Brexit Encore

[faberryman]

As a matter of interest, do USAns have the right to move to Canada?

They have the same rights to move to Canada as you would, no more, no less. Compliance with Canadian immigration laws, visas, work permits, etc.

[Rob C]

Rob - my Plan B is to move to Ireland. Have you thought of that?

If you mean the southern one, it wouldn't help: as it's part of the European deal, it would be the same as staying here in Spain. Staying in Spain, with the negotiated deal, guarantees me health services access in Spain, but not elsewhere in Europe whereas leaving without that deal, the lemming way, means I'm screwed.

The only place I'd eventually get health services back would be in the UK, which becomes doubtful, because the system will probably collapse without the foreign staff at all levels of it. So rather than enjoying the mythical 350 million squids a week, it will just freeze to a standstill.

Many folks never think these things through until the things hit them, and then it's too late.

France24.com just did an interesting weekly news review, including an item on recent Tory voters who would be happy to see the break-up of the UK as long as they get Brexit. It appears as if the recognized parties are losing both identity and purpose, as happened recently in France, which saw outsider Macron sweep to power. Those Torries would even be happy enough to have Farage as next leader! The Brexit mania has swept everything else aside.

Rob

[jeremyrh]

If you mean the southern one, it wouldn't help: as it's part of the European deal, it would be the same as staying here in Spain. Staying in Spain, with the negotiated deal, guarantees me health services access in Spain, but not elsewhere in Europe whereas leaving without that deal, the lemming way, means I'm screwed.

That's just it  - Brits have the right to live in Ireland and receive health care etc there. Only place in the EU that were guaranteed to be able to move!

[john beardsworth]

France24.com just did an interesting weekly news review, including an item on recent Tory voters who would be happy to see the break-up of the UK as long as they get Brexit.

Coincidentally, a couple of days ago I hacked the graphic accompanying a report of the YouGov poll on which that story must have been based.....

[Rob C]

That's just it  - Brits have the right to live in Ireland and receive health care etc there. Only place in the EU that were guaranteed to be able to move!

Is there any reference material to that? I knew it was a sort of modest tax haven for artists and such, but not sure if that applied to other grades of people.

But that asked, it wouldn't really matter: if I manage to sell here, I'd be moving away because it's for inheritance tax purposes regarding my kids, and I'd return to Scotland. The problem is that sales here to Brits (at my modest level) are mostly on hold because of the current Brexit uncertainty, and so my dependency on local services could continue for years ahead. The Brits were the main movers of real estate. With a sunken pound, that could become even worse a situation for them buying, but better for me selling, if anyone would buy.

I would get access to the health services back there in Scotland because of being British, plus the benefit of seeing more of the kids, now and again.

[jeremyrh]

Is there any reference material to that? I knew it was a sort of modest tax haven for artists and such, but not sure if that applied to other grades of people.

Sure - it’s on the gov.uk website if you google “right to live in Ireland “ or some such.

But that asked, it wouldn't really matter: if I manage to sell here, I'd be moving away because it's for inheritance tax purposes regarding my kids, and I'd return to Scotland. The problem is that sales here to Brits (at my modest level) are mostly on hold because of the current Brexit uncertainty, and so my dependency on local services could continue for years ahead. The Brits were the main movers of real estate. With a sunken pound, that could become even worse a situation for them buying, but better for me selling, if anyone would buy.

I would get access to the health services back there in Scotland because of being British, plus the benefit of seeing more of the kids, now and again.

Fair enough - my situation is different in that family members are non-UK and I’d like to see them daily, not just via Skype.  Plus I’d like to live in a country that is more outward-looking than Brexit-land

[Alan Klein]

Sure - it’s on the gov.uk website if you google “right to live in Ireland “ or some such.
Fair enough - my situation is different in that family members are non-UK and I’d like to see them daily, not just via Skype.  Plus I’d like to live in a country that is more outward-looking than Brexit-land

Where do you live, Jeremy?  Where do your family members live?

[jeremyrh]

Where do you live, Jeremy?  Where do your family members live?

I live in the UK. Right now my family members live here also   Post Brexit they are not guaranteed to be able to do so, so  a prudent person looks for Plan B. Right now the only place that I know of where UK nationals and E.U. nationals will be able to live together AS OF RIGHT is Ireland.

[Rob C]

I live in the UK. Right now my family members live here also   Post Brexit they are not guaranteed to be able to do so, so  a prudent person looks for Plan B. Right now the only place that I know of where UK nationals and E.U. nationals will be able to live together AS OF RIGHT is Ireland.

And it's the AS OF RIGHT aspect that so many Brexiteers seem to have overlooked regarding their own chances of working or living in Europe at some future stage in their life. They may well not want to right now, but who knows how they may feel later in life?

It appears it's the thing the old have done to the chances of the young. Much like climate change seems to be: we are ignoring our responsibilities to our children. It's not good enough for folks to say: that's their problem, let 'em fix it themselves.

Rob

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

And it's the ASS OF RIGHT aspect ...

Yeah, such a right would really suck

[Alan Klein]

Why couldn't a BRit work on the continent after Brexit?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Why couldn't a BRit work on the continent after Brexit?

First world problem. The sky falls if they have to apply for a work visa or residency permit, something the rest of the world has been doing forever.

[john beardsworth]

Why couldn't a BRit work on the continent after Brexit?

For 40 years there have been no restrictions, so we've been able to do so as freely as someone from NY might move to CA, or might retire to AZ, with no state intervention. I am one of millions who took advantage of that, both as employee and employer. Stick work/residency permits in the way and it's more akin to trying to move to the US.

[jeremyrh]

Why couldn't a BRit work on the continent after Brexit?

What if they don’t want to work , just live, as Rob does now (I guess)?  What if they don’t have a specific skill identified by another country, or are the wrong age or whatever?

[Rob C]

Yeah, such a right would really suck

In recent months I have realised that far from being the party I thought I was supporting, the right is a collection of donkeys.

Moira, my old white nag in the field, has more common sense. At least she knows from whence her carrots come.

;-)

[Rob C]

Why couldn't a BRit work on the continent after Brexit?

They could work, by invitation, but not by their own choice without having such an invitation first. Whilst in the EU, anyone with the desire to up sticks and go to another member country can do just that (like you Americans going from state to state - you still can, can't you?).

Sadly, being both by nature and nurture of an insular mindset, some fear the dragons they are sure lie in wait beyond the comforting barrier of the sea, but celebrate and embrace unicorns of their own manufacture.

You may begin to understand the uphill struggle to reach the higher ground of freedom of movement.

[Rob C]

First world problem. The sky falls if they have to apply for a work visa or residency permit, something the rest of the world has been doing forever.

It wasn't that simple in Spain.

If you wanted to set up a business as, for example, a representative company for a group of UK tour operators, you had to have a Spanish partner in the company you set up. I know this from the experiences of an early client working here and on the UK side.

It wasn't just a matter of applying for a permit and off you go. I am led to believe that Italy and France were even more tangled up in red tape; for them, at least, the EU has also been a bit of a liberating wind of change.

[Rob C]

What if they don’t want to work , just live, as Rob does now (I guess)?  What if they don’t have a specific skill identified by another country, or are the wrong age or whatever?

There have been many changes over the years and since the demise of Franco, but as far as I can trust my memory, you could come to live here if you could show yourself to be in receipt of a pension and have it paid here. At the time, I think that once you hit pensionable age, you were granted Spanish health facilities.

For younger people, as myself - I was just in my early forties - life worked around a three-month limit, and you collected a series of flight tickets proving you'd not lived in Spain continuously longer than three months, and you took care to get your passport stamped. They sold you lots of passports in them thar days! Younger, you either took a chance on immortality or bought private health insurance. Once both Spain and Britain were in it (the EU), all that was shoved aside and you became free and equal.

But it was no guarantee of success: many Brits thought the good life meant buying a pub; they often lost the lot. In any country you have to find your own success - there are failed Spaniards as there are failed expats. The working hours of a Spanish bar would dismay many a British pub owner: some are open at sparrow fart, providing breakfast to workmen before they go off to their jobs, and they close with the last drunk standing.

[Alan Klein]

They could work, by invitation, but not by their own choice without having such an invitation first. Whilst in the EU, anyone with the desire to up sticks and go to another member country can do just that (like you Americans going from state to state - you still can, can't you?).

Sadly, being both by nature and nurture of an insular mindset, some fear the dragons they are sure lie in wait beyond the comforting barrier of the sea, but celebrate and embrace unicorns of their own manufacture.

You may begin to understand the uphill struggle to reach the higher ground of freedom of movement.

"In 2017, there were 27.4 million foreign-born persons in the U.S. labor force, comprising 17.1 percent of the total."
Note: An American employer has to sponsor a foreigner to get a work visa.  I once did a favor for a cab driver I knew (I think from some Middle Eastern country) and looking for a job.  I helped him get that paper and secure a job here.  30-40 years ago.  Nice fellow. 
https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/forbrn.pdf


Comparing inter-State freedom in America to Inter-nation access in Europe is not the same.  All 50 American states are in America.  States are constitutionally forbidden to set up "home rules" for their own residents. After all, we're all Americans.  On the other hand, it doesn;t seem that "unfair" to expect countries to limit immigration of foreigners who might take the work of nationals.  How would a Parisian feel he couldn't get a job in France because a Londoner was hired in his place at a slightly lesser salary?  That's the kind of issue that's going on in America right now with a lot of foreign engineers being hired in Silicon Valley at quite excellent salaries but not as high as they would have to pay Americans.  "Illegals" take the job of Americans at the lower end of the pay range as well, one of the reasons Americans complain about illegal immigration coming from south of our border. 


Doesn't similar things happen in Europe?  Do EU countries complain about that too?

[john beardsworth]

Comparing inter-State freedom in America to Inter-nation access in Europe is not the same.  All 50 American states are in America.  States are constitutionally forbidden to set up "home rules" for their own residents. After all, we're all Americans.

Please read the answers to your previous question. It has been like that in Europe.