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Author Topic: The American Constitution  (Read 34293 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1200 on: July 08, 2019, 10:24:14 pm »

The second and third links are messed up.  Go to the first link and then find the other links on that web page.

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1201 on: July 08, 2019, 10:34:24 pm »

Below picture is the chart for PLACE OF BIRTH BY NATIVITY AND CITIZENSHIP STATUS.  Note it breaks out citizenship by citizens, naturalized, and not a citizen.  If this information was important before 5 years ago, why wouldn't it be important for 2020?  The administration should just copied this chart and give it to SCOTUS.  No wonder Trump fired the lawyers handling this.  They don't know how to present a case. 


Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1202 on: July 08, 2019, 10:38:46 pm »

This photo chart deals with estimates.  The argument for 2020 should have been that actually counting are the best.

Peter McLennan

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1203 on: July 08, 2019, 11:38:26 pm »

It has already started:
https://www.aalrr.com/EdLawConnectBlog/federal-appellate-court-upholds-california-high-schools-ban-on-american-flag-shirts-on-cinco-de-mayo
https://aclu-co.org/aclu-of-colorado-statement-on-schools-banning-personal-displays-of-flags/
American flag ban on campus draws lawmakers' rebuke
https://time.com/4472433/american-flag-ban-south-carolina/

etc.
etc.
etc.


I didn't read all of each of the articles, but they had me at

Quote
Though certainly controversial, the unanimous decision of the three-judge panel, which affirmed the same conclusion reached by a federal trial court, was based on a unique set of circumstances.

Referencing that report, it seems like it might have been a darn good idea, given that "unique set of circumstances"

The first item refers to a singular event nearly twenty years ago.

The ALCU statement you referenced is sensible and agreeable, save those "unique set of circumstances"


The LA times item appears to be behind a paywall.

The rest of it, I didn't bother with, especially the specious "etc. etc. etc" component.

This argument appears to be further hyperbole since I frequently see the American flag everywhere in my travels across your nation.  In fact, I frequently see it in my travels across MY nation.

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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1204 on: July 09, 2019, 12:16:31 am »


I didn't read all of each of the articles, but they had me at ...

Don’t be ridiculous. Every single link points to a case where the American flag was banned. It is no coincidence that the Commie 9th Circuit Court thinks there are “special circumstances” that justify it. There should be no circumstances in which the flag should be banned. Period. Those who are “intimidated” by it came to the country the flag represents and are now “intimidated” by it!? What!? The school sends boys with the flag home, instead those “intimidated.” What the hell is wrong with a country where its own flag is banned!?

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1205 on: July 09, 2019, 07:18:53 am »

This photo chart deals with estimates.  The argument for 2020 should have been that actually counting are the best.

That's part of the rub, the argumentation/justification was flawed from the beginning.

1. Experts say that adding a Citizenship question will negatively impact the quality of the Census. The question is also unnecessary, because better citizenship data is already available from other government sources. So it would make sense to not add it.

2. Apparently it has not been a question on all Census forms for 230 years. Sometimes it has been on, or not, on some Census forms but not all. A change to add it on all forms is possible, but only after justification why the forms must be altered. It's a costly operation, so not wasting money can be a good reason to leave things as they are.

3. The administration seems to have lied to Congres, with regards to who asked for adding the question, and when. In addition, questions about it have not been fully answered while protocol requires the government to do so. There has been an overall unwillingness to justify the change. Why? Why the stonewalling? What's there to hide? Why suddenly make a rush job out of it?

4. Evidence has surfaced that the real reason is that it would positively influence the later redrawing of districts in favor of the Republican party. It would negatively affect non-white voter participation. So it is clearly a partisan tactical move to include the question.

So, it creates lower quality data (that will lead to significantly under-budgeting of utilities, infrastructure, Hospitals, Schools, etc.), and it discriminates against people of color.

It only makes sense for partisan reasons, and has a whole lot of other serious negative effects.
So, why would anyone want to do such a stupid thing?

Cheers,
Bart
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1206 on: July 09, 2019, 07:36:05 am »

That's part of the rub, the argumentation/justification was flawed from the beginning.

1. [...] The question is also unnecessary, because better citizenship data is already available from other government sources.

The Census Bureau itself says (https://www2.census.gov/library/publications/decennial/2020/operations/planned-questions-2020-acs.pdf):
Quote
Since 2005, in order to provide communities, businesses, and the public with the detailed long-form information more frequently, these data have been collected monthly (and released annually) through the American Community Survey (ACS).1This innovation enabled the 2010 Census to be a “short-form-only” census. Decoupling the collection of short- and long-form data allowed the U.S. Census Bureau to focus decennial census efforts on the constitutional requirements to produce a count of the resident population, while employing technology in both collections to improve efficiencies, improve accuracy, and reduce costs. The result has been the dissemination of more current and detailed information than has ever been available

So, adding the question to the census is a costly change for no technical reason (to fill in non-existing blindspots). There is already more up-to-date and more accurate data available.

Quote
The result has been the dissemination of more current and detailed information than has ever been available

And all that without adding a citizenship question.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 07:41:05 am by Bart_van_der_Wolf »
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Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1207 on: July 09, 2019, 09:47:51 am »

Quote
Quote from: Bart_van_der_Wolf on Today at 07:18:53 am
That's part of the rub, the argumentation/justification was flawed from the beginning.

1. [...] The question is also unnecessary, because better citizenship data is already available from other government sources.

The Census Bureau itself says (https://www2.census.gov/library/publications/decennial/2020/operations/planned-questions-2020-acs.pdf):

Quote
Since 2005, in order to provide communities, businesses, and the public with the detailed long-form information more frequently, these data have been collected monthly (and released annually) through the American Community Survey (ACS).1This innovation enabled the 2010 Census to be a “short-form-only” census. Decoupling the collection of short- and long-form data allowed the U.S. Census Bureau to focus decennial census efforts on the constitutional requirements to produce a count of the resident population, while employing technology in both collections to improve efficiencies, improve accuracy, and reduce costs. The result has been the dissemination of more current and detailed information than has ever been available

So, adding the question to the census is a costly change for no technical reason (to fill in non-existing blindspots). There is already more up-to-date and more accurate data available.


Quote
The result has been the dissemination of more current and detailed information than has ever been available
And all that without adding a citizenship question.

Cheers,
Bart
[size=78%] [/size]



Your quote and my photo of the chart show that the Census bureau is collecting citizenship information during the unofficial non-census years.   So they're already asking the question. All that Trump is asking is to add it to the  census of 2020 so they can get an accurate count for the official census. It makes no sense to do estimates during the off years and then don't do an official count of citizenship for the actual 10 year census year. WHile there may be political overtones in the current administration, the census bureau felt the citizenship question was important enough to be asked long before Trump became president. 

Rob C

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1208 on: July 09, 2019, 10:04:42 am »

Don’t be ridiculous. Every single link points to a case where the American flag was banned. It is no coincidence that the Commie 9th Circuit Court thinks there are “special circumstances” that justify it. There should be no circumstances in which the flag should be banned. Period. Those who are “intimidated” by it came to the country the flag represents and are now “intimidated” by it!? What!? The school sends boys with the flag home, instead those “intimidated.” What the hell is wrong with a country where its own flag is banned!?

Yes; I'm always surprised that people fly flags at home, but if they want to, why not? It's a pity that Dixie is a graphically prettier flag than the stars and stripes: I bought a Dixie towel on a trip to Florida as a prop; they used the shot in the cal and nobody seemed upset. Brits abroad use the Union Jack for swimsuits; even ladies bags made use of it during the 60s and the Empire never rumbled back.

Rather than ban flags, we seem to be more given to banning Christian symbols which, really, are often no more than jewellery to the wearers. I don't really get the security risks behind a little crucifux on a golden chain around a lady's neck. I certainly do get the security risk behind anyone wearing head-to-toe disguise on the street, or on a boat, a 'plane or train!

I worry, too, about those who today want to destroy statues erected to the honour of our past heroes, all because of political correctness; so a rewrite of history is going to make the future a more secure and honest place? Really? As in telling today's lie in order to promote tomorrow's lack of knowledge of the truth of who we were?

Rob

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1209 on: July 09, 2019, 10:13:43 am »

Your quote and my photo of the chart show that the Census bureau is collecting citizenship information during the unofficial non-census years.   So they're already asking the question. All that Trump is asking is to add it to the  census of 2020 so they can get an accurate count for the official census.

No, there is no need to add it to the census, because the info is already known, and is updated annually instead of once per decade. It does cost a lot of money to add it to the Census, and it's a waste of effort, and it will reduce the accuracy of the other Census data. So, there is no need to add it, in fact it's detrimental.

The Census data (not the Citizenship data) is used for redistricting, so Citizenship is also useless for that purpose. The Census counts ALL persons, regardless of their Citizenship. That's because ALL persons make use of utilities, roads, hospitals etc. etc., for which budget needs to be allocated.

Quote
WHile there may be political overtones in the current administration, the census bureau felt the citizenship question was important enough to be asked long before Trump became president.

No, it's irrelevant data (and already known for other purposes), and not required by the constitution.

Adding it will reduce the accuracy of the Census.

The only reason is a political one, Census be damned.

Cheers,
Bart
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Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1210 on: July 09, 2019, 10:18:42 am »

Yes; I'm always surprised that people fly flags at home, but if they want to, why not? It's a pity that Dixie is a graphically prettier flag than the stars and stripes: I bought a Dixie towel on a trip to Florida as a prop; they used the shot in the cal and nobody seemed upset. Brits abroad use the Union Jack for swimsuits; even ladies bags made use of it during the 60s and the Empire never rumbled back.

Rather than ban flags, we seem to be more given to banning Christian symbols which, really, are often no more than jewellery to the wearers. I don't really get the security risks behind a little crucifux on a golden chain around a lady's neck. I certainly do get the security risk behind anyone wearing head-to-toe disguise on the street, or on a boat, a 'plane or train!

I worry, too, about those who today want to destroy statues erected to the honour of our past heroes, all because of political correctness; so a rewrite of history is going to make the future a more secure and honest place? Really? As in telling today's lie in order to promote tomorrow's lack of knowledge of the truth of who we were?

Rob

Getting back to photography and art, the Confederate rebel flag has a more balanced image while the American flag is more edgy due to its imbalance.  Believe it or not, here in New Jersey,  which was a northern state during the CIvil War, there are loads of rednecks who fly the rebel flag on the back to their pickup trucks zipping around the roads and freeways here.  I don't think they really know what the War was about just rebelling for the sake of it. 

Soon, we'll be ripping down statues of General and first President George Washington who was a slave owner.  I visited his home now a museum in Mount Vernon Virginia.  They still have the slave quarters standing.  Well, we'll have to burn down Mt. Vernon too.  I don't know if there any statues of King George III anywheres in America.  But since he's not an American, his statues will remain safe.  In any case, half of Americans are in love with the British royalty.  Maybe that's the plan.  Get rid of our heroes and bring back your royals.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1211 on: July 09, 2019, 10:19:05 am »

...1. Experts say that adding a Citizenship question will negatively impact the quality of the Census...

Haha ... you mean “experts” = Democrats?

RSL

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1212 on: July 09, 2019, 10:23:05 am »

Yes; I'm always surprised that people fly flags at home, but if they want to, why not? It's a pity that Dixie is a graphically prettier flag than the stars and stripes: I bought a Dixie towel on a trip to Florida as a prop; they used the shot in the cal and nobody seemed upset. Brits abroad use the Union Jack for swimsuits; even ladies bags made use of it during the 60s and the Empire never rumbled back.

Rather than ban flags, we seem to be more given to banning Christian symbols which, really, are often no more than jewellery to the wearers. I don't really get the security risks behind a little crucifux on a golden chain around a lady's neck. I certainly do get the security risk behind anyone wearing head-to-toe disguise on the street, or on a boat, a 'plane or train!

I worry, too, about those who today want to destroy statues erected to the honour of our past heroes, all because of political correctness; so a rewrite of history is going to make the future a more secure and honest place? Really? As in telling today's lie in order to promote tomorrow's lack of knowledge of the truth of who we were?

Rob

Well said, Rob. https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/07/historical-literacy-lacking-america-ignorance-political-polarization/

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1213 on: July 09, 2019, 10:24:19 am »

Haha ... you mean “experts” = Democrats?

You mean there are no Republican Statisticians in the Census Bureau? I find that hard to believe.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 11:12:53 am by Bart_van_der_Wolf »
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RSL

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1214 on: July 09, 2019, 10:26:01 am »

You mean there are no Republican Statisticians? I find that hard to believe.

Cheers,
Bart

There are Republican statisticians, Bart, but they work with real results rather than making stuff up.

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1215 on: July 09, 2019, 10:35:19 am »

No, there is no need to add it to the census, because the info is already known, and is updated annually instead of once per decade. It does cost a lot of money to add it to the Census, and it's a waste of effort, and it will reduce the accuracy of the other Census data. So, there is no need to add it, in fact it's detrimental.

The Census data (not the Citizenship data) is used for redistricting, so Citizenship is also useless for that purpose. The Census counts ALL persons, regardless of their Citizenship. That's because ALL persons make use of utilities, roads, hospitals etc. etc., for which budget needs to be allocated.

No, it's irrelevant data (and already known for other purposes), and not required by the constitution.

Adding it will reduce the accuracy of the Census.

The only reason is a political one, Census be damned.

Cheers,
Bart

If it's important to ask in all the unofficial off years, than it should be asked in the official on year.  Additionally, in the 2020 census, they will ask questions about what your race is, whether the couple living together is same sex, and other things that also have no bearing on the count for Constitutional reasons and election districts.  It seems a citizenship question has more bearing than these other questions which frankly seem a lot more intrusive.     Actually I'm surprised the gay community isn't objecting to the same sex question.  That seems political too.   

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1216 on: July 09, 2019, 10:42:57 am »

No, there is no need to add it to the census, because the info is already known, and is updated annually instead of once per decade. It does cost a lot of money to add it to the Census, and it's a waste of effort, and it will reduce the accuracy of the other Census data. So, there is no need to add it, in fact it's detrimental.

The Census data (not the Citizenship data) is used for redistricting, so Citizenship is also useless for that purpose. The Census counts ALL persons, regardless of their Citizenship. That's because ALL persons make use of utilities, roads, hospitals etc. etc., for which budget needs to be allocated.

No, it's irrelevant data (and already known for other purposes), and not required by the constitution.

Adding it will reduce the accuracy of the Census.

The only reason is a political one, Census be damned.

Cheers,
Bart

PS, The Census bureau acknowledges in their off-year counts were never official tested.  They're estimates. They can only "prove" their estimates with an official count which would have to be done in the ten-year census count of 2020. 

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1217 on: July 09, 2019, 10:46:06 am »

Rep. AOC Questions Secretary Wilbur Ross: 'Why Are We Violating The Law?'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clHfmYTrOVY

The stonewalling is amazing. WTF, "she's out of time". 

The above clip is only a part of the full 6.5 hours hearing of Secretary Wilbur Ross by the House Oversight Committee.
For those with a strong stomach, here is a longer version:
https://youtu.be/0EncbVI7srU?t=1461
It starts by wasting time that could have been used for questions, so one might as well start some an hour and 28 minutes into the hearing:
https://youtu.be/0EncbVI7srU?t=5311

Cheers,
Bart

« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 11:10:14 am by Bart_van_der_Wolf »
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LesPalenik

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1218 on: July 09, 2019, 10:53:22 am »

Rep. AOC Questions Secretary Wilbur Ross: 'Why Are We Violating The Law?'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clHfmYTrOVY


She (AOC) wears a heavy makeup for a young woman.

faberryman

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1219 on: July 09, 2019, 11:04:12 am »

This photo chart deals with estimates.  The argument for 2020 should have been that actually counting are the best.
Except that the census isn't actual counting either. The census asks some people questions and extrapolates. If the question is so important and there are good reasons for asking it, why did they lie about why they wanted to include it, and lie about the timetable for printing the forms?
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