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Author Topic: The American Constitution  (Read 34788 times)

faberryman

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1180 on: July 08, 2019, 03:22:09 pm »

Not so sure that the mechanisms are working:
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/07/kris-kobach-white-house-oversight-committee-1358073
Committees in Congress will not determine if a citizenship question is asked in the census. The courts will.

James Clark

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1181 on: July 08, 2019, 03:28:25 pm »

You equal a census question (which is confidential anyway) with searches and seizures!?

In any case, the SCOTUS has already determined that asking the question is not unconstitutional. So your concern is a moot point.

I find the government asking if you are doing something illegal without cause, in a way that is illegal to refuse to answer, to be problematic.  I suspect you would too if you weren't in favor of the outcome.  As for the USSC, this court has so far shown an alarming allowance for executive power, and a curious propensity to "instruct" on how to "solve" the court's concerns. I'll be curious to see if that's a political choice or a philosophical one.  Either way, it'll be clear next time there's a (D) executive.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1182 on: July 08, 2019, 03:31:19 pm »

Committees in Congress will not determine if a citizenship question is asked in the census. The courts will.

I'm not sure that the operation will receive the funding to be executed unless there is a legal necessity to change the Census. Yet explanations for the need to add the question are lacking. Doesn't the constitution demand that everyone is counted, not just citizens? Which kinda makes sense, because everyone is going to make use of utilities, roads, etc., not just citizens.

Cheers,
Bart
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== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1183 on: July 08, 2019, 03:42:02 pm »

Refusing to answer would be self-destructive and stupid, but well deserved.
Illegals won't answer the door when the census person comes a-knocking.  The last thing they want is to talk to a government official about anything. So it really doesn;t matter if the question is on the form.  If the get a form in their mailbox, it will be thrown out in the trash.

Many legals including citizens won't answer either because they don't want to be bothered. 

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1184 on: July 08, 2019, 03:54:20 pm »

I'm not sure that the operation will receive the funding to be executed unless there is a legal necessity to change the Census. Yet explanations for the need to add the question are lacking. Doesn't the constitution demand that everyone is counted, not just citizens? Which kinda makes sense, because everyone is going to make use of utilities, roads, etc., not just citizens.

Cheers,
Bart
CORRECT POST
But not everyone can vote.  Nor do illegals receive many benefits like Social Security.   It's reasonable to know how many citizens are actually in each district who will vote and could receive these benefits.  The census also finds out the ages of the people.  This is information that is important for determining government actions in many areas.  Census information is used by local government as well as business to plan development, zoning, government services, election districts, old-age homes, hospital needs, etc.  If there are people there who aren't citizens, it would be nice to know the exact quantity, not just how many people of all kinds are there.  Otherwise the result will be distorted and have substantial effect on government and private planning. 

SCOTUS ruled that the question, in itself, is not unconstitutional.  Unfortunately, the administration gave stupid reasons for including  it that smacked of bias. So SCOTUS ruled that they couldn't include it.  If Trump uses my previous paragraph and submits it to SCOTUS, it would probably be approved as a reasonable need.

Rob C

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1185 on: July 08, 2019, 03:55:30 pm »

You are so wrong, Rob!

Here is The Father Of The Year 2019 nominee:

Oh! Just another normal father's convention after all; one day I shall get this right,

Sorry for being off key.

:-)

Rob

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1186 on: July 08, 2019, 04:20:53 pm »

There are a number of states that already use independent commissions that draw both Congressional and state legislative district boundaries.  In these states there is no Gerrymandering.  The biggest of these is California which has the most districts.  States with one or two Congressional districts of which there are a number are irrelevant for this discussion.  Gerrymandering can still be challenged in state courts and the districts overturned which is what happened to the weirdly drawn Pennsylvania districts.  The Supreme Court decision has no impact at all on these types of decisions.  There will be increasing efforts at the state level to move towards independent redistricting.  For states that allow citizen initiatives on the ballot this can be accomplished by a direct vote but not every state allows this.

The most egregious example of Gerrymandering is in North Carolina where every single one of the 13 districts is poorly drawn.  Their state legislative districts are also drawn to protect the Republican party in a state that is about 50/50 in terms of registration.  North Carolina does not permit citizen initiatives.  this is one of the principal reasons why this particular case has been challenged in Federal Court as there really is not a good remedy to fix this situation.

With respect to the census question about citizenship there are a couple of points.  One is not compelled to answer the question.  The government has no ability to penalize one if I elect not to answer.  One might envision a groundswell of activism that would lead to a massive undercounting of citizens in the US.  the second an perhaps more important point is that both Blue and Red states will be impacted here.  there are likely many undocumented people in states such as Texas, Arizona, and Florida, all of which have predominantly Republican congressmen and voted for Trump in the last election.  It's entirely possible that an undercount would lead to the potential loss of a Congressional seat or two.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1187 on: July 08, 2019, 04:41:47 pm »

I find the government asking if you are doing something illegal..

That is not what are they asking. They’re asking if you are a citizen. A “no” answer is not admitting illegality, because you would answer “no” if you are a legal resident, on a visa or green card. Responses are confidential anyway.

faberryman

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1188 on: July 08, 2019, 04:45:22 pm »

That is not what are they asking. They’re asking if you are a citizen. A “no” answer is not admitting illegality, because you would answer “no” if you are a legal resident, on a visa or green card. Responses are confidential anyway.
And of course, we need that information for enforcing the Voting Rights Act. Nah, I just made that up. Oh... wait.

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1189 on: July 08, 2019, 05:19:43 pm »

An interesting situation is developing in NYS and with firebrand Democrat Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (AOC).  Apparently, NYS is losing residents so they will lose one election district in the next census.  AOC isn;t particularly liked by her fellow Democrats.  So they might re-draw her district eliminating her.  So gerrymandering isn't just between parties but is also used within the same party.  Isn't politics nice? 
https://theintercept.com/2019/02/09/ocasio-cortez-district-redistricting-2020/

James Clark

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1190 on: July 08, 2019, 07:44:31 pm »

That is not what are they asking. They’re asking if you are a citizen. A “no” answer is not admitting illegality, because you would answer “no” if you are a legal resident, on a visa or green card. Responses are confidential anyway.

So you contend that the question is in no way politically motivated?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1191 on: July 08, 2019, 08:01:09 pm »

So you contend that the question is in no way politically motivated?

I do not give a damn about motivation. Seems like a perfectly legitimate and useful question to ask. It used to be a part of the census in the past, and certainly for much less political reasons.

James Clark

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1192 on: July 08, 2019, 08:15:18 pm »

I do not give a damn about motivation. Seems like a perfectly legitimate and useful question to ask. It used to be a part of the census in the past, and certainly for much less political reasons.

Maybe. Maybe not.  It would be easier enough to figure out how legitimate if, for example, other legitimate and useful questions were allowed to be posed.  Then again, it's hard to depose a dead man.


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Peter McLennan

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1193 on: July 08, 2019, 09:08:08 pm »

Yes, pretty soon we will ban the American flag and anthem for disenfranchising illegal-immigrant aligned and Democratic-leaning voters.

Hyperbole is for you unbecoming.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1194 on: July 08, 2019, 09:11:30 pm »

Responses are confidential anyway.

HA!  And this from a guy from Eastern Europe.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1195 on: July 08, 2019, 09:18:54 pm »

HA!  And this from a guy from Eastern Europe.

? ? ?

LesPalenik

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1196 on: July 08, 2019, 09:26:55 pm »

? ? ?

I think, Peter insinuated that when a government tells you that the conversation between them and you is confidential, it may be not so.
However, he is wrong about the Eastern governments. Mentioning any confidentiality there would be a dead giveaway that more discussions are coming.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1198 on: July 08, 2019, 10:00:09 pm »

I think, Peter insinuated that when a government tells you that the conversation between them and you is confidential, it may be not so...

Quote
... the Census Bureau’s absolute commitment to confidentiality.

This commitment begins in law. The Census Law, Title 13 of the U.S. Code, is straightforward and has strong protection. Title 13 requires that responses to Census Bureau surveys and censuses be kept confidential and used for statistical purposes only. The Census Bureau publishes only aggregated statistics that do not reveal information about particular individuals, households or businesses. All staff working with confidential information at the Census Bureau take a lifetime oath to protect the privacy and confidentiality of respondent information. Unlawful disclosure is a federal crime punishable by a $250,000 fine or five years in prison, or both.

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1199 on: July 08, 2019, 10:22:53 pm »

Census information is used by government , business, and others for many reasons.  So the information is gathers is important for many reasons.  The first link shows the informations spreadsheet for a typical city - I picked Atlanta Georgia.
https://factfinder.census.gov/faces/nav/jsf/pages/community_facts.xhtml?src=bkmk

From the first link is another link for the 2010 census. The data is pretty specific although no references to citizenship that I noticed.
https://factfinder.census.gov/faces/tableservices/jsf/pages/productview.xhtml?src=CF

There are links on the first sheet to estimate for 5 year period.  Here's on for American Community Survey 5 year estimates.  It has not only ethic and race but at the bottom shows voting citizenship.  I don;t know how the data was developed.  But it seems that rather than estimating, we should actually do the count of citizenship.
https://factfinder.census.gov/faces/tableservices/jsf/pages/productview.xhtml?src=CF
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