Brexit Encore

[Rhossydd]

Did anyone see the two BBC4 programmes on Brexit, as seen by the fly on the wall on the European side?
Fascinating stuff, revealing the utter lack of comprehension at the reality-denying postures and repeated demands for club benefits without remaining club members.

Agreed, very interesting. It showed just what a shambles the UK government has been over the issue.

Meanwhile on Twitter the brexiters are saying it shows how terrible the EU are being to the UK. It's so sad to see people become so entrenched in a position that they're no longer capable of having any objectivity.

[john beardsworth]

Verhofstadt was in London yesterday and stopped to meet Mr Stop Brexit.

[jeremyrh]

Verhofstadt was in London yesterday and stopped to meet Mr Stop Brexit.

I cant see Verhofstadt's presence on the scene being to anybody's benefit, least of all the Remain side.

https://www.thepressproject.gr/article/62406/Guy-Verhofstadt-the-EU-President-and-the-bid-for-Greek-water

[john beardsworth]

I suspect the TV coverage may affect anti-Brexit voter turnout more than obscure Greek web sites.

[Rob C]

Agreed, very interesting. It showed just what a shambles the UK government has been over the issue.

Meanwhile on Twitter the brexiters are saying it shows how terrible the EU are being to the UK. It's so sad to see people become so entrenched in a position that they're no longer capable of having any objectivity.

But then, where can the UK negotiating side be but in a mess? It understands the madness of the position it's meant to represent, but is stuck with the tiny majority of a vote that pushed it there against its own common sense. Parliament shows how it regrets the silly, emotional voter decision every time it rejects a new dumb deal variant; it simply isn't ready for suicide.

It demonstrates the folly of putting such vital decisions into the hands of the uninformed public - on both sides of that divide. None of us - or almost none of us - has access to documentation and information beyond what we hear on the news, see on tv or read in the partisan, numbers-obsessed press, and hear from politicians betting one side against the other. All we can know for sure is how much we lose by throwing out that baby with all its dirty nappies; we just get left with an empty cot and a dead house.

[Alan Klein]

But then, where can the UK negotiating side be but in a mess? It understands the madness of the position it's meant to represent, but is stuck with the tiny majority of a vote that pushed it there against its own common sense. Parliament shows how it regrets the silly, emotional voter decision every time it rejects a new dumb deal variant; it simply isn't ready for suicide.

It demonstrates the folly of putting such vital decisions into the hands of the uninformed public - on both sides of that divide. None of us - or almost none of us - has access to documentation and information beyond what we hear on the news, see on tv or read in the partisan, numbers-obsessed press, and hear from politicians betting one side against the other. All we can know for sure is how much we lose by throwing out that baby with all its dirty nappies; we just get left with an empty cot and a dead house.

The American founders of our Constitution were so fearful of the common man and their democratic vote, they only gave the individual vote to the selection of representatives to Congress.  Senators were voted by the legislatures of each of the States.  And Electors voted for the president.  The founders knew that if the vote was given to the individuals, they would "break the bank"., which they are in the process of doing since the individual vote was given for Senators and the President when the COnstitution was amended.  Good or bad, we're stuck with it as apparently you are with Brexit. 

So now that May is leaving, where is Britain going?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

..l So now that May is leaving, where is Britain going?

Into June, like everyone else.

[LesPalenik]

Or as the investors say - Sell in May and go away

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

“The Brexit Party came first while explicitly pro-EU parties - the Liberal Democrats, Greens and Change UK - were, combined, a few percentage points behind.”

[Rob C]

“The Brexit Party came first while explicitly pro-EU parties - the Liberal Democrats, Greens and Change UK - were, combined, a few percentage points behind.”

Which explains perfectly why those about to be executed ask for a big last supper.

Rob

[jeremyrh]

“The Brexit Party came first while explicitly pro-EU parties - the Liberal Democrats, Greens and Change UK - were, combined, a few percentage points behind.”

That's sort of what might have been predicted!

[mecrox]

That's sort of what might have been predicted!

Madmen and demagogues. I'm not expecting a happy result to this nightmare. I suspect that in large part it's a problem all Western democracies now face: a substantial rump of ageing voters who will block anything which threatens their way of life even though a changing world has rendered it no longer tenable and coming at the cost of damaging the life chances of everyone else. The next leader of the Conservative Party and therefore the next Prime Minister will be chosen by the party's membership, about 100,000 people with an average age of 72 and a totally unrepresentative demographic. This isn't democracy but extremism.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

That's sort of what might have been predicted!

Really!?

I thought that all that clamoring for a second referendum would result in a crushing defeat for the Leave, no?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

..l This isn't democracy but extremism.

Yes, indeed. Democracy should be redefined. Apparently, the demos has hijacked democracy. Shocking. What democracy needs instead is enlightened, urban, elite Young Turks leading the sheep.

[Alan Klein]

I all seems very democratic to me. There are about 7 or 8 different parties representing all sorts of different viewpoints.  Unlike America where there are only two parties. 

[Alan Klein]

Madmen and demagogues. I'm not expecting a happy result to this nightmare. I suspect that in large part it's a problem all Western democracies now face: a substantial rump of ageing voters who will block anything which threatens their way of life even though a changing world has rendered it no longer tenable and coming at the cost of damaging the life chances of everyone else. The next leader of the Conservative Party and therefore the next Prime Minister will be chosen by the party's membership, about 100,000 people with an average age of 72 and a totally unrepresentative demographic. This isn't democracy but extremism.

The Nation-State trumps Europeanism.  The EU should have stayed an economic and trade compact only  rather than trying to enforce common political standards on everyone without true democratic oversight.   The average German cares little about the average Italian who cares little about the average Spaniard who cares little about....  Each country and patriot want to make their own rules for their nation.

[Alan Klein]

I agree, and even within the like-minded groups of parties, there is no strict discipline that demands unanimous voting behavior on topics, so each member can vote as he/she sees fit. So it's a reasonable 1:1 reflection of the number of popular votes.

Cheers,
Bart

One thing I failed to mention is that while there are two major parties in the US, each of the 50 States are sovereign.  They each have their own constitution,  legislatures, Governors, police departments, military reserves, justice and court systems, criminal and civil penalties, rules and regulations that each state's citizens vote for regarding many of the regular things about how we live day-to-day.  It's more personal.  There are also local ordinances and laws especially in major towns and cities.  Where I live in New Jersey, we recently voted down a bond to pay to build a new local school.  So people feel they have a stake in politics.  That's good for democracy. 

[mecrox]

I all seems very democratic to me. There are about 7 or 8 different parties representing all sorts of different viewpoints.  Unlike America where there are only two parties.

I think you’ve misread my post. That was about the death-grip of the domestic two-party system on the eventual outcome of the Brexit process which will be decided in the British Parliament. The European elections aren’t about that. They are about electing people to a pan-European parliament elsewhere. So where it matters, there are still only two main parties here as in the USA. That may not hold for much longer but it certainly does today.

[jeremyrh]

Really!?

I thought that all that clamoring for a second referendum would result in a crushing defeat for the Leave, no?

More complicated than that - this was not a referendum on a single issue.

[Alan Klein]

I think you’ve misread my post. That was about the death-grip of the domestic two-party system on the eventual outcome of the Brexit process which will be decided in the British Parliament. The European elections aren’t about that. They are about electing people to a pan-European parliament elsewhere. So where it matters, there are still only two main parties here as in the USA. That may not hold for much longer but it certainly does today.

The problem with the pan-European parliament is that you have even less to say about how the gnomes in Zurich decide you should live in your own country.  Their rules often overrule the parliaments in your own country.  How's that democratic?  Citizens often feel the don;t have a stake.  They're so much chattel to the business interests that care less about national borders and their own people.