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Author Topic: The American Constitution  (Read 99405 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #2100 on: September 29, 2019, 04:30:59 pm »

Fascists are by definition right wing...

Like National-Socialist? Or that is just Nazis, not fascists? Nomen est omen.

Rob C

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #2101 on: September 29, 2019, 04:51:23 pm »

Like National-Socialist? Or that is just Nazis, not fascists? Nomen est omen.

According to my dictionary, it's the preserve of right-wing politics.

"When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that's all.”

Rob

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #2102 on: September 29, 2019, 05:22:47 pm »

According to my dictionary, it's the preserve of right-wing politics...

Call it right or left, it was a Socialist Workers Party. If it makes people feel better, I can replace "fascist" in the OP with "Soviet" or "Communist." Better? Attack on the freedom of speech and fierce penalties for going against the party line is common to both.

Jeremy Roussak

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #2103 on: September 29, 2019, 06:02:11 pm »

Fascists are by definition right wing. You need to find a different label for liberals.

Hmm. Merriam Webster definition:

a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

Seems to fit those rabidly right-wing regimes in Stalinist Russia and Maoist China pretty damn well.

Jeremy
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kers

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #2104 on: September 29, 2019, 07:14:21 pm »

Hmm. Merriam Webster definition:

a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

Seems to fit those rabidly right-wing regimes in Stalinist Russia and Maoist China pretty damn well.

Jeremy
It misses most of the important 'Race' ingredient that defined the übermensch in the case of Germany - the Ariër type of human as the type that  was looked at as the supreme human race. In Russia especially and Mao's China the oppression was mostly about (maintaining) power, not so much about race. Oppression was aimed at the native Russian cq Chinese people.
Looking at present China we see the oppression of other races and cultures as the Tibetian, the re-education camps for Uighurs, Kazach and other Islamic minorities. ( and Hong Kong?)
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 07:18:14 pm by kers »
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Pieter Kers
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #2105 on: September 29, 2019, 07:34:55 pm »

Hmm. Merriam Webster definition...

The current wikipedia definition incorporates much of the MW definition, but adds words "right-wing" to it. Given how wikipedia entries are created, one can easily guess the political orientation of the author.

I see fascism as a rather historic term, limited to a handful of examples in a short historic period of time. From that perspective, I probably should not have used the term in my OP. However, as you rightly noted, Jeremy, it does share a number of characteristics with Soviet and Mao socialism/communism.

The current ideological spectrum has rather evolved, to the point that old, historic definitions are quite blurred and not easily applicable. One of the textbook criteria to distinguish, historically, fascism from communism was the ownership of the means of production. In the Soviet/Mao systems, they are state-owned, not private. Fascism, historically, was based on private ownership, often referred to as corporatism. Another common (to both systems) criterion is one-party system or dictatorship.

Fast forward. China has a one-party, communist dictatorship, but, as of recently, a purely capitalist economy. Which would make it a modern version of fascism, I suppose. NY and CA have nominally multi-party systems and capitalist economies, but with such a majority of one party that makes one wonder if it is, in effect, a single-party dictatorship. Which would make them a modern version of fascism. Or Chinese-style communism.

Alan Klein

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Rob C

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #2107 on: September 30, 2019, 05:08:43 am »

The current wikipedia definition incorporates much of the MW definition, but adds words "right-wing" to it. Given how wikipedia entries are created, one can easily guess the political orientation of the author.

I see fascism as a rather historic term, limited to a handful of examples in a short historic period of time. From that perspective, I probably should not have used the term in my OP. However, as you rightly noted, Jeremy, it does share a number of characteristics with Soviet and Mao socialism/communism.

The current ideological spectrum has rather evolved, to the point that old, historic definitions are quite blurred and not easily applicable. One of the textbook criteria to distinguish, historically, fascism from communism was the ownership of the means of production. In the Soviet/Mao systems, they are state-owned, not private. Fascism, historically, was based on private ownership, often referred to as corporatism. Another common (to both systems) criterion is one-party system or dictatorship.

Fast forward. China has a one-party, communist dictatorship, but, as of recently, a purely capitalist economy. Which would make it a modern version of fascism, I suppose. NY and CA have nominally multi-party systems and capitalist economies, but with such a majority of one party that makes one wonder if it is, in effect, a single-party dictatorship. Which would make them a modern version of fascism. Or Chinese-style communism.

Mine, in the computer is the COED.

jeremyrh

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #2108 on: September 30, 2019, 08:04:37 am »

NY and CA have nominally multi-party systems and capitalist economies, but with such a majority of one party that makes one wonder if it is, in effect, a single-party dictatorship. Which would make them a modern version of fascism. Or Chinese-style communism.

I'd say that a taxonomy that can't distinguish between California, China and Nazi Germany is not particularly useful.
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faberryman

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #2109 on: September 30, 2019, 08:11:24 am »

I'd say that a taxonomy that can't distinguish between California, China and Nazi Germany is not particularly useful.
Or perhaps those applying the taxonomy are misusing it.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2019, 08:14:41 am by faberryman »
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Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #2110 on: October 01, 2019, 07:50:35 pm »

The current wikipedia definition incorporates much of the MW definition, but adds words "right-wing" to it. Given how wikipedia entries are created, one can easily guess the political orientation of the author.

I see fascism as a rather historic term, limited to a handful of examples in a short historic period of time. From that perspective, I probably should not have used the term in my OP. However, as you rightly noted, Jeremy, it does share a number of characteristics with Soviet and Mao socialism/communism.

The current ideological spectrum has rather evolved, to the point that old, historic definitions are quite blurred and not easily applicable. One of the textbook criteria to distinguish, historically, fascism from communism was the ownership of the means of production. In the Soviet/Mao systems, they are state-owned, not private. Fascism, historically, was based on private ownership, often referred to as corporatism. Another common (to both systems) criterion is one-party system or dictatorship.

Fast forward. China has a one-party, communist dictatorship, but, as of recently, a purely capitalist economy. Which would make it a modern version of fascism, I suppose. NY and CA have nominally multi-party systems and capitalist economies, but with such a majority of one party that makes one wonder if it is, in effect, a single-party dictatorship. Which would make them a modern version of fascism. Or Chinese-style communism.
NYC wants to send you to jail if you say things they don't like.  Why do we need free speech in the media capital of America anyway?
https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/01/us/nyc-illegal-alien-discrimination-guidance/index.html

Robert Roaldi

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #2111 on: October 01, 2019, 10:07:53 pm »

Well, Trump wants to shoot people in the legs to slow them down https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/463928-trump-suggested-shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-nyt. I sincerely hope this turns out to be fabrication.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #2112 on: October 01, 2019, 10:24:11 pm »

Well, Trump wants to shoot people in the legs to slow them down https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/463928-trump-suggested-shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-nyt. I sincerely hope this turns out to be fabrication.

Certainly interesting and not something I would put below Trump. 

However, with all of the stories the NYT has botched recently (like the recent Kavanaugh debacle), I no longer have the confidence in them as I once did. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #2113 on: October 01, 2019, 10:29:37 pm »

Well, Trump wants to shoot people in the legs to slow them down https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/463928-trump-suggested-shooting-migrants-in-the-legs-nyt. I sincerely hope this turns out to be fabrication.
Well, Democrats have called for Trump to be jailed in solitary confinement and hung for treason.  So shooting a couple of Democrats, ah, I mean illegals in the legs seems reasonable. 

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #2114 on: October 01, 2019, 10:35:27 pm »

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #2115 on: October 02, 2019, 06:20:33 pm »

It seems China isn't the only ones screwing the US.  And no one can blame Trump for this one.

"WTO Says U.S. Can Hit EU With $7.5 Billion In Tariffs Over Airbus Subsidies"
https://www.npr.org/2019/10/02/766404561/wto-says-u-s-can-hit-eu-with-7-5-billion-in-tariffs-over-airbus-subsidies

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #2116 on: October 02, 2019, 06:27:31 pm »

Bernie Sanders had emergency heart surgery today- two stents were added to his coronary arteries.  This makes it more likely Warren will have more people in her corner than Biden as Sanders and Warren are both on the far left of their party.

The Ukraine impeachment issue is going to hurt Biden as well as people learn of his involvement with his son.   I think Trump has an easier path to victory in 2020 against Warren.  So getting rid of Biden seems logical.  I wonder if Trump didn't file the whistleblower report himself?

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #2117 on: October 02, 2019, 06:46:44 pm »

It seems China isn't the only ones screwing the US.  And no one can blame Trump for this one.

"WTO Says U.S. Can Hit EU With $7.5 Billion In Tariffs Over Airbus Subsidies"
https://www.npr.org/2019/10/02/766404561/wto-says-u-s-can-hit-eu-with-7-5-billion-in-tariffs-over-airbus-subsidies

And Europe will hit the USA in Tarifs over Boeing subsidies ..., nothing solved.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #2118 on: October 02, 2019, 06:49:04 pm »

Well, Democrats have called for Trump to be jailed in solitary confinement and hung for treason.

Have they?
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LesPalenik

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #2119 on: October 02, 2019, 07:08:59 pm »

Bernie Sanders had  emergency heart surgery today- two stents were added to his coronary arteries.  This makes it more likely Warren will have more people in her corner than Biden as Sanders and Warren are both on the far left of their party.


Could be a result of his choice of food. Apparently, he likes grilled meat.
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