Post by: sanfairyanne on March 19, 2019, 09:37:34 am
Incidentally via a Google search I can see that someone else has had exactly the same problem: https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/photoshop-soft-proof-does-not-match-print-preview
There are only two replies, one suggests going to this forum! the other suggests I try >Try changing PS Preferences> Performance> Graphics Processor Settings> Advanced Settings> Drawing Mode> Basic.
This has absolutely no affect for me.
Post by: HarveyM43 on March 19, 2019, 10:39:01 am
1. My understanding is LR uses an single colorspace to work - kinda ‘ProPhoto like’
What you’re doing is exporting as a ProPhoto image. (why not export as Adobe RGB?)
2. Converting is probem-some. In PhotoShop you can assign a color space or convert to a color space. If you assign the color number stays the same, and the color appearance changes; for instance 94,62,233 prophoto is bright blue in AdobeRGB it's more purple. Convert translates the color appearance from one space to the other (keeping the color as close as possible).
3. If you print your soft-proof it goes through the printer profile twice (not completely accurate, but close enough), once on the image and once in the printer driver. Turn off the soft-proof to print.
Post by: sanfairyanne on March 19, 2019, 10:50:58 am
I'm willing to try your suggestion, but how do you 'Turn off the soft-proof to print' ? (sorry to sound so dim)
Incidentally on Dpreview someone else had the same issue and appears to have solved it, they say (below) that it was a "preview before printing" problem. Again though I don't really know how to solve that. :P
"Thank you all for your suggestions, it turned out to be a "preview before printing" problem.
I turned it off and I got better prints"
Post by: dehnhaide on March 19, 2019, 10:59:03 am
I’m newish as well, but before the pros weigh in
1. My understanding is LR uses an single colorspace to work - kinda ‘ProPhoto like’
What you’re doing is exporting as a ProPhoto image. (why not export as Adobe RGB?)
2. Converting is probem-some. In PhotoShop you can assign a color space or convert to a color space. If you assign the color number stays the same, and the color appearance changes; for instance 94,62,233 prophoto is bright blue in AdobeRGB it's more purple. Convert translates the color appearance from one space to the other (keeping the color as close as possible).
3. If you print your soft-proof it goes through the printer profile twice (not completely accurate, but close enough), once on the image and once in the printer driver. Turn off the soft-proof to print.
You're gonna get scolded! Don't say you didn't see it coming...
Post by: nirpat89 on March 19, 2019, 11:01:13 am
Post by: nirpat89 on March 19, 2019, 11:02:23 am
You're gonna get scolded! Don't say you didn't see it coming...
:)
Post by: Garnick on March 19, 2019, 11:06:30 am
I’m newish as well, but before the pros weigh in
1. My understanding is LR uses an single colorspace to work - kinda ‘ProPhoto like’
What you’re doing is exporting as a ProPhoto image. (why not export as Adobe RGB?)
2. Converting is probem-some. In PhotoShop you can assign a color space or convert to a color space. If you assign the color number stays the same, and the color appearance changes; for instance 94,62,233 prophoto is bright blue in AdobeRGB it's more purple. Convert translates the color appearance from one space to the other (keeping the color as close as possible).
3. If you print your soft-proof it goes through the printer profile twice (not completely accurate, but close enough), once on the image and once in the printer driver. Turn off the soft-proof to print.
I all my years of printing I have never encountered a situation in which the print looked like the soft-proof, and quite honestly, I would never want that to happen. The point of soft proofing is to take into account the particular paper you are printing on and try to make the soft-proof look as close to the original image as possible. Therefore, what you are doing is compensating for the paper/ink combination that you will be using to create the print. Although I cannot be certain about this in LR, I do know that the print dialog display in PS means nothing as far as the "appearance" of the image is concerned, it's only for positioning of the image on the paper etc. I will say that this is true for the Mac OS, but perhaps not for Windows, not sure. As far as turning off the soft-proof is concerned, that has never been an issue in my experience and I've never had any such problem that indicated that it should be turned off.
EDIT: Sorry, it seems that a few of us were a writing a reply simultaneously. Glad you found the problem :)
Gary
Post by: HarveyM43 on March 19, 2019, 11:19:15 am
You're gonna get scolded! Don't say you didn't see it coming...
If I learn something new I welcome the teachable moment! ;D
"The two most exciting states to be in are either wrong, or confused. Because that means there’s more to learn."
Dr Laurance Kruess
Post by: sanfairyanne on March 19, 2019, 11:34:24 am
It didn't make any difference.
I assumed that when you hit File>Print and looked at the Photoshop Print Settings dialogue box you were only really seeing a preview of the image and how it fits on the paper i.e. there's a border etc.
It seems my printed image is a precise copy of that preview and not at all like the soft proofed image. Here's another screen grab to show my settings:
Post by: smthopr on March 19, 2019, 11:39:16 am
I all my years of printing I have never encountered a situation in which the print looked like the soft-proof, and quite honestly, I would never want that to happen. The point of soft proofing is to take into account the particular paper you are printing on and try to make the soft-proof look as close to the original image as possible. Therefore, what you are doing is compensating for the paper/ink combination that you will be using to create the print. Although I cannot be certain about this in LR, I do know that the print dialog display in PS means nothing as far as the "appearance" of the image is concerned, it's only for positioning of the image on the paper etc. I will say that this is true for the Mac OS, but perhaps not for Windows, not sure. As far as turning off the soft-proof is concerned, that has never been an issue in my experience and I've never had any such problem that indicated that it should be turned off.
EDIT: Sorry, it seems that a few of us were a writing a reply simultaneously. Glad you found the problem :)
Gary
I must be doing something wrong. My prints look very very close to my "soft proofs". I admit that I'm printing through Photoshop, and not Lightroom.
While the goal may be to make adjustments to the image while viewing the soft proof, to make the image print as best it can (given the limitations of the printer/paper/ink combo), to do this requires that the soft proof look like the actual print!
If the soft proof doesn't look like the print, something is wrong with the workflow, the display calibration, the printer profile, or a combination of all or some of the above.
When engaging the soft proof function, one's first reaction is usually that the image looks "flat". I find that that setting photoshop to surround the image with a white background (instead of the default grey) helps make the contrast look more correct, to my eye. In other words, the "blacks" look darker when surrounded by a white background.
I do make my own printer profiles, and do have my display calibrated with an iOne Display Pro.
Post by: smthopr on March 19, 2019, 11:43:13 am
Sorry for the delay guys I've been trying to figure this out, I'm really none the wiser. I did try changing my Lightroom settings... LR>Preferences>External Editing>ColorSpace = Adobe RGB (from having been on Prophoto.
It didn't make any difference.
I assumed that when you hit File>Print and looked at the Photoshop Print Settings dialogue box you were only really seeing a preview of the image and how it fits on the paper i.e. there's a border etc.
It seems my printed image is a precise copy of that preview and not at all like the soft proofed image. Here's another screen grab to show my settings:
Though I print in Photoshop, and not Lightroom, I DO find that my Photoshop soft proof looks exactly like the soft proof that shows in the Photoshop print dialog box. I suspect that you don't have your soft proof settings set correctly. Perhaps there is a box for "preview" that is not checked? I'm thinking that your soft proof is not really activated, when you think it is.
Post by: sanfairyanne on March 19, 2019, 12:20:09 pm
I always try different backgrounds when processing, it's a sensible approach.
You wrote "Perhaps there is a box for "preview" that is not checked? I'm thinking that your soft proof is not really activated, when you think it is"
If there is a check box I don't know which one, if my soft proof is not really activated I don't know why, tapping command Y toggles the view from softproof on or off (as far as I'm aware). When you've tapped command Y the image title should show the file number followed by the profile like this (below) as mine does - indicating that in this case my image is set up with the icc profile for LumaChromeAcrylic and therefore softproofing is setup correctly.
Post by: digitaldog on March 19, 2019, 12:20:32 pm
I'm trying to make a print using LR - Photoshop CC (fully updated). My screen is calibrated, I have the printer/paper profile installed. I've processed in LR in ProPhoto then Command E >Open in Photoshop CC, my image is now in colour space AdobeRGB.You converted to Adobe RGB (1998) upon opening (not sure why). Or your Open in PS Prefs are set for that (again I don't know why).
You processed in a cousin of ProPhoto RGB.
Quote
I've done a bit of final sharpening and made sure that I'm looking at View>Proof Setup>my printer is checked and set to perceptual. When I hit Command P the Photoshop Print Settings dialogue box opens. It's here that I see the image showing how the print will fit on the paper i.e. with its border. The odd thing is that when I print the image doesn't in any way compare to the softproof image.Forget what you see in the Print dialog in PS. You need to soft proof prior to that using View>Proof Setup.
Quote
It actually matches the image in the Print Settings dialogue box. I'm struggling with this because I don't know where to look (Google isn't helping).
NOT in the Print Settings Dialog even with the check boxes (it's buggy and depending on the version, doesn't work; ignore it).
Post by: sanfairyanne on March 19, 2019, 12:33:13 pm
I didn't convert to Adobe RGB upon opening, it was originally coming from LR as Prophoto, so I tried export as Adobe RGB just to see if it had any affect.
You write "Forget what you see in the Print dialog in PS. You need to soft proof prior to that using View>Proof Setup"
I did this, I was looking solely at the Proof set up, I toggled Command Y to make sure it was working. When I hit command P I assumed the Print dialogue box was showing an image purely to indicate how it fit onto the page (i.e with a border) so I paid little attention to it. It's just super odd (and maybe a coincidence) but the final print seems a complete match for that Print dialogue box image and not at all like the softproof image.
Post by: digitaldog on March 19, 2019, 12:34:50 pm
It's just super odd (and maybe a coincidence) but the final print seems a complete match for that Print dialogue box image and not at all like the softproof image.IF that's the case, your display calibration is way, way off. It needs to match the Proof Setup prior to using that dialog box.
Post by: digitaldog on March 19, 2019, 12:39:08 pm
Image is soft proofing with printer profile, paper and ink simulation using Custom Proof setup (left).
Same settings in Print dialog (right).
They don't match. It's not as far off as versions in the past but not correct. Ignore "soft proof" or any color rendering in Print Dialog, only pay attention to the actual soft proof in Photoshop proper.
Post by: nirpat89 on March 19, 2019, 12:45:49 pm
NOT in the Print Settings Dialog even with the check boxes (it's buggy and depending on the version, doesn't work; ignore it).
So all those options below the Print Preview (namely, Match Print Colors, Gamut Warning, and Show Paper White) are not to be trusted. I always thought they were a little iffy. Is this true for Mac as well as PC's? Wonder why Adobe wouldn't want to fix it.
It does look like the fact that the print matches this Preview is probably a (un)happy coincidence, then. Display calibration would be next thing to check, I suppose.
:Niranjan.
Post by: smthopr on March 19, 2019, 12:48:14 pm
I'm trying to make a print using LR - Photoshop CC (fully updated). My screen is calibrated, I have the printer/paper profile installed. I've processed in LR in ProPhoto then Command E >Open in Photoshop CC, my image is now in colour space AdobeRGB. I've done a bit of final sharpening and made sure that I'm looking at View>Proof Setup>my printer is checked and set to perceptual. When I hit Command P the Photoshop Print Settings dialogue box opens. It's here that I see the image showing how the print will fit on the paper i.e. with its border. The odd thing is that when I print the image doesn't in any way compare to the softproof image. It actually matches the image in the Print Settings dialogue box. I'm struggling with this because I don't know where to look (Google isn't helping). If anyone can make a suggestion I would really appreciate help.
Incidentally via a Google search I can see that someone else has had exactly the same problem: https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/photoshop-soft-proof-does-not-match-print-preview
There are only two replies, one suggests going to this forum! the other suggests I try >Try changing PS Preferences> Performance> Graphics Processor Settings> Advanced Settings> Drawing Mode> Basic.
This has absolutely no affect for me.
Something is going off course here.
First, start over from lightroom and open your image in photoshop in prophoto RGB, just to eliminate one variable.
Second, adjust your image in Photoshop to your liking.
Ready to print? Now go to view/proof/setup and select your printer profile, but leave the dialog box open.
Did you see any change to the image? Certainly the contrast should drop to limited range of the print. If nothing has changed, make sure that the "preview" check box is checked. If checked, uncheck it and look for a change. Nothing? Check the box again. You should see the application of the softproof change when checking/unchecking this box. And... make sure you have not selected "absolute colormetric" as the rendering intent by accident!
If you have done all this, and there is no change in the image when softproofing, I might suggest deleting and re-installing Photoshop to see if that helps.
Post by: JeanMichel on March 19, 2019, 12:49:43 pm
It might help you to check out the Camera to Print and LR videos available in the main site. They are excellent primers for learning to print.
And, since you do use LR, why nor print from LR. My own way of working, even if a file need to go to PS for some editing, is to go back to LR for soft-proofing and printing. The same 'master file' can be soft-proofed for different papers and printers, sized, etc., it is just so much more efficient to print from LR.
Post by: smthopr on March 19, 2019, 12:51:58 pm
So all those options below the Print Preview (namely, Match Print Colors, Gamut Warning, and Show Paper White) are not to be trusted. I always thought they were a little iffy. Is this true for Mac as well as PC's? Wonder why Adobe wouldn't want to fix it.I'm using Windows and I'm not finding the issue that Andrew has described with the print dialog preview. That said, there is no reason to use or trust the print dialog preview anyway, except for positioning of the image on the paper.
It does look like the fact that the print matches this Preview is probably a (un)happy coincidence, then. Display calibration would be next thing to check, I suppose.
:Niranjan.
Post by: nirpat89 on March 19, 2019, 01:02:03 pm
I'm using Windows and I'm not finding the issue that Andrew has described with the print dialog preview. That said, there is no reason to use or trust the print dialog preview anyway, except for positioning of the image on the paper.
Agree. I normally just glance to make sure the layout is correct and not pay attention to the colors etc.
Post by: sanfairyanne on March 19, 2019, 01:11:44 pm
You wrote:
First, start over from lightroom and open your image in photoshop in prophoto RGB, just to eliminate one variable. (done that)
Second, adjust your image in Photoshop to your liking.
Ready to print? Now go to view/proof/setup and select your printer profile, but leave the dialog box open. (which dialog box, i assume you mean when I click VIEW>PROOF SETUP>CUSTOM - when I go to view>proof setup I click my icc profile (first attached image)
Did you see any change to the image? Sure, if for instance i try VIEW>MONITOR RGB and toggle between this and my icc profile there's a ton of difference. Certainly the contrast should drop to limited range of the print. If nothing has changed, make sure that the "preview" check box is checked. If checked, uncheck it and look for a change. Nothing? Check the box again. You should see the application of the softproof change when checking/unchecking this box. And... make sure you have not selected "absolute colormetric" as the rendering intent by accident! No I'm on PERCEPTUAL
If you have done all this, and there is no change in the image when softproofing, I might suggest deleting and re-installing Photoshop to see if that helps.
I may just try re-installing, though I'm highly dubious that it will solve anything. At the end of the day the soft proof is not looking anything like the finished print, perhaps it's a coincidence that it matches the image in the print dialogue box, perhaps I shouldn't have said that as it just confuses the issue.
Post by: smthopr on March 19, 2019, 01:19:37 pm
Smthopr
You wrote:
First, start over from lightroom and open your image in photoshop in prophoto RGB, just to eliminate one variable. (done that)
Second, adjust your image in Photoshop to your liking.
Ready to print? Now go to view/proof/setup and select your printer profile, but leave the dialog box open. (which dialog box, i assume you mean when I click VIEW>PROOF SETUP>CUSTOM - when I go to view>proof setup I click my icc profile (first attached image)
Did you see any change to the image? Sure, if for instance i try VIEW>MONITOR RGB and toggle between this and my icc profile there's a ton of difference. Certainly the contrast should drop to limited range of the print. If nothing has changed, make sure that the "preview" check box is checked. If checked, uncheck it and look for a change. Nothing? Check the box again. You should see the application of the softproof change when checking/unchecking this box. And... make sure you have not selected "absolute colormetric" as the rendering intent by accident! No I'm on PERCEPTUAL
If you have done all this, and there is no change in the image when softproofing, I might suggest deleting and re-installing Photoshop to see if that helps.
I may just try re-installing, though I'm highly dubious that it will solve anything. At the end of the day the soft proof is not looking anything like the finished print, perhaps it's a coincidence that it matches the image in the print dialogue box, perhaps I shouldn't have said that as it just confuses the issue.
Don't check "preserve RGB numbers".
DO check "simulate paper color"!!!
Post by: sanfairyanne on March 19, 2019, 01:30:59 pm
I am pretty sure that when I printed neither box was checked. When I check the box 'simulate paper color' it definitely affects the proof. Do you think that will make the difference?
I guess I need to bite the bullet and try another print.
Post by: nirpat89 on March 19, 2019, 01:55:03 pm
smthopr,
I am pretty sure that when I printed neither box was checked. When I check the box 'simulate paper color' it definitely affects the proof. Do you think that will make the difference?
I guess I need to bite the bullet and try another print.
Judging from how far the two are, I doubt the color paper simulation would make such a big difference (unless you are printing on a yellowish paper.) You don't need to print the full size image to check another print. You should see the difference on a smaller size like 4"x5" as well. I normally trouble-shoot such things by printing a smaller version of the image and reusing the same paper by moving the layout around (via top and left margins.) That is also a good way to do a side by side comparison of the changes that are made.
What is the display calibration situation with your monitor? Is this the very first print you have tried to print? In other words, did you have a history of getting color-correct print before this?
:Niranjan
Post by: sanfairyanne on March 19, 2019, 02:28:24 pm
I will try a smaller less ink wasting print, I actually cut a super A3 in half and did 4 test prints on one, they worked well, they were a great match for the softproof, that was yesterday. I then tried one image on the other half of the paper and that one is the problem print. It's an epsom satin paper, nothing unusual.
The printer was calibrated only yesterday. I'll be back to this soon, (gotta dash for an errand).
Post by: digitaldog on March 19, 2019, 02:55:46 pm
In this 33 minute video, I'll cover soft proofing in Adobe Photoshop CC:
What is sof proofing.
Setting up a soft proof.
Saving soft proof presets.
What the simluate ink and paper check boxes do, why to use them.
Making output specific edits in layer sets.
Working with soft proofing in full screen mode.
The Out of Gamut Overlay and why to ignore it.
High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/SoftProofingInPhotoshopCC.mp4 (http://digitaldog.net/files/SoftProofingInPhotoshopCC.mp4)
Low resolution (YouTube): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njFgYba3lHU&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njFgYba3lHU&feature=youtu.be)
Post by: sanfairyanne on March 19, 2019, 03:40:28 pm
I'm just having my dinner, I'll get to watch your 33min video shortly.
Post by: sanfairyanne on March 19, 2019, 05:46:02 pm
I watched your video three times, created the presets etc i.e perceptual, colorimetric, perceptual simulate, colorimetric simulate. I've gone through things as best I can. It's too late in the evening to continue, so I'll get back to this with a small test print tomorrow. I'm tempted also to just try a test print directly from Lightroom - obviously using the same icc profile, it would be interesting to see what comes of that option.
Many thanks for your help.
Post by: smthopr on March 19, 2019, 05:55:20 pm
smthopr,
I am pretty sure that when I printed neither box was checked. When I check the box 'simulate paper color' it definitely affects the proof. Do you think that will make the difference?
I guess I need to bite the bullet and try another print.
Using the soft proof preview does not effect the print, just the way it looks on your display, to simulate how it will look printed. Generally, it's possible to match your print to the preview (with "paper white" checked), but not possible for your print to match the display, when the preview is turned off.
Post by: faberryman on March 19, 2019, 05:56:42 pm
Digitaldog,Soft proofing seems like a kludge. It seems like it would be better if the ICC profile were applied o the edit screen. What good does it to to edit and then when you soft proof, the colors are different.
I watched your video three times, created the presets etc i.e perceptual, colorimetric, perceptual simulate, colorimetric simulate. I've gone through things as best I can. It's too late in the evening to continue, so I'll get back to this with a small test print tomorrow. I'm tempted also to just try a test print directly from Lightroom - obviously using the same icc profile, it would be interesting to see what comes of that option.
Many thanks for your help.
Post by: smthopr on March 19, 2019, 06:01:06 pm
Smthopr,
I always try different backgrounds when processing, it's a sensible approach.
You wrote "Perhaps there is a box for "preview" that is not checked? I'm thinking that your soft proof is not really activated, when you think it is"
If there is a check box I don't know which one, if my soft proof is not really activated I don't know why, tapping command Y toggles the view from softproof on or off (as far as I'm aware). When you've tapped command Y the image title should show the file number followed by the profile like this (below) as mine does - indicating that in this case my image is set up with the icc profile for LumaChromeAcrylic and therefore softproofing is setup correctly.
I just noticed from this post that your profile name is something like "luma-chrome acrylic". But elsewhere you posted that you're printing on Epson paper. If I recall, premium luster paper? I ask as this is a strange name for a profile for that paper. Maybe you've selected the incorrect paper profile for your soft proof and/or paper selection in the printer dialog box?
Post by: smthopr on March 19, 2019, 06:10:47 pm
Soft proofing seems like a kludge. It seems like it would be better if the ICC profile were applied o the edit screen. What good does it to to edit and then when you soft proof, the colors are different.
The answer to this is to edit while the soft proof preview is applied. Then you will be editing to the capabilities of your printer/paper combination. I think this is what you desire. It's not a kludge because the printer is just not able to print all the colors and contrast that your computer display will show. You are kind of asking "why can't my prints look as bright and colorful as my slides in the projector?"
It will not be unusual to find that you need to make different edits for viewing on a computer display than you will for viewing on a paper print.
Post by: digitaldog on March 19, 2019, 06:14:21 pm
Soft proofing seems like a kludge. It seems like it would be better if the ICC profile were applied o the edit screen. What good does it to to edit and then when you soft proof, the colors are different.Kludge is in your understanding ;) . The ICC profile is applied to the screen and any edits. One can produce output specific edits BASED on the soft proof IF desired.
The soft proof is also only as good as the soft proofing table in the profile and how well it matches the output table that makes the print (along with your display calibration of course).
Post by: faberryman on March 19, 2019, 06:21:27 pm
Kludge is in your understanding ;) .No doubt.
Post by: digitaldog on March 19, 2019, 06:23:04 pm
No doubt.There's a solution for that.... ;)
https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=129593.msg1100603#msg1100603
Post by: nirpat89 on March 19, 2019, 07:00:24 pm
Soft proofing seems like a kludge. It seems like it would be better if the ICC profile were applied o the edit screen. What good does it to to edit and then when you soft proof, the colors are different.
That would make sense if all you want to do is make a print on a particular paper/printer combination. However, that would preclude that image file for use on the web or print on a different paper and/or printer in the future. That's why first an image is optimized for the digital presentation without any soft proofing applied. Save that as a master file. Then one can layer in any required changes to make the print look the way it should be with the help of soft-proofing. Save those to a new file for the particular paper/printer combination. Or save them on the master file with the layer visibility turned off.
:Niranjan.
Post by: Rand47 on March 19, 2019, 07:07:52 pm
Soft proofing seems like a kludge. It seems like it would be better if the ICC profile were applied o the edit screen. What good does it to to edit and then when you soft proof, the colors are different.
IF you only wanted to print that file on one printer with one paper, you could edit in proof preview mode. But that's kinda, like LIMITING. The whole idea is that you process an image to your liking. Then you tell Photoshop to "emulate" how it would look going to a specific printer, using a specific paper. The paper's gamut, and "paper white" impact how your print will look if you "do nothing" to your nice screen image. Soft proofing is a way to tweak the image so that is looks "proper" on "that printer with that paper" while still preserving your original file - just in case you want to send it to another output device like a phone or tablet (sRGB) or perhaps even make a print on a "different printer and/or paper."
Here's a personal perspective. Why in the heck would you soft proof and print out of Photoshop when you can do so from Lightroom, which to my way of thinking is much easier, takes up much less disk space for the virtual copy proof, and where Lightroom does a dandy job of upsampling on the fly for whatever image size you're laying out on whatever size paper you're using - in addition to allowing you to create print "Templates" that store printer driver settings (e.g. having color management turned off) paper size, type, layout, printer / ICC profile, media type, etc., all with the press of a single "click?"
All this "especially" since your image started in Lightroom in the first place. I "tune" most global adjustments (and some local adjustments) in LR, then send off to Photoshop as a smart object (so that I can launch ACR if I want to tweak any of my LR adjustments if I want to) for whatever fine tuning and precise local adjustments I may want to do via e.g. curves layers w/ masks, etc. and other tools. I have Photoshop return my file to LR w/ "_master.suffix" rather than "edit" in the file name. From there I go back to LR and soft proof and print.
Give it a shot.
Oh, and also... (and Digital Dog hinted at this), why would you go from a large working color space in LR and potentially dump a bunch of color data by sending to Photoshop as AdobeRGB? Makes no sense. Set your working color space in Photoshop (and ACR) to ProPhoto, then just do an "Open in Photoshop as a Smart Object" (or just "Edit in" Photoshop if you don't want to use a smart object work flow) from within Lightroom.... Keep all that color data.
Rand
Post by: sanfairyanne on March 19, 2019, 07:15:39 pm
You wrote:
I just noticed from this post that your profile name is something like "luma-chrome acrylic". But elsewhere you posted that you're printing on Epson paper. If I recall, premium luster paper? I ask as this is a strange name for a profile for that paper. Maybe you've selected the incorrect paper profile for your soft proof and/or paper selection in the printer dialog box?
Well spotted, thanks for properly reading my reply. In answer; I was merely testing another profile. To be honest I knew 'luma chrome acrylic' was an icc profile. I began to have my doubts about the Epsom printer/paper profile. I'm actually borrowing someone else's equipment so I only had their word for it that their Epsom profile was correct. It's nearly midnight here in the UK so I'm going to have to get back to this tomorrow.
Post by: sanfairyanne on March 19, 2019, 07:33:50 pm
Sorry as it's almost midnight here I'm having to rush my reply. I've changed Lightroom preferences to export from LR to Photoshop from Adobe RGB to ProPhoto. I'll try your suggestion for working with a smart object in Photoshop. I think though that by doing that (tell me if I'm wrong) this essentially only helps if I want to go back and forth from Photoshop to ACR and back (perhaps multiple times) without breaking down levels?
In other words the fact that I didn't work as a smart object shouldn't make such a noticeable difference for my current soft proofed print.
I get what you're saying about working with LR to create my print and tomorrow I'm going to try printing from LR just to see if it works out. I guess I'd like to get to the bottom of the issue with Photoshop, I don't want to be beaten by something. Plus it does get tiring when you've spent countless hours using one software package only to be told by someone that you should use another.
Just to prove my LR external edits are prophoto here's a screen grab. I'll be back to this first thing in the morning.
Post by: Rand47 on March 19, 2019, 07:48:45 pm
Quote
In other words the fact that I didn't work as a smart object shouldn't make such a noticeable difference for my current soft proofed print.
Right. The smart object work flow just has advantages, in my opinion, for editing in general, but won't have any impact on soft proofing (all things being equal.)
My guess is that something in your work flow / set up is out of whack. Hard for any of us to diagnose with certainty from "afar." But watch Andrew Rodney's video a few times re Photoshop and also the LR version of that same content. No one knows this subject better than Andrew. You may find where the problem is as you see his demonstration(s).
Rand
Post by: digitaldog on March 19, 2019, 08:17:41 pm
Post by: sanfairyanne on March 19, 2019, 08:31:03 pm
That person goes on at the end to say this "Thank you all for your suggestions, it turned out to be a "preview before printing" problem.
"I turned it off and I got better prints"
The post is here: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3261242?page=2
I'm not entirely sure about this "preview before printing" box. I checked on your video and you keep the preview button checked in the Customize Proof Condition dialogue box. It does have a wild effect to my image if I toggle it on and off. I wondered if it was this that was causing the problem for the guy on Dpreview. Sadly the response to his problem is pretty vague - unless "it turned out to be a "preview before printing" problem means anything to you?
Post by: digitaldog on March 19, 2019, 08:35:10 pm
Can I just quickly put you towards a post on Dpreview where someone describes an identical issue to mine.Doesn't make any sense, such previews don't affect output.
That person goes on at the end to say this "Thank you all for your suggestions, it turned out to be a "preview before printing" problem.
"I turned it off and I got better prints"
Post by: Rand47 on March 19, 2019, 08:39:38 pm
Rand
Post by: digitaldog on March 19, 2019, 08:42:51 pm
One man’s opinion, but that DP thread is filled with complete bushwah....You're being so kind. It's often a cesspool of nonsensical postings. ;)
Rand
Post by: sanfairyanne on March 19, 2019, 08:44:57 pm
Thanks for checking it out guys. Seriously gotta sleep now though. I've got a few days off work and plan to make some prints, so I'm straight back into this in the morning.
Post by: Rand47 on March 20, 2019, 10:22:00 am
I don’t want to beat a dead horse here, but let me reinforce something that has been said a couple of times in this thread. When you ask for a “print preview” in the driver settings, and it comes up on the screen, IT ISN’T COLOR MANAGED and will look terrible 99.9% of the time. The purpose of this preview is merely to confirm how the image is laid out on the paper. That’s it. Nothing else. The appearance (color etc.) of this print preview HAS NO IMPACT WHATSOEVER on the the original image, or the soft proof version that you’ve tweaked to look “appropriate” for that image on your selected printer and paper (via proper ICC profile applied). And has no impact on what data is sent to the printer.
Ergo, turning off the print preview selection as a way to try to change what is going on with your work flow, is totally a fool’s errand. Don’t waste or invest any of your time chasing that wild goose. Your problem is somewhere else.
Also, though I much prefer Lightroom’s soft proofing and printing to Photoshop’s, if you follow Andrew Rodney’s instructions on proper work flow, procedures, understanding of the process... the same image, printed through Photoshop OR Lightroom, should look identical assuming the same printer / paper.
Good luck as you work through this today.
Rand
Post by: sanfairyanne on March 20, 2019, 10:34:51 am
I totally understand what you're saying about the print preview. It may as well just be a random colour on a white background (where white signifies how much border you have. I was (and still am) confused because the print preview is a complete colour match for the final print. I appreciate this may just be a coincidence.
This morning I just downloaded the Epsom driver onto my laptop, I had hoped to try a test print from my laptop to see if that works. I'm struggling at the moment because for the life of me I can't find the icc profile for my Epsom Premium Lustre Paper. Epsom Online Chat opens in 40 mins, so I figured I'd try them. I also tried the RedRiver catalogue but they don't seem to have my papers icc either.
Again I'm prepared also to go to LR to try a test print.
Post by: Rand47 on March 20, 2019, 10:49:58 am
Quote
I appreciate this may just be a coincidence.
Yup... and in this case an unfortunate conincidence, because it is distracting you from whatever the real issue is. :D
Again, beating the dead horse, are you certain that you have color management turned off in the printer driver, so that ONLY Photoshop is driving the bus? If you don’t, you’ll often get the kind of garish results that “may” resemble the print prieview (completely by coincidence!!!). I’ve made prints like this on purpose to demonstrate results of this mistake for members of a club I belong to (where I pass on the great info I’ve learned here on LuLa from Andrew, Jeff Schewe, Mark Segal and others).
Rand
Post by: sanfairyanne on March 20, 2019, 10:55:44 am
You wrote: "are you certain that you have color management turned off in the printer driver, so that ONLY Photoshop is driving the bus?"
I'm not entirely sure no - can you describe how to do this please
Post by: Rand47 on March 20, 2019, 11:03:41 am
Rand47
You wrote: "are you certain that you have color management turned off in the printer driver, so that ONLY Photoshop is driving the bus?"
I'm not entirely sure no - can you describe how to do this please
I scanned the thread quickly but don’t see what printer you’re using? Where, and how to turn off printer driver color management is different for different printer brands / models. YouTube “may” be your friend if you search on, e.g., “How to turn off color management on my Epson SC P800...”
But if you share exact printer brand / model, someone here should be able to quickly tell you how to turn off (or confirm) color management in that particular driver. Also share what OS you have, Mac or PC.
UPDATE: I see you mention Epson driver! Sorry I missed that. What model? What OS?
Rand
Post by: sanfairyanne on March 20, 2019, 11:12:31 am
MacOS Mojave 10.14.3
Epsom Stylus Pro 3880
Am currently trying YouTube - tends to be either amazing or misleading
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on March 20, 2019, 11:19:08 am
Hi Rand47All the profiles for Epson papers should install automatically when you download and install the printer driver. I know there is a problem with MacOS and driver/printer installation (something about Airprint???? I'm unsure as I am on Windows 10). Someone with Mac OS experience might want to weigh in. I also have an Epson 3880 and all the Red River profiles for that printer are here: https://www.redrivercatalog.com/profiles/epson-pro-3880-color-icc-profiles.html
MacOS Mojave 10.14.3
Epsom Stylus Pro 3880
Am currently trying YouTube - tends to be either amazing or misleading
Post by: Rand47 on March 20, 2019, 11:25:08 am
Hi Rand47
MacOS Mojave 10.14.3
Epsom Stylus Pro 3880
Am currently trying YouTube - tends to be either amazing or misleading
OK, great. I’m Windows based and don’t own a 3880, but many here do! So, hopefully someone can post a screen shot of exactly what you need to check!
Rand
Post by: digitaldog on March 20, 2019, 11:27:30 am
Post by: smthopr on March 20, 2019, 11:30:52 am
I would at this point, not suggest switching to lightroom for printing until you understand the workflow error in Photoshop.
If you're working on a Mac, and don't see the printer profile for your Epson brand paper, it's possible that you've installed a generic print driver from Apple rather than the real Epson print driver. When you install the real Epson print driver, all the Epson paper profiles should be visible in Photoshop, but may require a restart of Photoshop, and maybe the computer itself.
Post by: nirpat89 on March 20, 2019, 12:10:01 pm
:Niranjan.
Post by: Rand47 on March 20, 2019, 12:45:44 pm
OK, great. I’m Windows based and don’t own a 3880, but many here do! So, hopefully someone can post a screen shot of exactly what you need to check!
Rand
Hi, OP . . .
I've created a little video showing where / how to turn off color management in your printer driver in Photoshop. My demo video is for an Epsson SC P600 (and I'm hoping that is at least similar to your 3880 - I can't remember). Also, caveat, my demo is on a Windows machine, so the actual look of the various dialog boxes may be a little different, but you should be able to sort through that to where exactly it is on your Mac.
Direct download link:
https://www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/7jejqj
Let us know if this is at all helpful. If you do no more than confirm that color management is turned off in the printer driver and that only Photoshop is driving the bus, that will help. Or, there's at least a small possibility that this IS the problem.
Rand
Post by: sanfairyanne on March 20, 2019, 12:48:58 pm
I need to do a test print and see where I get to. Will reply shortly
Post by: JeanMichel on March 20, 2019, 12:53:13 pm
Hi Rand47
MacOS Mojave 10.14.3
Epsom Stylus Pro 3880
Am currently trying YouTube - tends to be either amazing or misleading
Hi,
Forget picking small pieces of advice from here or there. As a Lula user you have access to video tutorials on camera to print and Lightroom, etc. In addition, Andrew Rodney is offering access to some if not all his videos. Your time spent with those tutorial will be very rewarding.
Post by: digitaldog on March 20, 2019, 01:05:55 pm
Be careful with the terminology for the 'newbies' as described by the OP (nothing wrong with that admission). In your first sentence after intro you say "let me help you check to have color management turned off in Photoshop" or something to that effect. You can't turn off color management in PS and you want to tell the viewer how to turn off color management in the print driver.
Direct download link:
https://www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/7jejqj (https://www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/7jejqj)
Let us know if this is at all helpful. If you do no more than confirm that color management is turned off in the printer driver and that only Photoshop is driving the bus, that will help. Or, there's at least a small possibility that this IS the problem.
Rand
On the Mac, if you set Photoshop Manages Color (this is generically known as Application Manages Color), you can't not have the Mac printer driver set to anything but No Color Management as seen below. In the Color Matching area of the Mac driver, PS automatically sets ColorSync too, as also shown below.
Post by: Rand47 on March 20, 2019, 01:22:36 pm
Be careful with the terminology for the 'newbies' as described by the OP (nothing wrong with that admission). In your first sentence after intro you say "let me help you check to have color management turned off in Photoshop" or something to that effect. You can't turn off color management in PS and you want to tell the viewer how to turn off color management in the print driver.
On the Mac, if you set Photoshop Manages Color (this is generically known as Application Manages Color), you can't not have the Mac printer driver set to anything but No Color Management as seen below. In the Color Matching area of the Mac driver, PS automatically sets ColorSync too, as also shown below.
Andrew,
You're absolutely correct... I noticed that after I posted the video. Fortunately, I hope I made it clear as I went along in the video that it is the driver where color management needs to be turned off, not Photoshop. But I do appreciate what you're saying. Too easy to add confusion rather than clarity. Thanks for the call-out.
And thanks for the screen shots. Hopefully, it will help being more specific to Mac OS. Nice that the Mac OS takes care of that!
Rand
Post by: Rand47 on March 20, 2019, 01:38:22 pm
I hope it is obvious to you that Andrew's screen shots illustrate that my video is irrelevant (to your situation), since in the Mac OS if you have "Application Manages Color" properly selected, the printer driver, by default, will have its color management turned off. That's a nice aspect of the Mac OS.
Hope my trying to be "helpful" hasn't caused confusion.
Rand
Post by: sanfairyanne on March 20, 2019, 01:43:35 pm
Post by: sanfairyanne on March 20, 2019, 03:24:11 pm
It might not be relevant, but I figured that because I'd been working with a U.S. printer driver instead of a UK printer driver I probably should remove my custom proof set ups (created on the U.S driver) and replace them with the UK printer driver installed. Even if this is not necessary I could do with knowing how to do it because I have one which is untitled (by mistake). As I say it may be unnecessary, but I figured it was worth checking.
Thanks
Post by: Rand47 on March 20, 2019, 03:42:42 pm
Rand 47,
It might not be relevant, but I figured that because I'd been working with a U.S. printer driver instead of a UK printer driver I probably should remove my custom proof set ups (created on the U.S driver) and replace them with the UK printer driver installed. Even if this is not necessary I could do with knowing how to do it because I have one which is untitled (by mistake). As I say it may be unnecessary, but I figured it was worth checking.
Thanks
Hi,
Andrew is the person who would "really know," but I can say in general that since it is simple to delete the old presets, and rebuild new ones "starting fresh" seems like a good idea.
Rand
Post by: sanfairyanne on March 20, 2019, 03:46:03 pm
(sorry I mistook you for Rand47)
It might not be relevant, but I figured that because I'd been working with a U.S. printer driver instead of a UK printer driver I probably should remove my custom proof set ups (created on the U.S driver) and replace them with the UK printer driver installed. Even if this is not necessary I could do with knowing how to do it because I have one which is untitled (by mistake). As I say it may be unnecessary, but I figured it was worth checking.
Thanks
Post by: digitaldog on March 20, 2019, 04:38:53 pm
Digitaldog,The customized proof setup's in Photoshop are based on the output profile, not the driver. The driver doesn't create anything other than some presets (which you never want to use in Lightroom as all the print templates handle this). Since you're not printing in LR, we can table that for now.
(sorry I mistook you for Rand47)
It might not be relevant, but I figured that because I'd been working with a U.S. printer driver instead of a UK printer driver I probably should remove my custom proof set ups (created on the U.S driver) and replace them with the UK printer driver installed. Even if this is not necessary I could do with knowing how to do it because I have one which is untitled (by mistake). As I say it may be unnecessary, but I figured it was worth checking.
Thanks
Post by: sanfairyanne on March 20, 2019, 04:54:40 pm
I figured I could still do with knowing how to remove them, if nothing else other than one is untitled.
While I was waiting for your response I figured I'd just hit print and see if the U.S / Uk driver issue had solved anything - the small test print seemed to be a huge improvement. So I bit the bullet and hit print on a Super A3. The results are attached. So I'm hugely grateful to those who've replied especially Digitaldog and Rand47. It's monumentally irritating that having a U.S download printer driver would cause all this trouble (I have a UK purchased Epson Stylus Pro3880) Who would ever think that (certainly not the person at Epson (sorry I wrote Epsom so many times before).
Here's the final print. I'm not going to get too excited yet but I'm feeling I've got somewhere. (needless to say I didn't process this i-phone shot of the print for web!)
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on March 20, 2019, 05:22:48 pm
The driver doesn't create anything other than some presets (which you never want to use in Lightroom as all the print templates handle this).You still have to configure the driver for the type of paper and size. These can then be incorporated into a LR print template. You cannot specify the paper size in LR otherwise (I know this from when I first tried to print something and there was a mismatch between the LR standard size that was selected and what the printer was expecting via the driver. Of course once you have everything properly configured you don't have to revisit the driver at all.
Post by: Rand47 on March 20, 2019, 05:24:28 pm
Check your private messages.
Rand
Post by: sanfairyanne on March 20, 2019, 05:35:21 pm
R.E. thanks so much for all your help and for the video, I have to admit it's been a frustrating past two days for me. I'm abroad 99.9% of my life and so it's very hard to get to work on anything other than a laptop, for this reason printing has been a dark art which I've never mastered. I've been shooting since 09 and much like all the other digital guys and girls I'm wasting those megapixels on web images. To be able to finally print something is hugely rewarding. I just need to buy a house now to put some prints on the wall !
Post by: nirpat89 on March 20, 2019, 06:24:26 pm
Digitaldog, You wrote: "The customized proof setup's in Photoshop are based on the output profile, not the driver. The driver doesn't create anything other than some presets"
I figured I could still do with knowing how to remove them, if nothing else other than one is untitled.
While I was waiting for your response I figured I'd just hit print and see if the U.S / Uk driver issue had solved anything - the small test print seemed to be a huge improvement. So I bit the bullet and hit print on a Super A3. The results are attached. So I'm hugely grateful to those who've replied especially Digitaldog and Rand47. It's monumentally irritating that having a U.S download printer driver would cause all this trouble (I have a UK purchased Epson Stylus Pro3880) Who would ever think that (certainly not the person at Epson (sorry I wrote Epsom so many times before).
Here's the final print. I'm not going to get too excited yet but I'm feeling I've got somewhere. (needless to say I didn't process this i-phone shot of the print for web!)
This could just be due to the iPhone picture, but your print in this attachment looks very similar to one inside the Print Setting window that you have shown before - clearly brownish as if the red was de-saturated out from the soft-proofed original.
Also how does the three images compare now with the new driver: As is, with soft-proof turned on, and inside the Print Setting window. Just curious.
Hope you have solved your problem though. Printing is fun, until it is not.... :)
Post by: digitaldog on March 20, 2019, 06:33:33 pm
You still have to configure the driver for the type of paper and size. These can then be incorporated into a LR print template. You cannot specify the paper size in LR otherwise (I know this from when I first tried to print something and there was a mismatch between the LR standard size that was selected and what the printer was expecting via the driver. Of course once you have everything properly configured you don't have to revisit the driver at all.A print template in LR can be set for everything; print size, profile, rendering intent etc; to the degree all you have to do is simply press the "Print" button, nothing more after just selecting images to actually print in the filmstrip.
What you don't want is the driver setup for (in this example, an Epson) any preset but for Default Settings. Different in Photoshop where you might very well want a preset named say Luster Paper (for that media settings and all associated setting for Luster), and all the other configurable items in that print dialog. Not in LR.
Post by: sanfairyanne on March 20, 2019, 06:34:20 pm
The iphone shot looks like crap. In person the print looks impressive (I could faff around a little with some highlights, but that's just processing) I can't get to the office right now, but the softproof really matched the print. I honestly can't say if the one inside the Print Setting window was close or not, I paid little attention to the one in the Print Setting window because Rand47and DigitalDog told me that other than using that box to get an idea of the print borders I was not to pay attention to it.
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on March 20, 2019, 06:59:43 pm
A print template in LR can be set for everything; print size, profile, rendering intent etc; to the degree all you have to do is simply press the "Print" button, nothing more after just selecting images to actually print in the filmstrip.I only have a 3880 and you have to set the paper size and the type in the driver. LR cannot do this. As I noted once you have established a driver preset that can be incorporated into a LR preset, otherwise LR has no clue about what paper you have put in the printer. Your printer may differ as it is a newer model. I was only speaking from my own experience.
What you don't want is the driver setup for (in this example, an Epson) any preset but for Default Settings. Different in Photoshop where you might very well want a preset named say Luster Paper (for that media settings and all associated setting for Luster), and all the other configurable items in that print dialog. Not in LR.
Post by: digitaldog on March 20, 2019, 07:02:23 pm
I only have a 3880 and you have to set the paper size and the type in the driver. LR cannot do this. As I noted once you have established a driver preset that can be incorporated into a LR preset, otherwise LR has no clue about what paper you have put in the printer. Your printer may differ as it is a newer model. I was only speaking from my own experience.I also have a 3880 (and P800): no such limitations. The templates after configuration of the driver of course, sets everything.
Post by: Dinarius on April 07, 2019, 08:24:29 am
I'm returning to printing after a long absence because I need prints for a portfolio submission.
I am printing on an Epson R2400
I'm using Epson Luster and Hahnemuhle Photo Rag papers.
I have Photoshop setup for colour management.
I have black point and paper white selected. I am using manufacturer's profiles for the relevant papers.
If I have an image open and I choose File/Print, the image print preview is darker than the original open behind it. And that is exactly how it prints - a little darker.
If I create a curve layer and push up the middle of it about 10-15 points, or if I do similar with a Levels layer, I get a print which looks pretty much like the original image.
I guess what I'm asking is; assuming I have all the boxes correctly ticked in the setup, is a print slightly darker than the original the norm?
Thanks.
D.
Post by: digitaldog on April 07, 2019, 08:59:36 am
Interesting thread.Why are my prints too dark?
I'm returning to printing after a long absence because I need prints for a portfolio submission.
I am printing on an Epson R2400
I'm using Epson Luster and Hahnemuhle Photo Rag papers.
I have Photoshop setup for colour management.
I have black point and paper white selected. I am using manufacturer's profiles for the relevant papers.
If I have an image open and I choose File/Print, the image print preview is darker than the original open behind it. And that is exactly how it prints - a little darker.
If I create a curve layer and push up the middle of it about 10-15 points, or if I do similar with a Levels layer, I get a print which looks pretty much like the original image.
I guess what I'm asking is; assuming I have all the boxes correctly ticked in the setup, is a print slightly darker than the original the norm?
Thanks.
D.
A video update to a written piece on subject from 2013
In this 24 minute video, I'll cover:
Are your prints really too dark?
Display calibration and WYSIWYG
Proper print viewing conditions
Trouble shooting to get a match
Avoiding kludges that don't solve the problem
High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/Why_are_my_prints_too_dark.mp4
Low resolution: https://youtu.be/iS6sjZmxjY4
Post by: Dinarius on April 07, 2019, 09:11:08 am
You da man!
Thanks.
D.
Post by: Dinarius on April 07, 2019, 11:54:02 am
While everything in Andrew’s video makes sense; when I say that, with “match paper white” ticked in the PS dialog, the preview does then look darker than the image open behind it. Right? (Maybe this applies to some papers and not others?)
Thanks.
D.
Post by: digitaldog on April 07, 2019, 12:36:31 pm
Ps.Doesn't look darker IF you account for this when calibrating the display to match the soft proof.
While everything in Andrew’s video makes sense; when I say that, with “match paper white” ticked in the PS dialog, the preview does then look darker than the image open behind it. Right? (Maybe this applies to some papers and not others?)
Thanks.
D.