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Author Topic: Brexit Encore  (Read 149728 times)

jeremyrh

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #200 on: May 28, 2019, 10:05:57 am »

For whom?


For the country as a whole. If the central govt chooses to trouser that money rather than invest it in say, hospitals and schools, or invest in business, that's another matter, which can be addressed without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
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32BT

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #201 on: May 28, 2019, 10:12:34 am »

For the country as a whole. If the central govt chooses to trouser that money rather than invest it in say, hospitals and schools, or invest in business, that's another matter, which can be addressed without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

No, not at all. It leads to a wider divide between the haves and have nots. The cheaper craftsmen from the poorer nations benefit from the freedom of movement because they can significantly undercut the local prices in the richer nations. This leads to cheaper prices, but at the same time the average local craftsperson loses his job. The only people benefiting are company owners who hired that cheaper labor and do EU subsidised government contracts. Hence, the rich just get richer, the poor no longer manage to make ends meet.

And yes, that was a generalisation by example, but illustrates the source of unrest reasonably well, imo.
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jeremyrh

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #202 on: May 28, 2019, 10:23:14 am »

No, not at all. It leads to a wider divide between the haves and have nots. The cheaper craftsmen from the poorer nations benefit from the freedom of movement because they can significantly undercut the local prices in the richer nations. This leads to cheaper prices, but at the same time the average local craftsperson loses his job. The only people benefiting are company owners who hired that cheaper labor and do EU subsidised government contracts. Hence, the rich just get richer, the poor no longer manage to make ends meet.

And yes, that was a generalisation by example, but illustrates the source of unrest reasonably well, imo.

The unrest arises because the govt does not address the impact of the new labour. If some of the economic windfall were used to create new opportunities for local people, the problem would not arise. Also, of course, those immigrants also create jobs and spend money.  This is really the heart of the support for brexit, isn't it? - poor areas have been systematically neglected by the Tory govt; as usual, immigrants are a scapegoat.
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faberryman

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #203 on: May 28, 2019, 11:31:19 am »

No, not at all. It leads to a wider divide between the haves and have nots. The cheaper craftsmen from the poorer nations benefit from the freedom of movement because they can significantly undercut the local prices in the richer nations. This leads to cheaper prices, but at the same time the average local craftsperson loses his job. The only people benefiting are company owners who hired that cheaper labor and do EU subsidised government contracts. Hence, the rich just get richer, the poor no longer manage to make ends meet. And yes, that was a generalisation by example, but illustrates the source of unrest reasonably well, imo.
This is where the overall general benefit is outweighed by a direct detriment with some (many) voters. The policy drives down prices but drives down wages as well.
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kers

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #204 on: May 28, 2019, 12:35:29 pm »

I don't think I have heard a real solution how to address the problem of the North-Irish Border?
Has any one here a workable solution?


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Rhossydd

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #205 on: May 28, 2019, 12:51:43 pm »

I don't think I have heard a real solution how to address the problem of the North-Irish Border?
Has any one here a workable solution?
It's pretty simple, both sides stay in the EU (along with the rest of the UK). It's provided a lot of stability and peace in recent years. It's also the most acceptable solution to both countries now.

It really is only a minority of 'little Englanders' that want brexit.
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Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #206 on: May 28, 2019, 01:13:58 pm »

I don't think I have heard a real solution how to address the problem of the North-Irish Border?
Has any one here a workable solution?

You can't resolve it unless one country that is within the Union is allowed, by both sides, to become an open border to all the things that have poured through open borders everywhere. If one country does that, then all of them with borders beyond the European Union will demand to be exceptions too, breaking down the point of it all: the binding together in mutual interest that will prevent WW3 starting up in Europe, as did #2 and #1. A brief history check shows the frequency of earlier wars there has been insane.

The only solution that could resolve the N.Ireland issue in its Brexit context would be for NI to turn back the clock and rejoin the south. I believe that the rest of the UK would hold street parties.

The fact that both Europe and the UK government understand the impasse is why there could be no further give and take in negotiations. The fact that the 'teers don't care is measure of the madness in their stance.

Regarding Poles: I have known beauties; Russian models hsve been amongst the most beautiful in this world. My wife and I walked down a local street here in Mallorca trying to guess the nationality of the noisy, unintelligible couple in front of us. Eventually, we realised they were English murdering English! Says it all, perhaps. Maybe they were from England's eastern counties? :-)

Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #207 on: May 28, 2019, 01:15:00 pm »

It's pretty simple, both sides stay in the EU (along with the rest of the UK). It's provided a lot of stability and peace in recent years. It's also the most acceptable solution to both countries now.

It really is only a minority of 'little Englanders' that want brexit.

That is the ideal solution, for which I would vote.

Rhossydd

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #208 on: May 28, 2019, 01:20:42 pm »

That is the ideal solution, for which I would vote.
Significantly, it's what they voted for too.
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #209 on: May 28, 2019, 01:38:26 pm »

It really is only a minority of 'little Englanders' that want brexit.

If 17.1m is but a minority of "little Englanders" (a sneering, derogatory term), there must be an awful lot of them somewhere.

Jeremy
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #210 on: May 28, 2019, 01:38:30 pm »

Significantly, it's what they voted for too.
Quite right as the voting results by country within the UK well demonstrated:  https://www.bbc.com/news/politics/eu_referendum/results  One is left to wonder if a Hard Brexit goes through whether the UK will survive.  Scotland has already had one vote for independence and it's easy to see another coming up quickly.  The Irish on both sides of the Island's border want it to remain open.  Don't know much about the sentiment in Wales.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #211 on: May 28, 2019, 01:42:13 pm »

If 17.1m is but a minority of "little Englanders" (a sneering, derogatory term), there must be an awful lot of them somewhere.

Jeremy
The number you cite is for the total pro-Brexit vote and includes N. Ireland, Scotland, and Wales all of whom voted against leaving but they of course get swamped out by the much larger English population.  This is according to the official votes as reported by the BBC.
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Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #212 on: May 28, 2019, 02:47:55 pm »

Who’s to say they aren’t? That’s exactly the kind or elitist, patronizing, and condescending attitude that drives people to Brexit - telling them how they must feel. If they feel they are, they are, rightly or wrongly (in your or my opinion). Besides, it is the immigration from outside the E.U. that matters more today.


Exactly, Slobodan, and that immigration has nothing to do with being within Europe! It's a popular fallacy as well as potent political ammunition to conflate; Britain isn't even party to the Schengen deal. No European country really wants them; the trick is in being honest enough to tell them to stay at home and fight their own domestic fights rather than escape and resolve nothing back at their own ranch. However appealing that may be to governments, they can't, because of the way it would be presented and distorted at home, and another party of a diferent colour would attack on that front, whilst privately thanking God somebody else had done it for them.

Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #213 on: May 28, 2019, 03:09:07 pm »

No, not at all. It leads to a wider divide between the haves and have nots. The cheaper craftsmen from the poorer nations benefit from the freedom of movement because they can significantly undercut the local prices in the richer nations. This leads to cheaper prices, but at the same time the average local craftsperson loses his job. The only people benefiting are company owners who hired that cheaper labor and do EU subsidised government contracts. Hence, the rich just get richer, the poor no longer manage to make ends meet.

And yes, that was a generalisation by example, but illustrates the source of unrest reasonably well, imo.


Well, price of labour issues are double-sided weapons. Unions have fought for generations to reach some reasonable consensus on wages for those mainly blue-collar skills, and if employers were obliged to recruit and pay at set, industry-wide rates, things would become acceptable and accent irrelevant. Thing is, you could then discover that buying strawberries becomes too expensive for your wallet or mine, that going to hospital meant a family member had to come with you and make your bed, change your dressings and clean out your bedpan; many hotels and restaurants would then have to become Michelin-priced and still serve up slop.

The rich getting richer depends largely on where you draw the line defining richness. If you mean big companies, they take big risks, too, and create the work that employs the rest of us less gifted in the art of making money. Nobody got rich by being stupid, and that includes lottery winners, for they at least understood that you had to be in it to win it.

If you refer to the Facebook moguls, then thank those who use their services: I never have, so their activities remains outside my sphere of interest beyond the fact that I disagree with their platforms that permit communications between criminals. Their taxes, however, should be paid wherever they raise the revenue.

Rhossydd

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #214 on: May 28, 2019, 03:18:45 pm »

"little Englanders" (a sneering, derogatory term
Well if 'derogatory' many of them wouldn't see it that way. They're loud and proud about their 'Englishness'.
Quote
If 17.1m is but a minority of
A lot of that number have either died, given up or realised their error. More people petitioned for revoking brexit than voted for the brexit 'party'

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Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #215 on: May 28, 2019, 03:37:47 pm »

So you're willing to give up your vote for some perceived advantage?

It was the American patriot Benjamin Franklin who said that "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Alan, it must be the time difference and you are tired: nobody is giving up a vote. If anything, we have more voting opportunities now than ever: we have local elections, national elections and even European elections where we can exercise our franchise. Well, you can extend that to referendums, too, should you feel so inclined.

Throwing red herrings into the mix doesn't help anyone understand the situation any the better.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #216 on: May 28, 2019, 03:45:10 pm »

... As for non-EU immigrants, your view are well-known here, but not really relevant to a discussion of Brexit.

How is it not relevant for Brexit!? It is precisely the influx of non-EU immigrants (or the fear of the future one) that is the main driver behind Brexit.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #217 on: May 28, 2019, 03:50:28 pm »

Exactly, Slobodan, and that immigration has nothing to do with being within Europe!..

Except for Frau Merkel assigning quotas of Trojan Horses to all other EU countries.

32BT

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #218 on: May 28, 2019, 04:01:07 pm »


Well, price of labour issues are double-sided weapons.


I was thinking about local entrepreneurs. For example, a local constructioncompany. They already have the infrastructure in place to hire e.g. carpenters depending on project availability. Poland happens to have extremely cheap yet very capable carpenters and constructionworkers. It's very easy for company owners to reap the benefit of freedom of movement, while a local craftsman with no desire or even ability to run a company of his own is now facing a rather unbalanced form of competition.

The money that those Polish craftsmen earn does not suffice to do anything beneficial in the UK itself and generally travels straight back home to the family in Poland. For the record I would like to add that the price of real estate doesn't seem to have suffered any downward trend as a result of cheaper construction options, if I may say so with the greatest possible restrained sarcasme.



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Alan Klein

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #219 on: May 28, 2019, 04:04:41 pm »

Alan, it must be the time difference and you are tired: nobody is giving up a vote. If anything, we have more voting opportunities now than ever: we have local elections, national elections and even European elections where we can exercise our franchise. Well, you can extend that to referendums, too, should you feel so inclined.

Throwing red herrings into the mix doesn't help anyone understand the situation any the better.

Why trust non-British Europeans to take care of your welfare, people who really don;t care about Brits or anyone else for that matter?  They are only concerned with business interests and an oxymoron of common "European nationalism".  You're giving up your liberty to decide national policies expecting to gain some security from their rule.  Why would you trust them rather then yourselves?  How can your expect EU bureaucrats in Brussels to know or care what the Brits or any other individual nation desires?  And how does local parliamentary rule in each nation override rule from Brussels.  Your PM's in British parliament that you voted for can;t represent you.  The whole mess seems contradictory. 
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