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Author Topic: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4  (Read 43425 times)

Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #100 on: September 02, 2018, 11:33:45 am »

I have been mirrorless for two years. Definately get more dust but it is definately easier to clean. I keep a little blower with me at all times little thing and weighs nothing. I do live in an arid place. Would also like something to cover the sensor when changing lenses.
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Rado

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #101 on: September 02, 2018, 12:18:08 pm »

it does not bother you with dSLRs though ? mirror is not a serious protecion at  all
On my Canons the shutter is closed when there's no lens mounted. I still get dust on the sensor there but less than on my Sony.
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D White

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #102 on: September 02, 2018, 02:19:35 pm »

Incredibly, it appears that there will be no IBIS and no eye detection with the latest PDF leak.

Short of having the worlds most incredible sensor, (unlikely), I am increasingly likely to add one or two Sony bodies. First with an adaptor to my Canon and Sigma optics collection, and then a strong possibility of replacing much of it with native Sony lenses, including my big whites.

My patience with Canon has been long but there is a limit. I am sure there would be issues with Sony too, but image quality and full integration of features does not seem to be one of them.

As a side, does Sigma offer native mount swapping on their Art series?
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Rado

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #103 on: September 02, 2018, 02:29:24 pm »

No IBIS sucks but for me it's about the feature crippling/price ratio. If we get 5D4-ish sensor in a <2K body I will consider getting one as a hiking/outdoors camera, replacing my A7ii. I have no native Sony lenses and I'm constantly fighting colors coming out of the Sony (and usually not winning).
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BJL

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - full specs at www.canonrumors.com
« Reply #104 on: September 02, 2018, 03:18:14 pm »

Sorry if this was already posted: https://www.canonrumors.com/canon-eos-r-full-specifications/

So amongst the newer details in those many pages:
- USB-C, or a Canon proprietary variant thereof, and USB charging,
- thousands of AF points (literally!)
- weight with battery and card very close to Z6/Z7 (15g lighter)
but it looks like
- only 8FPS, with a tailwind (lots of caveats, like One-shot AF)
- No IBIS, so no yaw correction and no IS for non-IS lenses, including some of the new RF lenses
- No eye AF
- A single card slot, for SD/SDHC/SDXC; no SD express, CFast or CFexpress
- yet another lens mount, with adaptors needed for EF lenses, and to use RF lenses on EOS-M bodies.
- rehashed 5D Mk IV sensor, vintage 2016.

So I think it is safe to say that Canon RF is DOOMED!!!  Just as it has already been proved that Nikon Z is doomed, and so is Sony FE due to its teeny-tiny lens mount that will never support all-important f/0.95 primes or f/2 zooms. So Panasonic is going to sweep in with an 8K-capable "FF" system and dominate this market! </troll>
« Last Edit: September 02, 2018, 03:24:06 pm by BJL »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #105 on: September 02, 2018, 04:26:38 pm »

I keep reading that Canikon are protecting their DSLRz by releasing mirrorless bodies that are lower end featurewise (one memory card only).

I don’t believe this to be correct.

I believe that they are protecting the upcoming higher end mirrorless bodies instead.

Now, the Z seems to be positioned a bit higher specwise than the R, with IBIS, slightly better specced viewfinder, XQD card slot, more speed (Z6) or more resolution (Z7) but I believe that this is just a decision in terms of body introduction roadmap.

This should not be used to assess the potential of the mount (or lack thereof).

Perhaps the Canon lens roadmap (if they decide to release one) may reveal when they plan to release pro spec bodies to match the f2.8 zoom lenses. I bet that the pro body(ies) will be released in the same timeframe and would bet that will be some time in 2019 like Nikon.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 02, 2018, 04:30:52 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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Dan Wells

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #106 on: September 02, 2018, 06:44:33 pm »

WOW - that Canon 28-70 f2 is a pig - guess it isn't a DO lens... 95 mm filter size? That's larger than most 100-400s, and larger than any 70-200 f2.8 I'm aware of. The only lenses I know of that use a 95mm filter are some of the Sigma x-500mm zooms (maybe the Nikkor 200-500 as well)?

1430 grams? It weighs almost exactly as much as a Canon 70-200 f2.8 (the latest IS III version), or the Nikon equivalent, and about 150% as much as any 24-70 f2.8 (they're mostly right around 900 g, Canon's is a little lighter, and the Sigma Art is a bit heavier). Why build a lens like that for a mirrorless camera? Especially as one of the first few lenses available? If it sat on top of the EF normal zoom range, where there is already a 24-70 f2.8 and a smaller, lighter f4 option, it would be an understandable lens... It might actually balance on an EOS-1 series body...

We have one body, and it's roughly a 6D mkII equivalent. How many people even use the trinity f2.8 zooms on their 6D mkII? I bet most of them are paired with the f4 lineup, unless they are backup bodies to EOS-1Dx models (or maybe 5D mkIV). Why build an exotic lens (and this is unabashedly exotic - I bet it's over $3000) for a single midrange body? Especially for a body whose advantage is mobility?

Of the first four lenses, we have a reasonably sized 35mm, a fast (but big - right around 1 kg) 50mm, this monster and a 24-105 that is reasonably sized for what it is, but perhaps not the first choice for a compact mirrorless body?. Nikon got this aspect right (at least in terms of specifications) - their first lenses are compact and lightweight, supposedly with excellent image quality - we'll see. Fuji has always gotten this right.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2018, 06:52:53 pm by Dan Wells »
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DP

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #107 on: September 02, 2018, 09:04:26 pm »

Fuji has always gotten this right.

you mean with their first slow focusing (because of shitty AF motors) 1.4 lenses ? always indeed
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DP

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #108 on: September 02, 2018, 09:06:34 pm »

I believe that they are protecting the upcoming higher end mirrorless bodies instead.

which will in turn then again be less spec'd vs D6 or 1DXmkIII  ;D ... it will take them no less than 3 generations to get to the point.
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chez

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #109 on: September 02, 2018, 10:27:17 pm »


As a side, does Sigma offer native mount swapping on their Art series?

Yes they do. They can take your EF mount Sigma lenses and convert them to the Sony mount.
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armand

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #110 on: September 03, 2018, 10:36:57 am »

you mean with their first slow focusing (because of shitty AF motors) 1.4 lenses ? always indeed

He was talking about compact and high image quality but you already knew that.
Yes, they are slower to focus but between the 35 F1.4 and the faster focusing 35 F2 I'll take the former whenever I don't need the WR or the compactness.

Bernard ODonovan

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #111 on: September 03, 2018, 01:35:38 pm »

Three of the four new RF lenses have USM drive. Hopefully they have retained manual direct focus, albeit they could be the new linear USM motors and have manual focus by wire...


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faberryman

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #112 on: September 03, 2018, 01:43:49 pm »

I haven't seen any guessing on pricing. The $2K mark among brands is for 24MP. Will they be able to add a premium for 30MP?
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DP

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #113 on: September 03, 2018, 04:24:00 pm »

He was talking about compact and high image quality but you already knew that.

there is nothing special present in Fuji's lenses that is absent in lenses from other manufacturers optical-wise... as for compact-ness - it is simply a function of them being limited to APS-C image circle coverage, that is it...

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Dan Wells

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #114 on: September 03, 2018, 06:36:36 pm »

I'm not sure Sigma will swap mounts from DSLR to mirrorless (or the other way around)? The flange distances are radically different. Swapping from one DSLR mount to another is relatively easy (and they will certainly do that on their Art lenses), because the dimensions are similar - there is probably just a spacer in the mount component (behind all the glass) that accounts for those few mm. The much greater difference between DSLR and mirrorless would mean either a different optical formula or (at least) a significant tube added to the lens behind the elements... Possible, but I'm not sure it's what Sigma has in mind.
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shadowblade

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #115 on: September 03, 2018, 10:48:12 pm »

WOW - that Canon 28-70 f2 is a pig - guess it isn't a DO lens... 95 mm filter size? That's larger than most 100-400s, and larger than any 70-200 f2.8 I'm aware of. The only lenses I know of that use a 95mm filter are some of the Sigma x-500mm zooms (maybe the Nikkor 200-500 as well)?

1430 grams? It weighs almost exactly as much as a Canon 70-200 f2.8 (the latest IS III version), or the Nikon equivalent, and about 150% as much as any 24-70 f2.8 (they're mostly right around 900 g, Canon's is a little lighter, and the Sigma Art is a bit heavier). Why build a lens like that for a mirrorless camera? Especially as one of the first few lenses available? If it sat on top of the EF normal zoom range, where there is already a 24-70 f2.8 and a smaller, lighter f4 option, it would be an understandable lens... It might actually balance on an EOS-1 series body...

We have one body, and it's roughly a 6D mkII equivalent. How many people even use the trinity f2.8 zooms on their 6D mkII? I bet most of them are paired with the f4 lineup, unless they are backup bodies to EOS-1Dx models (or maybe 5D mkIV). Why build an exotic lens (and this is unabashedly exotic - I bet it's over $3000) for a single midrange body? Especially for a body whose advantage is mobility?

Of the first four lenses, we have a reasonably sized 35mm, a fast (but big - right around 1 kg) 50mm, this monster and a 24-105 that is reasonably sized for what it is, but perhaps not the first choice for a compact mirrorless body?. Nikon got this aspect right (at least in terms of specifications) - their first lenses are compact and lightweight, supposedly with excellent image quality - we'll see. Fuji has always gotten this right.

Stop thinking mirrorless = small. That was 8 years ago, and that idea has probably held back mirrorless development and uptake more than anything else.

Yes, you can make mirrorless systems and lenses smaller than SLRs, if you sacrifice sensor size (M43), aperture (f/4 zooms or f/1.8-2.8 primes) or lens image quality (UWAs without a retrofocus or telecentric/near-telecentric design). The lack of a mirror box and pentaprism reduces the lower limit on size. But just because you can doesn't mean you should. Small size comes at a performance cost; if you want a more capable lens, you're going to have to go bigger. You can make a lineup of slow pancake lenses for the 'small camera' niche, but that is just a niche (albeit the easiest one to capture with the sluggish, slow-focusing early mirrorless cameras which really couldn't offer much else other than small size) and can't/isn't/won't be the primary target for a camera company trying to take mirrorless mainstream as an SLR replacement.

Many people shoot mirrorless - particularly full-frame mirrorless - for reasons other than size and weight. Those focusing on small size are shooting M43 or Leica anyway, or have a Sony body with a few pancake lenses; they are not the people currently using 5D4s and 6D2s who need to be encouraged to move over to mirrorless. Mirrorless allows for an EVF with through-the-sensor image preview (including exposure and colour settings), better video performance and (on cameras with the right hardware/firmware) features like IBIS, eye focus and other AI-based focus modes. There are many photographers out there who would choose a mirrorless body even if it were the size and weight of a D850.

The 28-70/2 is a perfect event photographer's lens. It covers most of the useful focal lengths for indoor and small-area events, works better in dim lighting and produces more subject isolation than a 24-70/2.8 and weighs no more than the 70-200/2.8, which is almost permanently attached to one of a wedding photographer's two cameras. Combined with a mirrorless body and a decent flash system (the Sony flash system doesn't count as 'decent'), it provides additional capability no SLR does. Event photographers can repeat many shots (posed individuals or groups) but only have a few seconds to do so (groups won't stay posed for half a minute while a photographer chimps, adjusts settings and re-shoots). They also commonly shoot in JPEG, due to the need to quickly produce a large number of images and prints for collection at the end of the night. EVFs offer real-time white balance, exposure and image processing (saturation, contrast, etc.) previews, making them far better for shooting JPEGs than SLRs, no matter the lens attached. The 28-70/2 on a mirrorless body is almost ideal for this kind of situation - and this kind of situation represents a significant number of Canon SLR users. Just turn up to any corporate or social evening function and look for the photographer carrying a 5D3/5D4 with 24-70 and flash attached. A mirrorless body with 28-70/2 does the same job, but better.

Canon didn't release a 24-70/4, and Sony/Zeiss didn't update theirs, because they already have a 24-105/4 which offers a much less limiting focal length range for the single kit lens user. The Sony 24-105/4 G is optically very good, and there's no reason the Canon one won't be too. And they're not dramatically larger or heavier than a 24-70/4.
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armand

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #116 on: September 04, 2018, 01:08:32 am »

there is nothing special present in Fuji's lenses that is absent in lenses from other manufacturers optical-wise... as for compact-ness - it is simply a function of them being limited to APS-C image circle coverage, that is it...
The statement remains valid. That’s it. There is nothing in what was said about other systems.
Fuji could have made the lenses much bigger with smallish benefits in image quality, see the 16-55, but went with compact and high quality. Depending on the real world results the Nikon 24-70 F4S seems to be in the same breed. The Canon 24-70 F2 is not.

shadowblade

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #117 on: September 04, 2018, 01:28:38 am »

The statement remains valid. That’s it. There is nothing in what was said about other systems.
Fuji could have made the lenses much bigger with smallish benefits in image quality, see the 16-55, but went with compact and high quality. Depending on the real world results the Nikon 24-70 F4S seems to be in the same breed. The Canon 24-70 F2 is not.

Nothing wrong with that, if you're willing to lock out entire large segments of the market (and have them go over to Canon or Sony).

Canon has the 24-105/4 - essentially the same 5D/6D with kit lens they've had for over a decade - as well as the 28-70/2 for dedicated event photographers (and likely as part of a future 16-35/28-70/70-200 wedding kit). If you want a one-lens, general-purpose, walkaround kit, you've got it with the mirrorless body and 24-105 kit (same with the Sony A7III and 24-105/4 G-series lens).

Nikon has a miniature 24-70/4 lens for the hipster crowd, but offers nothing at all at the moment if you want something which gives you more options. If you want the same kind of speed and background blur you're used to getting with SLR, you're stuck with SLR - or moving to Canon/Sony. Same thing if you need more reach - and the extra reach going from 70mm to 105mm is very useful, even if you don't need f/2.8, since it covers a lot of typical portrait focal lengths. 24-105/4 or 24-120/4 provides far more utility in a single-lens walkaround kit, and only weighs 150-200g more.
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Dan Wells

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #118 on: September 04, 2018, 02:40:14 am »

If there is a market among event photographers for a 28-70 f2, why not make it in EF mount? Instead of forcing people to buy a new body, shouldn't it fit the huge number of Canon bodies already out there? Especially because a lens that big won't balance well on a body the size of an EOS-77D - I'd want a 5D at a minimum, and it would really go well on a 1D series body. It's an entirely sensible lens if added to a large, established system as an exotic alternative. Same with a 50mm f1.2 - nothing wrong with having one, once you have bread-and-butter 50mm lenses in f1.8/f2.0 and f1.4.
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shadowblade

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Re: Canon's new mirrorless system - announcement on September 4
« Reply #119 on: September 04, 2018, 03:39:19 am »

If there is a market among event photographers for a 28-70 f2, why not make it in EF mount? Instead of forcing people to buy a new body, shouldn't it fit the huge number of Canon bodies already out there? Especially because a lens that big won't balance well on a body the size of an EOS-77D - I'd want a 5D at a minimum, and it would really go well on a 1D series body. It's an entirely sensible lens if added to a large, established system as an exotic alternative. Same with a 50mm f1.2 - nothing wrong with having one, once you have bread-and-butter 50mm lenses in f1.8/f2.0 and f1.4.

Then there would be less of a reason to switch. Providing this sort of capability only on the new body gives users a reason to switch to the new system. If they had made this lens for EF mount, they would be in much the same position as Nikon, with a new mirrorless system that doesn't provide much of an incentive for existing users to switch across.

Balance isn't an issue if you hold the setup by the lens, with the right hand only used to operate the controls. I can balance a 2.8kg lens on a Sony body with no problems.
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