Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9   Go Down

Author Topic: Ambassadorial Leaks  (Read 17181 times)

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Ambassadorial Leaks
« Reply #120 on: July 14, 2019, 09:22:44 pm »

Why would they do that?
To eliminate sanctions. 

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8919
Re: Ambassadorial Leaks
« Reply #121 on: July 14, 2019, 09:28:07 pm »

To eliminate sanctions.

A guarantee by the USA?
Demonstrated to be worthless.

Cheers,
Bart
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Ambassadorial Leaks
« Reply #122 on: July 14, 2019, 09:44:35 pm »

A guarantee by the USA?
Demonstrated to be worthless.

Cheers,
Bart

Treaties approved by the US Senate are respected by America.    There was no Treaty with the original "deal".  Obama signed it without consent of the Senate.  America did not sign it.   If Iran had originally agreed to eliminate nukes totally, our Senate would have agreed and the issue would have been settled forever.  Think about it.  If Iran has no plans for ever obtaining nukes, why didn't they sign a more comprehensive agreement?  Obviously they planned to get the bomb in a few years when the current deal ends.  They were willing to wait to get the original sanctions lifted.  But they continue to develop when the deal ends.


So now the ball is in Iran's court. What are they going to do?  Have sanctions continue to cripple their economy?  And threaten who with a bomb if they make it now?  Will the other signatories to the original agreement accept Iran with a bomb?  After all, you didn't accept it before.  Why would you accept it now?  While you may not agree what America did, did you suddenly have a change of heart regarding a nuclear armed Iran?  What will you do if Iran wants to weaponize their nukes? 

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25122
Re: Ambassadorial Leaks
« Reply #123 on: July 15, 2019, 04:39:59 am »

Hmmm. A matter of perception.

The ambassador spat into Trump’s soup. Like with the proverbial waiter, when done in the kitchen, nobody knows, nobody cares. When done on the way to the table, with everybody seeing it, a totally different outcome. The same soup, the same taste, and yet...

No, he analysed that soup and made his professional kitchen report.

As I have maintained all along, those who leaked are the guilty.

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25122
Re: Ambassadorial Leaks
« Reply #124 on: July 15, 2019, 04:55:34 am »

Treaties approved by the US Senate are respected by America.    There was no Treaty with the original "deal".  Obama signed it without consent of the Senate.  America did not sign it.   If Iran had originally agreed to eliminate nukes totally, our Senate would have agreed and the issue would have been settled forever.  Think about it.  If Iran has no plans for ever obtaining nukes, why didn't they sign a more comprehensive agreement?  Obviously they planned to get the bomb in a few years when the current deal ends.  They were willing to wait to get the original sanctions lifted.  But they continue to develop when the deal ends.


So now the ball is in Iran's court. What are they going to do?  Have sanctions continue to cripple their economy?  And threaten who with a bomb if they make it now?  Will the other signatories to the original agreement accept Iran with a bomb?  After all, you didn't accept it before.  Why would you accept it now?  While you may not agree what America did, did you suddenly have a change of heart regarding a nuclear armed Iran?  What will you do if Iran wants to weaponize their nukes?

More than ever will they strive to be come nuclear and, thus, independent of external existential threat.

It's so bloody obvious: you will not attack a guy who has the power to kill you too. Damaged economy? Those things recover, sooner or later depending on who the next external (or internal) idiot may or may not be.

The world will only survive with peace and the acceptance that nobody has a divine right to being right. When we can compromise, share out regional tasks and possibilities, then everyone has a reason for staying put and getting on with the production of whatever his region can produce to the greater good of mankind. No good all trying to manufacture washing machines or fridges, no better that than all trying to producer grain or fruits: we need to work a system that makes us all useful as our locaton allows and interdependent, which should offer some guarantee of things staying safely stable.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8919
Re: Ambassadorial Leaks
« Reply #125 on: July 15, 2019, 05:10:16 am »

Treaties approved by the US Senate are respected by America.    There was no Treaty with the original "deal".  Obama signed it without consent of the Senate.  America did not sign it.

Help me remember, Republicans blocked most anything the Obama administration proposed. So who's to blame?

Quote
If Iran had originally agreed to eliminate nukes totally, our Senate would have agreed and the issue would have been settled forever.

And jeopardize a weapons deal with Iran's sworn adversary Saudi Arabia? Keep dreaming.

Sorry Alan, your US-centric reasoning makes little sense on the geo-political stage.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 05:25:18 am by Bart_van_der_Wolf »
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8919
Re: Ambassadorial Leaks
« Reply #126 on: July 15, 2019, 05:14:58 am »

No, he analysed that soup and made his professional kitchen report.

As I have maintained all along, those who leaked are the guilty.

Indeed, and it's going to be interesting to find the source of the leak.

Many potential leakers: Russia, UK Brexit dissidents, Bannon/Farage, Wikileaks, China, West Wing, etc.

Cheers,
Bart
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8919
Re: Ambassadorial Leaks
« Reply #127 on: July 15, 2019, 05:23:18 am »

More than ever will they strive to be come nuclear and, thus, independent of external existential threat.

Check.

Quote
It's so bloody obvious: you will not attack a guy who has the power to kill you too. Damaged economy? Those things recover, sooner or later depending on who the next external (or internal) idiot may or may not be.

Check. And it's a heaven sent for the Hawks in the Iranian leadership circles. Now they can blame the economic troubles on the USA, and a new generation of USA haters is born.

Quote
The world will only survive with peace and the acceptance that nobody has a divine right to being right. When we can compromise, share out regional tasks and possibilities, then everyone has a reason for staying put and getting on with the production of whatever his region can produce to the greater good of mankind. No good all trying to manufacture washing machines or fridges, no better that than all trying to producer grain or fruits: we need to work a system that makes us all useful as our locaton allows and interdependent, which should offer some guarantee of things staying safely stable.

Agree, although I'm not naive about to how easy this will be to achieve. It will be next to impossible in the short term, but things will get worse before they get better.

Cheers,
Bart
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Ambassadorial Leaks
« Reply #128 on: July 15, 2019, 09:24:06 am »

Help me remember, Republicans blocked most anything the Obama administration proposed. So who's to blame?

And jeopardize a weapons deal with Iran's sworn adversary Saudi Arabia? Keep dreaming.

Sorry Alan, your US-centric reasoning makes little sense on the geo-political stage.

Cheers,
Bart
You avoided answering the questions. 

Will the other signatories to the original agreement accept Iran with a bomb?  After all, you didn't accept it before.  Why would you accept it now?  While you may not agree what America did, did you suddenly have a change of heart regarding a nuclear armed Iran?  What will you do if Iran wants to weaponize their nukes?

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8919
Re: Ambassadorial Leaks
« Reply #129 on: July 15, 2019, 03:06:50 pm »

You avoided answering the questions. 

Will the other signatories to the original agreement accept Iran with a bomb?  After all, you didn't accept it before.  Why would you accept it now?  While you may not agree what America did, did you suddenly have a change of heart regarding a nuclear armed Iran?  What will you do if Iran wants to weaponize their nukes?

Our governments try to salvage what's left and make a new deal. But the US sanctions make it impossible.

So I guess the Iranians will go ahead and retaliate against the US if they think that is wise. They have a whole , or get even more cosy with the Russians. They have a whole new generation to do what they think they need to do, so no rush. Maybe we'll have to wait till 2024 for a new US president if they can find a volunteer to clean up the mess, but Iran is by then unlikely to give up their life-insurance.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 03:10:14 pm by Bart_van_der_Wolf »
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Ambassadorial Leaks
« Reply #130 on: July 15, 2019, 04:02:47 pm »

Our governments try to salvage what's left and make a new deal. But the US sanctions make it impossible.

So I guess the Iranians will go ahead and retaliate against the US if they think that is wise. They have a whole , or get even more cosy with the Russians. They have a whole new generation to do what they think they need to do, so no rush. Maybe we'll have to wait till 2024 for a new US president if they can find a volunteer to clean up the mess, but Iran is by then unlikely to give up their life-insurance.

Cheers,
Bart

If they think that suffering through such damaging sanctions is worth it, they they really had no intention of giving up the bomb in any case.  So the "deal" they signed was worthless to us. 

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25122
Re: Ambassadorial Leaks
« Reply #131 on: July 15, 2019, 04:23:36 pm »

If they think that suffering through such damaging sanctions is worth it, they they really had no intention of giving up the bomb in any case.  So the "deal" they signed was worthless to us.


Has it occurred to you just how much you are making the world hate you by insisting on being the arbiters of who will posses what, as if given some holy right to do that? Doesn't it seem obvious to you that the more you bully and attempt to manipulate, the worse it will become and the more attractive  - and essential - having nuclear weapons becomes to non-Americans?

You should have left well alone and dealt with any deal-that's-not-a-deal-because-Obama-liked-it problems as they might or might not have arisen; your government is creating problems between itself and its few remaining allies, never mind worsening the situation with those it knows already detests it.

That's why proper diplomats and political leaders are de rigueur in this world, as ever they were. Your choice of a property developer for head honcho was a massive, insane shot in the foot of everyone on this friggin' planet.

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Ambassadorial Leaks
« Reply #132 on: July 15, 2019, 04:39:23 pm »


Has it occurred to you just how much you are making the world hate you by insisting on being the arbiters of who will posses what, as if given some holy right to do that? Doesn't it seem obvious to you that the more you bully and attempt to manipulate, the worse it will become and the more attractive  - and essential - having nuclear weapons becomes to non-Americans?

You should have left well alone and dealt with any deal-that's-not-a-deal-because-Obama-liked-it problems as they might or might not have arisen; your government is creating problems between itself and its few remaining allies, never mind worsening the situation with those it knows already detests it.

That's why proper diplomats and political leaders are de rigueur in this world, as ever they were. Your choice of a property developer for head honcho was a massive, insane shot in the foot of everyone on this friggin' planet.

From your perspective, that might be true.  But Obama and many former presidents were "Gee, I hope you like us."  Trump doesn;t care about that.  He's concerned with protecting American power and its economy, just as your PM does or should for your country.  Americans have been "saps" for decades.  We provide military protection and economic help and others take advantage of that.  So now, America says "enough".  The bill's come due.  And you're not use to it.  But Trump doesn;t care if you don't like us.  He's bottom line oriented.  That may  create caustic relations at times.  But everyone knows how their bread is buttered and will respond from national interest. 

faberryman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4851
Re: Ambassadorial Leaks
« Reply #133 on: July 15, 2019, 05:29:32 pm »

To eliminate sanctions.
That didn't really work out too well with the North Koreans.
Logged

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Ambassadorial Leaks
« Reply #134 on: July 15, 2019, 05:46:40 pm »

That didn't really work out too well with the North Koreans.
Too soon to tell.  In any case, Iran isn;t NK.  Iran has huge oil exports that's being held up and other trade not moving.  NK can't feed its people without China handouts.  In NK, if people complain, you don;t see them anymore.  Iran has bigger political implications from sanctions when people complain.  We'll see what happens in both countries.  Right now Trump seems to get along better with Kim than the mullahs. 

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25122
Re: Ambassadorial Leaks
« Reply #135 on: July 15, 2019, 05:55:28 pm »

From your perspective, that might be true.  But Obama and many former presidents were "Gee, I hope you like us."  Trump doesn;t care about that.  He's concerned with protecting American power and its economy, just as your PM does or should for your country.  Americans have been "saps" for decades.  We provide military protection and economic help and others take advantage of that.  So now, America says "enough".  The bill's come due.  And you're not use to it.  But Trump doesn;t care if you don't like us.  He's bottom line oriented.  That may  create caustic relations at times.  But everyone knows how their bread is buttered and will respond from national interest.

The joys of simplistic thinking! I envy you that.

:-)

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8919
Re: Ambassadorial Leaks
« Reply #136 on: July 15, 2019, 06:13:01 pm »

Quote
The Metropolitan police’s counter-terrorism command launched a criminal investigation on Friday, and on Sunday, the Sunday Times, citing unnamed government sources, reported that a suspect had been identified and the possibility of a computer hack by a foreign state ruled out.

“They think they know who did the leaking,” the paper quoted an unnamed government source as saying. “It’s now a case of building a case that will stand up in court. It was someone with access to historical files. They went in and grabbed a range of material. It was quite crude.”
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/jul/14/suspected-leaker-of-kim-darroch-emails-identified-report

Apparently, it was some associate with a positive Brexit sentiment. Further details are forthcoming.

Cheers,
Bart
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Ambassadorial Leaks
« Reply #137 on: July 15, 2019, 06:18:00 pm »

The joys of simplistic thinking! I envy you that.

:-)
It actually is very simple.    Trump understands power and how to use it.   If you want to do business with Trump, the real estate developer, you had to be ready to get squeezed.  That's how he handles international relations.   He's always looking for an edge. He cancels the Iran deal and imposed sanctions on NK and tariffs on China.  He'll just sit back and wait until you want to make a deal when it gets painful enough.  If you want to sit back and wait, he'll outwait you.  But he harbors no ill will.  Canada made a new trade deal as did Mexico.  He's happy.  America's happy.  So are Canada and Mexico. Life goes on.  It's really not complicated. Countries and people act the same. 

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Ambassadorial Leaks
« Reply #138 on: July 16, 2019, 04:03:54 pm »

It seems "the British are vicious" according to the Iranians. I think they hate your more than they hate Trump.  Shame on you. 
"“The vicious British government committed piracy and attacked our ship,” Mr. Khamenei said. “They commit crimes and legalize it. The Islamic Republic and the believing members of the establishment will not leave such vicious acts without a response.""
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/16/world/middleeast/iran-nuclear-khamenei-shipping.html

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: Ambassadorial Leaks
« Reply #139 on: July 19, 2019, 11:14:12 pm »

It seems "the British are vicious" according to the Iranians. I think they hate your more than they hate Trump.  Shame on you. 
"“The vicious British government committed piracy and attacked our ship,” Mr. Khamenei said. “They commit crimes and legalize it. The Islamic Republic and the believing members of the establishment will not leave such vicious acts without a response.""
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/16/world/middleeast/iran-nuclear-khamenei-shipping.html

Iran has reacted by seizing British ships.  Will the UK now support the US with sanctions?  How about France, Germany, others?
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/world/2019/07/19/operator-oil-tanker-says-unable-contact-ship-strait-hormuz/45RXKgOlWj4ULMdWb9rvBL/story.html
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9   Go Up