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Author Topic: Extreme weather  (Read 207163 times)

Craig Lamson

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #2160 on: August 28, 2020, 08:56:24 pm »

At the risk of repeating myself: "meaningless rhetoric without attribution."

Try google....
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #2161 on: September 09, 2020, 08:06:42 am »

I'm surprised that a photographer would have such a troglodyte attitude, considering how remarkably fast the technological improvement of digital cameras has been since the 1980's and 1990's, and how much the cost of each new generation of digital cameras has fallen in tandem with increased efficiency and sophistication.

When I first came across this site, Michael Reichmann was praising the 3mp Canon D30 which he claimed could produce an image equal to the quality of 35mm film on an A4 size print. For prints larger than A4, 35mm film still had the edge.

I was interested, but the price was too high. I waited until the 6mp Canon D60 came out, and ever since then I've been gradually upgrading as sensor quality improved and prices fell. My latest purchase, the Nikon Z50 with the two kit lenses, is an absolute bargain, about 10x the quality and sophistication of the original Canon D30 and a fifth of the price.  ;)

If there's a will to continue developing solar technology, the degree of improvement, from this point on, could be similar to the degree of improvement in digital camera technology over the past two decades.

We all know that the sun shines intermittently in any given location, and even if it usually shines all day in the desert, it doesn't shine at night. However, there are obvious solutions which you seem to ignore. Battery storage is currently too expensive for a household to become totally self-sufficient at a reasonable price, but as battery technology develops, as digital cameras have developed, there will be a point in the future (most probably) when solar panels and solar paint, on roofs, walls and windows, in conjunction with advanced battery storage, provide very cheap and affordable energy, especially when one includes the benefit of recharging one's Electric Vehicle at no extra cost. How much does the average person spend on gasoline for their car each year?

There is also the option of including a 'Virtual Power Plant' within a suburban community of households with battery storage, where the excess power in one household is distributed to another household with a shortage of supply.

"A VPP is a collection of home solar batteries that provide on-demand battery power in order to support the electricity grid in times of need. This type of power plant helps stabilize the grid and prevent blackouts while also lowering overall electricity costs but it is typically overlooked when solutions are more broadly considered."

Another much broader solution is to connect numerous areas around the world with 'High Voltage Direct Current' transmission lines, preferably underground or accompanying long distance water pipes, or placed under the sea bed. HVDC transmission lines can transmit electricity over thousands of kilometres, with relatively little loss of energy. There are already a many such lines installed across Europe. Refer attached image from Wikipedia.

Regarding Nuclear Power, I agree that it is a viable alternative to fossil fuels, but there is a huge problem with the nuclear waste and the decommissioning of Nuclear Plants that have served their purpose. We've already discussed the future problems of recycling millions of solar panels, and that this future cost should be included in the cost of electricity generated from those solar panels.

Imagine if there were tens of thousands of nuclear power plants around the world. What would be the cost of successfully disposing of the waste without environment harm? How often would we experience a terrible disaster like Chernobyl and Fukushima?

Here's an article which addresses the problems that France faces.

"Most fuel unloaded from nuclear reactors in France is reprocessed; however, due to its excessive heat it first has to be cooled in 4m-deep ‘pools’ of water for several years.
This process generates intermediate and high-level waste.
The latter, also known as long-lived waste, is vitrified. This generates immense heat and requires the spent fuel to be cooled for several decades before it can be permanently stored and disposed of. Intermediate-level waste follows a similar treatment process.
After decades of cooling, France, like most other nuclear power generating countries, has no long-term solution in place for high and intermediate spent fuel waste disposal.
For now there is no rush at least, as Hoorelbecke says the disposal of high-level waste being produced at present will only happen around 2080, more than five to eight decades after reprocessing."


https://www.power-technology.com/features/managing-nuclear-waste-france-long-short-game/

Here's another article which addresses the problems of decommissioning.

"How much have France, Germany and UK set aside for decommissioning?
Whereas Germany has set aside €38 billion to decommission 17 nuclear reactors, and the UK Nuclear Decommissioning Authority estimates that clean-up of UK’s 17 nuclear sites will cost between €109‒250 billion over the next 120 years, France has set aside only €23 billion to decommissioning its 58 reactors. To put this in context, according to the European Commission,
Soon EDF will have to start the biggest, most complex and costliest nuclear decommissioning and radioactive waste management programme on earth."


https://energypost.eu/how-much-will-it-really-cost-to-decommission-the-aging-french-nuclear-fleet/

I hope you can see, Joe, that I have completely demolished your argument, and I hope you are honest enough to admit it.  :D

Sorry Ray, but you are pushing an impossible dream.  Probably the most damning evidence against solar and wind is from a german study publish in the last year that looks at energy return from various  sources of power vs energy put into producing those sources. 

What I mean by this if you add up all of the energy to build a plant (from mining to production to construction to usage), how many more times of energy do you get out? 

For coal, it is about 30 times more.  For hydroelectric, it is about 36 times more.  Oil and natural gas is roughly 65 and 80 times more, respectively.  Nuclear is over 200 times more. 

Wind and solar is 1.9 to 3.6 times more.  Burning coal to make electricity is, on average, 15 times more efficient. 

Now you (and others may be thinking), whats the big deal, we are still getting a positive return, so it is a good thing right?  Well, not really. 

A modern economy consumes at least 10 times more energy then the energy the economy puts into producing it.  All forms of energy but wind and solar are over that threshold.  Wind and solar are far below it, which means wind and solar acts as a leech on the system.  That is why prices skyrocket when wind and solar start becoming a sizable part of the grid. 

Now, insofar as conservation, what is your response to the fact that wind and solar farms kill large predator birds?  And don't give me the cats kill many more birds bull shit.  Cats kill small birds that reproduce in the dozens.  Large birds, being killed by these farms, reproduce much slower and will have less offspring over their course of lives. 

It is even theorized that the great decrease in insects in Germany could be caused by the drastic increase in wind turbines.  They are constantly cleaning insect bio-mass off of the blades. 

Now, in response to your point about the increases in digital camera technology and juxtaposing that with solar, we are now far past the point of deminishing returns on digital cameras, just like with solar.  Really, can you name a ground breaking advancement in image quality in the last 5 or 6 years?  Not user features, but actual IQ?  To be honest, I cant, except for acute angle response, but that is only for the benefit of an extremely small number of photographers.  Sure, there are incremental steps, but that's it, and more then likely the way it will be from now on.  Every scientist who takes a cold hard look at solar, pretty much says the same thing for it. 

Total solar efficiency increases in the last 10 years was just 2%.  That's it, even with all of the money Obama and others poored into it, only a 2% increase.  Battery tech, which you point to will only make things more expensive.  You have to convert the energy into the battery and than convert it back out, which wastes energy every time.  This is why battery tech will never be adopted, it is just too expensive even if the batteries were free, which they are not.  And not mention you have to the worse kind of mining to get the raw supplies.  What happened to conserving the environment? 

If France reduces it nuclear supply, they will see their prices rise just like Germany and CA.  CA energy prices are 6 times the national average and their emissions are not any less. 

It's a romance from high school that you still have not gotten over yet.   

The only way to make energy cheap is by having base load power sources that can produce energy on demand, and electrify the grid, on a changing basis, to the exact needs at any one time with as little energy conversions as possible.  Wind and solar cant do this. 
« Last Edit: September 09, 2020, 01:32:12 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #2162 on: September 10, 2020, 05:07:26 am »

Those suckers from Califronia. Liberals who dwell on stupid shit like climate change and eat their babies.

What a valuable contribution to the thread. If you can't do better than that, be quiet.

Jeremy
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #2163 on: September 10, 2020, 07:18:56 am »

Yeah, well, when Trump's DOE had to fly in on Sept. 6th for "the rare but drastic action" to save the day in California, I think it's pretty obvious Californians are doing something wrong.

DOE Issues Emergency Order to Alleviate California Power Crisis

You know with the information technology economy and the sudden increase in work from home, having rolling black outs will severely limit CA ability to compete in the future.  This would be especially the case for servers that have a max temperature limit of 90 degrees when it is 110+ degrees outside.  These kind of power issues are just not acceptable in a modern economy. 

CA has had a net loss of population every year over the last 10, and now with Elon Musk (probably the world's current greatest innovator) leaving, I suspect it will only get worse. 
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HSakols

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #2164 on: September 10, 2020, 10:26:02 am »

Sorry Jeremy,  I shouldn't of said that.  Here is an interesting article about myths of fire.  As I write this it is literally raining ash outside from the massive Creek Fire that is only 10 miles from Yosemite.  This may become the largest wildfire in California history. 

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20181113-five-myths-about-wildfires?fbclid=IwAR2XXNDKxMYxnXCkLfkL9vUTQnX33DYwxomww6tW9pCoazNqLEsPgAA40Ks
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #2165 on: September 10, 2020, 12:31:14 pm »

Sorry Jeremy,  I shouldn't of said that.  Here is an interesting article about myths of fire.  As I write this it is literally raining ash outside from the massive Creek Fire that is only 10 miles from Yosemite.  This may become the largest wildfire in California history. 

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20181113-five-myths-about-wildfires?fbclid=IwAR2XXNDKxMYxnXCkLfkL9vUTQnX33DYwxomww6tW9pCoazNqLEsPgAA40Ks

Scientists who specialize in forests would have issue with #3. 

How The Smokey Bear Effect Led To Raging Wildfires

Scientists blame Smokey Bear for making U.S. forests less resilient

From Smokey Bear to climate change: the future of wildland fire management

Our fire management system invariably leads managers to attempt suppression of nearly all wildland fires despite the natural, beneficial role of “good” fires. Ironically, our firefighting system is very efficient at extinguishing such “good” fires while, by default, creating the “bad” fires that have no historic precedents and create great losses.

Furthermore, if you do any kind of research into this, you'll read it takes around a 100 years, or more, for bad fire conditions to come to fruition, which could be the main reason why we did not see as many fires between 1930 and 1980.  The conditions on the ground probably were not yet at the point to produce a "crown fire," allowing us to easily extinguish them.  However, post 1980, conditions needed for crown fires have been produced by the slow gradual build up of dead branches and leaves.  #3 does not even mention this. 

On top of that, many forest scientists also suggest the increase in the number of people living in or near forests as another reason we are seeing more fires, another point #3 does not even mention.  This is similar to the fact that we have more property damage from hurricanes due to people building more in hurricane prone areas, not climate change. 
« Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 01:16:52 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Ray

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #2166 on: September 11, 2020, 10:46:17 pm »

Sorry Ray, but you are pushing an impossible dream.  Probably the most damning evidence against solar and wind is from a German study publish in the last year that looks at energy return from various  sources of power vs energy put into producing those sources. 

What I mean by this if you add up all of the energy to build a plant (from mining to production to construction to usage), how many more times of energy do you get out? 

For coal, it is about 30 times more.  For hydroelectric, it is about 36 times more.  Oil and natural gas is roughly 65 and 80 times more, respectively.  Nuclear is over 200 times more. 

Wind and solar is 1.9 to 3.6 times more.  Burning coal to make electricity is, on average, 15 times more efficient. 

Total solar efficiency increases in the last 10 years was just 2%.  That's it, even with all of the money Obama and others poured into it, only a 2% increase.   rise just like Germany and CA.  CA energy prices are 6 times the national average and their emissions are not any less. 

It's a long post, Joe, so I'll address just a few points at a time. The following 'scientific' article addresses the fall in the production cost, the increase in efficiency, and the fall in the price of solar panels between 1975 and 2012, in terms of cost and price per watt.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301421518305196?via%3Dihub

Refer attached image from the article, of a graph which shows the module costs (in orange), and the price (in purple).

Since 2012, where this graph ends, there have been further, significant reductions in manufacturing costs, although such reports I've found on the internet are from sites that are promoting the use of 'green energy' so one would expect a certain degree of bias.
However, here's one such site: https://www.pv-magazine.com/2020/06/03/solar-costs-have-fallen-82-since-2010/

"The levelized cost of energy generated by large scale solar plants is around $0.068/kWh, compared to $0.378 ten years ago and the price fell 13.1% between 2018 and last year alone, according to figures released by the International Renewable Energy Agency."

The efficiency of the conversion from light to electricity, is only one aspect of the over all increase in efficiency. One cannot have any production process which is 100% efficient. That would be equivalent to 'perpetual motion'. However, if one halves the production, installation and maintenance costs of the solar panels, over a period of time, that represent a 100% increase in the 'cost efficiency'. If one also doubles the durability of the panels over the same period of time, then that represents an increase in cost efficiency of 400% in relation to the starting point. Don't you agree?

Quote
Now, in response to your point about the increases in digital camera technology and juxtaposing that with solar, we are now far past the point of diminishing returns on digital cameras, just like with solar.  Really, can you name a ground breaking advancement in image quality in the last 5 or 6 years?  Not user features, but actual IQ?

Technology usually progresses gradually and continuously. The 8k video capability of the Canon 5R, the 5 to 8 stops of image stabilization of mirrorless cameras with IBIS used in conjunction with lens IS or VR, the lighter weight of mirrorless cameras including the lenses designed for them, the remarkable dynamic range of Nikon cameras in general, and the increase in pixel count to 45mp for 35mm full frame, and up to 32mp for Canon APS-C, might not be considered ground breaking within the last 5 or 6 years. However, if you add up all these improvements that have taken place during the last 10 to 20 years, plus many more I haven't mentioned, it's the equivalent of a massive ground-breaking improvement. Wouldn't you agree?  ;)

There are also rumors that Canon  has been developing, for some time now, a 100mp and even a 150mp 35mm full frame. That would certainly be possible, but whether or not there is a market demand for such a product is another issue.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #2167 on: September 13, 2020, 12:23:33 pm »

It's a long post, Joe, so I'll address just a few points at a time. The following 'scientific' article addresses the fall in the production cost, the increase in efficiency, and the fall in the price of solar panels between 1975 and 2012, in terms of cost and price per watt.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301421518305196?via%3Dihub

Refer attached image from the article, of a graph which shows the module costs (in orange), and the price (in purple).

Since 2012, where this graph ends, there have been further, significant reductions in manufacturing costs, although such reports I've found on the internet are from sites that are promoting the use of 'green energy' so one would expect a certain degree of bias.
However, here's one such site: https://www.pv-magazine.com/2020/06/03/solar-costs-have-fallen-82-since-2010/

"The levelized cost of energy generated by large scale solar plants is around $0.068/kWh, compared to $0.378 ten years ago and the price fell 13.1% between 2018 and last year alone, according to figures released by the International Renewable Energy Agency."

The efficiency of the conversion from light to electricity, is only one aspect of the over all increase in efficiency. One cannot have any production process which is 100% efficient. That would be equivalent to 'perpetual motion'. However, if one halves the production, installation and maintenance costs of the solar panels, over a period of time, that represent a 100% increase in the 'cost efficiency'. If one also doubles the durability of the panels over the same period of time, then that represents an increase in cost efficiency of 400% in relation to the starting point. Don't you agree?

Technology usually progresses gradually and continuously. The 8k video capability of the Canon 5R, the 5 to 8 stops of image stabilization of mirrorless cameras with IBIS used in conjunction with lens IS or VR, the lighter weight of mirrorless cameras including the lenses designed for them, the remarkable dynamic range of Nikon cameras in general, and the increase in pixel count to 45mp for 35mm full frame, and up to 32mp for Canon APS-C, might not be considered ground breaking within the last 5 or 6 years. However, if you add up all these improvements that have taken place during the last 10 to 20 years, plus many more I haven't mentioned, it's the equivalent of a massive ground-breaking improvement. Wouldn't you agree?  ;)

There are also rumors that Canon  has been developing, for some time now, a 100mp and even a 150mp 35mm full frame. That would certainly be possible, but whether or not there is a market demand for such a product is another issue.

Okay, so the cost per KWh hour is going down ... when the plant is actually producing energy.  But the majority of the time, the plant is not producing any energy.  Remember, the best solar farm in the world (insofar as what percentage of the time it is producing power) in NV only produces energy 33% of the time.  The mean 67% of the time it is sitting ideal not doing anything, but we dont get our money back that we spent on raw materials and construction during them time. 

So we need to look at the overall cost including when no energy is being produced, which is why the German study I sited showing energy return given energy used to produce is much better. 

Additionally, like I stated so many times before, the only way to produce cheap electricity is by have a modern grid with the exact amount of energy in it needed at the time with as little energy conversions as possible.  Solar can not produce energy on demand, which means you need to store the energy to retrieve it later, adding two more energy conversions and wasting energy in the process.  This greatly increases the cost without even accounting for the cost of the batteries. 

This alone makes solar a pipe dream. 

And last, what say you about the shear amount of large birds both wind and solar farms kill?  Should we just extinct eagles and hawks for your romance?
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Ray

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #2168 on: September 14, 2020, 10:03:04 am »

Okay, so the cost per KWh hour is going down ... when the plant is actually producing energy.  But the majority of the time, the plant is not producing any energy.  Remember, the best solar farm in the world (insofar as what percentage of the time it is producing power) in NV only produces energy 33% of the time.  The mean 67% of the time it is sitting ideal not doing anything, but we dont get our money back that we spent on raw materials and construction during them time. 

So we need to look at the overall cost including when no energy is being produced, which is why the German study I sited showing energy return given energy used to produce is much better. 

Additionally, like I stated so many times before, the only way to produce cheap electricity is by have a modern grid with the exact amount of energy in it needed at the time with as little energy conversions as possible.  Solar can not produce energy on demand, which means you need to store the energy to retrieve it later, adding two more energy conversions and wasting energy in the process.  This greatly increases the cost without even accounting for the cost of the batteries. 

This alone makes solar a pipe dream. 


C'mon now, Joe. Surely you know that the sun has always shined on our planet 24 hours a day if one includes the numerous different locations on our planet at any given time.

I mentioned in a previous post the benefits of High Voltage Direct Current (HVDC) transmission which is a much more efficient method of transmitting power over long distances than High Voltage Alternating Current.

The following article addresses the situation.
https://www.powermag.com/benefits-of-high-voltage-direct-current-transmission-systems/

“AC systems have lower capital costs, but a much steeper line slope as you increase the distance. Along the length, they need compensation, especially at high voltages, because they require what we call VAR [volt-ampere reactive] support.” “HVDC systems have a much higher capital cost, but as the distance increases the slope of the line is flatter. So, there is a point where these two lines intersect, and that’s your break-even point—that’s a function of distance, voltage, and power transfer.”

"You can also run longer DC lines underground. So, there can be a big advantage to DC where permitting and visual impact is a concern.”


If we combine the long-distance transmission benefits of HVDC with advanced battery storage, which will inevitably improve as technology progresses, then it's technologically feasible and cost-effective to power the entire world economy on solar power alone.

However, I do understand that there are always major, initial, costs involved when a society changes a paradigm. The installation of hundreds of thousands of kilometres of under-sea and underground HVDC cables is a very expensive initial capital cost, and that initial cost can be a major obstacle, which is why this paradigm shift from fossil fuels to renewables will take, and should take, a long time.

Since I'm not at all worried about the climate consequences of minuscule amounts of CO2 in the atmosphere, I don't care how long it takes, as long as we continue to make progress. The source of energy from fossil fuels is always a major expense involving the mining, storage and transporting of the coal and oil. However, the source of energy from the sun, and its transportation, is totally free.  ;)

Quote
And last, what say you about the shear amount of large birds both wind and solar farms kill?  Should we just extinct eagles and hawks for your romance?

Probably not as serious an issue as the oils spills that affect the life in the oceans, the accidents that coal miners sometimes experience, as well as the lung problems due to coal dust, and of course the terrible conditions that prevail in undeveloped countries that mine the various metals used in solar panels and batteries, often involving the employment of under-aged children.

Environmental issues related to toxic waste and a lack of recycling, has always been a problem throughout the world, and this will continue to be an increasing problem in the future if it is not addressed.

Solar panels and batteries must be recycled after they have served their purpose, and how to do this efficiently should be the subject of further research, and appropriate regulations enforced.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #2169 on: September 14, 2020, 05:47:44 pm »

There is a report of damage accelerating in two major Antarctic glaciers.  It is published in the Proceedings of the National Academies of Science:  https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/09/08/1912890117  The investigators do not predict what this might mean for sea level rise but that it is worrying as glaciers lose stability pieces can break off and lead to melting.  The paper has some nice images and graphs.
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Ray

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #2170 on: September 15, 2020, 05:06:39 am »

There is a report of damage accelerating in two major Antarctic glaciers.  It is published in the Proceedings of the National Academies of Science:  https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/09/08/1912890117  The investigators do not predict what this might mean for sea level rise but that it is worrying as glaciers lose stability pieces can break off and lead to melting.  The paper has some nice images and graphs.

If the glaciers slip into the sea, it will be an opportunity for Australia and other countries to tow the icebergs to their coastline for irrigation purposes.  ;)

Regarding the amount of sea ice around the Antarctic, it fluctuates according to the seasons, with the minimum occurring during the Southern Hemisphere summer in February. During the past 40 years, the lowest level was in 2017. The minimum level has been rising since then, during the summer peak. Nothing to worry about, Alan, unless one is suffering from OCD.  ;D

Refer attached graph.

"As it does in the Arctic, the surface of the ocean around Antarctica freezes over in the winter and melts back each summer. Antarctic sea ice usually reaches its annual maximum extent in mid- to late September, and reaches its annual minimum in late February or early March. The 2020 minimum extent (February 20–21, 2020) was below the 1981–2010 climatological average but well above the record low recorded in 2017."

"Since satellite-based measurements began in the late 1970s, Antarctic sea ice extent has shown high year-to-year variability. The overall trend is nearly flat."


https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/understanding-climate-antarctic-sea-ice-extent
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #2171 on: September 15, 2020, 08:45:54 am »

If the glaciers slip into the sea, it will be an opportunity for Australia and other countries to tow the icebergs to their coastline for irrigation purposes.  ;)
This is not a new idea as I saw some papers on this back in the early 1980s.  The did a cost analysis considering the energy needed to move the ice as well as how much would be lost to melting during transit.  It was not an economically viable proposition for the US but given the closeness of Australia, it just might be!
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faberryman

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #2172 on: September 15, 2020, 12:40:31 pm »

Following Trump's news conference yesterday, the National Review posted an editorial promoting forest management as the way to control forest fires in California. Last time I saw a figure for the devastation so far is 3.3 million acres burned. Has anyone calculated the number of people and time frame required, and the total cost of clearing brush from 3.3 million acres? From all of the forest area in California, Oregon, and Washington? I am trying to get a feel for the size and scope of the suggested project. I have been to several of the national and state parks in California and it sure looks like a big job.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/09/california-forest-mismanagement-a-disaster/#slide-1
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 04:02:28 pm by faberryman »
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TechTalk

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #2173 on: September 15, 2020, 02:49:08 pm »

Longtime Climate Science Denier Hired At NOAA

David Legates, a University of Delaware professor of climatology who has spent much of his career questioning basic tenets of climate science, has been hired for a top position at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.

Neither Legates nor NOAA representatives responded to questions about Legates' specific responsibilities or why he was hired. The White House also declined to comment.

In 2007, Legates was one of the authors of a paper that questioned previous findings about the role of climate change in destroying the habitat of polar bears. That research was partially funded by grants from Koch Industries, the American Petroleum Institute lobbying group and ExxonMobil, according to InsideClimate News.

Legates also appeared in a video pushing the discredited theory that the sun is the cause of global warming. In testimony before the U.S. Senate in 2014, Legates argued that a climate science report by the U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change erroneously stated that humans are causing global warming.

Legates is a professor in the Department of Geography and Spatial Sciences at the University of Delaware. He is also affiliated with the Heartland Institute, a think tank that has poured money into convincing Americans that climate change is not happening and that the scientific evidence — including evidence published by the agency that now employs Legates — is uncertain or untrustworthy.

Advocates who reject mainstream climate science, such as those at Heartland, have had a leading role in shaping the Trump administration's response to global warming, including the decision to exit the Paris climate accord.

But climate researchers slammed NOAA's decision to appoint Legates to a key scientific position.

"He's not just in left field — he's not even near the ballpark," says Jane Lubchenco, a professor of marine biology at Oregon State University and head of NOAA under President Barack Obama.

Contrarians in science are welcome, Lubchenco says, but their claims have to be scientifically defensible. That's why official groups like the U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change review the entire range of scientific research before reaching a conclusion.

Over the last 20 years, in his work and public statements, Legates has rejected the overwhelming peer-reviewed research that shows human activity is the main driver of a dangerously changing climate.

Michael Mann, professor of atmospheric science at Pennsylvania State University, says in an email to NPR that Legates has, throughout his career, "misrepresented the science of climate change, serving as an advocate for polluting interests as he dismisses and downplays the impacts of climate change."

Mann adds: "At a time when those impacts are playing out before our very eyes in the form of unprecedented wildfires out West and super-storms back East, I cannot imagine a more misguided decision than to appoint someone like Legates to a position of leadership at an agency that is tasked with assessing the risks we face from extreme weather events."

More at...

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/12/longtime-climate-science-denier-hired-at-noaa
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #2174 on: September 15, 2020, 04:33:32 pm »

C'mon now, Joe. Surely you know that the sun has always shined on our planet 24 hours a day if one includes the numerous different locations on our planet at any given time.

I mentioned in a previous post the benefits of High Voltage Direct Current (HVDC) transmission which is a much more efficient method of transmitting power over long distances than High Voltage Alternating Current.

The following article addresses the situation.
https://www.powermag.com/benefits-of-high-voltage-direct-current-transmission-systems/

“AC systems have lower capital costs, but a much steeper line slope as you increase the distance. Along the length, they need compensation, especially at high voltages, because they require what we call VAR [volt-ampere reactive] support.” “HVDC systems have a much higher capital cost, but as the distance increases the slope of the line is flatter. So, there is a point where these two lines intersect, and that’s your break-even point—that’s a function of distance, voltage, and power transfer.”

"You can also run longer DC lines underground. So, there can be a big advantage to DC where permitting and visual impact is a concern.”


If we combine the long-distance transmission benefits of HVDC with advanced battery storage, which will inevitably improve as technology progresses, then it's technologically feasible and cost-effective to power the entire world economy on solar power alone.

However, I do understand that there are always major, initial, costs involved when a society changes a paradigm. The installation of hundreds of thousands of kilometres of under-sea and underground HVDC cables is a very expensive initial capital cost, and that initial cost can be a major obstacle, which is why this paradigm shift from fossil fuels to renewables will take, and should take, a long time.

Since I'm not at all worried about the climate consequences of minuscule amounts of CO2 in the atmosphere, I don't care how long it takes, as long as we continue to make progress. The source of energy from fossil fuels is always a major expense involving the mining, storage and transporting of the coal and oil. However, the source of energy from the sun, and its transportation, is totally free.  ;)

Probably not as serious an issue as the oils spills that affect the life in the oceans, the accidents that coal miners sometimes experience, as well as the lung problems due to coal dust, and of course the terrible conditions that prevail in undeveloped countries that mine the various metals used in solar panels and batteries, often involving the employment of under-aged children.

Environmental issues related to toxic waste and a lack of recycling, has always been a problem throughout the world, and this will continue to be an increasing problem in the future if it is not addressed.

Solar panels and batteries must be recycled after they have served their purpose, and how to do this efficiently should be the subject of further research, and appropriate regulations enforced.

You are still not addressing the heart of the issue that I mentioned a couple times. 

We need at least 10 times the amount of energy produced than what we put into producing it for our economy to thrive. 

Solar and wind gives us just a 1.9 to 3.6 return. 

It's a pipe dream, that's it.  That's why CA cant provide the amount of energy it needs, why they had to implement rolling blackouts and why they are extending the shut down of other types of plants.  It will never work. 

Nuclear is the only option to get us off of fossil fuels. 


But anyway, it great to see you guys go full on paganism with your climate change rhetoric over the last few days.  It's amazing how climate change can be used as cover for all of the left's incompetence, such as horrible forest management.   
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 04:36:33 pm by JoeKitchen »
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HSakols

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #2175 on: September 15, 2020, 05:03:48 pm »

Quote
But anyway, it great to see you guys go full on paganism with your climate change rhetoric over the last few days.  It's amazing how climate change can be used as cover for all of the left's incompetence, such as horrible forest management.   

Joe, we embrace and love you as well.  Sorry, this is about someone who is just not an authority on the statements he makes. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3foXJfWlgoM
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 05:12:41 pm by HSakols »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #2176 on: September 15, 2020, 05:11:20 pm »

Joe, we embrace and love you as well.  Sorry, this is about someone who is just not an authority on the statements he makes. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3foXJfWlgoM

LOL Hugh!  Neither are you, yet you write on the subject here as well.  However, at least I dont give into religious fervor that forces me to blame everything on the almighty boogie man Climate change, while ignoring everything else.

How about Standford University, are they out of their element? 

Setting fires to avoid fires: Stanford study outlines approaches to enable more prescribed burns

"To put a meaningful dent in wildfire numbers, California needs fuel treatments – whether prescribed burns or vegetation thinning – on about 20 million acres or nearly 20 percent of the state’s land area, according to the researchers."

Another in peer reviewed journal Nature Sustainability. 

Barriers and enablers for prescribed burns for wildfire management in California

But keep on pushing your Climate Change paganism and ignoring actual science Hugh.  By the way, what was the scientific credentials on the article you posted earlier from the BBC?  I don't remember the BBC being peer reviewed or associated with an accredited university. 
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 05:28:21 pm by JoeKitchen »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #2177 on: September 15, 2020, 05:26:18 pm »

Just to point out the goofy logic of the left's solution to controlling forest fires through climate change mitigation, all available science shows that any efforts we take to control climate change (no matter how draconian) will not result in the earth cooling.  Regardless of what we do, the earth will continue to increase in temperature, albeit perhaps slower.  And even if we did do the most draconian corse of action, it still would take a 100 years for us to feel the effects of it. 

So, how does this help us now?

Regardless of what we do, the temperatures will continue to increase, making the problem worse (according to the left) for at least a 100 years, more then enough time to burn CA to a crisp, twice.

Given that unavoidable conclusion, what is wrong with controlled burns and doing something today that would help that all specialists in the field agree on? 
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 05:30:37 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Chris Kern

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #2178 on: September 15, 2020, 05:27:23 pm »

Andy Borowitz, satirist-in-chief of The New Yorker, reports that a renowned stable genius has developed a remarkably clever way to deal with global warming.

Quote
Blasting “dumb scientists for not thinking of this before,” Donald J. Trump said that the planet would cool down “right away” if everyone would just turn on the air-conditioning.

HSakols

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #2179 on: September 15, 2020, 05:31:33 pm »

Post one peer reviewed paper from a scientific journal. 
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