The American Constitution

[Alan Klein]

You mean we get your permission to have our own Nuclear warheads?

France and Great Britain have nukes.  Why not have a EU NATO without America?  You don't need us. Be proud.  Br strong?  Be independent?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

How is this possible in the wonderful world of socialized medicine?

[Peter McLennan]

How is this possible in the wonderful world of socialized medicine?

Easy.  Politicians of all stripes have a knack for effing up everything for their own personal gain.

I’ll say it again here because Slobodan brought it up and because it’s true. 

1) America is alone in western democracies to not offer “socialized” (ie universal) medical care to her citizens.
2) Americans pay substantially more money for substantially worse medical outcomes than any of those western democracies.

[Alan Klein]

Easy.  Politicians of all stripes have a knack for effing up everything for their own personal gain.

I’ll say it again here because Slobodan brought it up and because it’s true. 

1) America is alone in western democracies to not offer “socialized” (ie universal) medical care to her citizens.
2) Americans pay substantially more money for substantially worse medical outcomes than any of those western democracies.

1.  About half the costs are paid by the government -Federal and States.  There are 150 million Americans on private health insurance.  Most of them want to keep their private health plans

2.  What are the metrics used to compare?  Many rich foreigners come to America if they need important surgery.  Comparing mortality rates is erroneous as we have higher death due to guns and drugs.  It doesn;t mean health care is worse.  We also have a larger underclasses that don't  follow up with proper care or take care of themselves.  We tend to eat fast foods and are overweight.  That brings down how long we live and increases sicknesses and successful outcomes.  AGain, that has nothing to do with health care.  You're making a causal effect and it isn't there because the left wants to convince Americans to go with nationalized care.  Most smaller countries are more homogenous in genes and culture unlike America with 200 cultures and ancestors spread across a continent and a half.  If you take out the underclasses, most Americans do better than others.   But again, people mix health care with longevity and they';re not the only statistic that should count.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Easy.  Politicians of all stripes have a knack for effing up everything for their own personal gain...

Exactly. And somehow, magically, that would NOT happen if the US goes for socialized medicine?

[Peter McLennan]

Exactly. And somehow, magically, that would NOT happen if the US goes for socialized medicine?

I think that it’s antisocial and immoral for people to seek profit from others’ misfortune.  Nobody should suffer financial ruin because they get sick.

The fact remains, despite Alan’s attempts to distract, in all other western democracies, universal healthcare is working better than the American system.

If Americans want to continue to spend more for less, fine.  Their decision.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... in all other western democracies, universal healthcare is working better than the American system...

I see:

[faberryman]

Common sense advice would be not to get drunk. More common sense advice in the US would be not to go to the emergency room for a hangover:

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/09/19/749039963/the-real-bachelor-party-hangover-a-12-460-er-bill

Russ, you need to alert your Canadian snowbird friends.

[Alan Klein]

I think that it’s antisocial and immoral for people to seek profit from others’ misfortune.  Nobody should suffer financial ruin because they get sick.

The fact remains, despite Alan’s attempts to distract, in all other western democracies, universal healthcare is working better than the American system.

If Americans want to continue to spend more for less, fine.  Their decision.

Why should everyone have to do things the same way? Should we all shoot a Canon?  Maybe we can learn something from you and you can learn something fron us.  Maybe both systems have good and bad situations.   Maybe there's an approach that works best in the middle. 

[Alan Klein]

Common sense advice would be not to get drunk. More common sense advice in the US would be not to go to the emergency room for a hangover:

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/09/19/749039963/the-real-bachelor-party-hangover-a-12-460-er-bill

Russ, you need to alert your Canadian snowbird friends.

the headline of that article is fake news. You have to dig down into the article see what the real costs were

"For Fischer, the negotiated rates under his health plan knocked the $12,460 bill down to $4,694. The plan paid $2,102. That left Fischer with a bill of $2,593, an amount he says he cannot afford to pay."

[faberryman]

the headline of that article is fake news. You have to dig down into the article see what the real costs were

"For Fischer, the negotiated rates under his health plan knocked the $12,460 bill down to $4,694. The plan paid $2,102. That left Fischer with a bill of $2,593, an amount he says he cannot afford to pay."

For Russ’s snowbirds and anyone else without insurance, the bill would have been $12,460. I’m having a hard time with $2593 as a reasonable co-pay for someone with insurance, but maybe for you that sounds about right.

[Peter McLennan]

Why should everyone have to do things the same way? Should we all shoot a Canon?

Sigh.

Yes, we can all learn from each other.  The rest of the western democracies can learn from America how not to do health care.

I posted this link elsewhere and you ignored it, Alan.  Perhaps you'd like to comment here?

https://www.jhsph.edu/news/news-releases/2019/us-health-care-spending-highest-among-developed-countries.html

Found from this search term: "american health care compared to other countries"

[Alan Klein]

Sigh.

Yes, we can all learn from each other.  The rest of the western democracies can learn from America how not to do health care.

I posted this link elsewhere and you ignored it, Alan.  Perhaps you'd like to comment here?

https://www.jhsph.edu/news/news-releases/2019/us-health-care-spending-highest-among-developed-countries.html

Found from this search term: "american health care compared to other countries"

I don't want government in my business. 

[Alan Klein]

I don't want government in my business.  I'd rather pay more and be able to pick the doctors I want.  RIght now, because I'm a senior, I have to be on Medicare, government provided health care. There are doctors I want to use.  But they opted out of Medicare so I can;t afford to pay them out of pocket.  SO my medical care is not as good with government provided health care.  That wouldn't happen if I was still younger on private health care. 

This is what happens when government takes over.  Government wants to control everything.  Your health care. Your retirement account (Social Security). What cars you can buy.  What doctors you can use.  What light bulbs you have to use.  What fuels?  What you can say (free speech like hijabs).  Where in public you can shoot your camera. There's a constant erosion of your liberty. 

[Peter McLennan]

I don't want government in my business.

Right.  As in the oft-repeated-here and favourite right-wing epithet: I'm from the government and I'm here to help"

[faberryman]

I don't want government in my business.  I'd rather pay more and be able to pick the doctors I want.  RIght now, because I'm a senior, I have to be on Medicare, government provided health care. There are doctors I want to use.  But they opted out of Medicare so I can;t afford to pay them out of pocket.  SO my medical care is not as good with government provided health care.  That wouldn't happen if I was still younger on private health care. 

This is what happens when government takes over.  Government wants to control everything.  Your health care. Your retirement account (Social Security). What cars you can buy.  What doctors you can use.  What light bulbs you have to use.  What fuels?  What you can say (free speech like hijabs).  Where in public you can shoot your camera. There's a constant erosion of your liberty.

Why don't you just number your complaints.  That way you could just post a number instead of posting your complaint over and over again. It would save you from having to retype them and we wouldn't have to read them ad nauseam.

[Peter McLennan]

I'd rather pay more and be able to pick the doctors I want.  SO my medical care is not as good with government provided health care.  That wouldn't happen if I was still younger on private health care. 

I can pick precisely the doctors I want to use.  Our doctors don't "opt out".  That's why its called "universal" health care.

If you get sick, I help to pay your expenses.  Willingly.  Cheerfully.

As we've repeated over and over: nobody should suffer financial ruin because they get sick".

Get it?

[Alan Klein]

I can pick precisely the doctors I want to use.  Our doctors don't "opt out".  That's why its called "universal" health care.

If you get sick, I help to pay your expenses.  Willingly.  Cheerfully.

As we've repeated over and over: nobody should suffer financial ruin because they get sick".

Get it?

No one is suggesting that people don;t get medical care.  But we don;t have to blow up the entire private health insurance system that 85% or more of the people had, most happy with it.  Just provide help to those who really need it.  We have a food program that the government provides free food to the poor.  But we don;t nationalize the whole food industry because of people need to eat. 

This is just about socialism and making the government in charge of our lives.  We all lose freedom to live our lives as we choose to.  This idea of being secure if the government is in charge was sold by the Marxists to the Russians and lately to the Venezuelans.  Don't people ever learn what happens when you give government that kind of power?   In the end, you'll lose your health as well as your freedom. 

[Robert Roaldi]

This is just about socialism and making the government in charge of our lives.  We all lose freedom to live our lives as we choose to.  This idea of being secure if the government is in charge was sold by the Marxists to the Russians and lately to the Venezuelans.  Don't people ever learn what happens when you give government that kind of power?   In the end, you'll lose your health as well as your freedom.

None of this is true.

[Alan Klein]

None of this is true.

It's absolutely the truth.  You'll realize it after it's too late to do anything about it.