Brexit Encore

[jeremyrh]

Funny that's what I think of you Europeans always knowing what's best for America.

Which is why I generally don't comment on US-only issues (even though I lived there for quite a while).

[Rob C]

Perhaps a temporary reprieve.

I wouldn't depend on the young vote: I imagine it has been soured off along with the rest of the electorate's enthusiasm, one way or the other.

The danger in that, of course, is that the radicals take the political stage because they are the ones committed to getting their hands on power. We have that proof in the current Tory leadership. I can no longer recognize my old party of choice.

The majority - what is it? That mass of people watching football or cricket on tv; the same people gathered in corners in pubs getting smashed because there's nothing better to do? How can anyone really expect them to care much about anything beyond the next pay-packet? An average education that is not amongst the highest in Europe; a desperate lack of general ability to converse in at least one other language. And arching above all that, class and regional loyalties that dictate that whatever London and the south want must be bad for them in the north. In Scotland, there is even more confusion: the belief that separation from England is going to be economically better for them yet the opposite belief that continued union with Europe is going to be much the better option. So, on the one hand, standing alone, but on the other, being part of a gang. Irony? Wot that? And never have I seen that apparent dichotomy exposed and discussed. Perhaps six million people just don't matter. Interesting thought: that's the same figure as the Holocaust victims. So, in real terms, the Nazis could be said to have wiped out the equivalent of the entire population of Scotland. That, apart from interesting, is a sobering thought.

And guess where politics in the UK is headed?

[Alan Klein]

What's very confusing to me from this side of the pond is that parliament can stop Brexit legally by a vote.  Yet, the referendum by non-binding vote of the people calls for Brexit.  If it's so bad and parliament represents the people's wishes, and those wishes have changed, why don't they just shut it down? 

[Robert Roaldi]

What's very confusing to me from this side of the pond is that parliament can stop Brexit legally by a vote.  Yet, the referendum by non-binding vote of the people calls for Brexit.  If it's so bad and parliament represents the people's wishes, and those wishes have changed, why don't they just shut it down?

Yes, it can appear confusing but no more so that the US Electoral College.

When we say that a referendum is binding, just how "binding" is binding? It's not as if there is a lot of precedent to fall back on, so far as I know.

[Alan Klein]

Yes, it can appear confusing but no more so that the US Electoral College.

When we say that a referendum is binding, just how "binding" is binding? It's not as if there is a lot of precedent to fall back on, so far as I know.

We don't have referendums Federally but we do have them within particular states and locally in towns.  For example, where I live in New Jersey we recently voted down a bond for expanding schools to cover additional kids in our township.  Not sure what's going to happen now because the state of New Jersey requires kids to be educated.  So they'll have to make some arrangements to provide temporary classrooms. In the end, we'll wind up paying for it.  I guess Brits will wind up paying for Brexit as well. 

[jeremyrh]

What's very confusing to me from this side of the pond is that parliament can stop Brexit legally by a vote.  Yet, the referendum by non-binding vote of the people calls for Brexit.  If it's so bad and parliament represents the people's wishes, and those wishes have changed, why don't they just shut it down?

Well, firstly it's not clear that people's minds have changed. There are various polls saying one thing or another but polls are not infallible as we have learned. Secondly, the referendum is described now by some as non binding but at the time people were told that their wish would be observed. However, it was not explained by anybody HOW it would  be observed. So Johnson and Co voted against a soft Brexit but now call the ones voting against a hard Brexit "traitors".

The stupid thing is that this whole mess was supposed to clear up the problems caused by anti-EU elements in the Tory party but the outcome has been to make it all worse.

[Alan Klein]

Well, firstly it's not clear that people's minds have changed. There are various polls saying one thing or another but polls are not infallible as we have learned. Secondly, the referendum is described now by some as non binding but at the time people were told that their wish would be observed. However, it was not explained by anybody HOW it would  be observed. So Johnson and Co voted against a soft Brexit but now call the ones voting against a hard Brexit "traitors".

The stupid thing is that this whole mess was supposed to clear up the problems caused by anti-EU elements in the Tory party but the outcome has been to make it all worse.

Maybe they're afraid to vote and take the blame?  How many want the PM to make the decision on his own?

In America, most people in Congress prefer the President to make decisions that take us into battle and war. They don't want to make the hard choices even though the Constitution requires Congress to declare war.  It's not up to the president.  Congressmen don't want to get blamed later and lose a re-election if it turns out bad.   So over the years, they've given up more and more power to the president, turning him into a king.   So we've gotten into more foreign adventures because of it that have hurt more than helped. 

I wonder if that's what's happening with Brexit right now? How many ministers will claim later they were for it before they were against it or vice versus.   

[Alan Klein]

Funny that's what I think of you Europeans always knowing what's best for America.

Which is why I generally don't comment on US-only issues (even though I lived there for quite a while).

Your humility is not shared by some others.

[kers]

This whole Brexit process may eventually clear some things up mainly inside Britain, but a lot of damage is done.
Economical damage- companies leaving Britain, not knowing what the future will bring and all the wasted political energy it has absorbed, leaving the country steerless for three years now.
This whole mess started with a referendum were Brexiteers shooted false arguments without a penalty and Remainers were not able to communicate the importance of being part of the EU.

Also in my country, the Netherlands, politicians are not able to explain the importance of the EU.
Somehow that seems as betraying your homeland; it is so much easier to be a true patriot.
Nobody will question you when you seem to be loyal to your nation, even if you spit enormous lies.

[jeremyrh]

Your humility is not shared by some others.

It's not easy to be as perfect as me :-)

[Alan Klein]

This whole Brexit process may eventually clear some things up mainly inside Britain, but a lot of damage is done.
Economical damage- companies leaving Britain, not knowing what the future will bring and all the wasted political energy it has absorbed, leaving the country steerless for three years now.
This whole mess started with a referendum were Brexiteers shooted false arguments without a penalty and Remainers were not able to communicate the importance of being part of the EU.

Also in my country, the Netherlands, politicians are not able to explain the importance of the EU.
Somehow that seems as betraying your homeland; it is so much easier to be a true patriot.
Nobody will question you when you seem to be loyal to your nation, even if you spit enormous lies.

Why can't they explain the importance?  How is it important to you?

[Alan Klein]

It's not easy to be as perfect as me :-)

Nor I.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

The US strategy is working: send refugees to Europe. It shall disintegrate.

[jeremyrh]

Why can't they explain the importance?  How is it important to you?

It's difficult to explain the benefits of just in time supply chains to someone who voted Leave because of an experience with a rude Nigerian nurse. Really, it's a case of "the devil has all the best tunes".

[Alan Klein]

Smart people stay in America.

[RSL]

We can use some more Mexican restaurants, or do you mean Americans fleeing the country?
We can always use some more smart people.

Careful, Bart. You're liable to get geniuses like Barbra Streisand and AOC. Seems to me I remember Barbra was going to leave the US if Trump were elected.

[JoeKitchen]

It's difficult to explain the benefits of just in time supply chains to someone who voted Leave because of an experience with a rude Nigerian nurse. Really, it's a case of "the devil has all the best tunes".

That is a great saying. 

[Chris Kern]

The stupid thing is that this whole mess was supposed to clear up the problems caused by anti-EU elements in the Tory party but the outcome has been to make it all worse.

Well, I suspect BoJo and his buddies have no intention of taking their latest setbacks lying down.

[Alan Klein]

"Boris Johnson's bid for early UK election rejected"

So that means he has to go to the EU and beg for relief?  What if they say Nein?

[Rob C]

Go on the Internet and check in to BBC or France24.com or even Sky News, if you want detail.

They are covering it all very closely, and it is so sad to watch people on the right say things like the opposition being afraid to agree to an early general election. Both sides know the truth, spelled out ad nauseam, that the reason they refuse to undertake that election NOW is because it will allow no-deal Brexit to happen by default because the election will prevent time enough to do both the election and fight for a sensible exit deal. Equally sad is hearing them say that those who veto a no-deal exit are against an exit and trying to frustrate the result of the referendum.. Some are, but some not: the fight is over the manner of the exit, and the consequences of no deal, which everybody knows will render the UK a lost soul, kissing the Trump ass. As so many have pointed out, Mr T will do his best to screw that position to his trading advantage, and rightly so. It's Britain's responsibility to protect itself, not Mr T's.

Boris keeps talking about the progress his "deal" is (was) making in current Eiropean talks: the Europeans say they have been in no meaningful talks. The man knows neither truth nor shame.

From a slim majority of one, bought by May by bribing that Irish minority party to support her, he has blustered and fired colleagues until he now has a majority of minus forty-something I think it was, at last count, which is why he was forced this evening to attempt to call an election which is being refused for the chronological reasons explained above.