-general, and her driver were ambushed and shot dead on Saturday, according to Kurdish forces.
“The nine civilians were executed at different moments south of the town of Tal Abyad,” the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/syria-turkey-kurdish-deaths-civilians-female-politician-hevrin-khalaf-future-syria-party-a9153796.html
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It seems that Trump isn't done with Syria. He's eliminated the head of ISIS. The rest of the world can now breathe easier.
TRUMP APPROVES SPECIAL OPS RAID TARGETING ISIS LEADER BAGHDADI, MILITARY SAYS HE'S DEAD
https://www.newsweek.com/trump-approves-special-ops-raid-targeting-isis-leader-baghdadi-1467982
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It seems that Trump isn't done with Syria. He's eliminated the head of ISIS. The rest of the world can now breathe easier.
TRUMP APPROVES SPECIAL OPS RAID TARGETING ISIS LEADER BAGHDADI, MILITARY SAYS HE'S DEAD
https://www.newsweek.com/trump-approves-special-ops-raid-targeting-isis-leader-baghdadi-1467982
Everyone is safe at last. ;)
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Everyone is safe at last. ;)
Well, it's not just al Baghdadi, it's that Trump eliminated ISIS territory after he became President, something the previous president was dragging his feet on. Trump had General Mattis do what he had to do to execute their demise working with our allies, mainly the Iraqis (and Kurds-added). Europeans in particular are safer from terrorist attacks inspired by ISIS. I'm not surprised you and many others here would never give him any credit. The anti-Trump media will also never give him credit. You never hear how Trump destroyed ISIS. As I write this, the anti-Trump media is knocking him regarding Syria policy even during the discussion on al Baghdadi. I just hope independents can read through all the media smoke and mirrors.
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Well, it's not just al Baghdadi, it's that Trump eliminated ISIS territory after he became President, [...]
Something he couldn't have done without the help of the Kurds.
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Something he couldn't have done without the help of the Kurds.
That's true, at least in Syria. We were partners against ISIS. Of course, ISIS was killing Kurds and invading their territory. So they needed us as well to provide air and other ground support. But we did not give the Kurds any promises to build a homeland and get involved in fighting our NATO ally Turkey to do it.
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That's true, at least in Syria. We were partners against ISIS. Of course, ISIS was killing Kurds and invading their territory. So they needed us as well to provide air and other ground support. But we did not give the Kurds any promises to build a homeland and get involved in fighting our NATO ally Turkey to do it.
Not interfering with the Kurds to build their own state in that area might be beneficial to more than one party. Why to allow it for Kosovans and not for Kurds?
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Not interfering with the Kurds to build their own state in that area might be beneficial to more than one party. Why to allow it for Kosovans and not for Kurds?
Americans are tired of nation building. It's cost us too much in blood and money. Also, it means going against Turkey, a NATO ally who we've had a 7 decade close relationship with.
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Americans are tired of nation building.
You mean like in Cambodia and Chile. ;)
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You mean like in Cambodia and Chile. ;)
Where ever. It's enough. We have to be only where it's of interest to the US. We have to be more focused. We don;t have the will or resources any longer. Our deficit this year hit its highest in 7 years at almost a trillion dollars. Reminds me of what former House Speaker Tip O'Neill said decades ago, "A billion here. A billion there. Pretty soon we're talking about real money."
https://www.apnews.com/caeb6d6c4eff45e4bc5da12db06004bc
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Reminds me of what former House Speaker Tip O'Neill said decades ago, "A billion here. A billion there. Pretty soon we're talking about real money."
Actually, it was Illinois Senator Everett McKinley Dirksen (https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/minute/Senator_Everett_Mckinley_Dirksen_Dies.htm).
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Actually, it was Illinois Senator Everett McKinley Dirksen (https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/minute/Senator_Everett_Mckinley_Dirksen_Dies.htm).
Oh. Well, a politician here or a politician there.......:)
Oh now I remember what Speaker Tip O'Neill was known for. As a Democrat, he was still able to go over to the White House by himself and meet with Republican President Reagan. They had a grand old time telling each other jokes. Not sure, but maybe downing a couple of beers together. They were able to get things done by working together. Can you imagine Speaker Pelosi downing a couple with Trump? We need more politicians today who know how to get past politics and be human.
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New York Times reports that the Baghdadi's assassination succeeded despite Trump, not thanks to him.
Trump’s Syria Troop Withdrawal Complicated Plans for al-Baghdadi Raid
President Trump’s abrupt decision to pull forces from northern Syria forced the Pentagon to press ahead with a risky night operation that killed the ISIS leader, military officials said.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/27/us/politics/baghdadi-isis-leader-trump.html
https://www.timesofisrael.com/baghdadi-assassination-succeeded-despite-trump-not-thanks-to-him-us-officials/
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Trump lying again:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/28/doubts-over-trump-dramatic-account-baghdadi-raid
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The Kurds will not have a nation because Iran, Irak, Turkey and Syria will not allow it. But they should be treated better. Better than Trump just did,
Better than Erdogan did; the Kurdish political party got some democratic share of the voters some years ago. Erdogan saw the danger and pulled the terrorist card out of hits hat and made them illegal.
I once thought in the aftermath of the second Irak war the Kurds would start a nation in the North of Irak, but that did not happen; There is a lot of oil there.
Anyway in this war against ISIS they made a large contribution to the victory and are now not considered not useful anymore to anyone, and abandoned; i wonder how many Kurds lost their life fighting ISIS.
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The Kurds will not have a nation because Iran, Irak, Turkey and Syria will not allow it. But they should be treated better. Better than Trump just did,
Better than Erdogan did; the Kurdish political party got some democratic share of the voters some years ago. Erdogan saw the danger and pulled the terrorist card out of hits hat and made them illegal.
I once thought in the aftermath of the second Irak war the Kurds would start a nation in the North of Irak, but that did not happen; There is a lot of oil there.
Anyway in this war against ISIS they made a large contribution to the victory and are now not considered not useful anymore to anyone, and abandoned; i wonder how many Kurds lost their life fighting ISIS.
They may have to make peace with their other countrymen in the countries they live in and become loyal citizens of those countries and gain political power within each of those countries. Rightfully or not, those are the situations on the ground. This has been going on since WWI.
They are integrated into Iraq along with Sunnis and Shia. Maybe they just have to be good citizens of the other countries they live in as well. In any case, it's not up to America to force our will on Turkey, Syria, Iran and elsewhere so they can have their own country.
That's something you always complain about America. That we push our weight around. So because Trump is president, you take the opposite position. That's hypocritical. It's phony. You don't care about the Kurds, only that you object to everything Trump does. If this was so important to Europeans, where were you for the last 100 years? Stop volunteering America to nation build. Shed your own blood. Spend you own money. America has lost thousand of troops and trillions of dollars fighting in the Middle East since 9-11. We're done.
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That's something you always complain about America. That we push our weight around. So because Trump is president, you take the opposite position. That's hypocritical. It's phony. You don't care about the Kurds, only that you object to everything Trump does. If this was so important to Europeans, where were you for the last 100 years? Stop volunteering America to nation build. Shed your own blood. Spend you own money. America has lost thousand of troops and trillions of dollars fighting in the Middle East since 9-11. We're done.
I think you got triggered over the word 'Trump'... not my fault...
It was about the poor position of the Kurds and nothing else.
I do care about the Kurds, and it is ' hypocritical' to say the US presence in the Middle East was and is for the sake of the Middle East...or the world or whatever...
and essentially that second Irak war was illegal and a warcrime that has costed hundred of thousands of people their lives, mostly Iraki soldiers and citizen.
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Trump lying again:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/28/doubts-over-trump-dramatic-account-baghdadi-raid
Trump glorifying the raid with lurid, fictional descriptions obtained from silent aerial footage?
Doesn't that bother the Trump supporters at all? You guys just validate that as "Trump being Trump"?
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Trump glorifying the raid with lurid, fictional descriptions obtained from silent aerial footage?
Doesn't that bother the Trump supporters at all? You guys just validate that as "Trump being Trump"?
Of course he went "whimpering, screaming, crying all the way." That's how you diminish the impact of a guy like that. Don;t you do the same thing against Trump calling him all sorts of names that are untrue: Nazi, Hitler, racist, etc. We want to diminish the aura this guy al Baghdadi had so other jerks won;t follow their group. The enemy is always diminished that way. They are caricatured. It's called war propaganda. We did it in WWII: Nips, Krauts, Japs, Fascists, etc. The fact is American forces under the command of Trump as Commander-in Chief got the guy. How about a little applause? It won't kill ya. Aren't you happy he's dead?
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Trump glorifying the raid with lurid, fictional descriptions obtained from silent aerial footage?
Doesn't that bother the Trump supporters at all? You guys just validate that as "Trump being Trump"?
Of course.........
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How about a little applause?
Sure - the dog did a great job. Trump? Did what? - apart from pose for fake pictures?
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Sure - the dog did a great job. Trump? Did what? - apart from pose for fake pictures?
That about sums it up.
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I think we beat this to death. I'm signing off to get on with life. Carry on. :)
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So life goes on. All the angst about the Kurds and the US pulling out. Just a lot of anti_Trump stuff. The Turks got their buffer zone and the Kurds make new deals as they always have in the past. Let the Russians be involved in Middle East intrigue and death. They'll get tired of it too.
Kurds In Syria Make A Deal With Russia
https://www.npr.org/2019/12/02/784225309/kurds-in-syria-make-a-deal-with-russia (https://www.npr.org/2019/12/02/784225309/kurds-in-syria-make-a-deal-with-russia)
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So life goes on. All the angst about the Kurds and the US pulling out. Just a lot of anti_Trump stuff. The Turks got their buffer zone and the Kurds make new deals as they always have in the past. Let the Russians be involved in Middle East intrigue and death. They'll get tired of it too.
Kurds In Syria Make A Deal With Russia
https://www.npr.org/2019/12/02/784225309/kurds-in-syria-make-a-deal-with-russia (https://www.npr.org/2019/12/02/784225309/kurds-in-syria-make-a-deal-with-russia)
from the linked article:
And so we're going down the highway. And on one side, there is now a collection of buildings that has a Russian flag flying. And not only the flag, there were soldiers on the roof. And the weird thing about this also is, after driving past that new Russian base, we turned down a highway and there is a U.S. convoy - armored vehicles flying the American flag because, although the numbers of U.S. forces have been reduced here, they're not entirely gone. There's still 400 to 500 of them. So it makes for a very interesting space here.
is this the end of the Cold War? Both, Russians and Americans protecting the Kurds?
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from the linked article:
is this the end of the Cold War? Both, Russians and Americans protecting the Kurds?
Protecting oil ..., and the Turks don't like it a bit.
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from the linked article:
is this the end of the Cold War? Both, Russians and Americans protecting the Kurds?
No one cares about the Kurds. Once the political attacks ended on Trump making him look like a unfeeling hard nose, everyone moved on to the next things they could attack him on. The people who cared so much about the Kurds could care less and already forgot about them. After I signed off a couple of weeks ago, no one here even bothered to post another thought on the issue until I came back and said something. It was all just a hullabaloo about getting Trump. Just like no one really cared about Russian influence, emoluments, Ukraine, etc. It's all about getting power for the left and the democrats and attacking and smearing the president to get it.
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No one cares about the Kurds. Once the political attacks ended on Trump making him look like a unfeeling hard nose, everyone moved on to the next things they could attack him on. The people who cared so much about the Kurds could care less and already forgot about them. After I signed off a couple of weeks ago, no one here even bothered to post another thought on the issue until I came back and said something. It was all just a hullabaloo about getting Trump. Just like no one really cared about Russian influence, emoluments, Ukraine, etc. It's all about getting power for the left and the democrats and attacking and smearing the president to get it.
IMHO, more people care for Kurds than for Trump.
But I care also for Trump. That's why I posted an excerpt from his November medical report that he should go on a healthier diet.
https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=132282.msg1139563#msg1139563
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IMHO, more people care for Kurds than for Trump.
But I care also for Trump. That's why I posted an excerpt from his November medical report that he should go on a healthier diet.
https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=132282.msg1139563#msg1139563
And that's a shame, because never mind Kurds, he is alienating more friends of America and Americans than anyone before him. Unless you already know some Americans, it is very easy to slip into the mistake of equating the two, America and all its citizens with Trumpian political style and stance.
Rob
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Trump unlike Obama doesn't want to be loved by the rest of the world. He's only concerned with American interests. If other's interest match ours,great. If not, well that's the way it will have to be.
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Trump unlike Obama doesn't want to be loved by the rest of the world. He's only concerned with American interests. If other's interest match ours,great. If not, well that's the way it will have to be.
I like the way you slide in the unfounded assumption that Obama wanted to be loved by the rest of the world.
Why do you confuse Twitter loud-mouthing with action?
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I like the way you slide in the unfounded assumption that Obama wanted to be loved by the rest of the world.
Why do you confuse Twitter loud-mouthing with action?
Innocence?
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And that's a shame, because never mind Kurds, he is alienating more friends of America and Americans than anyone before him. Unless you already know some Americans, it is very easy to slip into the mistake of equating the two, America and all its citizens with Trumpian political style and stance.
Rob
This makes me sad.
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I like the way you slide in the unfounded assumption that Obama wanted to be loved by the rest of the world.
Why do you confuse Twitter loud-mouthing with action?
Here's what Trump has done.
Trump Administration Accomplishments
Almost 4 million jobs created since election.
More Americans are now employed than ever recorded before in our history.
We have created more than 400,000 manufacturing jobs since my election.
Manufacturing jobs growing at the fastest rate in more than THREE DECADES.
Economic growth last quarter hit 4.2 percent.
New unemployment claims recently hit a 49-year low.
Median household income has hit highest level ever recorded.
African-American unemployment has recently achieved the lowest rate ever recorded.
Hispanic-American unemployment is at the lowest rate ever recorded.
Asian-American unemployment recently achieved the lowest rate ever recorded.
Women’s unemployment recently reached the lowest rate in 65 years.
Youth unemployment has recently hit the lowest rate in nearly half a century.
Lowest unemployment rate ever recorded for Americans without a high school diploma.
Under my Administration, veterans’ unemployment recently reached its lowest rate in nearly 20 years.
Almost 3.9 million Americans have been lifted off food stamps since the election.
The Pledge to America’s Workers has resulted in employers committing to train more than 4 million Americans. We are committed to VOCATIONAL education.
95 percent of U.S. manufacturers are optimistic about the future—the highest ever.
Retail sales surged last month, up another 6 percent over last year.
Signed the biggest package of tax cuts and reforms in history. After tax cuts, over $300 billion poured back in to the U.S. in the first quarter alone.
As a result of our tax bill, small businesses will have the lowest top marginal tax rate in more than 80 years.
Helped win U.S. bid for the 2028 Summer Olympics in Los Angeles.
Helped win U.S.-Mexico-Canada’s united bid for 2026 World Cup.
Opened ANWR and approved Keystone XL and Dakota Access Pipelines.
Record number of regulations eliminated.
Enacted regulatory relief for community banks and credit unions.
Obamacare individual mandate penalty GONE.
My Administration is providing more affordable healthcare options for Americans through association health plans and short-term duration plans.
Last month, the FDA approved more affordable generic drugs than ever before in history. And thanks to our efforts, many drug companies are freezing or reversing planned price increases.
We reformed the Medicare program to stop hospitals from overcharging low-income seniors on their drugs—saving seniors hundreds of millions of dollars this year alone.
Signed Right-To-Try legislation.
Secured $6 billion in NEW funding to fight the opioid epidemic.
We have reduced high-dose opioid prescriptions by 16 percent during my first year in office.
Signed VA Choice Act and VA Accountability Act, expanded VA telehealth services, walk-in-clinics, and same-day urgent primary and mental health care.
Increased our coal exports by 60 percent; U.S. oil production recently reached all-time high.
United States is a net natural gas exporter for the first time since 1957.
Withdrew the United States from the job-killing Paris Climate Accord.
Cancelled the illegal, anti-coal, so-called Clean Power Plan.
Secured record $700 billion in military funding; $716 billion next year.
NATO allies are spending $69 billion more on defense since 2016.
Process has begun to make the Space Force the 6th branch of the Armed Forces.
Confirmed more circuit court judges than any other new administration.
Confirmed Supreme Court Justice Neil Gorsuch and nominated Judge Brett Kavanaugh.
Withdrew from the horrible, one-sided Iran Deal.
Moved U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem.
Protecting Americans from terrorists with the Travel Ban, upheld by Supreme Court.
Issued Executive Order to keep open Guantanamo Bay.
Concluded a historic U.S.-Mexico Trade Deal to replace NAFTA. And negotiations with Canada are underway as we speak.
Reached a breakthrough agreement with the E.U. to increase U.S. exports.
Imposed tariffs on foreign steel and aluminum to protect our national security.
Imposed tariffs on China in response to China’s forced technology transfer, intellectual property theft, and their chronically abusive trade practices.
Net exports are on track to increase by $59 billion this year.
Improved vetting and screening for refugees, and switched focus to overseas resettlement.
We have begun BUILDING THE WALL. Republicans want STRONG BORDERS and NO CRIME. Democrats want OPEN BORDERS which equals MASSIVE CRIME.
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This makes me sad.
Me too; and I have the very same problem with my old party of choice, the Conservatives: I can't recognize it today. Were I still able to vote, I would have to abstain.
Rob
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Here's what Trump has done.
[...]
Wrong thread.
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Wrong thread.
I was refuting Robert's complaint.
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The Wall Street Journal reports:
"The Trump administration is considering a significant expansion of the U.S. military footprint in the Middle East, including dozens more ships, other military hardware and as many as 14,000 additional troops to counter Iran, U.S. officials said."
So much for the rationale for abandoning the Kurds to bring the boys home.
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The Wall Street Journal reports:
"The Trump administration is considering a significant expansion of the U.S. military footprint in the Middle East, including dozens more ships, other military hardware and as many as 14,000 additional troops to counter Iran, U.S. officials said."
So much for the rationale for abandoning the Kurds to bring the boys home.
The two aren't related. Trump pulled out because Turkey is an ally in NATO and considers the Kurds a danger to their country. We couldn;t support the Kurds against our ally. Now Iran is a different matter. We want them to stop causing trouble in the Middle East. They been threatening our allies there so he wants to up the protection. Whether he should or not is a different discussion. But it's not related to his Kurd decision.
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The Wall Street Journal reports:
"The Trump administration is considering a significant expansion of the U.S. military footprint in the Middle East, including dozens more ships, other military hardware and as many as 14,000 additional troops to counter Iran, U.S. officials said."
So much for the rationale for abandoning the Kurds to bring the boys home.
When policy is scat, what can you expect?
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The two aren't related. Trump pulled out because Turkey is an ally in NATO and considers the Kurds a danger to their country. We couldn;t support the Kurds against our ally. Now Iran is a different matter. We want them to stop causing trouble in the Middle East. They been threatening our allies there so he wants to up the protection. Whether he should or not is a different discussion. But it's not related to his Kurd decision.
It's all related, to oil sources and weapons sales.
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It's all related, to oil sources and weapons sales.
Well Iran did attack Saudi oil facilities recently.
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Well Iran did attack Saudi oil facilities recently.
Did they? Or was it Jemen, or ...?
And when Trump over-night pulled out the troops from the Syrian region where the Kurds live, why did he return troops after betraying the Kurds, when Russians and Syrians attempted to gain control over the oilfields in the region also called Kurdistan?
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Bart. The Dutch are welcome to build Kurdistan.
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Bart. The Dutch are welcome to build Kurdistan.
It's too crowded. Americans, Russians, Turks, Iraki, ..., paid by their taxpayers, all after the oil reserves.
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Here's why Trump pulled American troops out.
Airstrike Hits Turkish Forces in Syria, Raising Fears of Escalation
The Turkish Army suffered mass casualties in the strike, officials said, an attack that could set off a direct conflict between Turkey and Russia.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/27/world/middleeast/russia-turkey-syria-war-strikes.html
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So now I understand why Europeans really wanted America to stay on the Turkish-Syrian border. It had nothing to do with protecting the Kurds. It had to do with preventing millions of Middle Easterners from fleeing into Europe. Well, good luck.
Erdogan Says, ‘We Opened the Doors,’ and Clashes Erupt as Migrants Head for Europe
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/29/world/europe/turkey-migrants-eu.html
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So now I understand why Europeans really wanted America to stay on the Turkish-Syrian border. It had nothing to do with protecting the Kurds. It had to do with preventing millions of Middle Easterners from fleeing into Europe. Well, good luck.
Erdogan Says, ‘We Opened the Doors,’ and Clashes Erupt as Migrants Head for Europe
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/29/world/europe/turkey-migrants-eu.html
Excellent photos in that New York Times article, Alan.
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Excellent photos in that New York Times article, Alan.
I appreciate the NY Times keeping up with their photo essays. They often tell a powerful story.
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Fighting in Syria extends to the Turkish parliament. Now this is the way we should settle political arguments.
Brawl in Turkey's parliament after MP criticises Erdogan
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/03/brawl-turkey-parliament-mp-criticises-erdogan-200304162054642.html
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The remarkable thing is not the brawl, but the fact that a sitting MP dares to critize Erdogan.
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The remarkable thing is not the brawl, but the fact that a sitting MP dares to critize Erdogan.
I'm just glad America isn't up there on the border dealing with all these maniacs. The Turks, the Syrians, Assad, The Kurds, the various terrorist factions, remnants if ISIS, the Russians, etc. Who needs it? Nothing good is going to happen up there. No one gives Trump enough credit for getting us out of there. Frankly, the Europeans should get involved if they feel threatened by the refugees. It's more their problem than ours. Fortunately Trump didn't fall for the argument we're responsible to take care of the Kurds.
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Apparently, Turkey is sending a thousand troops to that Turkish/Greek border in order to prevent the Greeks from keeping their border secure, with the migrants still within Turkey.
With little love lost between those two counties, this could erupt into a mini-war of its own.
One must sympathise with Turkey, nonetheless. It is holding millions of refugees already, and its own people are sick of it, as are the Greek islanders facing the same situation.
The brutal reality is that nobody wants these people. All those pretty international agreements, resolves and moral highgrounds are cool when there is no existing situation, but quickly vanish when reality comes streaming down the country road. As ever, it's one of those problems that requires solution where it begins: at home.
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It all starts with Assad pushing its own people out of the country with the help of Russians bombers.
People flee to Turkey to save their lives and Turkey now pushes them to Europe.
In the mean time the Turkey vs Russia relations seems good.(!?)
It is a strange world, and a lot of innocent people are victim of those idiots in charge.
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It all starts with Assad pushing its own people out of the country...
It all starts with pushing Assad, a legitimately elected and internationally recognized president, out of the country.
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It all starts with pushing Assad, a legitimately elected and internationally recognized president, out of the country.
You could have said that for Saddam Hussein or Colonel G. if the spirit leaving counts for the same; who pushed out Assad? I didn't know he ever left; I thought he took over from his Dad. He'll leave when Putin says so, and not a moment before.
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It all starts with pushing Assad, a legitimately elected and internationally recognized president, out of the country.
No,
it started with non violent protest of the Syrian People... looking for more political freedom and democracy.
Try inform yourself better and see this documentary.
'For Sama' van Waad al-Kateab
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/for-sama/
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You could have said that for Saddam Hussein or Colonel G...
I could have and I did. In all three cases, you have Americans to blame.
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No,
it started with non violent protest of the Syrian People...
Please.
Who do you think instigated, encouraged, and supported those protests into armed uprising?
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Please.
Who do you think instigated, encouraged, and supported those protests into armed uprising?
It started nonviolent. Who do you think made it violent? Could it be Assad?
In the documentary it is claimed that of the 19 hospitals in Aleppo 19 were bombed. Only one survived - because it was no hospital, but used as such as a displacement.
The documentary is made by a young woman Aleppo reporter married with a doctor.
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Whoever started it, it's not America's fight to settle it.
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The Kurds survive in Syria without America's involvement or blood and money.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-security-turkey-ceasefire-idUSKBN20T2DJ
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No,
it started with non violent protest of the Syrian People... looking for more political freedom and democracy.
Try inform yourself better and see this documentary.
'For Sama' van Waad al-Kateab
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/for-sama/
Vid not available here in Mallorca for copyright reasons.
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Vid not available here in Mallorca for copyright reasons.
Happens all the time.. but it was the complete movie so
Trailer here https://youtu.be/vsvBqtg2RM0
and try a google search 'for Sama' and you get enough info..
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One must sympathise with Turkey, nonetheless. It is holding millions of refugees already
nope, it is the issue of their own doing - instead of helping their neighbor (Assad) to crush the the insurrection instigated by USA & their lackeys in Europe and Arab dictatorships they decided to support it... so they deserve the situation.
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Well, it's the refugees that are really the ones suffering as well as the people still there.
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nope, it is the issue of their own doing - instead of helping their neighbor (Assad) to crush the the insurrection instigated by USA & their lackeys in Europe and Arab dictatorships they decided to support it... so they deserve the situation.
Wow, which news channels do you follow?
;-)
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nope, it is the issue of their own doing - instead of helping their neighbor (Assad) to crush the the insurrection instigated by USA & their lackeys in Europe and Arab dictatorships they decided to support it... so they deserve the situation.
Ha!
+1
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Wow, which news channels do you follow?
Rob, you form your opinion based on TV channels!? It explains, then ;)
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Ha!
+1
So now you are with 2
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So now you are with 2
Not sure what you mean?
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Rob, you form your opinion based on TV channels!? It explains, then ;)
I form them from looking at several different ones. I observe, draw conclusions and find a broad consensus in some areas, such a shared base perhaps indicatiing the residence of truth. Local ones (opinions) are more difficult to form because of language and little-understood local tensions that I grasp only enough to realise that they exist. I read local newspapers on and off, and find them to be quite partisan - much like the folks doing politics on LuLa.
Views on Brit politics I form from being born within the ethos; it's difficult not to see what goes down. I may have a slight advantage on that score by being a bit of a mongrel, and having lived in four countries by the time I was sixteen. That certainly does free the mind a little bit, and tends to remove blind xenophobia. When you realise that some of the "foreigners" amongst whom you lived were possibly nicer folks than some of the ones you knew back home, things are ever different. The concept that whatever nationality you have is automatically the superior one is a load of crap. You have travelled a lot; you must have formed opinions on that subject too. One cannot form a valid opinion of a people by the look of their government. They can only elect - when they can do so - people who either promise them something they want or need, or by picking the least unpleasant candidate that they can find. Sadly, experience is usually overtaken by habit. But perhaps that's changing: younger people are becoming more and more reluctant to vote for anybody, seeing them more soon for the liars that they are. That's one result of broader public education.
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But perhaps that's changing: younger people are becoming more and more reluctant to vote for anybody, seeing them more soon for the liars that they are. That's one result of broader public education.
In the my life that has always been the case...I was raised to listen to as many points of view as one can stomach. very quickly you learn they ALL lie. ALL
Peter
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...they ALL lie. ALL
"All generalizations are false. Including this one."
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"All generalizations are false. Including this one."
"All generalizations are false. Including this one."
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"All generalizations are false. Including this one."
You must be right...
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"All generalizations are false. Including this one."
You must be right...