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Author Topic: Newbie (ish) softproof - print issue  (Read 7811 times)

nirpat89

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Re: Newbie (ish) softproof - print issue
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2019, 01:02:03 pm »

I'm using Windows and I'm not finding the issue that Andrew has described with the print dialog preview.  That said, there is no reason to use or trust the print dialog preview anyway, except for positioning of the image on the paper.

Agree.  I normally just glance to make sure the layout is correct and not pay attention to the colors etc. 
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sanfairyanne

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Re: Newbie (ish) softproof - print issue
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2019, 01:11:44 pm »

Smthopr

You wrote:

First, start over from lightroom and open your image in photoshop in prophoto RGB, just to eliminate one variable. (done that)

Second, adjust your image in Photoshop to your liking.

Ready to print?  Now go to view/proof/setup and select your printer profile, but leave the dialog box open. (which dialog box, i assume you mean when I click VIEW>PROOF SETUP>CUSTOM - when I go to view>proof setup I click my icc profile (first attached image)

Did you see any change to the image? Sure, if for instance i try VIEW>MONITOR RGB and toggle between this and my icc profile there's a ton of difference. Certainly the contrast should drop to limited range of the print.  If nothing has changed, make sure that the "preview" check box is checked.  If checked, uncheck it and look for a change.  Nothing?  Check the box again. You should see the application of the softproof change when checking/unchecking this box.  And... make sure you have not selected "absolute colormetric" as the rendering intent by accident! No I'm on PERCEPTUAL

If you have done all this, and there is no change in the image when softproofing, I might suggest deleting and re-installing Photoshop to see if that helps.
I may just try re-installing, though I'm highly dubious that it will solve anything. At the end of the day the soft proof is not looking anything like the finished print, perhaps it's a coincidence that it matches the image in the print dialogue box, perhaps I shouldn't have said that as it just confuses the issue.
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smthopr

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Re: Newbie (ish) softproof - print issue
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2019, 01:19:37 pm »

Smthopr

You wrote:

First, start over from lightroom and open your image in photoshop in prophoto RGB, just to eliminate one variable. (done that)

Second, adjust your image in Photoshop to your liking.

Ready to print?  Now go to view/proof/setup and select your printer profile, but leave the dialog box open. (which dialog box, i assume you mean when I click VIEW>PROOF SETUP>CUSTOM - when I go to view>proof setup I click my icc profile (first attached image)

Did you see any change to the image? Sure, if for instance i try VIEW>MONITOR RGB and toggle between this and my icc profile there's a ton of difference. Certainly the contrast should drop to limited range of the print.  If nothing has changed, make sure that the "preview" check box is checked.  If checked, uncheck it and look for a change.  Nothing?  Check the box again. You should see the application of the softproof change when checking/unchecking this box.  And... make sure you have not selected "absolute colormetric" as the rendering intent by accident! No I'm on PERCEPTUAL

If you have done all this, and there is no change in the image when softproofing, I might suggest deleting and re-installing Photoshop to see if that helps.
I may just try re-installing, though I'm highly dubious that it will solve anything. At the end of the day the soft proof is not looking anything like the finished print, perhaps it's a coincidence that it matches the image in the print dialogue box, perhaps I shouldn't have said that as it just confuses the issue.

Don't check "preserve RGB numbers".

DO check "simulate paper color"!!!
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sanfairyanne

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Re: Newbie (ish) softproof - print issue
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2019, 01:30:59 pm »

smthopr,

I am pretty sure that when I printed neither box was checked. When I check the box 'simulate paper color' it definitely affects the proof. Do you think that will make the difference?
I guess I need to bite the bullet and try another print.
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nirpat89

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Re: Newbie (ish) softproof - print issue
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2019, 01:55:03 pm »

smthopr,

I am pretty sure that when I printed neither box was checked. When I check the box 'simulate paper color' it definitely affects the proof. Do you think that will make the difference?
I guess I need to bite the bullet and try another print.

Judging from how far the two are, I doubt the color paper simulation would make such a big difference (unless you are printing on a yellowish paper.)  You don't need to print the full size image to check another print.  You should see the difference on a smaller size like 4"x5" as well.  I normally trouble-shoot such things by printing a smaller version of the image and reusing the same paper by moving the layout around (via top and left margins.)  That is also a good way to do a side by side comparison of the changes that are made.

What is the display calibration situation with your monitor?  Is this the very first print you have tried to print?  In other words, did you have a history of getting color-correct print before this?

:Niranjan

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sanfairyanne

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Re: Newbie (ish) softproof - print issue
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2019, 02:28:24 pm »

Nirpat89

I will try a smaller less ink wasting print, I actually cut a super A3 in half and did 4 test prints on one, they worked well, they were a great match for the softproof, that was yesterday. I then tried one image on the other half of the paper and that one is the problem print. It's an epsom satin paper, nothing unusual.

The printer was calibrated only yesterday. I'll be back to this soon, (gotta dash for an errand).
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digitaldog

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Re: Newbie (ish) softproof - print issue
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2019, 02:55:46 pm »

Soft proofing in Adobe Photoshop CC

In this 33 minute video, I'll cover soft proofing in Adobe Photoshop CC:
What is sof proofing.
Setting up a soft proof.
Saving soft proof presets.
What the simluate ink and paper check boxes do, why to use them.
Making output specific edits in layer sets.
Working with soft proofing in full screen mode.
The Out of Gamut Overlay and why to ignore it.

High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/SoftProofingInPhotoshopCC.mp4
Low resolution (YouTube): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njFgYba3lHU&feature=youtu.be
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sanfairyanne

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Re: Newbie (ish) softproof - print issue
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2019, 03:40:28 pm »

Thanks a million digitaldog,

I'm just having my dinner, I'll get to watch your 33min video shortly.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 05:31:01 pm by sanfairyanne »
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sanfairyanne

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Re: Newbie (ish) softproof - print issue
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2019, 05:46:02 pm »

Digitaldog,

I watched your video three times, created the presets etc i.e perceptual, colorimetric, perceptual simulate, colorimetric simulate. I've gone through things as best I can. It's too late in the evening to continue, so I'll get back to this with a small test print tomorrow. I'm tempted also to just try a test print directly from Lightroom - obviously using the same icc profile, it would be interesting to see what comes of that option.

Many thanks for your help.
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smthopr

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Re: Newbie (ish) softproof - print issue
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2019, 05:55:20 pm »

smthopr,

I am pretty sure that when I printed neither box was checked. When I check the box 'simulate paper color' it definitely affects the proof. Do you think that will make the difference?
I guess I need to bite the bullet and try another print.

Using the soft proof preview does not effect the print, just the way it looks on your display, to simulate how it will look printed.  Generally, it's possible to match your print to the preview (with "paper white" checked), but not possible for your print to match the display, when the preview is turned off.
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faberryman

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Re: Newbie (ish) softproof - print issue
« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2019, 05:56:42 pm »

Digitaldog,

I watched your video three times, created the presets etc i.e perceptual, colorimetric, perceptual simulate, colorimetric simulate. I've gone through things as best I can. It's too late in the evening to continue, so I'll get back to this with a small test print tomorrow. I'm tempted also to just try a test print directly from Lightroom - obviously using the same icc profile, it would be interesting to see what comes of that option.

Many thanks for your help.
Soft proofing seems like a kludge. It seems like it would be better if the ICC profile were applied o the edit screen. What good does it to to edit and then when you soft proof, the colors are different.
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smthopr

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Re: Newbie (ish) softproof - print issue
« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2019, 06:01:06 pm »

Smthopr,

I always try different backgrounds when processing, it's a sensible approach.

You wrote "Perhaps there is a box for "preview" that is not checked?  I'm thinking that your soft proof is not really activated, when you think it is"

If there is a check box I don't know which one, if my soft proof is not really activated I don't know why, tapping command Y toggles the view from softproof on or off (as far as I'm aware). When you've tapped command Y the image title should show the file number followed by the profile like this (below) as mine does - indicating that in this case my image is set up with the icc profile for LumaChromeAcrylic and therefore softproofing is setup correctly.

I just noticed from this post that your profile name is something like "luma-chrome acrylic".  But elsewhere you posted that you're printing on Epson paper.  If I  recall, premium luster paper?  I ask as this is a strange name for a profile for that paper.  Maybe you've selected the incorrect paper profile for your soft proof and/or paper selection in the printer dialog box?
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smthopr

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Re: Newbie (ish) softproof - print issue
« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2019, 06:10:47 pm »

Soft proofing seems like a kludge. It seems like it would be better if the ICC profile were applied o the edit screen. What good does it to to edit and then when you soft proof, the colors are different.

The answer to this is to edit while the soft proof preview is applied.  Then you will be editing to the capabilities of your printer/paper combination. I think this is what you desire.  It's not a kludge because the printer is just not able to print all the colors and contrast that your computer display will show. You are kind of asking "why can't my prints look as bright and colorful as my slides in the projector?"

It will not be unusual to find that you need to make different edits for viewing on a computer display than you will for viewing on a paper print.
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digitaldog

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Re: Newbie (ish) softproof - print issue
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2019, 06:14:21 pm »

Soft proofing seems like a kludge. It seems like it would be better if the ICC profile were applied o the edit screen. What good does it to to edit and then when you soft proof, the colors are different.
Kludge is in your understanding  ;) . The ICC profile is applied to the screen and any edits. One can produce output specific edits BASED on the soft proof IF desired.
The soft proof is also only as good as the soft proofing table in the profile and how well it matches the output table that makes the print (along with your display calibration of course).
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faberryman

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Re: Newbie (ish) softproof - print issue
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2019, 06:21:27 pm »

Kludge is in your understanding  ;) .
No doubt.
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digitaldog

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nirpat89

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Re: Newbie (ish) softproof - print issue
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2019, 07:00:24 pm »

Soft proofing seems like a kludge. It seems like it would be better if the ICC profile were applied o the edit screen. What good does it to to edit and then when you soft proof, the colors are different.

That would make sense if all you want to do is make a print on a particular paper/printer combination.  However, that would preclude that image file for use on the web or print on a different paper and/or printer in the future.  That's why first an image is optimized for the digital presentation without any soft proofing applied.  Save that as a master file.  Then one can layer in any required changes to make the print look the way it should be with the help of soft-proofing.  Save those to a new file for the particular paper/printer combination.  Or save them on the master file with the layer visibility turned off. 

:Niranjan.
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Rand47

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Re: Newbie (ish) softproof - print issue
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2019, 07:07:52 pm »

Soft proofing seems like a kludge. It seems like it would be better if the ICC profile were applied o the edit screen. What good does it to to edit and then when you soft proof, the colors are different.

IF you only wanted to print that file on one printer with one paper, you could edit in proof preview mode.  But that's kinda, like LIMITING.  The whole idea is that you process an image to your liking.  Then you tell Photoshop to "emulate" how it would look going to a specific printer, using a specific paper.  The paper's gamut, and "paper white" impact how your print will look if you "do nothing" to your nice screen image.  Soft proofing is a way to tweak the image so that is looks "proper" on "that printer with that paper" while still preserving your original  file - just in case you want to send it to another output device like a phone or tablet (sRGB) or perhaps even make a print on a "different printer and/or paper."

Here's a personal perspective.  Why in the heck would you soft proof and print out of Photoshop when you can do so from Lightroom, which to my way of thinking is much easier, takes up much less disk space for the virtual copy proof, and where Lightroom does a dandy job of upsampling on the fly for whatever image size you're laying out on whatever size paper you're using - in addition to allowing you to create print "Templates" that store printer driver settings (e.g. having color management turned off) paper size, type, layout, printer / ICC profile, media type, etc.,  all with the press of a single "click?"

All this "especially" since your image started in Lightroom in the first place.  I "tune" most global adjustments (and some local adjustments) in LR, then send off to Photoshop as a smart object (so that I can launch ACR if I want to tweak any of my LR adjustments if I want to) for whatever fine tuning and precise local adjustments I may want to do via e.g. curves layers w/ masks, etc. and other tools.  I have Photoshop return my file to LR w/ "_master.suffix" rather than "edit" in the file name.  From there I go back to LR and soft proof and print.

Give it a shot.

Oh, and also... (and Digital Dog hinted at this), why would you go from a large working color space in LR and potentially dump a bunch of color data by sending to Photoshop as AdobeRGB?  Makes no sense. Set your working color space in Photoshop (and ACR) to ProPhoto, then just do an "Open in Photoshop as a Smart Object" (or just "Edit in" Photoshop if you don't want to use a smart object work flow) from within Lightroom....  Keep all that color data. 

Rand
« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 07:22:42 pm by Rand47 »
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sanfairyanne

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Re: Newbie (ish) softproof - print issue
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2019, 07:15:39 pm »

Smthopr,

You wrote:
I just noticed from this post that your profile name is something like "luma-chrome acrylic".  But elsewhere you posted that you're printing on Epson paper.  If I  recall, premium luster paper?  I ask as this is a strange name for a profile for that paper.  Maybe you've selected the incorrect paper profile for your soft proof and/or paper selection in the printer dialog box?

Well spotted, thanks for properly reading my reply. In answer; I was merely testing another profile. To be honest I knew 'luma chrome acrylic' was an icc profile. I began to have my doubts about the Epsom printer/paper profile. I'm actually borrowing someone else's equipment so I only had their word for it that their Epsom profile was correct. It's nearly midnight here in the UK so I'm going to have to get back to this tomorrow.
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sanfairyanne

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Re: Newbie (ish) softproof - print issue
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2019, 07:33:50 pm »

Rand47,

Sorry as it's almost midnight here I'm having to rush my reply. I've changed Lightroom preferences to export from LR to Photoshop from Adobe RGB to ProPhoto. I'll try your suggestion for working with a smart object in Photoshop. I think though that by doing that (tell me if I'm wrong) this essentially only helps if I want to go back and forth from Photoshop to ACR and back (perhaps multiple times) without breaking down levels?
In other words the fact that I didn't work as a smart object shouldn't make such a noticeable difference for my current soft proofed print.
I get what you're saying about working with LR to create my print and tomorrow I'm going to try printing from LR just to see if it works out. I guess I'd like to get to the bottom of the issue with Photoshop, I don't want to be beaten by something. Plus it does get tiring when you've spent countless hours using one software package only to be told by someone that you should use another.
Just to prove my LR external edits are prophoto here's a screen grab. I'll be back to this first thing in the morning.
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