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Author Topic: Does the new LuLa need an editor?  (Read 5220 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Does the new LuLa need an editor?
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2019, 11:42:24 am »

... Photographers are not, by default, writers...

Those who can, photograph; those who can not, write  ;)

faberryman

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Re: Does the new LuLa need an editor?
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2019, 11:46:06 am »

Those who can, photograph; those who can not, write  ;)
Huh?

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Does the new LuLa need an editor?
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2019, 11:58:23 am »

Huh?

Paraphrasing “those who can, do; those who can not, teach.” Meaning (my paraphrased version) that good writers (about photography) are not necessarily good photographers, and vice versa. Meaning, further, that Josh has an excellent opportunity to be seen as a good writer  ;)

faberryman

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Re: Does the new LuLa need an editor?
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2019, 12:10:26 pm »

Paraphrasing “those who can, do; those who can not, teach.” Meaning (my paraphrased version) that good writers (about photography) are not necessarily good photographers, and vice versa. Meaning, further, that Josh has an excellent opportunity to be seen as a good writer  ;)
Because he is not a good photographer?

Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Does the new LuLa need an editor?
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2019, 12:37:17 pm »

Why should anyone be expected to volunteer? This is a now a business, and has been for some time; would you expect your doctor to spend hours on your case without charge?

I receive no payment for moderating the forums here and have never requested any. I've gained a lot of knowledge from others' wisdom and now gain satisfaction by contributing what I can. In any event, the forums are free.

Some might argue that I'm paid what I'm worth, of course.

Jeremy
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alainbriot

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Re: Does the new LuLa need an editor?
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2019, 12:50:01 pm »

"Vigorous writing is concise. A sentence should contain no unnecessary words, a paragraph no unnecessary sentences, for the same reason that a drawing should have no unnecessary lines and a machine no unnecessary parts."

That grammar of that sentence is interestingly dubious. It seems to me that there's an "and" missing.

Jeremy

This sentence is correct.  It's also a literal quote from the book.  It's easier to read if you pause at the commas. 
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Does the new LuLa need an editor?
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2019, 01:00:21 pm »


Begging the question does have a specific meaning; because many fail to understand that does not, of itself, render the term silly or irrelevant. You could extend the defence of bad grammer to the point where grammar turns into dust, and nothing makes any more sense ever again.


We are not going to see eye to eye on this one.

The phrase does have a specific meaning, but that meaning is a cultural one that only some English speakers are aware of. That meaning has nothing to do with correct or incorrect grammar.

If the current usage goes out of fashion, it will go out of fashion for reasons other than grammar. It has probably already gone out of fashion among some English speakers/writers. One day it may disappear completely. Its new meaning will be no more correct or incorrect than the current one.
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faberryman

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Re: Does the new LuLa need an editor?
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2019, 01:37:53 pm »

We are not going to see eye to eye on this one.

The phrase does have a specific meaning, but that meaning is a cultural one that only some English speakers are aware of. That meaning has nothing to do with correct or incorrect grammar.

If the current usage goes out of fashion, it will go out of fashion for reasons other than grammar. It has probably already gone out of fashion among some English speakers/writers. One day it may disappear completely. Its new meaning will be no more correct or incorrect than the current one.
Begging the question is a logical fallacy, not some cultural saying. It is unlikely to fall out of usage any time soon. Especially around here.

amolitor

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Re: Does the new LuLa need an editor?
« Reply #48 on: January 05, 2019, 01:45:55 pm »

"begging the question" is, like most terms from logic referring to a specific fallacy, being adopted into the vernacular. What it means in common usage (and what other similar terms, see also "strawman" and "appeal to authority") is "I disagree with you" and that is quite distinct from its technical usage.
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faberryman

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Re: Does the new LuLa need an editor?
« Reply #49 on: January 05, 2019, 02:09:42 pm »

"begging the question" is, like most terms from logic referring to a specific fallacy, being adopted into the vernacular. What it means in common usage (and what other similar terms, see also "strawman" and "appeal to authority") is "I disagree with you" and that is quite distinct from its technical usage.
If people use the phrase "begging the question" to mean "I disagree with you", then they are misusing it. People misuse words and phrases all the time.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 02:18:18 pm by faberryman »
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: Does the new LuLa need an editor?
« Reply #50 on: January 05, 2019, 02:52:20 pm »

I receive no payment for moderating the forums here and have never requested any. I've gained a lot of knowledge from others' wisdom and now gain satisfaction by contributing what I can. In any event, the forums are free.

Some might argue that I'm paid what I'm worth, of course.

Jeremy
I think you should ask for at least a 20% raise.   ;)

Eric
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Rob C

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Re: Does the new LuLa need an editor?
« Reply #51 on: January 05, 2019, 02:59:39 pm »

I think you should ask for at least a 20% raise.   ;)

Eric


Isn't that kinda pushing it a wee bit beyond the rate of western inflation?

Rob

amolitor

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Re: Does the new LuLa need an editor?
« Reply #52 on: January 05, 2019, 03:01:10 pm »

I am more of a descriptive linguist than a prescriptive one.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Does the new LuLa need an editor?
« Reply #53 on: January 05, 2019, 05:03:41 pm »

Begging the question is a logical fallacy, not some cultural saying. It is unlikely to fall out of usage any time soon. Especially around here.

You misunderstand me, or I phrased it badly. The concept for which we use the phrase "begging the question" is a logical fallacy as you state. But the actual words we use "begging the question" is an expression that we invented to mean that (see below). It is not a given that those three words would mean what they have come to mean. They have come to mean what they mean because we all (more or less) decided to use them that way. They don't grammatically in themselves have that meaning. Someone educated in the "Queen's English" that may never have come across the phrase during their upbringing would not know to interpret the phrase in that manner. You need the cultural knowledge to interpret it that way. All I am saying is that using it "incorrectly" is not a grammatical error.

From the wikipedia entry: "The phrase begging the question originated in the 16th century as a mistranslation of the Latin petitio principii, which actually translates to "assuming the initial point". In modern vernacular usage, "begging the question" is frequently incorrectly used to mean "raising the question" or "dodging the question". In contexts that demand strict adherence to a technical definition of the term, many consider these usages incorrect.

English had always been descriptive and not prescriptive. Expressions fall into and out of favour all the time. Simon Winchester wrote a very interesting book about the construction of the original edition of the Oxford English dictionary.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Does the new LuLa need an editor?
« Reply #54 on: January 05, 2019, 05:34:17 pm »

... In modern vernacular usage, "begging the question" is frequently incorrectly used to mean "raising the question"...

Why incorrectly? My understanding is it means exactly like that and nothing else. Says Slobodan, as an English-as-second-language forum member.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Does the new LuLa need an editor?
« Reply #55 on: January 05, 2019, 06:21:06 pm »

Why incorrectly? My understanding is it means exactly like that and nothing else. Says Slobodan, as an English-as-second-language forum member.

That phrase from the Wikipedia extract, from which I did not include footnotes. Maybe the footnotes better explain what they mean by "incorrectly": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question.

But it seems to me a bit like a denotation vs connotation thing. That is, if all you knew was the definition of the three words "begging the question" and a bit about English grammar and you saw the phrase for the first time, you would not know that what is meant by it is the logical fallacy that many others automatically understand it to mean. But someone who has only seen it used that way their entire life would regard any other use as erroneous. Maybe it's in that sense that they mean "incorrectly".

There are probably many other examples of expressions whose generally understood meaning does not strictly correspond to the words used in the expression, and I've been sitting here trying to think of some but can't. Sorry, some other examples might have helped to clarify things.
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Mikenor2

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Re: Does the new LuLa need an editor?
« Reply #56 on: January 05, 2019, 06:31:04 pm »

This site is getting so childish... Enough with the nit picking already!
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amolitor

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Re: Does the new LuLa need an editor?
« Reply #57 on: January 05, 2019, 06:32:56 pm »

There are probably many other examples of expressions whose generally understood meaning does not strictly correspond to the words used in the expression, and I've been sitting here trying to think of some but can't. Sorry, some other examples might have helped to clarify things.

That's just anything idiomatic, by definition, eh?

"I don't have a dog in this hunt"
"He killed it!"
"My team died in the second half"
"I'm dog-tired"

and so on.

Technical phrases, when used in common speech, tend to become idiomatic usage. Idiomatic usage tends to drift over time. A technical phrase, therefore, may easily enter the vernacular with a meaning close to or identical with the technical one, but that vernacular usage will tend to drift over time.

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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Does the new LuLa need an editor?
« Reply #58 on: January 05, 2019, 06:50:57 pm »

This site is getting so childish... Enough with the nit picking already!
This is only your fifth post.  Why not wait around for a while before you pass judgement?
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Does the new LuLa need an editor?
« Reply #59 on: January 05, 2019, 06:56:12 pm »

Technical phrases, when used in common speech, tend to become idiomatic usage. Idiomatic usage tends to drift over time. A technical phrase, therefore, may easily enter the vernacular with a meaning close to or identical with the technical one, but that vernacular usage will tend to drift over time.
I remember back in graduate school being mildly upbraided by my thesis advisor for using 'hopefully' in sentence.  At that time (1974), it was only used in common speech and many regarded it as 'shorthand.'  I think today is is commonly accepted.  When I submitted the first draft of my dissertation, he struck out all the uses of the phrase 'due to.'  He noted that the rent can be do but something that happens in an experiment is 'a result of.'  As with hopefully 'due to' is pretty much common usage these day.
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