Photo of caged children

[Alan Goldhammer]

I would think that if your behavior becomes unacceptable, then your behavior is unacceptable. But I'll let the moderators to be the judge of that. Did you notice the question mark?

There is only one moderator over here now - paging Jeremy Roussak

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

And Mexicans will do it for less? ...

Of course. They undercut whatever they could elsewhere. Luckily, they have not "infested" Alaska (yet).

[Alan Klein]

Neither does Alan. Nor it seems like you, if who you hire is (oh the horror), an illegal immigrant. Again, the irony and hypocrisy rears it's ugly head here once again. 

I do want them to pay taxes. I'm on Social Security and Medicare.  If their bosses are paying withholding taxes, that includes SS and Medicare deductions.  SS needs their SS payments.  Also, the employer kicks an equal amount.  Additionally, local, state and Federal taxes would be paid.  They should be paying for the upkeep of our state and country if they're using our services whether they're legal or not. 

[Alan Goldhammer]

Of course. They undercut whatever they could elsewhere. Luckily, they have not "infested" Alaska (yet).

7% of the population of Alaska is Hispanic and of course there is the impoverished native Alaskans at 16%.  I love your analogy of Mexicans being like a 'roach' infestation.  What a wonderful use of the English language, 'infested'

[Alan Goldhammer]

I do want them to pay taxes. I'm on Social Security and Medicare.  If their bosses are paying withholding taxes, that includes SS and Medicare deductions.  SS needs their SS payments.  Also, the employer kicks an equal amount.  Additionally, local, state and Federal taxes would be paid.  They should be paying for the upkeep of our state and country if they're using our services whether they're legal or not.

If the employer is not properly paying witholding taxes that is big trouble with the IRS.   Ooooops, I forgot that the IRS is chronically underfunded and cannot uncover all the tax cheats out there; is it too much to hope that we give them enough money so they can "enforce the law of the land."  Doubtful. 

Don't forget anytime these poor illegals make purchases they pay sales tax (the most regressive kind of tax).  If they have a car they are paying license taxes as well.

[Alan Klein]

Of course illegals don't get the ITIN because they don't want to pay taxes or get caught.  So they stay hidden accepting lower wages and keeping Americans from getting jobs.  I hired our cleaning girl 5 years ago through her daughter who ran the cleaning service.  I didn't suspect anything untoward.  It was only recently when the cleaning girl stayed here while the rest of her family went back to Europe that I've become suspicious.  I'm not sure what's going on.  I guess I should ask her.  But my wife would kill me for screwing up the cleaning service.   It's easier to be a hypocrite than pissing off my wife. 

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... If their bosses are paying withholding taxes...

How are they employed if illegal? W-2 asks for a Social Security Number. For illegals and their employers to be contributing to Social Security, they need a SSN. This is an open question. I do not pretend to be an expert in Social Security, hence the question.

[digitaldog]

I do want them to pay taxes. I'm on Social Security and Medicare.  If their bosses are paying withholding taxes, that includes SS and Medicare deductions.  SS needs their SS payments.  Also, the employer kicks an equal amount.  Additionally, local, state and Federal taxes would be paid.  They should be paying for the upkeep of our state and country if they're using our services whether they're legal or not.

If you want them to pay taxes, maybe now you should ask if they do as unlike Frans, we know it is possible using that W7 form for illegal immigrants to pay tax. You are correct, they should pay. And may very well do so. Gotta ask.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... I love your analogy of Mexicans being like a 'roach' infestation.  What a wonderful use of the English language, 'infested'

I am just a poor immigrant, with equally poor command of English. Is there a better term? La cucaracha?

Then again, if the term is good for the President of the United States, it is good for me too.

[digitaldog]

How are they employed if illegal? W-2 asks for a Social Security Number. For illegals and their employers to be contributing to Social Security, they need a SSN. This is an open question. I do not pretend to be an expert in Social Security, hence the question.

Alan does not need to do a thing for them to pay their taxes!

[Alan Klein]

It *appears* to be real and yes, kind of stupid but not as stupid as her choice in men <G>. Frankly I feel very sorry for her; she's at least trying...
Anyway, the White House did apparently respond to this on Twitter which is one reason I suspect it's not fake:


https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/melania-trump-wear-jacket-visiting-children-separated-families/
Mrs. Trump’s Director of Communications Stephanie Grisham addressed the jacket controversy via Twitter, and shared video of the First Lady wearing a different pale yellow jacket later in the day:

Mrs. Trump’s Director of Communications, Stephanie Grisham should get fired for allowing FLOTUS to wear such a stupid jacket.  Melania's a jerk too.  Don't these people ever think about optics even if the jacket had no relationship with her visit to the border. 

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Mrs. Trump’s Director of Communications, Stephanie Grisham should get fired for allowing FLOTUS to wear such a stupid jacket.  Melania's a jerk too.  Don't these people ever think about optics even if the jacket had no relationship with her visit to the border. 

Why would any reasonable, responsible adult wear that??? I mean, that is something my teenage daughter says 15 times a day and I am trying to persuade her to drop it, so far unsuccessfully. I am flabbergasted (by Melania).

[Alan Klein]

If you want them to pay taxes, maybe now you should ask if they do as unlike Frans, we know it is possible using that W7 form for illegal immigrants to pay tax. You are correct, they should pay. And may very well do so. Gotta ask.

I don't really believe illegals pay taxes anymore than Americans do who also work off the books.  Five miles from here where I live, you can go over to the railroad tracks in town in the morning.  There's 30-40 Hispanic day laborers congregating all speaking Spanish to one another waiting for people to stop by and hire them for the day.  It could be homeowners or contractors who need some help.  Everyone pays in cash.  Meanwhile, if they weren't there, all these "employers" would have to pay more to get legal workers either independents or hire companies that have legal workers.  I know people, Americans,  who are out of work and would be glad to get a day's pay of $75 or $100. But they can't compete with these guys and probably would get beat up if they showed up at the railroad tracks in any case. 

[digitaldog]

I don't really believe illegals pay taxes anymore than Americans do who also work off the books.

I don't know as unlike you, I have no data. I don't really know what you mean by 'off the books'. I have many clients who pay by check for a profile or through PayPal. They, unlike my 'bigger' (some Fortune 500 companies) do not fill a 1099. Nor do they have to. Nor do the people who clean your house. I report all income. Not because I'm some super good guy who always follows the law. I don't want to get audited for one and never have in 30 years in business. Illegals can pay taxes and we all know that is factual now expect for perhaps one person here <G>.
 

Five miles from here where I live, you can go over to the railroad tracks in town in the morning.  There's 30-40 Hispanic day laborers congregating all speaking Spanish to one another waiting for people to stop by and hire them for the day.

That's true all over the country and here as well. Yes, they are called day laborers and they can pay taxes. Does't matter if paid in cash or not. I don't believe none do. I don't believe all do.

I know people, Americans,  who are out of work and would be glad to get a day's pay of $75 or $100.

But while getting unemployment benefits? Is that legal (as we are talking about a misdemeanor of crossing into the US people hoping to save their lives are doing).

But they can't compete with these guys and probably would get beat up if they showed up at the railroad tracks in any case.

Forgive me for considering that an assumption and a massive generalization. It isn't impossible. Like it isn't impossible that illegal immigrants do pay their taxes.
Generalizing all people (Mexicans as seen here) is a disservice to those people. Yes, some Mexicans entering our borders are rapist. So are a lot of white guys, 4th generation Americans.
Plus if you look at the data, crime caused by illegal immigrants is lower than the general population (and yes, if you insist, I can produce such reports or you can use "the Google machine").
IF you have an agenda to keep people from migrating into a country, you lump them all as criminals. Or Varmint that infest your country (Germany in the 30's ring a bell?). Or lock them up in camps because while they are Americans, they are also of Japanese descent.
History often repeats itself when we fail to accept what's happened in the past.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... crime caused by illegal immigrants is lower than the general population (and yes, if you insist, I can produce such reports or you can use "the Google machine")...

That may or may not be true, but neither you nor I can know for sure.

You can produce reports that might claim, as you do, but not prove the point. Reports that you might have seen are bundling all immigrants, without knowing which one is illegal. It is perfectly understandable why legal immigrants have lower crime rates - they risk their immigration status (i.e., not having their visas or green card renewed) for relatively minor infractions. Trust me, I was 11 years in that status.

I've seen one report that attempted to identify illegal immigrants' crimes and the conclusion of that report is what I (but not you) would expect: their crimes are higher than legal immigrants' and general population's. That report was, of course, immediately attacked by the left as flawed, but at least it was an attempt to specifically address illegals.

[digitaldog]

That may or may not be true, but neither you nor I can know for sure.

That's an interesting concept. What I know for sure is, as George RR Martin writes in GOT: All men must die.
I'm not even going to add Taxes to Death, we don't know for sure who pays their taxes.
That suggests you don't know anything to be surely true. Do you believe in god? You did mention Hell I believe. Do you believe for sure, either exists? FWIW, I don't believe in either....

You can produce reports that might claim, as you do, but not prove the point.

How many reports do you need to accept the reports as factual? You have strong opinions and beliefs it appears, how did you come to those concepts when you tell me: That may or may not be true, but neither you nor I can know for sure.

Reports that you might have seen are bundling all immigrants, without knowing which one is illegal.

True, does it matter? They are immigrants. They either committed reported crimes or not. We can't be sure, not all crimes are reported. None the less, the idea presented by Trump and friends is they are (mostly?) rapists, drug dealers, coyotes and he's been clear, as recently as yesterday, they are not sending their best (who they are is undefined, what 'best' means is equally obscure). His base, perhaps you fall into that camp, eat it up and believe that immigrants who enter the US, legally or other wise are "bad hombre" (his words too). I call this FUD. Fear mongering.

It is perfectly understandable why legal immigrants have lower crime rates - they risk their immigration status (i.e., not having their visas or green card renewed) for relatively minor infractions. Trust me, I was 11 years in that status.

That may or may not be true, but neither you nor I can know for sure. So much for your theories when you get the same feedback you provide to others. 

I've seen one report that attempted to identify illegal immigrants' crimes and the conclusion of that report is what I (but not you) would expect: their crimes are higher than legal immigrants' and general population's. That report was, of course, immediately attacked by the left as flawed, but at least it was an attempt to specifically address illegals.

Provide the report then. How old is it? Is there only one or many that confirm the data? You can and should ask me the same questions.
What I'd love to see from you or Trump supporters are reports that these people, trying to escape being killed by gangs etc, are mostly rapists, criminals, drug smugglers and so forth. All those mom's with kids?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... True, does it matter? They are immigrants....

Of course it matters. Your camp tries to portray Trump and supporters as anti-immigration, while all the time it is about illegal immigration. I myself am a former legal immigrant, Trump's wife is ,etc, how can we be against legal immigration?

[Alan Klein]

Andrew:  Thanks for your long response.  I just checked your link and learned you live in Santa Fe, New Mexico.  My wife and I were there in April for three days; the start of a 16 day road tour through the national parks in Utah and Arizona.  What a great trip.  Got terrific photos.  Had I known in advance, it would have been nice to have you join us for dinner.  It's hard to yell at people when you're toasting each other. 

In any case, I Googled taxes and found out the it's estimated that the IRS lost $500 billion dollars ion 2012 to the underground economy because income is not reported.  I assume a lot of the illegals fall into that economy. Who knows how much,  but I'm sure it's a large percentage of them.  In my case, like you, I got soaked for every nickel I earned.  I'm retired now, so I guess I can only complain about taxes on my SS.  Isn't that getting taxed twice? (Alan G.?)

The people I know who are unemployed have long run out of unemployment benefits.  So they wouldn't be doing anything illegal if they worked unless of course they didn't report the income.

I'm sorry you felt it necessary to imply that I called all Mexican rapists and criminals.  I never said that nor did I imply it.  In  fact I find Latinos in general to be very hard working with strong family bonds.  They would be a credit to the country as citizens.    However, it's not right to let people sneak in here illegally.  We should regulate immigration humanely but in accordance with the laws already on the books. 


My own sense is that because America allowed this situation to continue for 30 years or more, deliberately looking away because we like cheap labor, it would be fair to set up some procedure where those here who haven;t broken any major laws could stay and eventually become citizens.  In the meanwhile, we should begin to enforce our immigration laws the way they should have been but weren't for so long.  I don;t have much confidence that this will happen because the whole situation has turned into a political horse race with each side jockeying for advantage.  But I like to remain hopeful.

Something just crossed my mind about the mothers and children we're all discussing.  Where are the fathers?  Something doesn't seem right about this situation.  It seems that the mothers and children couldn't plead asylum if their husbands were with them.  It's hard to turn away a mother and child.  Once they get in, then the fathers show up. So I suspect, some at least may be playing a game and are dishonest about their real situation.  An immigrant can't get asylum because he wants to live in America and get a better job.  You have to wait on line with others for that proivelege.  So claiming they're escaping crime and are all alone may do the trick; but are the claims truthful?  Setting up a two week clearance process where children stay with their mothers and then they are either allowed in or returned to their original country seems like a fair way of handling it.  I think we're going to see that the missing fathers are not missing at all. 

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

...But while getting unemployment benefits? Is that legal...

It is perfectly legal. However, and that's the catch, everything earned on the side must be reported and then it will be subtracted from their monthly benefits. You see how this solutions creates immediate incentive not to work? Why would anyone work just in order to get the same amount of money as not working?

[digitaldog]

Of course it matters. Your camp tries to portray Trump and supporters as anti-immigration, while all the time it is about illegal immigration.

If that's so, why is he making it more difficult to cross the border, legally for asylum?
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/6/5/17428640/border-families-asylum-illegal

The Trump administration justifies its “zero tolerance” policy of prosecuting everyone who crosses into the US illegally — including asylum-seeking parents who are separated from their children by being placed in criminal jails — by saying that people who want asylum should seek it the “right way”: by presenting themselves at an official port of entry into the US (like an official road checkpoint at the US-Mexico border) rather than coming into the country illegally between checkpoints.
But some immigrants who try to seek asylum the “right way” are being turned away and told there’s no room for them now.
What about our friends the republicans:
Republicans balk at Trump’s cuts to legal immigration
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/01/30/trump-legal-immigration-republicans-378041

Yet another:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chapman/ct-perspec-chapman-trump-daca-immigration-family-20180214-story.html

The bill he favors would change the law to bar naturalized citizens from petitioning to bring their parents, adult or married children, and siblings. Only spouses and children under age 18 (down from the current 21) would be eligible.

Trump also wants to abolish the diversity visa lottery, which takes up to 50,000 people each year from countries that are underrepresented in other categories. He would limit refugee admissions, which numbered 85,000 in 2016, to an annual maximum of 45,000.

So tell us, do you believe Trump wants more, less or the same number of LEAGL immigrants to enter our country. Pick door 1, 2 or 3 (I'll ask again, don't expect you to answer).