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Author Topic: Brexit Encore  (Read 149749 times)

Rhossydd

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #220 on: May 28, 2019, 04:12:44 pm »

Why trust non-British Europeans to take care of your welfare, people who really don;t care about Brits or anyone else for that matter?
That's a dark and quite worrying assessment of human nature.

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Alan Klein

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #221 on: May 28, 2019, 04:15:17 pm »

That's a dark and quite worrying assessment of human nature.


WWI and WWII was enlightened as was the Cold War.

Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #222 on: May 28, 2019, 04:30:05 pm »

Quite right as the voting results by country within the UK well demonstrated:  https://www.bbc.com/news/politics/eu_referendum/results  One is left to wonder if a Hard Brexit goes through whether the UK will survive.  Scotland has already had one vote for independence and it's easy to see another coming up quickly.  The Irish on both sides of the Island's border want it to remain open.  Don't know much about the sentiment in Wales.


I believe that the risk of an eventual breaking up of the UK is not a concern to Boris and his band of merry bears; the lands that lie outwith the M25 boundary are probably still seen as redolent of monsters, mists and unicorns, and fit only for hunting and fishing. In some ways, if I'm right on that point, so, to a certain degree is he. But hey, which of those ardent, political Brexit leaders is poor, or even of normal middle-class status? They are all wealthy cats who don't need to soil their hands doing anything they don't want to do. Job security in the workshop means nothing to them; capital can find a home anywhere in the world it wants to find one. What means everything is ego and that goddam thing about place in history. Even Jack the Ripper got one.
 
I sort of deduce that for those working in the London area and able to vote there, it means they are successful enough to be able to afford to live there. Many in far-flung regions don't have anything like the same earning power which also is geared to the cost of living in their region, so in some ways, everybody born without a silver lisp is still in pretty similar straits: work in London and you have to earn a fortune to afford to live there, leaving you with how much more in actual savings than has your opposite number in a low-cost town? The massive difference happens when you have had enough, sell the expensive house you slaved to buy in London and transfer yourself to the outer world, and at once find yourself immensely richer than those who always lived in that distant place.

As for the UK surviving - it will probably end up doing as the startlingly new face of the European elections is going to force those elected to do: attempt to create new alliances, just as the old structures of medieval Europe alway did. What a helluva lot of trouble folks will have to go through to try and get back to some form of what they already had.

Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #223 on: May 28, 2019, 05:00:06 pm »

Why trust non-British Europeans to take care of your welfare, people who really don;t care about Brits or anyone else for that matter?  They are only concerned with business interests and an oxymoron of common "European nationalism".  You're giving up your liberty to decide national policies expecting to gain some security from their rule.  Why would you trust them rather then yourselves?  How can your expect EU bureaucrats in Brussels to know or care what the Brits or any other individual nation desires?  And how does local parliamentary rule in each nation override rule from Brussels.  Your PM's in British parliament that you voted for can;t represent you.  The whole mess seems contradictory.

Alan, you are grossly over-imagining the extent or allowed extent of centralised edicts.

What makes you imagine that one's own politicians care one iota more about anyone else than they do of themselves? Turn your eyes to your own country and ask yourself whether your poor are better off than the poor of Europe? I'd rather fall ill in Britain, France, Spain or any of those European Union countries than do so in America! I probably can't even afford to buy the medical insurance for a holiday trip there, should such a trip appeal to me! Take Britain out of that Union and I'm reduced to a life in one country at worst, and perhaps two at most - if Spain feels generous and doesn't kick me out or make me pay what overnight becomes unpayable. And no, I am far from destitute, thanks. Private health insurance, when we quit almost eleven years ago, was rushing me € 3600 p.a. God knows what it would cost me at my age today, if it was even possible to get anyone to offer it. And I am far, far from being alone; it's one unavoidable result of living into old age: you stop being an income and turn into an expenditure, at which moment you are surplus to requirements.

faberryman

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #224 on: May 28, 2019, 06:30:34 pm »

And I am far, far from being alone; it's one unavoidable result of living into old age: you stop being an income and turn into an expenditure, at which moment you are surplus to requirements.
Acutally, it has nothing to do with living into an old age, and everything to do with choosing to live abroad. It would be the same for me if I wanted to retire in the south of France. My Medicare wouldn't follow me.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #225 on: May 28, 2019, 09:09:19 pm »

Alan, you are grossly over-imagining the extent or allowed extent of centralised edicts.

What makes you imagine that one's own politicians care one iota more about anyone else than they do of themselves? Turn your eyes to your own country and ask yourself whether your poor are better off than the poor of Europe? I'd rather fall ill in Britain, France, Spain or any of those European Union countries than do so in America! I probably can't even afford to buy the medical insurance for a holiday trip there, should such a trip appeal to me! Take Britain out of that Union and I'm reduced to a life in one country at worst, and perhaps two at most - if Spain feels generous and doesn't kick me out or make me pay what overnight becomes unpayable. And no, I am far from destitute, thanks. Private health insurance, when we quit almost eleven years ago, was rushing me € 3600 p.a. God knows what it would cost me at my age today, if it was even possible to get anyone to offer it. And I am far, far from being alone; it's one unavoidable result of living into old age: you stop being an income and turn into an expenditure, at which moment you are surplus to requirements.


Health care has nothing to do with this.  The EU rules on immigration are paramount, apparently.  Individual countries have little to say.  This area seems to be the biggest bone of contention for Brexiteers, Italians, etc. It effects minimum wages, who works especially at the lower end, and most importantly effects the traditional makeup of each country's heritage.  Even here in America, a country of immigrants, immigration issues have become major political arguments.  I can imagine how sensitive heritage is in nations of Europe where immigration had heretofore been a minor happenstance. 

Rhossydd

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #226 on: May 29, 2019, 01:54:38 am »

Health care has nothing to do with this.  The EU rules on immigration are paramount, apparently.
Health care, it's funding and how it's accessed, is right at the centre of the brexit debate.
If you don't understand this maybe you should refrain from further comments on the issue.
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jeremyrh

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #227 on: May 29, 2019, 03:26:24 am »

The EU rules on immigration are paramount, apparently.  Individual countries have little to say.

This is not true, despite what you might hear from the various pro-Brexit demagogues. Individual countries are free to impose a wide range of controls on immigration. One of the issues is that Britain CHOSE NOT TO.
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jeremyrh

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #228 on: May 29, 2019, 03:28:52 am »

Health care has nothing to do with this. 

Brexiteer-in-chief Nigel Farage proposes that post-Brexit the UK health care system be run via insurance. He is bankrolled by Arron Banks, a wealthy man with various connections to Russia and the owner of ... insurance companies! Surprise !!!
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jeremyrh

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #229 on: May 29, 2019, 03:41:58 am »

I was thinking about local entrepreneurs. For example, a local constructioncompany. They already have the infrastructure in place to hire e.g. carpenters depending on project availability. Poland happens to have extremely cheap yet very capable carpenters and constructionworkers. It's very easy for company owners to reap the benefit of freedom of movement, while a local craftsman with no desire or even ability to run a company of his own is now facing a rather unbalanced form of competition.

The money that those Polish craftsmen earn does not suffice to do anything beneficial in the UK itself and generally travels straight back home to the family in Poland. For the record I would like to add that the price of real estate doesn't seem to have suffered any downward trend as a result of cheaper construction options, if I may say so with the greatest possible restrained sarcasme.

My own anecdotal evidence is that Polish workmen show up on time, do a good job, clean up after themselves and don't charge a King's ransom, while Polish professionals are well educated and conscientious.  The money they earn is taxed and what is left is spent in shops, as well as sent home, as you say.
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #230 on: May 29, 2019, 03:52:21 am »

The number you cite is for the total pro-Brexit vote and includes N. Ireland, Scotland, and Wales all of whom voted against leaving but they of course get swamped out by the much larger English population.  This is according to the official votes as reported by the BBC.

It's often a good idea to look at sources before citing them. Wales voted to leave by a larger margin than the UK as a whole, as reported by the BBC.

Jeremy
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32BT

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #231 on: May 29, 2019, 04:42:17 am »

My own anecdotal evidence is that Polish workmen show up on time, do a good job, clean up after themselves and don't charge a King's ransom, while Polish professionals are well educated and conscientious.  The money they earn is taxed and what is left is spent in shops, as well as sent home, as you say.

Absolutely, and mind you, I have nothing against Poland or its people.

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Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #232 on: May 29, 2019, 05:02:30 am »

Acutally, it has nothing to do with living into an old age, and everything to do with choosing to live abroad. It would be the same for me if I wanted to retire in the south of France. My Medicare wouldn't follow me.

My reference is to private medical care: insurance. That was what was costing € 3600 in the last year of keeping it. Age, of course, is the factor that usually kills off your earning ability, mine being photography dependent. I thought I had that one covered with stock, but it turned out to be a false sense of security. Age is also the time when nature makes you more dependent on medical care. I had two heart attacks on private medicine care after hitting 65, and my late wife several cancer ops.

Chosing to live abroad is not a sin, though there is the mindset that sees it as exactly that, and to make it worse, an escape from an environment many others, could they but, would gladly opt to make as well. Inevitably, this raises envy and associated hatreds.

Your Medicare is a separate issue: as far as I can tell, you were never in an international arrangement where such was possible; we were and, for the time being, still are. As you raised it first, I feel I must ask the question: given similar choices, would the South of France not perhaps have felt to be an attractive option, whether or not you chose actually to take it up?

That is a very important aspect of the entire mess: everyone in Britain, had they wanted to, had that opportunity for mobility and thousands enjoy its fruits every day. Now, that will probably be rescinded, and for what? For the satisfaction of a bunch of bigoted, self-serving and lying politicians seeking their place in the history books; you must understand that in Britain, every outgoing prime minister is saddled with media assessments of his/her legacy: it has become a parlour game. What is legacy? Apart from Churchill and, possibly, Thatcher, few latter day ones have actually made any real, positive mark on the national destiny.

Do you think Farage or Boris would turn their miserable backs on a place in that historical archive, even as lowly and negative a one as Guy Fawkes?

As for the financial benefits of leaving - there are none. Existing trade must inevitably suffer, jobs in manufacturing lost if only because of the system of parts being shipped to and fro across open borders in just-in-time manufacturing work flows. When borders reappear, customs controls re-established, checks made on everything (otherwise, what's the point of them?) that passes, it becomes counter-productive and expensive having factories spead across a continent. Anybody imagine the work will suddenly be concentrated within an external, and small part of the market? Unbelievably, there are guys in British car plants thinking exactly that. Well, they were, until recent Japanes decisions changed the landscape, but instead of accepting they were mistaken they now say hey, let them go! We will survive! Producing exactly what, may I ask?

It is impossible to get into any branch of this topic without being affected by the ramifications of each such on all of the rest.

Mega mess.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2019, 05:44:33 am by Rob C »
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jeremyrh

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #233 on: May 29, 2019, 05:22:32 am »


Your Medicare is a separate issue: as far as I can tell, you were never in an international arrangement where such was possible; we were and, for the time being, still are. As you raised it fist, I feel I must ask the question: given similar choices, would the South of France not perhaps have felt to be an attractive option, whether or not you chose actually to take it up?

The analogy is sort of - what if retired people in Florida suddenly found that they had no right to live there, and no medical coverage there, and were expected to return home to Michigan, or wherever?
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Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #234 on: May 29, 2019, 05:48:46 am »

The analogy is sort of - what if retired people in Florida suddenly found that they had no right to live there, and no medical coverage there, and were expected to return home to Michigan, or wherever?

Very good one!

And that it was brought about because if a bunch of leaders looking to join the list of notables such as Lincoln, not even on merit, but  just via notoriety. Not about to raise any diversionary, ginger herrings here, but you know what I mean.

Rob

Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #235 on: May 29, 2019, 06:10:36 am »

Health care has nothing to do with this.  The EU rules on immigration are paramount, apparently.  Individual countries have little to say.  This area seems to be the biggest bone of contention for Brexiteers, Italians, etc. It effects minimum wages, who works especially at the lower end, and most importantly effects the traditional makeup of each country's heritage.  Even here in America, a country of immigrants, immigration issues have become major political arguments.  I can imagine how sensitive heritage is in nations of Europe where immigration had heretofore been a minor happenstance.

Dream on, invent your own distant version of British reality.

The biggest lie and most powerful slogan that the Brexiteer camp put foward during the lead to the vote was this: leaving the European Community would deliver 350 million pounds per week to the British National Health Service.

On the day - or the one following - that they'd won their f1/50mm DOF @ 3ft-slim majority, Farage admitted that claim had been a "mistake". (I will never accept that admission was for any other reason than to stick it into the eye of the opposite camp, letting them know, publicly, they'd been beaten by a lie. Irresistible.) Along with xenophobia led by posters showing queues of non-white people marching towards the camera, also fibs, as those migrants never made our shores, other than a few poor sods risking life under trucks - illegal migrants, please note - the entire thing was based on exciting the emotion of fear of invasion, one more deadly than one by strength of arms.

Ironically, the same camp now accuses those who point out the industrial chaos that must ensue if Brexit happens, especially without a deal, of being fear-mongers!

I smell the morality of the abattoir.

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #236 on: May 29, 2019, 08:34:10 am »

My reference is to private medical care: insurance. That was what was costing € 3600 in the last year of keeping it. Age, of course, is the factor that usually kills off your earning ability, mine being photography dependent. I thought I had that one covered with stock, but it turned out to be a false sense of security. Age is also the time when nature makes you more dependent on medical care. I had two heart attacks on private medicine care after hitting 65, and my late wife several cancer ops.

Chosing to live abroad is not a sin, though there is the mindset that sees it as exactly that, and to make it worse, an escape from an environment many others, could they but, would gladly opt to make as well. Inevitably, this raises envy and associated hatreds.

Your Medicare is a separate issue: as far as I can tell, you were never in an international arrangement where such was possible; we were and, for the time being, still are. As you raised it first, I feel I must ask the question: given similar choices, would the South of France not perhaps have felt to be an attractive option, whether or not you chose actually to take it up?
Our Medicare program only covers health care in the US.  If I decide to become an ex-pat and move to the South of France, I am not covered.  Additionally, Medicare does not cover everything and one needs to purchase supplemental insurance to minimize costs.  Medicare is also not free!!!  There are deductibles and co-pays AND a monthly premium that is based on one's retirement earnings.  The cost to my wife and I for our Medicare, pharmaceutical coverage, and supplemental insurance is about $15K/year ---- not exactly cheap.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #237 on: May 29, 2019, 08:35:52 am »

It's often a good idea to look at sources before citing them. Wales voted to leave by a larger margin than the UK as a whole, as reported by the BBC.

Jeremy
Yup, my mistake.  It's interesting that all of Scotland voted to remain as did most of the major metro areas in England.  I don't know if they have granular data, but it would be interesting to know the breakdown between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland.
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jeremyrh

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #238 on: May 29, 2019, 09:27:46 am »

Wales voted to leave by a larger margin than the UK as a whole

Strange considering how much EU cash is pumped into Wales. Still, worse things happened in WWII as they keep reminding us, so I'm sure the people will be happy with their choice. Chin up, lads!!
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jeremyrh

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #239 on: May 29, 2019, 09:30:13 am »

Yup, my mistake.  It's interesting that all of Scotland voted to remain as did most of the major metro areas in England.  I don't know if they have granular data, but it would be interesting to know the breakdown between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland.
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/02/21/in-northern-ireland-there-is-a-strong-division-in-how-different-ethno-national-groups-voted-in-the-referendum/

Basically Catholic = Remain, Protestant = marginally Leave
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