Brexit Encore

[Robert Roaldi]

He wouldn't have to move if he had private health care.  Neither would the person in the US with private health care. 

I don;t know what private health care costs anymore as I'm on both government Medicare and private insurance.  My wife and I still spend around $6000 a year for insurance not counting deductibles for both Medicare and private insurance premiums.  In any case, half of America's medical costs are being supported by the government.  That raises the cost of medical care because there's no incentive for individuals to cut back since the government pays.  That will get worse if everyone is covered by government or there will be government cutbacks on the care you can get.  There's a limit to how much money the government can spend.  Note that 40% of total insurance is by private insurance usually through places of work.  Here's a good chart on breakouts through the years.
https://www.chcf.org/publication/us-health-care-spending-who-pays/

Then how do you explain that US health costs are generally accepted to be much higher (double?) than in other developed countries with universal health care but with worse outcomes? At the least, shouldn't it be trending the other way?

But in any case, almost everything you said is an ideological assertion. The mantra is "government bad" "private good". All you can say is that sometimes that's true and sometimes it's not.

[Alan Klein]

Then how do you explain that US health costs are generally accepted to be much higher (double?) than in other developed countries with universal health care but with worse outcomes? At the least, shouldn't it be trending the other way?

But in any case, almost everything you said is an ideological assertion. The mantra is "government bad" "private good". All you can say is that sometimes that's true and sometimes it's not.

Yes, my main concern is that turning control of anything over to the government is a slippery slope.  Each additional step takes away more individual freedom.  While we all have to live with rules and regulations, trying to keep them at a minimum to protect those freedoms may mean we're at more risk in life.  That's what freedom is all about.  Frankly, I'd rather trust in my own ability and concern then turn my life over to some government bureaucrat who could care less about me and my family. 

[Alan Klein]

Freedom costs.

[Manoli]

Coming up to the last period of ‘overtime’; this week promises some interesting exchanges in the UK Parliament. So below a link to an ‘informed’ article on an issue that may well come before the courts.

http://ohrh.law.ox.ac.uk/prorogation-constitutional-principle-and-law-fact-and-causation/

Professor Paul Craig was educated at Worcester College, Oxford, where he subsequently became a Fellow and Tutor in law in 1976. He was appointed to a Readership in 1990, and then became an ad hominem Professor in 1996. He was appointed to an established chair in 1998, the Professorship in English law, which is held at St John's College Oxford. He was made an Honorary QC in 2000, and an Honorary Bencher of Gray's Inn in the same year. He has lectured at many other institutions across the world, including in North America, Europe, China and Australia.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

I am sure there must be a logical explanation for this:

ad hominem Professor

[Manoli]

... and Ivan Rogers writing in The Spectator on the ‘realities of a no deal Brexit ‘ (You may need to register)

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/ivan-rogers-the-realities-of-a-no-deal-brexit/

[kers]

“How migrants cross the Channel from Calais” https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49530997

There is a whole camp of migrants in Calais, whose sole raison d’etre (pardon my French) is waiting to cross the Channel. Italy also has sea (almost) all around it. Never stopped migrants either.

But you do trust walls to keep immigrants out?

[Manoli]

I am sure there must be a logical explanation for this:

There is
‘... there's no vacancy, but you're so good we'll give you the title Professor anyway’

[jeremyrh]

I am sure there must be a logical explanation for this:

Now there's a job! Maybe time spent here isn't wasted after all?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

But you do trust walls to keep immigrants out?

Surely they will, at least to a significant degree, just ask Israel.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

There is
‘... there's no vacancy, but you're so good we'll give you the title Professor anyway’

I meant the ad hominem part Otherwise, is there a course in teaching people how to use that logical fallacy to their advantage in debates?

[jeremyrh]

Surely they will, at least to a significant degree, just ask Israel.

Bad example - Israel is FULL of immigrants!

[kers]

Surely they will, at least to a significant degree, just ask Israel.

I know Trump did get the idea from them....
i was planning to ask the Sovjetunion...    i see a wall as closing in, goes well in line with protectionism....

Problem with the USA is- it is not the only border... people alternatively take boats to migrate...
enormous shoreline like the Mediterrain - better start a Chinese wall.

[jeremyrh]

Yes, my main concern is that turning control of anything over to the government is a slippery slope.  Each additional step takes away more individual freedom.  While we all have to live with rules and regulations, trying to keep them at a minimum to protect those freedoms may mean we're at more risk in life.  That's what freedom is all about.  Frankly, I'd rather trust in my own ability and concern then turn my life over to some government bureaucrat who could care less about me and my family.

That's one sort of freedom. Another is freedom from the fear that illness will destroy your family finances, with everything that follows, or worse, that you will die needlessly because you couldn't pay the doctor's bill.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... that you will die needlessly because you couldn't pay the doctor's bill.

That's aint gonna happen. ERs will treat you with or without insurance.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Bad example - Israel is FULL of immigrants!

Bad logic. If it is "ful," as you say, that was before the wall.

https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Israels-border-walls-A-case-study-For-Trumps-mantra-574517

After breaking ground in 2010, Israel completed the 242-km. (150-mile) fence in December 2013 at a cost of around $450 million. Whereas about 9,500 Africans crossed into Israel illegally in the first six months of 2012, less than three dozen did so in the first six months of 2013, at which time the major components of the barrier had been completed.

Illegal immigration through Sinai dropped to 11 cases in 2016 and 0 in 2017.

The fence also has dramatically reduced the smuggling of contraband into Israel and there have been no security breaches from Sinai since then...

There were over 70 suicide bombings—killing nearly 300 Israelis—carried out from the West Bank over that time period, until the first significant contiguous section of the barrier was completed.

There were 12 such attacks between August 2003 and the end of 2006.

[Alan Klein]

That's aint gonna happen. ERs will treat you with or without insurance.

When I had my heart surgery in April the guy in the bed next to me was a middle age homeless person who was getting his heart valve repaired. All at the expense of the government. 

He had no money or insurance. His wife also homeless would take showers in our patients only bathroom. When he was transferred, she left with the pillows and linen. They were actually nice people. I wished them well.

[Rob C]

because Britain offers a better set of freebies and bleeding hearts.


I doubt if that's actually the case. One thing that draws them is the fact that probably they have relatives already here, and that they speak the language.

Anyway - if you think this is bad, wait till the folk whose farms turned to dust head north looking for the fields made greener by all the lovely  co2!!

Grapes of Wrath.

:-)

[Rob C]

Ask Rob if he's losing control of his medical care in Spain. 

In any case, I haven;t noticed you changing your talking points.  We're up to page 49.  Has anyone changed their mind in this forum?  Ever? 

Rob can only tell you that he simply does not know his future re. medicine.

I had private health insurance here in Spain, alongside the free care to which I and my wife were entitled because of EEC membership. We dropped the private for two reasons: she discovered that the public care was excellent when she unexpectedly found herself in a public health hospital with a broken hip and, hours later, that cancer had returned; the last premium I paid, eleven years ago, was Euros 3,600. Today, it would be God knows what. I couldn't keep that flying much longer, but while she was getting cancer treatment, no way we'd stop without knowing the alternative quality first-hand.

Your perpetual paean for the beauty of private health care sounds pretty hollow: look at your own circumstances, as you describe them. I far rather have the Spanish national service than yours. My local, Spanish health problem is not that of the service, nor caused by it: it's the bastard child of the Brexiteers.

[Alan Klein]

Rob can only tell you that he simply does not know his future re. medicine.

I had private health insurance here in Spain, alongside the free care to which I and my wife were entitled because of EEC membership. We dropped the private for two reasons: she discovered that the public care was excellent when she unexpectedly found herself in a public health hospital with a broken hip and, hours later, that cancer had returned; the last premium I paid, eleven years ago, was Euros 3,600. Today, it would be God knows what. I couldn't keep that flying much longer, but while she was getting cancer treatment, no way we'd stop without knowing the alternative quality first-hand.

Your perpetual paean for the beauty of private health care sounds pretty hollow: look at your own circumstances, as you describe them. I far rather have the Spanish national service than yours. My local, Spanish health problem is not that of the service, nor caused by it: it's the bastard child of the Brexiteers.

Health care is a thorny issue.  I'm not saying it isn't.  Up to Obamacare, 85-90% of the people were covered already either by government or private insurance.  As we switch over to more and more government payments, the amount spent will go up as all government programs do.  Look at the cost of going to college since the government gave loans to anyone who wanted them?   It's 4x the cost it use to be just a few years ago.  There are no controls. It would have been better to just help those who couldn't afford insurance rather than trying to nationalize the whole thing which is where we're going.  The money isn;t there without controls, limitations, and competition.  Arguing that people can't afford to have private insurance after the government impose higher taxes to pay for "free" government medical care is a poor argument.     It leaves you with not enough money to pay for private insurance. Also blaming Brexiteers is really blaming the government.  Leaving your health in the care if others decisions can only happen when the government controls the situation.  Why would you want control in the hands of Brexiteers or people like Boris?  That's my point.  They're a**holes.