Brexit Encore

[Rob C]

Here is a metaphor for Brexit:

You know when someone threatens to jump from a tall building but does nothing for too long, the crowd gets bored and starts chanting: "Jump, jump, jump!"

In this case, the crowd doesn't matter. What matters is the person (nation) that's been shoved up there for no good reason.

:-)

[Rob C]

And then someone else finds that person on the pavement as he mutters, "I managed to grab onto the kerbstone, just in time ...".

Cheers,
Bart

Good one; then who comes out and cleans the mess? Maybe Mr Trump after he's shone up his rust belts?

[TonyW]

TBH I was a little surprised that political discussion tolerated on this forum (religion and sex next I hope  ) and while I had seen a post of someone's opinion about Brexit some time ago I decided not to participate as this sort of thing invariably ends up in tears.

Still, opinion has been expressed and so feel that it is only right and fair that I express my opinion which seems to be in opposition to others views here.

Maybe my opinion would be different if I was not a British citizen living in Britain.  For instance, an expat living in a country that is currently part of the EU or any other individual from any country outside of Britain.  It is certainly feasible that living in a country that wanted to remain in the EU could colour my views.

As to Australia making comment then how is this any different to the above?

As far as Ireland goes this should really be an Irish decision to enforce a hard border or not.  What I can say is that as a Brit who has worked from time to time in Northern Ireland during and after the troubles if a hard wall is built it will come down if it is the will of a section of the population.

Like it or not we are supposed to be living in a democracy.   The population of Great Britain is said to be around 65 million.  Of this 46,500,001 (this is accurate as I was the ,001  ) were registered voters.  Total votes cast said to be 33,577,342 representing 72.21% of those allowed to vote

So we as a democratic country had a free vote and voted to leave.  None of this helped by selfish (or according to some cowardly) prime minister that deserted his post representing the people because we did not agree with him urging us to stay - It's my game and I am taking my ball home - a bloody disgrace!  Leaving us with a woman that also wanted to remain but at least had the balls to attempt to represent the democratic vote.

Some argue by a small majority of just less than 4% – so what!   
Where and when was it stated that the majority had to reach a certain percentage?

Want another referendum then what rules need be applied?
Total number of voters must exceed 90% of the voting public – more or less than this?
What must the percentage margin be before the vote could be ratified, 5%, 10%, 15%, 20%, more?
What should happen when the vote does not go your or my way?
  Keep on bleating until such time as a new referendum conducted?
or
  Accept the will of the majority?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

...lHe has Nigel Farage to do his stirring in the UK, Viktor Orban in Hungary, Marie Le Pen in France, etc.

Divide and conquer ...

They are actually uniting, didn’t you hear?

[mecrox]

Populism only thrives if there is someone else to blame, and it crumbles into a mess when they become too powerful themselves with nobody to blame but their own policies. Bannon knows that, and that's the kind of chaos he is after.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Movement_(populist_group)

Cheers,
Bart

Well said. These people pop up from time to time throughout history. They create utter chaos then they disappear. Bannon, Farage and co are a perfect fit for the breed. There won’t be any achievements, no legacy or political parties after they’ve vanished,  just the bill for the damage.

[Robert Roaldi]

TBH I was a little surprised that political discussion tolerated on this forum (religion and sex next I hope  ) and while I had seen a post of someone's opinion about Brexit some time ago I decided not to participate as this sort of thing invariably ends up in tears.

Still, opinion has been expressed and so feel that it is only right and fair that I express my opinion which seems to be in opposition to others views here.

Maybe my opinion would be different if I was not a British citizen living in Britain.  For instance, an expat living in a country that is currently part of the EU or any other individual from any country outside of Britain.  It is certainly feasible that living in a country that wanted to remain in the EU could colour my views.

As to Australia making comment then how is this any different to the above?

As far as Ireland goes this should really be an Irish decision to enforce a hard border or not.  What I can say is that as a Brit who has worked from time to time in Northern Ireland during and after the troubles if a hard wall is built it will come down if it is the will of a section of the population.

Like it or not we are supposed to be living in a democracy.   The population of Great Britain is said to be around 65 million.  Of this 46,500,001 (this is accurate as I was the ,001  ) were registered voters.  Total votes cast said to be 33,577,342 representing 72.21% of those allowed to vote

So we as a democratic country had a free vote and voted to leave.  None of this helped by selfish (or according to some cowardly) prime minister that deserted his post representing the people because we did not agree with him urging us to stay - It's my game and I am taking my ball home - a bloody disgrace!  Leaving us with a woman that also wanted to remain but at least had the balls to attempt to represent the democratic vote.

Some argue by a small majority of just less than 4% – so what!   
Where and when was it stated that the majority had to reach a certain percentage?

Want another referendum then what rules need be applied?
Total number of voters must exceed 90% of the voting public – more or less than this?
What must the percentage margin be before the vote could be ratified, 5%, 10%, 15%, 20%, more?
What should happen when the vote does not go your or my way?
  Keep on bleating until such time as a new referendum conducted?
or
  Accept the will of the majority?

I think it's pretty self-evident from what has happened since the referendum that things are not as clear-cut as you state. Leaving aside all the comments from ex-pats and Australians, is there any indication that the British themselves have a good handle on the situation?

[TonyW]

I think it's pretty self-evident from what has happened since the referendum that things are not as clear-cut as you state. Leaving aside all the comments from ex-pats and Australians, is there any indication that the British themselves have a good handle on the situation?

What is self evident is political obfuscation, avoidance and patronisation and maybe even fear for some political has beens.  What we did witness was a kind of feeding frenzy at the first signs of potential weakness of the leader of the pack with pack members struggling to gain power and  bring the leader down.  And of course the expected rhetoric from the opposition.  All of this serving to distract from the will of the populace

I believe the British do have a good handle on the situation and this is the second time we have voted stay or leave the first being 1975 (2+ years after joining) resulting in a stay vote of 67%.  This time with much longer experience the vote went the other way and needs to be honoured to restore at least some faith in the political system and democracy
It is a great shame that the remoaners feel they have to resort to calling out racism or claiming that the public do not understand or are just ignorant of the facts. Or try and offer a discriminatory ageist rant - as an old fart (over 50) I object to that in particular 

It is also self evident that the Eurocrats are more than a little scared that Britain leaving without severe penalties being applied may encourage others to follow a similar route - where and how would they earn their crust is bound to be a huge concern. 

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Movement_(populist_group)

As of when has Wikipedia become an arbiter of truth and objectivity? An article written from a left-wing perspective, like the one above, certainly isn’t.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... It is a great shame that the remoaners feel they have to resort to calling out racism or claiming that the public do not understand or are just ignorant of the facts. Or try and offer a discriminatory ageist rant - as an old fart (over 50) I object to that in particular  ...

 

Brilliant term, whoever invented it.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

From the horse's mouth then:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVArY-ZxD_Y

From the comments section

[Robert Roaldi]

What is self evident is political obfuscation, avoidance and patronisation and maybe even fear for some political has beens.  What we did witness was a kind of feeding frenzy at the first signs of potential weakness of the leader of the pack with pack members struggling to gain power and  bring the leader down.  And of course the expected rhetoric from the opposition.  All of this serving to distract from the will of the populace

I believe the British do have a good handle on the situation and this is the second time we have voted stay or leave the first being 1975 (2+ years after joining) resulting in a stay vote of 67%.  This time with much longer experience the vote went the other way and needs to be honoured to restore at least some faith in the political system and democracy
It is a great shame that the remoaners feel they have to resort to calling out racism or claiming that the public do not understand or are just ignorant of the facts. Or try and offer a discriminatory ageist rant - as an old fart (over 50) I object to that in particular 

It is also self evident that the Eurocrats are more than a little scared that Britain leaving without severe penalties being applied may encourage others to follow a similar route - where and how would they earn their crust is bound to be a huge concern.

If everything is so clear, shouldn't they have come up with a exit deal by now?

[Jeremy Roussak]

If everything is so clear, shouldn't they have come up with a exit deal by now?

It takes two sides to make a deal. Perhaps the reason is that the EU, and in particular France, have decided not to enter into any semi-reasonable deal to avoid others following our course. Punishment pour encourager les autres.

Jeremy

[Jeremy Roussak]

TBH I was a little surprised that political discussion tolerated on this forum (religion and sex next I hope  )

I've never banned discussions of either topic: I've never felt the need, as there haven't been any of any significance.

Jeremy

[Rhossydd]

The population of Great Britain is said to be around 65 million.

So just over a quarter of the population wanted to leave then. Not really a convincing majority really.
Also there are millions of UK citizens living outside the UK for whom brexit may make significant differences to their lives weren't eligible to vote.

None of this helped by selfish (or according to some cowardly) prime minister that deserted his post representing the people because we did not agree with him urging us to stay

In many ways Cameron quitting was the honourable thing to do. He didn't think leaving was good for the UK, neither did his government, the opposition or the civil service.

This leads us to a ridiculous aspect of the referendum. The organisation campaigning to leave had no power to implement it and never had any cohesive plan of how we'd leave or on what terms. They made outrageous claims and lied to try to sway gulible voters.
Never had a pro-brexit party managed to get more than a single MP elected.

Where and when was it stated that the majority had to reach a certain percentage?

That a simple first past the post result was a 'result' is one of the key reasons why the referendum was such a disaster.

If you manage to have a reasoned discussion with a pro-brexit supporter they'll always agree that leaving the EU is far more momentous decision than a general election. If you then suggest that for it to carried out it should need the same strength of opinion as calling an out of routine general election (ie a super majority of two thirds of votes cast) the discussion dies.
Then add that the UK's supreme court ruled that the proven illegalities would have made the referendum void if it had been mandatory.

[TonyW]

It takes two sides to make a deal. Perhaps the reason is that the EU, and in particular France, have decided not to enter into any semi-reasonable deal to avoid others following our course. Punishment pour encourager les autres.

Jeremy

Seems to be a fair assessment as a semi reasonable deal may well cause encouragement.

[TonyW]

So just over a quarter of the population wanted to leave then. Not really a convincing majority really.
Also there are millions of UK citizens living outside the UK for whom brexit may make significant differences to their lives weren't eligible to vote.

No, that is missing the point that the vote was limited to those legally entitled I.e registered and on the electoral roll.  These would have to be at or above voting age, with full British citizenship, which at 70% of the population represents a fairly convincing majority for most.  So really the only telling statistic is that 28% of the population able to legally vote did not deem the EU debacle worth voting on.  Thereby leaving the remaining 72% with the choice, that choice clear fir all to see.  Even a landslide vote, say 67% to leave would still not have satisfied the remoaners as will always be the case.

It is true that there are many U.K. citizens living outside the U.K. that are not entitled to vote, however there is good reason to draw up limits.  A court challenge by two expats lead to a ruling by the courts of a cut off period with the judges stating “extended residence abroad might indicate a weakening of ties with the United Kingdom”.  However it is my understanding that the vote did extend to U.K. nationals living abroad who have been on the electoral register in the last 15 years.

 

In many ways Cameron quitting was the honourable thing to do. He didn't think leaving was good for the UK, neither did his government, the opposition or the civil service.

In many ways a man of honesty and integrity would have stayed the course and perhaps after voicing his disappointment at his view being overuled would have honoured his commitment to the country that had faith to vote him in.  It is not “his” government,it is OURS.

I do agree that this whole thing has been handled poorly and should have been resolved by now.  The culprits being those jostling fir power and money over the best interest of the U.K. or their own personal interest as member EU representatives. 

Due to intransigence on all sides I fear we may be heading for a No Deal scenario

[Rob C]

So just over a quarter of the population wanted to leave then. Not really a convincing majority really.
Also there are millions of UK citizens living outside the UK for whom brexit may make significant differences to their lives weren't eligible to vote.
In many ways Cameron quitting was the honourable thing to do. He didn't think leaving was good for the UK, neither did his government, the opposition or the civil service.

This leads us to a ridiculous aspect of the referendum. The organisation campaigning to leave had no power to implement it and never had any cohesive plan of how we'd leave or on what terms. They made outrageous claims and lied to try to sway gulible voters.
Never had a pro-brexit party managed to get more than a single MP elected.
That a simple first past the post result was a 'result' is one of the key reasons why the referendum was such a disaster.

If you manage to have a reasoned discussion with a pro-brexit supporter they'll always agree that leaving the EU is far more momentous decision than a general election. If you then suggest that for it to carried out it should need the same strength of opinion as calling an out of routine general election (ie a super majority of two thirds of votes cast) the discussion dies.
Then add that the UK's supreme court ruled that the proven illegalities would have made the referendum void if it had been mandatory.

That's best, cool and unemotional statement so far.

That the thing was conducted under information that was false, known to be false when offered, yet those who swallowed it hook, line and sinker, can't accept that truth even today when it stares them in the face.

The economy, some claim, didn't fall off any cliff; of course not, we are still in that union. The cliff looms if/when we are over it.

Reduced to the most simple of terms: being the little guy in this world is never a good idea. We are a great(ish) economy precisely because of our markets within the union. Does anyone imagine Oz, NZ, India et al. have short memories?

How innocent yet dangerous some people are with their beliefs in shaking international hands, air-kissing and being back to the old days... I know yachties who found themselves down in the southern waters and their reports of love for the Poms are very different to fond imaginings.

Rob

[Robert Roaldi]

It takes two sides to make a deal. Perhaps the reason is that the EU, and in particular France, have decided not to enter into any semi-reasonable deal to avoid others following our course. Punishment pour encourager les autres.

Jeremy

I was thinking more of the failure to achieve agreement about a deal within the British parliament itself. Haven't there been 3 votes so far (or was it only 2)? I've kind of lost track.

I think that the overall confusion and parliamentary failures to proceed are a measure of how complex an issue this is, which argues against making a go/nogo decision based on a 50% + 1 referendum whose conduct was tainted by Facebook and other social media propaganda. On the face of it, that interference casts some doubt on the outcome, making it a little risky to simply proceed. Wouldn't sober second thought be in everyone's interests? The fates of millions of people are at stake and the ramifications will show themselves over more than one generation. What exactly is the rush?

[Rhossydd]

Even a landslide vote, say 67% to leave would still not have satisfied the remoaners as will always be the case.

If you want a reasoned, respectful debate you'll need to stop using derogatory language about people whose opinions differ to your own.

No one would have had grounds to disagree if the referendum had a convincing majority, but it simply didn't.
Add to that the leave campaign was illegally funded and that illegality is quite likely to have swung enough people to change the result.*

I fail to understand why many more people aren't complaining about how foreign powers might have attacked our democracy through the use of social media and won**. Probably because that attack is continuing***
 

I do agree that this whole thing has been handled poorly and should have been resolved by now.  The culprits being those jostling fir power and money over the best interest of the U.K. or their own personal interest as member EU representatives.

No. The problem lies in that the very question asked was unspecific and too general in nature and there was no government will to implement it.
No one in power seriously thought the country would ever be foolhardy enough to risk a leave vote.****

Due to intransigence on all sides I fear we may be heading for a No Deal scenario

I think you're right to fear the prospect of no deal. I've not read of a single credible suggestion that it will be anything other than a major damaging problem for the UK.
However we're continually told that this was the 'will of the people', even though many in the leave campaign said it would never be a risk.

I've still not read or heard of any overall benefit to the UK from leaving the EU that stands any sort of scrutiny.
The EU is far from a prefect organisation, but we're far better off staying and benefiting from being within and maintaining our influence and ability to influence it's actions.


* https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/vote-leave-referendum-overspending-high-court-brexit-legal-challenge-void-oxford-professor-a8668771.html
** https://www.ted.com/talks/carole_cadwalladr_facebook_s_role_in_brexit_and_the_threat_to_democracy#t-472328
*** https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexspence/hard-brexit-dark-money-links-between-these-secretive
**** https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/finan-otoole-and-james-obrien-on-brexit-1-5789169

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... I fail to understand why many more people aren't complaining about how foreign powers might have attacked our democracy through the use of social media and won...

 

Trump/Brexit Derangement Syndrome at its best (worst?). Sooooo easy to blame somebody else instead of admitting that people wanted what they voted for.