Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: jeremyrh on June 20, 2018, 02:47:23 am
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Interesting that even in these days of video everywhere, it is a still photo of a child in the TrumpCages that has the most emotional impact.
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Along with a sound recording that has no image.
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Along with a sound recording that has no image.
That audio is far more painful for me than any single photo I have seen.
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So Obamacages have now become Trumpcages?
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So Obamacages have now become Trumpcages?
The difference is, Trumps hands are smaller among other parts, and his cages are much much larger. :D
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So Obamacages have now become Trumpcages?
Feel free to back up your suggestion with something resembling evidence (photographic or otherwise) of children being caged during Obama's presidency.
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It's more than a "suggestion," Jeremy: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/may/29/donald-trump/trump-correctly-tweets-democrats-mistakenly-tweete/
Jeremy, I really should add that that's just one of many. What you're seeing is a huge push from the left to lay this on Trump's shoulders. From what I read in less biased sources like the Wall Street Journal, Trump's doing his best to get this fixed, but his fixes are being resisted by Democrats who want to be able to keep up the misinformation and the pressure.
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It's more than a "suggestion," Jeremy: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/may/29/donald-trump/trump-correctly-tweets-democrats-mistakenly-tweete/
Jeremy, I really should add that that's just one of many. What you're seeing is a huge push from the left to lay this on Trump's shoulders. From what I read in less biased sources like the Wall Street Journal, Trump's doing his best to get this fixed, but his fixes are being resisted by Democrats who want to be able to keep up the misinformation and the pressure.
You should have quit while you were ahead. There may have been children in cages during Obama's presidency, but relatively few, and even fewer deliberately separated from their families. Trump could fix this the same way he broke it, but he chooses not to. It's just another step towards Trump's vision of Gilead.
http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2018/jun/19/matt-schlapp/no-donald-trumps-separation-immigrant-families-was/
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According to DHS, 2342 children have been separated from their parents since last month.
How many children were separated in the 8 years under Obama?
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As Casey said, Andrew, "You could look it up." The point isn't how many kids were separated from their parents under Obama versus Trump. The vast majority -- more than 80% -- of the kids are sent across the border without their parents -- by their parents. You can look that up too. The point is to get this wretched situation under control. From everything I read, Trump's trying to do that. Part of the legislature is resisting. Guess which part that is. And I'll admit that The Stupid Party is acting stupid as usual, but we're at a point where the Dems could solve the problem if they didn't want to continue the pressure on Trump. At any cost.
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As Casey said, Andrew, "You could look it up."
I did:
"Deportations haven't hit the high point reached during the early years of Obama, but one difference stands out in the first year of Trump: ICE arrests of unauthorized immigrants with no criminal record surged 146 percent in one year, to 37,734 from 15,353 over the same period".
The point is to get this wretched situation under control.
Which Trump could do in a minute IF he wanted to!
Question: 6 months ago, prior to the so called zero tolerance, were as many kids being separated from their parents, the same or less? Look it up. What changed? Sessions under Trump ordering this new zero tolerance action in April. Trump could order Sessions to go back to the behavior Trump himself was abiding by with a phone call. He refuses to do this. Then he lies that this is the fault of the dem's when the facts are clear; that order* by Sessions caused this situation to what what it is today. At a massive cost to you and I as taxpayers too. Look up the cost to house the children separately per day, versus housing them with their parents which was the norm less than 4 months ago. What changed? This zero tolerance mandate*.
Now yes, we DO need to follow the law! However think about being pulled over by a cop because you were driving 56MPH in a 55MPH zone. That's what such a zero tolerance mandate ends up doing. I suspect you wouldn't be too happy about getting a ticket for going 1MPH over the speed limit. Yet you broke the law. Further these people being arrested face a mere misdemeanor! For that, we separate kids from their parents and pay nearly 2X to house them for how long, at what expense to their future behavior? It's simply unacceptable and unnecessary. And utterly un-American. The fix is easy too.
Want to put a bet that the upcoming bills in the House that are 'supposed' to fix this will not happen of if they do, the senate will fail to pass a bill? Or if they do actually manage to pass a bill in both houses, Trump will sign it? All this could stop today IF Trump wanted it to stop; he started it without altering the law. Bush and Obama didn't have this zero tolerance mandate, Trump does, by his own action. Do you really believe that it would be better to wait on the one branch of Government to write a new law than just have Trump tell Sessions to back off from what HE started a few months ago, all while more kids get separated from their parents? They can't even produce an emergency bill that solely addresses what to do with kids with parents who face this misdemeanor.
The political will to fix this doesn't exist with the people in power. The people who produced this awful situation in the first place.
From everything I read, Trump's trying to do that.
Are you serious? Maybe you need to read other resources.*
Do you not know the history of what started this in the first place and who started it, a few months ago? Trump is a liar, can you accept WHO started this process of separation/when? He's trying how? Certainly not telling his AG to go back to the previous actions that AG, under Trump applied to get this mess going in the first place.
* https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attorney-general-announces-zero-tolerance-policy-criminal-illegal-entry (https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attorney-general-announces-zero-tolerance-policy-criminal-illegal-entry)
* https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/06/19/the-facts-about-trumps-policy-of-separating-families-at-the-border/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.633714ff9b09 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/06/19/the-facts-about-trumps-policy-of-separating-families-at-the-border/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.633714ff9b09)
I'm sorry if these facts ruin your day. :'(
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How Clinton used to snatch kids from parents' or relatives' arms:
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How Clinton used to snatch kids from parents' or relatives' arms:
And turn them into sex slaves....
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And turn them into sex slaves....
Are you suggesting that the above posted photo is fake?
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Are you suggesting that the above posted photo is fake?
Not at all. Are you suggesting that this one kid, being taken at gun point equates to the thousands of kids today being taken from their parents?
Are you suggesting the 'right' hasn't stated Clinton ran a sex slave operation?
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/nov/04/conservative-daily-post/evidence-ridiculously-thin-sensational-claim-huge-/
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... There may have been children in cages during Obama's presidency, but relatively few, and even fewer deliberately separated from their families...
That there was less of that under Obama is the direct cause that now there has to be more of that.
(Hint: it incentivized sending children across the border, with or without parents)
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Not at all. Are you suggesting that this one kid, being taken at gun point equates to the thousands of kids today being taken from their parents?
Are you suggesting the 'right' hasn't stated Clinton ran a sex slave operation?...
I am suggesting that, when the government decides to enforce the law, it often ain't pretty. Clinton was right to do it (enforce the law, thought the image wasn't pretty), just as Trump is right to do it (enforce the law, thought the image isn't pretty).
Your red herring about sex slaves has nothing to do with this thread, so I won't respond to that.
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I am suggesting that, when the government decides to enforce the law, it often ain't pretty. Clinton was right to do it (enforce the law, thought the image wasn't pretty), just as Trump is right to do it (enforce the law, thought the image isn't pretty).
Your red herring about sex slaves has nothing to do with this thread, so I won't respond to that.
It isn't pretty and as we've seen, it's massively uglier when people like Trump and Sessions go out of their way to make it uglier. Worse, when they lie that it isn't their fault with the facts, as provided, prove that they indeed are the cause of new and unnecessary ugliness. Or do you believe like RLS, that Trump really doesn’t like what he and Sessions have done and can't themselves fix what they created?
I don't expect an answer, like the one's I asked you (pick one of three doors) in the Cooling Earth thread. As answering would submit you to admitting what you clearly don't wish to admit. ;)
Your red herring about sex slaves has nothing to do with this thread, so I won't respond to that.
It illustrates the lengths some will go to fool themselves into believing what isn't true.
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BBC is reporting that an XO is being drafted to annul the policy. Gambit appears to have failed.
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Our hero, what a guy!
President Donald Trump, under pressure from angry members of his own party, said Wednesday that he would be "signing something in a little while" that would keep families together at the border, halting a policy he instituted earlier this year.
The spin (polite for lie) about what a humanitarian he is will soon follow.
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At a massive cost to you and I as taxpayers too. Look up the cost to house the children separately per day, versus housing them with their parents which was the norm less than 4 months ago.
Your tax dollars at work:
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/trump-admin-s-tent-cities-cost-more-keeping-migrant-kids-n884871?cid=public-rss_20180620 (https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/trump-admin-s-tent-cities-cost-more-keeping-migrant-kids-n884871?cid=public-rss_20180620)
The cost of holding migrant children who have been separated from their parents in newly created "tent cities" is $775 per person per night, according to an official at the Department of Health and Human Services — far higher than the cost of keeping children with their parents in detention centers or holding them in more permanent buildings.
What's the cost for a room at a Trump owned hotel, anything less than $775 a night?
We need to save money so he can continue to play so much golf as it was just reported, the expense to the taxpayers for this exceeds the cost for the Mueller investigation from day one!
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/06/01/trumps-spent-far-more-going-to-mar-a-lago-alone-than-the-mueller-probe-has-cost/?utm_term=.c099e366f724 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/06/01/trumps-spent-far-more-going-to-mar-a-lago-alone-than-the-mueller-probe-has-cost/?utm_term=.c099e366f724)
Trump has already played more rounds of golf by our tally than Obama played in his first 39 months in office
Trump has been to Mar-a-Lago 17 times, for a grand total of $17 million in flight and protection costs.
Through the end of March, the price tag for Mueller’s efforts has been about $16.7 million.
In the grand scheme of things money wise, both are peanuts. Trump will save that and more my canceling war games; we don't need that right? Yet:
The 27 times Donald Trump tweeted about Barack Obama playing golf too much
https://www.sbnation.com/golf/2017/3/27/15073086/donald-trump-tweets-barack-obama-golf (https://www.sbnation.com/golf/2017/3/27/15073086/donald-trump-tweets-barack-obama-golf)
He's got to compensate about size it appears.
“Hypocrite: The man who murdered his parents, and then pleaded for mercy on the grounds that he was an orphan.”― Abraham Lincoln (a republican).
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". . .ICE arrests of unauthorized immigrants with no criminal record. . ."
Of course as soon as they're arrested they'll have criminal records. Why do you suppose that is? Maybe because by being here illegally they're criminals? Golly. How can that be?
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Of course as soon as they're arrested they'll have criminal records.
So much for due process.
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http://dailycaller.com/2018/06/19/photos-obama-immigration-detention-facilities
Any questions?
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And here's the latest on the subject: https://www.dailywire.com/news/32069/schumer-says-hed-rather-keep-focus-trump-solve-joseph-curl?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_content=062316-news&utm_campaign=benshapiro
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And here's the latest on the subject: https://www.dailywire.com/news/32069/schumer-says-hed-rather-keep-focus-trump-solve-joseph-curl?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_content=062316-news&utm_campaign=benshapiro (https://www.dailywire.com/news/32069/schumer-says-hed-rather-keep-focus-trump-solve-joseph-curl?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_content=062316-news&utm_campaign=benshapiro)
Context sir:
Senate Democratic Leader Charles Schumer (N.Y.) on Tuesday dismissed a legislative proposal backed by Republican leaders to keep immigrant families together at the border, arguing that President Trump could fix the problem more easily with a flick of his pen.
He (Trump) can, and he stated he will. Let's see if he lies again.
“There are so many obstacles to legislation and when the president can do it with his own pen, it makes no sense,” Schumer told reporters. “Legislation is not the way to go here when it’s so easy for the president to sign it.”
Indeed! Let's see what ELSE in the bill, besides keeping families together is lumped into the bill. If for example, 25 billion dollars for a wall is included.
“Again, the president can change it with his pen,” he said, warning that Republicans would likely try to add poison-pill provisions to any immigration bill that came to the floor.
“Unacceptable additions have bogged down every piece of legislation we’ve done,” he said
Again Russ, do tell us who started this zero tolerance policy IF you can. I've provided some outside facts about who did this, from a Gov web site no less!
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http://dailycaller.com/2018/06/19/photos-obama-immigration-detention-facilities (http://dailycaller.com/2018/06/19/photos-obama-immigration-detention-facilities)
Any questions?
Yes, a critical one: how many children were separated from their parents? I do see this:
The Obama administration prosecuted half a million illegal immigrants and similarly separated families* in the process. So did the Bush administration.
The law and order republicans make this sound like it's a fault Obama did what Trump demands; follow the law. What your piece didn't state is what many of us are appalled by; children being separated
from their parents, parents being sent back to their countries without their children, a lack of transparency (where are all photo's as we see in the article you provided; where are the babies and girls?).
*similarly, bolsters? There's this link on the page you provided:
DHS told TheDC it does not keep specific data from this period on the number of children separated from their families as a result of the Obama administration’s policy, but the data bolsters a claim made by DHS Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen Monday. Nielsen insisted to reporters at the White House that both the Obama and Bush administrations separated families at the border.
How many separated families, over the course of 16 years (two administrations)? I don't see anyone here or elsewhere suggesting or stating it was ZERO.
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And here's the latest on the subject: https://www.dailywire.com/news/32069/schumer-says-hed-rather-keep-focus-trump-solve-joseph-curl?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_content=062316-news&utm_campaign=benshapiro
"Legislation is not the way to go here when it’s so easy for the president to sign it" Schumer.
It sickens me that congress has drifted this far from the founders' intentions about not having a king that they, even in opposition, still try to give the president more king like powers for mere political gain.
This could all be solved by congress, so any hard feelings I have on this subject are directed there.
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It's nice to see so much compassion for these children who have suffered some psychological harm that will not be easily undone. Well argued all you Trumpanistas.
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Yes, a critical one: how many children were separated from their parents? I do see this:
The Obama administration prosecuted half a million illegal immigrants and similarly separated families* in the process. So did the Bush administration.
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Well, if you read the article carefully, you'd found your answer:
“Obama administration prosecuted nearly 500,000 illegal immigrants between FY 2010-FY2016. They referred 1/5 of illegals for prosecution, which often resulted in family separations.”
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It's nice to see so much compassion for these children who have suffered some psychological harm that will not be easily undone. Well argued all you Trumpanistas.
+1. We should hear Womp Womp anytime now. :-X
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Well, if you read the article carefully, you'd found your answer:
“Obama administration prosecuted nearly 500,000 illegal immigrants between FY 2010-FY2016. They referred 1/5 of illegals for prosecution, which often resulted in family separations.”
Sorry no, that isn't acceptable as an answer. How often is often? How many referred were actually separated? Make something up if you must.
Again, you'll be unable to answer that. You're showing us how hard it is to defend something that is indefensible.
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It's nice to see so much compassion for these children who have suffered some psychological harm that will not be easily undone. Well argued all you Trumpanistas.
Every time parent goes to jail, kids suffer. It happens every day to U.S. citizens. Does your compassion mean we should not jail family people? Or that a bank robber, who comes to the bank with his kid in tow, automatically gets get-out-of-jail free card?
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Most of the kids -- more than 80% -- aren't accompanied by their parents. In most cases it's the parents who are separating the kids, not the US government.
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Most of the kids -- more than 80% -- aren't accompanied by their parents. In most cases it's the parents who are separating the kids, not the US government.
The current government is, whenever it can! I don’t know if you are purposely trying not to understand this, or if you are really struggling with it.
You and Slobodan need a job? This just out:
The Trump administration is seeking additional help to combat negative media coverage of the practice of family separation along the border
In an email obtained by CNN, Customs and Border Protection, a division of the Department of Homeland Security, put out a call to all of its field offices asking for additional press staff to come to headquarters for 60 days to help address media reporting on the issue.
The mission will be to "push back on factually inaccurate reporting in the media" and look for reports in the press that contain "glaring inaccuracies," the email says.
Factually inaccurate, fake news; you know, everyone lies but this current administration.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2018/06/16/why-trump-lies/?utm_term=.84e1cb9d196b (https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2018/06/16/why-trump-lies/?utm_term=.84e1cb9d196b)
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Every time parent goes to jail, kids suffer. It happens every day to U.S. citizens. Does your compassion mean we should not jail family people? Or that a bank robber, who comes to the bank with his kid in tow, automatically gets get-out-of-jail free card?
This 'crime' sir is a misdemeanor! Now cry foul that Paul Manafort is in jail for witness tampering.
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Sorry no, that isn't acceptable as an answer. How often is often? How many referred were actually separated? Make something up if you must.
Again, you'll be unable to answer that...
Why don't you ask Obama's administration for the stats? Why didn't they have the exact numbers? Or the media at the time? Maybe because everything that the Rock-Star-In-Chief did was cool and no need for further scrutiny? As we can see from the pictures, there were plenty of kids there, there were cages, similar conditions...
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This 'crime' sir is a misdemeanor!...
That misdemeanor is punishable by up to six months in jail for the first offense and up to two years for repeated.
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That misdemeanor is punishable by up to six months in jail for the first offense and up to two years for repeated.
Up to isn't the same as always sir! The crime doesn't AFAIK, demand each person to be placed into jail before a trial or demand the separation of children. Nor placing hundreds of those children in tents. Your lack of compassion and inability to convince others this practice, new since April, by Trump's doing is noted.
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Why don't you ask Obama's administration for the stats? Why didn't they have the exact numbers? Or the media at the time? Maybe because everything that the Rock-Star-In-Chief did was cool and no need for further scrutiny? As we can see from the pictures, there were plenty of kids there, there were cages, similar conditions...
Why can't you find such stats yourself?
Plenty of kids is how many?
Prior to April and Trump/Session's new zero tolerance policy, there were more, less or the same number of families separated? Or you're suggesting to us that nothing changed in April?
Again, your inability to justify what isn’t' justifiable by providing utterly non specifics is also noted. As such this is another example of CWOBaT (colossal waste of bandwidth and time).
But it has thus far shown who here has compassion and who doesn't. So I don't see any reason to continue. Some of us have work and images to make. Singing off.
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Up to isn't the same as always sir! The crime doesn't AFAIK, demand each person to be placed into jail before a trial or demand the separation of children...
Nobody is "placed in jail before a trial," if by "placed in jail" you mean sentenced to jail. But you are locked up, then you have a hearing in front of the judge who determines if you should remain in locked up until trial or released on bond. In that period, while you are locked up, either awaiting the hearing or trial, children have to be separated, otherwise they'd end up in jail themselves.
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Why can't you find such stats yourself?...
Because there isn't any. The Obama administration did not keep it that way, as I already said.
Bye.
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Here's a question for you, Andrew, and the rest of you who are suffering crocodile tears about all this: Most of these people come up from Central America. Why do you suppose they don't just settle in Mexico? It's farther to go to get to the US.
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Here's a question for you, Andrew, and the rest of you who are suffering crocodile tears about all this: Most of these people come up from Central America. Why do you suppose they don't just settle in Mexico? It's farther to go to get to the US.
Emma Lazarus said it better than I can,
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
It's in a choral arrangement that I recently sang in the conclusion to a concert our group gave and the words are also engraved at the Statue of Liberty. Now I don't know whether your family found refuge in this country but mine sure did, and I'm thankful for it.
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Emma Lazarus said it better than I can...
A quarter of a million immigrants were turned down and sent back home at Ellis Island.
Besides, those were different times, when LEGAL immigration was actively encouraged. Even today legal immigration is actively encouraged.
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... Most of these people come up from Central America. Why do you suppose they don't just settle in Mexico?
According to my, admittedly limited, knowledge of asylum rules, asylum seekers are entitled to ask for asylum in the first country that is not a part of the hostilities they are running from. Not sure that subsequent countries are under any legal obligation to process them for asylum.
Asylum seeking is a highly regulated by international and U.S. laws. Entering the country illegally and, when caught, claiming asylum rights is not one of those recognized channels and will end you up in jail.
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Here is a link to John Moore photographs of the southern border: https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2018/06/on-the-border-with-photographer-john-moore/563282/ It's a balanced representation even though his best known image is the one that went viral of the young child crying out for his parent. Don't prejudge this, just take a look.
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A quarter of a million immigrants were turned down and sent back home at Ellis Island.
Besides, those were different times, when LEGAL immigration was actively encouraged. Even today legal immigration is actively encouraged.
Legal immigration has not always been encouraged as you should know. Immigration quotas have been imposed often and certain populations were favored over others. The nation has not always been hospitable to immigrants including those who came here against their will.
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The pattern to this thread has been interesting. Some opinions were voiced on the morality of what is going on, and the response has basically been, "Nyah, nyah, Obama did it too!" Reminds of when people complain that Al Gore flies in pollution-producing airplanes, as if that's a valid argument for something.
To play devil's advocate, it would be interesting to conduct an experiment but unfortunately it can't be done. I'd like to see what would have happened if those kids were white Europeans.
But to take a step back, I am amazed at the first rate propaganda effort that was put into convincing the richest nation on earth that one of their biggest problems is illegal immigration. Middle class income has stagnated since Reagan, do you really think that is the fault of a few gardeners and farm workers. Your own corporations shipped your good jobs overseas and you allowed the financial sector to rape your economy to mostly enrich people who were already doing ok, and you think that your problems can be solved by spending untold amounts of money getting rid of illegal immigrants who are mostly working in jobs no one else wants? If you want to stop illegal immigration, well ok, I get that, but I can't help thinking this is mostly a diversion and those caged kids are just pawns in a marketing scheme.
But just for the record, if it can be shown that there was a concerted effort to specifically separate kids from their parents as an enforcement tactic, than that must come pretty close to being a crime against humanity. I don't know the legal specifics of what constitutes such a crime so I can't say. But it sure is convenient that the USA is not a signatory to the International Criminal Court.
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The pattern to this thread has been interesting. Some opinions were voiced on the morality of what is going on, and the response has basically been, "Nyah, nyah, Obama did it too!"
You know very well that if separating and caging children had been an Obama policy, Trump would have outlawed it on Day One, just for spite!
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Children are being separated from parents and that is self evidently bad. Introducing what a previous government may or may not have done is not an argument against or for the practice but is a blatant attempt to derail the discussion around what is happening now.
“Trump is separating children from their parents.”
“That is nothing. Child sacrifices were practiced in South America centuries ago.”
“Oh OK. So no problem with Trump breaking up families then.”
Brilliant argument.
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I don't know or understand all the politics of immigration policy in the US, and the experience here in Europe is proving problematic regarding migrants crossing from Africa.
However to claim the these migrants are 'breaking the law' by entering the US, and that is a reason for locking them up and segregating families, is not reasonable from a moral point of view.
Laws have to make sense to work. Many laws have been repealed due to changing fashions. Laws must surely be at their worst when they are enacted purely to protect a position of the privileged. We can all probably agree that theft or violence against the person should be a crime. But crossing a border to seek a better life or to escape from war/violence/destitution/hunger? That is not my idea of crime.
Who doesn't want to protect or nurture their family? But that should not be at the expense of others.
Migration is a problem to be dealt with, but making it a crime is not the answer.
Jim
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Washington Post article on photographer John Moore: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2018/06/18/i-wanted-to-stop-her-crying-the-image-of-a-migrant-child-that-broke-a-photographers-heart/?utm_term=.3e35731feaf8 Good to see photo-journalism getting some ink these days.
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Here's a question for you, Andrew, and the rest of you who are suffering crocodile tears about all this: Most of these people come up from Central America. Why do you suppose they don't just settle in Mexico? It's farther to go to get to the US.
Every hear: It's the economy stupid?
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Every hear: It's the economy stupid?
Indeed. Which then negates their asylum claim.
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Indeed. Which then negates their asylum claim.
Wrong! The two are not mutually exclusive. Read the friggin question if you can: Why do you suppose they don't just settle in Mexico? It's farther to go to get to the US.
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... the experience here in Europe is proving problematic regarding migrants crossing from Africa...
Hence we do not want your indeed problematic experience repeated here.
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Hence we do not want your indeed problematic experience repeated here.
Perfect:
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Perfect:
Cute. This too should have been on the cover a few years back, no?
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Cute. This too should have been on the cover a few years back, no?
You simply can't connect the factual dots between separating children, some infants without a process to reunite them, with Obama doing what you hard right law and order republicans demand; throw them out if they are caught illegally! In such tiny minds, Obama can't win no matter what he does; send back huge number of illegal immigrants or not. That he did the former, with an ounce of compassion ignored by those that have NO compassion.
If you can read this article, in part of it, maybe the dots will appear to you:
http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2018/jun/19/matt-schlapp/no-donald-trumps-separation-immigrant-families-was/ (http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2018/jun/19/matt-schlapp/no-donald-trumps-separation-immigrant-families-was/)
"Obama generally refrained from prosecution in cases involving adults who crossed the border with their kids," said Peter Margulies, an immigration law and national security law professor at Roger Williams University School of Law. "In contrast, the current administration has chosen to prosecute adult border-crossers, even when they have kids. That's a choice — one fundamentally different from the choice made by both Obama and previous presidents of both parties."
I'm again sorry that these facts continue to ruin your life and suck away your compassion for children and babies. :'(
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“Fundamentally different” with the same result: caged children. There is a term for that: “same difference.”
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Hence we do not want your indeed problematic experience repeated here.
Exactly, Slobodan. And we see the problem all over the place. Here in the U.S. we watch people who leave California because of the wretched Socialist stuff that's happening there (check the streets of San Francisco), and then come to places like Colorado and continue to push the same left-wing policy errors that brought on what they're escaping (we call that Californicating Colorado). It happens in Europe with people from the Middle East, and it happens here.
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“Fundamentally different” with the same result: caged children. There is a term for that: “same difference.”
You've proven with that idea, and the time it took you to post it, you didn't read the article. Sad but expected of those not only without compassion but close minded as well.
Obama’s immigration policy specifically sought to avoid breaking up families. While some children were separated from their parents under Obama, this was relatively rare, and occurred at a far lower rate than under Trump, where the practice flows from a zero tolerance approach to illegal border-crossings.
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“Fundamentally different” with the same result: caged children. There is a term for that: “same difference.”
Ah yes, "caged children," a term used by leftists to make temporary confinement for the protection of those confined sound like something it isn't.
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Ah yes, "caged children," a term used by leftists to make temporary confinement for the protection of those confined sound like something it isn't.
The Alex Jones Channel (the leftist) :o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FSnfmJayJ8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FSnfmJayJ8)
President Obama Caught Putting Children In Cages Who Cross Border Illegally
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You've proven with that idea, and the time it took you to post it, you didn't read the article. Sad but expected of those not only without compassion but close minded as well...
Those simpletonistic ideas are not difficult to grasp, even without reading, as they’ve been around in other articles. Nothing new.
What you are basically arguing is that caging 1000 children is ok, but 2000 isn’t.
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The Alex Jones Channel (the leftist) :o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FSnfmJayJ8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FSnfmJayJ8)
President Obama Caught Putting Children In Cages Who Cross Border Illegally
That probably would mean something to me if I'd ever watched You Tube, Andrew, but I'm talking about Jeremy's choice of title.
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Those simpletonistic ideas are not difficult to grasp, even without reading, as they’ve been around in other articles. Nothing new.
Ah yes, all those other articles you didn't read; nothing new.
What you are basically arguing is that caging 1000 children is ok, but 2000 isn’t.
Yes, that and so much more. But your inability to read that of others and utter lack of compassion already proven multiple times here provides evidence that we will get nowhere in this thread, much like the one on climate change.
The difference at least in this post and the two sides is one side provides outside reference with the idea/desire the other side will read and comment (agree/disagree and why). One side has compassion for yes, that additional 1000 children Trump has caged in just two months! One side understands the intent of Obama and the intent of Trump and the results of that intent. I don't expect you to understand any of what I've written or expect that you even read it. Hopefully others will and attempt to engage in what this silly forum is intended for but rarely produces.
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That probably would mean something to me if I'd ever watched You Tube, Andrew, but I'm talking about Jeremy's choice of title.
So you have no idea who Alex Jones is, that he's a leftist* by your own inability to look up who he is without the use of YouTube. I see, like Slobodan, the idea of engaging in a conversation here, with the idea of expressing differing opinions formed by outside references is of no use; you've made up your mind and it's always correct. Further, anyone who doesn't think as you do, is some wretched Socialist Californicating Colorado.
*Ah yes, "caged children," a term used by leftists to make temporary confinement for the protection of those confined sound like something it isn't.
No, it isn't. I've provided evidence why!
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It's more than a "suggestion," Jeremy: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/may/29/donald-trump/trump-correctly-tweets-democrats-mistakenly-tweete/
Jeremy, I really should add that that's just one of many. What you're seeing is a huge push from the left to lay this on Trump's shoulders. From what I read in less biased sources like the Wall Street Journal, Trump's doing his best to get this fixed, but his fixes are being resisted by Democrats who want to be able to keep up the misinformation and the pressure.
Don't confuse us with facts. We'd rather believe the propaganda.
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How Clinton used to snatch kids from parents' or relatives' arms:
Another guy who wants to bore us with facts.
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Ah, Andrew, the famous “intent” argument! Just remember that “the road to hell is paved with good intentions.” That Obama’s more lenient policy was the cause of the surge in minors and families crossings that now need to be handled less leniently.
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Here is a link to John Moore photographs of the southern border: https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2018/06/on-the-border-with-photographer-john-moore/563282/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2018/06/on-the-border-with-photographer-john-moore/563282/) It's a balanced representation even though his best known image is the one that went viral of the young child crying out for his parent. Don't prejudge this, just take a look.
Picture #17 seems like a setup by the photographer.
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Senator Cruz plan to hold families together to two weeks during which a determination will be made to allow them to stay or be returned to their home country seems reasonable.
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Overlooked in this whole discussion is the adverse impact all this enforcement will have on the economy. ICE agents raided a meat packing plant in Ohio and arrested 146 workers who were here illegally. In Maryland only to crab meat processing companies are open for business right now because there are not enough guest worker visas (industry largely relies on Mexican labor for the six months the plants are open; it's temp work). I've seen reports about soon to be problems a number of norther states because temporary farm labor will be in short supply. Most all slaughter house and food processing plants rely on first generation foreign labor; some cases temporary labor. Do not forget that even if someone is here illegally they are likely contributing to the economy and paying taxes of one kind or another. I don't know what it's like in other regions of the country but almost all lawn and garden care workers here are Hispanic as are many of the handymen who do painting and drywall work.
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Overlooked in this whole discussion is the adverse impact all this enforcement will have on the economy....
Yes, terrible... wages for American citizens would have to go up.
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Senator Cruz plan to hold families together to two weeks during which a determination will be made to allow them to stay or be returned to their home country seems reasonable.
What Trump calls “catch and release”, think he will sign Teds bill?
Does seem reasonable to me too; we agree! That is comforting.
Is what Ted proposed different than what we had prior to Trump/Session did in April? I haven’t read Teds bill so it is a legitimate question to anyone who ACTUALLY did read it.
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Yes, terrible... wages for American citizens would have to go up.
Like all those jobs picking fruits and vegetables so many Americans are fighting each other to do, as one example of jobs American citizens want as work.
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Yes, terrible... wages for American citizens would have to go up.
Show me the long lines of Americans who are looking for these jobs. Certainly the lawn care and handyman markets are highly competitive in our region yet why is it that we see so few white or black Americans in these jobs. Heavy construction from what I've observed is a little more balanced but still lots of Hispanics.
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To put things into perspective (bold mine):
It doesn’t look like all families apprehended by Border Patrol get separated — or even most of them. According to Border Patrol statistics, 9,485 migrants were apprehended in “family units” in May 2018 — 306 a day — while the CBP statistics on family separations suggest that 93 people were separated from their children or parents a day after the zero-tolerance directive went into effect.
Source: https://www.vox.com/2018/6/11/17443198/children-immigrant-families-separated-parents
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Well Andrew, I'm glad we were able to agree on something. Thanks :) Now if only the Democrats and Republicans could agree, we may actually get some legislation.
Problem is both sides are using the kids. The Republicans want to discourage people from coming here knowing they will be separated from their children. And the Democrats do not want legislation ending this because they want to use the issue in the November elections to embarrass the Republicans. The kids are in the middle.
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Show me the long lines of Americans who are looking for these jobs....
Of course there are none AT CURRENT PRICES, lowered by illegal immigrants.
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Show me the long lines of Americans who are looking for these jobs. Certainly the lawn care and handyman markets are highly competitive in our region yet why is it that we see so few white or black Americans in these jobs. Heavy construction from what I've observed is a little more balanced but still lots of Hispanics.
Welfare and other government benefits decrease the desire of Americans to get low paying jobs especially if you lose the benefits when you get a job. Frankly, arresting people for violating immigration laws by hiring illegals is the way to dry up illegal immigration. But they have to arrest the owners! Once that happens, illegals will stay home because jobs will dry up and we won't have to build a wall or spend so much on border patrols policing. Keeping open borders and looking the other way just aggravates the situation.
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... Frankly, arresting people for violating immigration laws by hiring illegals is the way to dry up illegal immigration....
Long time ago I suggested a $1 million fine for companies/owners for every illegal worker. But that would never happen, as it would a) penalize the Republican party base (owners) and b) deprive Democrats of voters. Who said there is no bi-partisanship in politics?
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Heavy construction from what I've observed is a little more balanced but still lots of Hispanics.
Careful, as some may read this as Hispanic workers equals non Americans. 24 years of living in New Mexico has taught me, that's not necessarily the case.
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Long time ago I suggested a $1 million fine for companies/owners for every illegal worker. But that would never happen, as it would a) penalize the Republican party base (owners) and b) deprive Democrats of voters. Who said there is no bi-partisanship in politics?
And you and I of many products and services! That's probably why your suggestion doesn’t wash.
Of course you'll tell us that you've never hired nor purchased anything that may have been produced by illegal workers.
The answer of course is to make them legal. Trump might agree if they came from the Netherlands.
That many of these illegal workers pay taxes, contribute to our country and do the work so many will not, may be something to consider.
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Careful, as some may read this as Hispanic workers equals non Americans. 24 years of living in New Mexico has taught me, that's not necessarily the case.
Love that part ;)
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Love that part ;)
More agreements? Maybe progress is possible.
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And the Democrats do not want legislation ending this because they want to use the issue in the November elections to embarrass the Republicans. The kids are in the middle.
Yes the kids are, however, I don't understand your comment about the Dems. My understanding is the party in power hasn't asked them to come to the table in terms of creating legislation on immigration. Now there is NO question many/most have stated they will not vote for the two bills they apparently have had no chance to work on and they are opposed to the 25 billion dollars for Trumps wall. If that isn't accurate, if indeed Dem's have had a chance to work on these two bills, even bills in the past when republications have had control over congress, I will certainly examine that data and change my 'assumptions' expressed above.
Lastly, I suspect the damage is done politically, the Dem's don't have to hold up anything simply to embarrass Republicans. Each 'side' has made up their minds in terms of how most/many will vote in November.
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... the Dem's don't have to hold up anything simply to embarrass Republicans. Each 'side' has made up their minds in terms of how most/many will vote in November.
Agreed on the last sentence. However, the issue, as I see it, is not as much to change someone's mind (although there is always hope with independents), but to energize the base to come out and actually vote.
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Agreed on the last sentence. However, the issue, as I see it, is not as much to change someone's mind (although there is always hope with independents), but to energize the base to come out and actually vote.
Wow, I agree on your agreement and the need to energize people to vote. It's sad people need to be energized to vote. It's rather simple (but could be even easier to register and vote).
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Of course there are none AT CURRENT PRICES, lowered by illegal immigrants.
Get real. Those types of jobs have always been minimum wage. Are you in favor of raising the minimum wage to attract more job candidates? Of course that would also lead to inflationary pressures. You cannot have it both ways as much as would like to.
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Welfare and other government benefits decrease the desire of Americans to get low paying jobs especially if you lose the benefits when you get a job. Frankly, arresting people for violating immigration laws by hiring illegals is the way to dry up illegal immigration. But they have to arrest the owners! Once that happens, illegals will stay home because jobs will dry up and we won't have to build a wall or spend so much on border patrols policing. Keeping open borders and looking the other way just aggravates the situation.
What nonsense. Who is going to work in slaughterhouses and meat packing plants? Who is going to do stoop labor farm work? Your proposal is fine if you want to see the price of food go way up.
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Get real. Those types of jobs have always been minimum wage.
Or far less.
Are you in favor of raising the minimum wage to attract more job candidates?
I'm in favor or raising it so people don't have to struggle, live in poverty.
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Get real. Those types of jobs have always been minimum wage. Are you in favor of raising the minimum wage to attract more job candidates? Of course that would also lead to inflationary pressures.
This may or may not have something to do with minimum wages. It has everything to do with supply and demand. No workers at current wage levels? Market solution is to raise wages until there are. It may or may not result in raising the minimum wage as well. Weather it would lead to inflationary pressures or a shift from profit to wages (my guess), remains to be seen. If it means raising the minimum wage, so be it. Corporate profits and cash are at historic highs, so there is some room for a redistribution without inflation. Yes, you might pay more for your lawn mowing, or you can move your ass and mow that grass yourself (health benefits of such an exercise included free of charge). Higher wages overall mean a stronger consumer base for the economy, as it will be recycled 100% (as opposed only partially for immigrant workers who send a good chunk of their earnings back home). The ratio of middle class income to overall has never been lower in recent history. So, yes, raise the damn wages and salaries.
The current solution is the worst: illegal workers whose presence lowers wages, are not protected well, are exploited, problems at borders, etc.
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Corporate profits and cash are at historic highs, so there is some room for a redistribution without inflation.
Room is one thing, are wages going up by and large? By and small?
The current solution is the worst: illegal workers whose presence lowers wages, are not protected well, are exploited, problems at borders, etc.
How are they lowering wages for jobs only they will fill?
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Room is one thing, are wages going up by and large? By and small? How are they lowering wages for jobs only they will fill?
The quintessential claim by the left: Americans won't do certain jobs that illegal aliens will. This has been debunked over and over, but why not use it anyway?
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The quintessential claim by the left: Americans won't do certain jobs that illegal aliens will. This has been debunked over and over, but why not use it anyway?
Debunked where, other than in your mind?
Can't answer the question about wages going up either?
Can't answer the question about how they are lowering wages?
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Debunked where, other than in your mind?
Read up on it, you may learn something!
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Read up on it, you may learn something!
Done!
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brookings-now/2017/08/24/do-immigrants-steal-jobs-from-american-workers/ (https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brookings-now/2017/08/24/do-immigrants-steal-jobs-from-american-workers/)
Felbab-Brown explains that many of the jobs occupied by undocumented workers in the United States are physically demanding jobs that Americans do not want, such as gutting fish or work on farm fields. She argues, “fixing immigration is not about mass deportations of people but about creating a legal visa system for jobs Americans do not want. And it is about providing better education opportunities, skills-development and retooling, and safety nets for American workers. And to date, Trump hasn’t offered serious policy proposals on many—if any—of these areas.”
Moreover, Bahar explains that the impact of immigration on the wages of native-born workers is very small. “If anything,” he concludes, “negative impacts occur for the most part on wages of prior immigrants with similar set of skills.”
Thanks for reminding me that you often post here on stuff you don't understand (Solux lighting, NEC Displays) and you have a book aimed at the ultra hard core right:
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No Americans willing to work.? Minimum wages? - nonsense. I'm spending $80 for 4 hours of cleaning girl services. The woman is from East Europe, I believe originally on a green card but that probably has expired. I don't ask. She doesn't tell. That's $80 cash, $20 an hour, paid directly to her. If she cleans ten houses a week, that's $40,000 a year. All tax free. We provide the cleaning supplies and she eats our food for breakfast. Her daughter use to run the business but went back to Europe. It's her mother who's staying here for now and working. There's plenty of Americans who would love to have her job.
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The quintessential claim by the left: Americans won't do certain jobs that illegal aliens will. This has been debunked over and over, but why not use it anyway?
The number of illegals doing these jobs is small. Most of the jobs are either done by legals or by guest workers here on a visa. Look at how legal Hispanic population has increased in lots of cities and areas where there are jobs that those already living in the area won't do. Dodge City KS has a big meat packing industry and Hispanic population in the area has increased markedly. Schools are now majority Hispanic and the town passed a tax increase to better serve the populace. there are also towns in Iowa where the same thing is happening. This is not a quintessential left claim but one based on well documented population surveys. Don't come wading into an argument hurling invectives that are not correct.
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No Americans willing to work.? Minimum wages? - nonsense. I'm spending $80 for 4 hours of cleaning girl services. The woman is from East Europe, I believe originally on a green card but that probably has expired. I don't ask. She doesn't tell. That's $80 cash, $20 an hour, paid directly to her. If she cleans ten houses a week, that's $40,000 a year. All tax free. We provide the cleaning supplies and she eats our food for breakfast. Her daughter use to run the business but went back to Europe. It's her mother who's staying here for now and working. There's plenty of Americans who would love to have her job.
Then why don't Americans do this work. All the cleaning services in our area employ mainly Hispanic women.
EDIT added: Why don't you question her citizenship or green card. You are complicit if you do not.
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Yes Andrew, you found something you like because it supports your opinion. Big deal. Economics 101 teaches us that competition from low-wage, non-tax-paying illegal aliens puts a downward pressure on wages. Get it?
And thanks for mentioning my book, again. Love the free publicity!
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Then why don't Americans do this work. All the cleaning services in our area employ mainly Hispanic women.
EDIT added: Why don't you question her citizenship or green card. You are complicit if you do not.
What do you pay?
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I'm spending $80 for 4 hours of cleaning girl services.
I don't think I should ask what she cleans of yours. ;D
You know or don't know if this transaction is legal? Depending on what's clean after she leaves, maybe we shouldn't go there. ;D ;D
The woman is from East Europe, I believe originally on a green card but that probably has expired. I don't ask.
Maybe you don't really want to know.....
If she cleans ten houses a week, that's $40,000 a year. All tax free.
Depending on how many people in her household, that's darn close to poverty level. And tax free is a fact or an assumption since by your own admission, you don't ask?
We provide the cleaning supplies and she eats our food for breakfast.
That is very kind of you.
There's plenty of Americans who would love to have her job.
So you're sure she's not an American and if you're sure she's not, you're fine not hiring an American who may pay their taxes.
Meanwhile, that you have hired this lovely lady, that discounts or dismisses that by and large, Americans do not want demanding jobs such as gutting fish or work on farm fields? I don't see how one has anything to do with the other.
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By the way, my cleaning girl may join her daughter back in Europe. So we have been looking to find someone else. We found this woman who wants $85 for three hours work to clean the house. She's American (I think). So the point is, illegals are willing to work for less. If they weren't here, as Frans said, then employers like me would have to pay more which would then attract Americans. The same is true at meat packing plants. Sure we'd have to pay more for cleaning and food, but American would have the jobs. It appears many American care more about foreigners than they do about their American brothers and sisters.
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Yes Andrew, you found something you like because it supports your opinion. Big deal. Economics 101 teaches us that competition from low-wage, non-tax-paying illegal aliens puts a downward pressure on wages. Get it?
And thanks for mentioning my book, again. Love the free publicity!
For some posting here, I'm sure it's a great read. As long as you don't attempt to publish anything about color, I'm fine with authors of fiction. In fact my preference for relaxing reading is fiction. Just finished the 7th and final Dark Tower novels by Stephen King, highly recommended but alas, no characters like Obama as in your book.
Oh, what I found I like because it appears to be factual. You can of course attempt to dismiss it but thus far, you've applied zero energy here to back up your ideas (as usual).
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By the way, my cleaning girl may join her daughter back in Europe. So we have been looking to find someone else. We found this woman who wants $85 for three hours work to clean the house. She's American (I think).
Don't ask, don't tell? Don't ask, don't care.
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You can of course attempt to dismiss it but thus far, you've applied zero energy here to back up your ideas (as usual).
You really need to educate yourself on the subject of economics or stop making comments that fly in the face of it.
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Then why don't Americans do this work. All the cleaning services in our area employ mainly Hispanic women.
EDIT added: Why don't you question her citizenship or green card. You are complicit if you do not.
There's no legal requirement for me to ask her to prove she can work here because I'm not a business, I'm using her part time, and I don't can't pay withholding and social security taxes on her. In fact, it might be illegal to ask. I also use gardeners who are Hispanic. I hire this one Hispanic who brings other Hispanics. Am I suppose to ask everyone to show identification before they clip the hedges? Well, he does have a business because I mainly pay him by check to his company. So I assume he's legal at least. His employees? Well, I wouldn't take any bets.
Look the fact is as long as you can get cheaper labor, you're going to do it even if the person is questionable. Would you pay $100 to a company to cut your grass or $50 for some Hisplanic who may not be legal but you don't know for sure? That's why we need better laws.
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It appears many American care more about foreigners than they do about their American brothers and sisters.
Most of us were foreigners at some point. Unless you're going to tell us you are an American Indian. Any of those so called foreigners can become an American and many want to do so. Many do so! Of course, we can take the tactic that they should never be here in the first place, despite the attempt to be good citizens and pay their taxes, learn and strive to become Americans.
You tell us American care more about foreigners than they do about their American brothers and sisters, while hiring a woman who may not be an American and you're not willing to ask. I hope I'm not the only one who sees the irony and hypocrisy of such a mindset.
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There's no legal requirement for me to ask her to prove she can work here because I'm not a business, I'm using her part time, and I don't can't pay withholding and social security taxes on her. In fact, it might be illegal to ask. I also use gardeners who are Hispanic. I hire this one Hispanic who brings other Hispanics. Am I suppose to ask everyone to show identification before they clip the hedges? Well, he does have a business because I mainly pay him by check to his company. So I assume he's legal at least. His employees? Well, I wouldn't take any bets.
Look the fact is as long as you can get cheaper labor, you're going to do it even if the person is questionable. Would you pay $100 to a company to cut your grass or $50 for some Hisplanic who may not be legal but you don't know for sure? That's why we need better laws.
It appears some American care more about saving money than they do about their American brothers and sisters. Oh the irony. Oh the hypocrisy.
No, it isn't illegal to ask, it may be immoral not to.... You can ask, you've decided not to. You may not like the answers.
Oh the hypocrisy.
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... and pay their taxes ...
Care to explain how illegal aliens who don't have a valid social security number pay taxes? Maybe you can explain it, because anyone else I have asked this question can't.
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Care to explain how illegal aliens who don't have a valid social security number pay taxes? Maybe you can explain it, because anyone else I have asked this question can't.
Easier than trying to explain to you how to use 'the Google'. Read up on it, you may learn something!
https://bipartisanpolicy.org/blog/how-do-undocumented-immigrants-pay-federal-taxes-an-explainer/ (https://bipartisanpolicy.org/blog/how-do-undocumented-immigrants-pay-federal-taxes-an-explainer/)
As Tax Day 2018 approaches, it is worth exploring a pressing question that is widely misunderstood: do undocumented immigrants pay federal taxes?
The short answer is yes. Many undocumented immigrants find ways to legally pay both federal income and payroll taxes even if they don’t have a Social Security number (which is normally required) and even if their income was earned by working illegally.
Frans, quit while you're behind, deep in another hole of your own digging. We got a plug for your fictional book, isn't that enough for you? You seem to know as little about undocumented immigrants paying taxes as you don't know about Solux and NEC displays.
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Andrew, you keep citing "sources" that simply repeat your claims, without proof. For instance:
The short answer is yes. Many undocumented immigrants find ways to legally pay both federal income and payroll taxes even if they don’t have a Social Security number (which is normally required) and even if their income was earned by working illegally.
What are those ways? And, to use your tactic, how many is "many"?
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Maybe you can explain it, because anyone else I have asked this question can't.
Everyone being only yourself, as I presumed when stating earlier: Debunked where, other than in your mind?
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Andrew,
I didn't ask you to go online and find somebody claiming illegal aliens pay taxes; anybody can do that. I asked you to explain how. How exactly would that work? They drop an anonymous envelope with cash in the IRS mailbox?
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What do you pay?
Pay for what? We do our own house cleaning. On the rare occasion that we need to have someone come in we use a licensed cleaning service.
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Andrew, you keep citing "sources" that simply repeat your claims, without proof. For instance:
Unlike so many here indeed. At the very least, it shows these are not inventions of my own mind, like we saw from Franz.
How many? Impossible to answer. More than none, less than every undocumented immigrant. The point is, it is possible so Franz is again confused and not asking the right people if any people.
Do you have any data that states the NO undocumented immigrants pay their taxes? If so, provide them.
Note too, it seems once again, you didn't read the outside reference. It states clearly:
Though there are many undocumented immigrants who are paid “under the table” for their work and do not pay taxes on their income, many others do pay in the hope that it will someday help them become citizens. Much of the evidence for this motivation is anecdotal, but various attempts at comprehensive immigration reform legislation over the last decade, including the “Gang of Eight” bill S.744, have included provisions like “good moral character” and “paying back taxes” as requirements for obtaining legalization. A provable history of paying taxes is seen as one way to show good faith, should such a bill ever pass.
Anecdotal by admission but that doesn’t mean it doesn't/never happens. Unlike some Americans, some undocumented immigrants go out of their way to follow the law and pay their taxes and try to be good citizens and which to become Americans. But if you continue to read the nonsense from our President and others here, you'll believe they are all rapists and drug dealers, not their countries finest. What a sad impression to have from those who are themselves, children of immigrants. So we have some who are hypocrites and don't want to know who they hire. We have some who are racists of California's who move to Colorado among others, we have some who cannot comprehend that immigrants could possibly pay taxes they don't have to etc. We have some who have zero compassion for children who are removed from their parents. A fine group, but they all believe they are photographers too.
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What are those ways? And, to use your tactic, how many is "many"?
Many of them get ITINs
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... How are they lowering wages for jobs only they will fill?
I do not understand how is it even a question? When they come and offer to do the work for less, employers take it. Pretty soon, there are no Americans willing to work for so little, and bingo!, there is the proof that Americans do not want to do certain jobs.
I witness once a scene where an American contractor sent his team (of immigrants) to do the work. The team leader came up to the owner and whispered: "Hey, I can do this same work for a half. Here is my number."
Have you seen "Deadliest Catch"? A show about a crab-fishing job that is as unpleasant and dangerous as it gets. Have you seen Mexicans working there? Americans are not afraid to risk life and limb to do that job under extremely unpleasant circumstances. Why? It pays well.
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Andrew,
I didn't ask you to go online and find somebody claiming illegal aliens pay taxes; anybody can do that. I asked you to explain how. How exactly would that work? They drop an anonymous envelope with cash in the IRS mailbox?
How, by filing a ITIN (https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw7.pdf)!
What is an ITIN?
It was created for tax purposes. The ITIN program was created by the IRS in July 1996 so that foreign nationals and other individuals who are not eligible for a Social Security number (SSN) can pay the taxes they are legally required to pay.
ITINs are not SSNs. The ITIN is a nine-digit number that always begins with the number 9 and has a 7 or 8 in the fourth digit, for example 9XX-7X-XXXX.
Many immigrants have ITINs. People who do not have a lawful status in the United States may obtain an ITIN. In addition, the following people are lawfully in the country and must pay taxes but may not be eligible for a SSN and may obtain an ITIN:
A non-resident foreign national who owns or invests in a U.S. business and receives taxable income from that U.S. business, but lives in another country.
A foreign national student who qualifies as a resident of the United States (based on days present in the United States).
A dependent or spouse of a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident.
A dependent or spouse of a foreign national on a temporary visa.
Do I really have to continue teaching you about stuff NOT related to color and imaging?
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I do not understand how is it even a question? When they come and offer to do the work for less, employers take it. Pretty soon, there are no Americans willing to work for so little, and bingo!, there is the proof that Americans do not want to do certain jobs.
I witness once a scene where an American contractor sent his team (of immigrants) to do the work. The team leader came up to the owner and whispered: "Hey, I can do this same work for a half. Here is my number."
Have you seen "Deadliest Catch"? A show about a crab-fishing job that is as unpleasant and dangerous as it gets. Have you seen Mexicans working there? Americans are not afraid to risk life and limb to do that job under extremely unpleasant circumstances. Why? It pays well.
Slobodan,
Good points, but no rational argument is going to convert the true believers.
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How, by using a ITIN!
What is an ITIN?
It was created for tax purposes. The ITIN program was created by the IRS in July 1996 so that foreign nationals and other individuals who are not eligible for a Social Security number (SSN) can pay the taxes they are legally required to pay.
ITINs are not SSNs. The ITIN is a nine-digit number that always begins with the number 9 and has a 7 or 8 in the fourth digit, for example 9XX-7X-XXXX.
Many immigrants have ITINs. People who do not have a lawful status in the United States may obtain an ITIN. In addition, the following people are lawfully in the country and must pay taxes but may not be eligible for a SSN and may obtain an ITIN:
A non-resident foreign national who owns or invests in a U.S. business and receives taxable income from that U.S. business, but lives in another country.
A foreign national student who qualifies as a resident of the United States (based on days present in the United States).
A dependent or spouse of a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident.
A dependent or spouse of a foreign national on a temporary visa.
Do I really have to continue teaching you about stuff NOT related to color and imaging?
Yes, explain how this works for illegals! Oh, you can't of course.
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I do not understand how is it even a question?
That's an interesting and new excuse for not having the ability to answer a question. Are you certain you don't want to move to DC and work for the current administration? I mean a week ago, they told us they can't change the practice of separating children from families, only through changing the law, it's all the Dem's fault too. Then yesterday, they did what they repeatedly told the public that cannot do. They need staff big time, there was even a recent event in DC recruiting new people for the White House (despite Trumps lie that everyone wants a job in the White House). Seems a few folks here have proven they are prefect candidates for a job there.
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Slobodan,
Good points, but no rational argument is going to convert the true believers.
Those that believe in facts and science, indeed. Those that believe anything they don't agree about being fake news, fake science, that's another group all together.
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Yes, explain how this works for illegals! Oh, you can't of course.
Seems you wouldn't understand how to simply request (https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw7.pdf) and then fill out this ITIN!
By all means, ignore this as you do so well with other data you don't wish to accept:
Many immigrants have ITINs. People who do not have a lawful status in the United States may obtain an ITIN.
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Melania on the way to visit "caged" migrant children. The media is going to have a field day with this one. A fashion faux pas worse than hurricane stilettos.
(https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2018/06/180621-melania-trump-parka-alt-feature-1.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&w=606)
https://nypost.com/2018/06/21/melania-trump-wears-i-really-dont-care-do-u-jacket-to-border/ (https://nypost.com/2018/06/21/melania-trump-wears-i-really-dont-care-do-u-jacket-to-border/)
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So far, Andrew, we've only heard, from you et al, of a possibility of anecdotal evidence, not even the evidence itself, let alone "how many." But never mind, I do not really care if they pay or not taxes. They are here illegally, which undermines the very foundation of this great nation: rule of law, in addition to economic and social consequences.
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But never mind, I do not really care if they pay or not taxes.
Neither does Alan. Nor it seems like you, if who you hire is (oh the horror), an illegal immigrant. Again, the irony and hypocrisy rears it's ugly head here once again.
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That's an interesting and new excuse for not having the ability to answer a question...
I did answer the question, in the same post, in the most simple terms possible, with examples, so that even pigeons can understand.
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So far, Andrew, we've only heard, from you et al, of a possibility of anecdotal evidence, not even the evidence itself, let alone "how many." But never mind, I do not really care if they pay or not taxes. They are here illegally, which undermines the very foundation of this great nation: rule of law, in addition to economic and social consequences.
Amen to that, Slobodan!
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Neither does Alan. Nor it seems like you, if who you hire is (oh the horror), an illegal immigrant. Again, the irony and hypocrisy rears it's ugly head here once again.
I never said I hire illegals. I do not. My "I do not care about them paying or not taxes" was in the context of that being used as a justification for amnesty.
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Melania on the way to visit "caged" migrant children. The media is going to have a field day with this one. A fashion faux pas worse than hurricane stilettos...
Oh, my!!!
Is that really true or just another fake news? If true, it is incredibly stupid of her and anyone around her. The explanation that "it's just a jacket, no hidden meaning" is even more stupid. No HIDDEN meaning? Of course it is not hidden when it can be seen from the Moon and means what is says.
Sheesh!!! And she is not even a blonde.
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I do not understand how is it even a question? When they come and offer to do the work for less, employers take it. Pretty soon, there are no Americans willing to work for so little, and bingo!, there is the proof that Americans do not want to do certain jobs.
We used to have trade unions in this country that managed to negotiate good wages and benefits for employees. Those are almost all gone with RTW legislation being the rule in most states now. Look at how almost all manufacturing has exited the upper mid-west because the states were heavily unionized. Why do you think foreign car manufactuers site their plants in southern RTW states (or even Mexico these days)?
The lawn and yard services in our area charge a good chunk of money (and yes as a 70 year old, I no longer do my own yard work). The going rate is now about $40 a week for what is a 1/2 hour (at most) job. I seldom see any Americans doing this kind of work other than the one who does our yard (he is the son of one of our old neighbors that hustled his own business when he graduated from high school and does quite well).
Have you seen "Deadliest Catch"? A show about a crab-fishing job that is as unpleasant and dangerous as it gets. Have you seen Mexicans working there? Americans are not afraid to risk life and limb to do that job under extremely unpleasant circumstances. Why? It pays well.
Any job presents peril of some sort. Of course there was also that great film on the Atlantic fisherman who were caught in "The Perfect Storm" So what?
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So far, Andrew, we've only heard, from you et al, of a possibility of anecdotal evidence, not even the evidence itself, let alone "how many." But never mind, I do not really care if they pay or not taxes. They are here illegally, which undermines the very foundation of this great nation: rule of law, in addition to economic and social consequences.
Some obtained ITINs (we of course do not know how many) when the came in on a work visa and then stayed, 'becoming and illegal', but continuing to pay taxes using that same ITIN. Dreamers were also allowed to join the US Military and President GW Bush signed an executive order that set this as a path to citizenship if they completed their military service and behaved honorably. So much for something being a "law"
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I never said I hire illegals. I do not. My "I do not care about them paying or not taxes" was in the context of that being used as a justification for amnesty.
Again, you post without reading. Do examine the word IF below*. But either way, how do you know? Ever eat out in what's called a Resturant?
Amnesty should be provided to people, like perhaps your father or grandfather, who came here to start a better life, who wish work hard, pay taxes, become good neighbors and so forth.
Amnesty should be allowed for people who flee their country to escape death and harm to themselves and their families. Without having to be subject to separation of their family in the process. Without being called rapists by someone who follows a rapists traits (grabbing women's genitals).
Neither does Alan. Nor it seems like you, *if who you hire is (oh the horror), an illegal immigrant. Again, the irony and hypocrisy rears it's ugly head here once again.
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And let's not forget the preferential treatment that has been given to Melania Trump's parents. Oh wait, this was simple chain immigration that those in power right now don't like. Oh the horror of it all.
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Have you seen "Deadliest Catch"? A show about a crab-fishing job that is as unpleasant and dangerous as it gets. Have you seen Mexicans working there?
No, I have not see it. I take your word there are no Mexicans on that show. So your 'logic' if I can be so kind, because you've seen this TV show san's Mexicans, no Mexicans (legal or otherwise, you seem to believe many/all Mexicans are here illegally, the beginnings of a racist trait) or other nationalities therefore work on other fishing boats or do work many Americans refuse to do.
Man, the more you guys write the indefensible, the easier it gets to dismiss those indefensible and creeping into racist concepts.
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And let's not forget the preferential treatment that has been given to Melania Trump's parents. Oh wait, this was simple chain immigration that those in power right now don't like. Oh the horror of it all.
It helps to be mightily white!
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Oh, my!!!
Is that really true or just another fake news? If true, it is incredibly stupid of her and anyone around her.
It *appears* to be real and yes, kind of stupid but not as stupid as her choice in men <G>. Frankly I feel very sorry for her; she's at least trying...
Anyway, the White House did apparently respond to this on Twitter which is one reason I suspect it's not fake:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/melania-trump-wear-jacket-visiting-children-separated-families/
Mrs. Trump’s Director of Communications Stephanie Grisham addressed the jacket controversy via Twitter, and shared video of the First Lady wearing a different pale yellow jacket later in the day:
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Trump: "Democrats want illegal immigrants to infest our country."
I think I own that movie on Blu-Ray.
http://time.com/5316087/donald-trump-immigration-infest/ (http://time.com/5316087/donald-trump-immigration-infest/)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/01/29/ec/0129ec2dc73220b8a6c3bc2bfd3eedb4.jpg)
Although Trump is correct, his choice of words isn't helping any.
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It helps to be mightily white!
Oh, wait! If you are against illegal immigration, you're racist?
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Oh, wait! If you are against illegal immigration, you're racist?
You don't read either (nor know how to find or fill out a form (https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw7.pdf)): suggesting all Mexicans are illegal immigrants is, as I wrote, creeping into racist concepts.
Frans hole, 3 feet deeper.
Will you ever learn?
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... suggesting all Mexicans are illegal immigrants...
Only in your dirty mind.
Point I was making about Deadliest Catch is that Americans are perfectly willing to do the dirtiest, most dangerous and unpleasant jobs if paid adequately.
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You don't read either (nor know how to find or fill out a form (https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw7.pdf)): suggesting all Mexicans are illegal immigrants is, as I wrote, creeping into racist concepts.
Frans hole, 3 feet deeper.
Will you ever learn?
Did you read the form? Did you notice "Getting an ITIN doesn’t change your immigration status or your right to work in the United States"?
I don't know how to find forms on the IRS website? Really?
Did I say all Mexicans are illegal?
When will you stop insulting people?
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Only in your dirty mind.
Point I was making about Deadliest Catch is that Americans are perfectly willing to do the dirtiest, most dangerous and unpleasant jobs if paid adequately.
And Mexicans will do it for less? Those would be Americans originally from Mexico too, or only illegal Mexicans?
Yes I do have a pretty dirty mind. That has little to do with deciphering your text here. You've asked about a TV show where Americans are willing to do a dirty job, but apparently on this show, they are not Mexicans which begs the question I asked. Again, you're not reading before posting! Again, to zero in your focus:
So your 'logic' if I can be so kind, because you've seen this TV show san's Mexicans, no Mexicans (legal or otherwise, you seem to believe many/all Mexicans are here illegally, the beginnings of a racist trait) or other nationalities therefore work on other fishing boats or do work many Americans refuse to do?
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Then there is the case of Trump immigration policy maker, Steven Miller, who is the descendant of immigrants. In fact his great-grandfather failed the immigration test due to ignorance. His mother's side of the family was helped out by chain migration and one of the great grandmothers was still speaking Yiddish despite being in the country for almost 20 years. My heart goes out to Mr. Miller.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-aide-stephen-miller-meet-great-grandfather-flunked-naturalization-test-203424658.html?.tsrc=fauxdal
There are other great examples here as well. Everyone ought to follow http://resistancegenealogy.com/ for further truths.
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And Mexicans will do it for less? Those would be Americans originally from Mexico too, or only illegal Mexicans?
Yes I do have a pretty dirty mind. That has little to do with deciphering your text here. You've asked about a TV show where Americans are willing to do a dirty job, but apparently on this show, they are not Mexicans which begs the question I asked. Again, you're not reading before posting! Again, to zero in your focus:
So your 'logic' if I can be so kind, because you've seen this TV show san's Mexicans, no Mexicans (legal or otherwise, you seem to believe many/all Mexicans are here illegally, the beginnings of a racist trait) or other nationalities therefore work on other fishing boats or do work many Americans refuse to do?
Once again, Andrew, Saul Alinsky would have been proud of you.
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Only in your dirty mind.
Point I was making about Deadliest Catch is that Americans are perfectly willing to do the dirtiest, most dangerous and unpleasant jobs if paid adequately.
You ought to visit a slaughterhouse or meat processing facility to see equally dirty and unpleasant work. I think your example of king crab fishing in Alaska is a bit skewed given the huge disparity of population demographics in Alaska.
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Did you read the form? Did you notice "Getting an ITIN doesn’t change your immigration status or your right to work in the United States"?
Did you read anywhere I stated it would change the immigration status? I did not. **You asked how immigrants can pay taxes without an SSI number. I told you how.
Did I say all Mexicans are illegal?
Did you read anywhere I stated YOU said all Mexicans are illegal? I did not. Guilty conscience?
When will you stop insulting people?
If you ask stupid questions and I don't provide stupid answers, will changing my answers to be stupid satisfy you?
Is it time for you to get banned from this forum?
Ah, censorship, I was waiting for you to go 3 feet deeper and pile that dirt on others.
**Care to explain how illegal aliens who don't have a valid social security number pay taxes? Maybe you can explain it, because anyone else I have asked this question can't.
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Once again, Andrew, Saul Alinsky would have been proud of you.
Alex Jones of you sir.
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Once again, Andrew, Saul Alinsky would have been proud of you.
Far better Saul than Donald Trump. BTW, can't wait for 'Better Call Saul' to return to the TV.
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My heart goes out to Mr. Miller.
You have a bigger heart than I do.
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... If you ask stupid questions and I don't provide stupid answers, will changing my answers to be stupid satisfy you?...
As they say, there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers, so no need to change anything in your case ;)
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Did you read anywhere I stated it would change the immigration status? I did not. You asked how immigrants can pay taxes without an SSI number. I told you how. Did you read anywhere I stated YOU said all Mexicans are illegal? I did not. Guilty conscience? If you ask stupid questions and I don't provide stupid answers, will changing my answers to be stupid satisfy you? Ah, censorship, I was waiting for you to go 3 feet deeper and pile that dirt on others.
I would think that if your behavior becomes unacceptable, then your behavior is unacceptable. But I'll let the moderators to be the judge of that. Did you notice the question mark?
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As they say, there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers, so not need to change anything in your case ;)
Better still:
“If my answers frighten you then you should cease asking scary questions.”
― Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction
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As they say, there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers, so not need to change anything in your case ;)
Far better is Pynchon's 'Proverbs for Paranoids #3' - "If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers."
from his fine third novel, "Gravity's Rainbow"
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I would think that if your behavior becomes unacceptable, then your behavior is unacceptable. But I'll let the moderators to be the judge of that. Did you notice the question mark?
I suppose this is why you're not a moderator here for one.
Did you notice the correct answer to your question that you suggest you asked others about?
Care to explain how illegal aliens who don't have a valid social security number pay taxes? Maybe you can explain it, because anyone else I have asked this question can't.
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I would think that if your behavior becomes unacceptable, then your behavior is unacceptable. But I'll let the moderators to be the judge of that. Did you notice the question mark?
There is only one moderator over here now - paging Jeremy Roussak
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And Mexicans will do it for less? ...
Of course. They undercut whatever they could elsewhere. Luckily, they have not "infested" Alaska (yet).
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Neither does Alan. Nor it seems like you, if who you hire is (oh the horror), an illegal immigrant. Again, the irony and hypocrisy rears it's ugly head here once again.
I do want them to pay taxes. I'm on Social Security and Medicare. If their bosses are paying withholding taxes, that includes SS and Medicare deductions. SS needs their SS payments. Also, the employer kicks an equal amount. Additionally, local, state and Federal taxes would be paid. They should be paying for the upkeep of our state and country if they're using our services whether they're legal or not.
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Of course. They undercut whatever they could elsewhere. Luckily, they have not "infested" Alaska (yet).
7% of the population of Alaska is Hispanic and of course there is the impoverished native Alaskans at 16%. I love your analogy of Mexicans being like a 'roach' infestation. What a wonderful use of the English language, 'infested'
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I do want them to pay taxes. I'm on Social Security and Medicare. If their bosses are paying withholding taxes, that includes SS and Medicare deductions. SS needs their SS payments. Also, the employer kicks an equal amount. Additionally, local, state and Federal taxes would be paid. They should be paying for the upkeep of our state and country if they're using our services whether they're legal or not.
If the employer is not properly paying witholding taxes that is big trouble with the IRS. Ooooops, I forgot that the IRS is chronically underfunded and cannot uncover all the tax cheats out there; is it too much to hope that we give them enough money so they can "enforce the law of the land." Doubtful.
Don't forget anytime these poor illegals make purchases they pay sales tax (the most regressive kind of tax). If they have a car they are paying license taxes as well.
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Of course illegals don't get the ITIN because they don't want to pay taxes or get caught. So they stay hidden accepting lower wages and keeping Americans from getting jobs. I hired our cleaning girl 5 years ago through her daughter who ran the cleaning service. I didn't suspect anything untoward. It was only recently when the cleaning girl stayed here while the rest of her family went back to Europe that I've become suspicious. I'm not sure what's going on. I guess I should ask her. But my wife would kill me for screwing up the cleaning service. It's easier to be a hypocrite than pissing off my wife. :)
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... If their bosses are paying withholding taxes...
How are they employed if illegal? W-2 asks for a Social Security Number. For illegals and their employers to be contributing to Social Security, they need a SSN. This is an open question. I do not pretend to be an expert in Social Security, hence the question.
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I do want them to pay taxes. I'm on Social Security and Medicare. If their bosses are paying withholding taxes, that includes SS and Medicare deductions. SS needs their SS payments. Also, the employer kicks an equal amount. Additionally, local, state and Federal taxes would be paid. They should be paying for the upkeep of our state and country if they're using our services whether they're legal or not.
If you want them to pay taxes, maybe now you should ask if they do as unlike Frans, we know it is possible using that W7 form for illegal immigrants to pay tax. You are correct, they should pay. And may very well do so. Gotta ask.
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... I love your analogy of Mexicans being like a 'roach' infestation. What a wonderful use of the English language, 'infested'
I am just a poor immigrant, with equally poor command of English. Is there a better term? La cucaracha? ;)
Then again, if the term is good for the President of the United States, it is good for me too.
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How are they employed if illegal? W-2 asks for a Social Security Number. For illegals and their employers to be contributing to Social Security, they need a SSN. This is an open question. I do not pretend to be an expert in Social Security, hence the question.
Alan does not need to do a thing for them to pay their taxes!
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It *appears* to be real and yes, kind of stupid but not as stupid as her choice in men <G>. Frankly I feel very sorry for her; she's at least trying...
Anyway, the White House did apparently respond to this on Twitter which is one reason I suspect it's not fake:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/melania-trump-wear-jacket-visiting-children-separated-families/
Mrs. Trump’s Director of Communications Stephanie Grisham addressed the jacket controversy via Twitter, and shared video of the First Lady wearing a different pale yellow jacket later in the day:
Mrs. Trump’s Director of Communications, Stephanie Grisham should get fired for allowing FLOTUS to wear such a stupid jacket. Melania's a jerk too. Don't these people ever think about optics even if the jacket had no relationship with her visit to the border.
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Mrs. Trump’s Director of Communications, Stephanie Grisham should get fired for allowing FLOTUS to wear such a stupid jacket. Melania's a jerk too. Don't these people ever think about optics even if the jacket had no relationship with her visit to the border.
Why would any reasonable, responsible adult wear that??? I mean, that is something my teenage daughter says 15 times a day and I am trying to persuade her to drop it, so far unsuccessfully. I am flabbergasted (by Melania).
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If you want them to pay taxes, maybe now you should ask if they do as unlike Frans, we know it is possible using that W7 form for illegal immigrants to pay tax. You are correct, they should pay. And may very well do so. Gotta ask.
I don't really believe illegals pay taxes anymore than Americans do who also work off the books. Five miles from here where I live, you can go over to the railroad tracks in town in the morning. There's 30-40 Hispanic day laborers congregating all speaking Spanish to one another waiting for people to stop by and hire them for the day. It could be homeowners or contractors who need some help. Everyone pays in cash. Meanwhile, if they weren't there, all these "employers" would have to pay more to get legal workers either independents or hire companies that have legal workers. I know people, Americans, who are out of work and would be glad to get a day's pay of $75 or $100. But they can't compete with these guys and probably would get beat up if they showed up at the railroad tracks in any case.
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I don't really believe illegals pay taxes anymore than Americans do who also work off the books.
I don't know as unlike you, I have no data. I don't really know what you mean by 'off the books'. I have many clients who pay by check for a profile or through PayPal. They, unlike my 'bigger' (some Fortune 500 companies) do not fill a 1099. Nor do they have to. Nor do the people who clean your house. I report all income. Not because I'm some super good guy who always follows the law. I don't want to get audited for one and never have in 30 years in business. Illegals can pay taxes and we all know that is factual now expect for perhaps one person here <G>.
Five miles from here where I live, you can go over to the railroad tracks in town in the morning. There's 30-40 Hispanic day laborers congregating all speaking Spanish to one another waiting for people to stop by and hire them for the day.
That's true all over the country and here as well. Yes, they are called day laborers and they can pay taxes. Does't matter if paid in cash or not. I don't believe none do. I don't believe all do.
I know people, Americans, who are out of work and would be glad to get a day's pay of $75 or $100.
But while getting unemployment benefits? Is that legal (as we are talking about a misdemeanor of crossing into the US people hoping to save their lives are doing).
But they can't compete with these guys and probably would get beat up if they showed up at the railroad tracks in any case.
Forgive me for considering that an assumption and a massive generalization. It isn't impossible. Like it isn't impossible that illegal immigrants do pay their taxes.
Generalizing all people (Mexicans as seen here) is a disservice to those people. Yes, some Mexicans entering our borders are rapist. So are a lot of white guys, 4th generation Americans.
Plus if you look at the data, crime caused by illegal immigrants is lower than the general population (and yes, if you insist, I can produce such reports or you can use "the Google machine").
IF you have an agenda to keep people from migrating into a country, you lump them all as criminals. Or Varmint that infest your country (Germany in the 30's ring a bell?). Or lock them up in camps because while they are Americans, they are also of Japanese descent.
History often repeats itself when we fail to accept what's happened in the past.
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... crime caused by illegal immigrants is lower than the general population (and yes, if you insist, I can produce such reports or you can use "the Google machine")...
That may or may not be true, but neither you nor I can know for sure.
You can produce reports that might claim, as you do, but not prove the point. Reports that you might have seen are bundling all immigrants, without knowing which one is illegal. It is perfectly understandable why legal immigrants have lower crime rates - they risk their immigration status (i.e., not having their visas or green card renewed) for relatively minor infractions. Trust me, I was 11 years in that status.
I've seen one report that attempted to identify illegal immigrants' crimes and the conclusion of that report is what I (but not you) would expect: their crimes are higher than legal immigrants' and general population's. That report was, of course, immediately attacked by the left as flawed, but at least it was an attempt to specifically address illegals.
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That may or may not be true, but neither you nor I can know for sure.
That's an interesting concept. What I know for sure is, as George RR Martin writes in GOT: All men must die.
I'm not even going to add Taxes to Death, we don't know for sure who pays their taxes.
That suggests you don't know anything to be surely true. Do you believe in god? You did mention Hell I believe. Do you believe for sure, either exists? FWIW, I don't believe in either....
You can produce reports that might claim, as you do, but not prove the point.
How many reports do you need to accept the reports as factual? You have strong opinions and beliefs it appears, how did you come to those concepts when you tell me: That may or may not be true, but neither you nor I can know for sure.
Reports that you might have seen are bundling all immigrants, without knowing which one is illegal.
True, does it matter? They are immigrants. They either committed reported crimes or not. We can't be sure, not all crimes are reported. None the less, the idea presented by Trump and friends is they are (mostly?) rapists, drug dealers, coyotes and he's been clear, as recently as yesterday, they are not sending their best (who they are is undefined, what 'best' means is equally obscure). His base, perhaps you fall into that camp, eat it up and believe that immigrants who enter the US, legally or other wise are "bad hombre" (his words too). I call this FUD. Fear mongering.
It is perfectly understandable why legal immigrants have lower crime rates - they risk their immigration status (i.e., not having their visas or green card renewed) for relatively minor infractions. Trust me, I was 11 years in that status.
That may or may not be true, but neither you nor I can know for sure. So much for your theories when you get the same feedback you provide to others. ;)
I've seen one report that attempted to identify illegal immigrants' crimes and the conclusion of that report is what I (but not you) would expect: their crimes are higher than legal immigrants' and general population's. That report was, of course, immediately attacked by the left as flawed, but at least it was an attempt to specifically address illegals.
Provide the report then. How old is it? Is there only one or many that confirm the data? You can and should ask me the same questions.
What I'd love to see from you or Trump supporters are reports that these people, trying to escape being killed by gangs etc, are mostly rapists, criminals, drug smugglers and so forth. All those mom's with kids?
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... True, does it matter? They are immigrants....
Of course it matters. Your camp tries to portray Trump and supporters as anti-immigration, while all the time it is about illegal immigration. I myself am a former legal immigrant, Trump's wife is ,etc, how can we be against legal immigration?
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Andrew: Thanks for your long response. I just checked your link and learned you live in Santa Fe, New Mexico. My wife and I were there in April for three days; the start of a 16 day road tour through the national parks in Utah and Arizona. What a great trip. Got terrific photos. Had I known in advance, it would have been nice to have you join us for dinner. It's hard to yell at people when you're toasting each other.
In any case, I Googled taxes and found out the it's estimated that the IRS lost $500 billion dollars ion 2012 to the underground economy because income is not reported. I assume a lot of the illegals fall into that economy. Who knows how much, but I'm sure it's a large percentage of them. In my case, like you, I got soaked for every nickel I earned. I'm retired now, so I guess I can only complain about taxes on my SS. Isn't that getting taxed twice? (Alan G.?)
The people I know who are unemployed have long run out of unemployment benefits. So they wouldn't be doing anything illegal if they worked unless of course they didn't report the income.
I'm sorry you felt it necessary to imply that I called all Mexican rapists and criminals. I never said that nor did I imply it. In fact I find Latinos in general to be very hard working with strong family bonds. They would be a credit to the country as citizens. However, it's not right to let people sneak in here illegally. We should regulate immigration humanely but in accordance with the laws already on the books.
My own sense is that because America allowed this situation to continue for 30 years or more, deliberately looking away because we like cheap labor, it would be fair to set up some procedure where those here who haven;t broken any major laws could stay and eventually become citizens. In the meanwhile, we should begin to enforce our immigration laws the way they should have been but weren't for so long. I don;t have much confidence that this will happen because the whole situation has turned into a political horse race with each side jockeying for advantage. But I like to remain hopeful.
Something just crossed my mind about the mothers and children we're all discussing. Where are the fathers? Something doesn't seem right about this situation. It seems that the mothers and children couldn't plead asylum if their husbands were with them. It's hard to turn away a mother and child. Once they get in, then the fathers show up. So I suspect, some at least may be playing a game and are dishonest about their real situation. An immigrant can't get asylum because he wants to live in America and get a better job. You have to wait on line with others for that proivelege. So claiming they're escaping crime and are all alone may do the trick; but are the claims truthful? Setting up a two week clearance process where children stay with their mothers and then they are either allowed in or returned to their original country seems like a fair way of handling it. I think we're going to see that the missing fathers are not missing at all.
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...But while getting unemployment benefits? Is that legal...
It is perfectly legal. However, and that's the catch, everything earned on the side must be reported and then it will be subtracted from their monthly benefits. You see how this solutions creates immediate incentive not to work? Why would anyone work just in order to get the same amount of money as not working?
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Of course it matters. Your camp tries to portray Trump and supporters as anti-immigration, while all the time it is about illegal immigration.
If that's so, why is he making it more difficult to cross the border, legally for asylum?
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/6/5/17428640/border-families-asylum-illegal (https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/6/5/17428640/border-families-asylum-illegal)
The Trump administration justifies its “zero tolerance” policy of prosecuting everyone who crosses into the US illegally — including asylum-seeking parents who are separated from their children by being placed in criminal jails — by saying that people who want asylum should seek it the “right way”: by presenting themselves at an official port of entry into the US (like an official road checkpoint at the US-Mexico border) rather than coming into the country illegally between checkpoints.
But some immigrants who try to seek asylum the “right way” are being turned away and told there’s no room for them now.
What about our friends the republicans:
Republicans balk at Trump’s cuts to legal immigration
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/01/30/trump-legal-immigration-republicans-378041 (https://www.politico.com/story/2018/01/30/trump-legal-immigration-republicans-378041)
Yet another:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chapman/ct-perspec-chapman-trump-daca-immigration-family-20180214-story.html (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chapman/ct-perspec-chapman-trump-daca-immigration-family-20180214-story.html)
The bill he favors would change the law to bar naturalized citizens from petitioning to bring their parents, adult or married children, and siblings. Only spouses and children under age 18 (down from the current 21) would be eligible.
Trump also wants to abolish the diversity visa lottery, which takes up to 50,000 people each year from countries that are underrepresented in other categories. He would limit refugee admissions, which numbered 85,000 in 2016, to an annual maximum of 45,000.
So tell us, do you believe Trump wants more, less or the same number of LEAGL immigrants to enter our country. Pick door 1, 2 or 3 (I'll ask again, don't expect you to answer).
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It is perfectly legal.
If you say so, sure.
However, and that's the catch, everything earned on the side must be reported and then it will be subtracted from their monthly benefits. You see how this solutions creates immediate incentive not to work? Why would anyone work just in order to get the same amount of money as not working?
Why? It may seem odd to you, some do wish to work, some do have integrity, some strive to play by the rules etc. All, no. None, no. Unless you believe, like Trump, these people are an infestation.
Wasn't an issue for his white wife of course.
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In any case, I Googled taxes and found out the it's estimated that the IRS lost $500 billion dollars ion 2012 to the underground economy because income is not reported.
Not surprising. That underground economy includes Americans who sell illegal drugs right?
I'm sorry you felt it necessary to imply that I called all Mexican rapists and criminals.
Did I, where? If you believe I did, I apologize. I know what Trump has said. I don't believe I said (nor do I believe he feels) ALL Mexicans are rapists. Such a statement is ridiculous!
I get bent out of shape when I hear people say or write "Everyone agrees...." I don't believe everyone agrees on ANYTHING. Or "Everyone Knows" for that matter; it's a bogus concept. I'm kind of OK with "Most people" better "Many people". How many?
I never said that nor did I imply it.
Again, where did I imply you did?
Something just crossed my mind about the mothers and children we're all discussing. Where are the fathers?
An impossible question to answer accuracy but some are dead (which is why the others are fleeing). Some are already in this country, waiting for the rest of their families. They go first, expect the family to follow. I suppose some don't have fathers etc. How is this important?
Something doesn't seem right about this situation. It seems that the mothers and children couldn't plead asylum if their husbands were with them.
Now what makes you say that? The father is killed and the rest of the family flee; you're saying they should NOT be able to plead asylum? Seriously?
It's hard to turn away a mother and child
It would be hard for you, and me! It's not so hard for the current administration. That's exactly what they are doing! Ask Stephen Miller if he thinks that's hard. Seems not.
Once they get in, then the fathers show up.
That's a problem why? Can you attempt to imagine a situation where the husband travels 2000 miles first, to let their families know it's even possible? Or how to do so?
So I suspect, some at least may be playing a game and are dishonest about their real situation.
You suspect, I get that. I don't find the suspicions justified.
An immigrant can't get asylum because he wants to live in America and get a better job
He can if where he came from was one of the most dangerous places in the world, where he/she could get killed for walking down the wrong street. For refusing to allow his kids to join a gang AND he also wants a job. With all due respect, are you really thinking about what's going on in these countries, the life people who live there face to stay alive, or eat?
Remember that North Korean solider who ran into South Korean last year, got shot in the back trying to escape? Let him die bleeding because he ran first, left his family (perhaps) back in N Korea? You think the choices are that much different from someone in El Salvador?
You have to wait on line with others for that proivelege.
If you're allowed that privilege, see my post about how Trump is making this more difficult.
So claiming they're escaping crime and are all alone may do the trick; but are the claims truthful?
All I can say is probably based upon what's going on in the countries they come from.
Let me ask you, where did you (or more likely) your parents come from and did they have to flee violence and prove this to get into the US? Did ALL immigrants that now reside here? I don't think so.
I think we're going to see that the missing fathers are not missing at all.
I don't see how it matters. Is it possible you, or others here had immigrated to this country long ago, without a father and why would they only be allowed to do so because they had a father? I really think you need to think about the history of immigration in this country and consider what other's did to get here and why. Then think about the contributions they made to this fine country. Please. Consider the history, your history, the history of others since this country was formed. Think about what those people had and today's people have to do to immigrate here, then think about what the current administration is doing about all this. It's sad, it's un-American. It's expensive and it's unnecessary. And BTW, seems the Republicans in power where again unable on their own to even pass a bill today in ONE branch.
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Andrew, your need to parse every word and sentence someone writes and question it and respond line by line is now bordering on pathological.
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... So tell us, do you believe Trump wants more, less or the same number of LEGAL immigrants to enter our country. Pick door 1, 2 or 3 (I'll ask again, don't expect you to answer).
I do not know what Trump wants, I'll respond what I think about it: legal immigration has always had rules, it has never been free for all. Those rules reflect the needs and interests of the U.S. at each particular time. They are not immutable. Changing the rules to limit certain type of immigration is possible and desirable. I am personally against the chain immigration and favor the more restrictive rules. The same with Indian H1b mills. The system has been played by some and it is time to tighten the rules.
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Andrew, your need to parse every word and sentence someone writes and question it and respond line by line is now bordering on pathological.
Then move on. I'm OK with that. You can't answer a direct question to back up your text. Why are you here? Oh sorry another question you refuse to answer.
Considering a few people here who post without reading what other's have stated, I have to parse a lot of text to concentrate what I thought were native English speakers (?) to for one, cease putting words in my mouth. I've had one person accuse me of calling them a racist; no I did not. I had one person here state I implied the W7 changes a immigration status (no, I was simply answering his question about how they can pay taxes without an SSI number). Gotta parse words when people here simply can't read and comprehended the text, then make up a meaning that was never made. You're of course guilty too and yet, I try to continue engaging in the discussion despite all this and an utter lack of a reply to my questions about how and why your minds work.
I was of course right yesterday, this has become a CWOBaT (colossal waste of bandwidth and time).
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I do not know what Trump wants....
Read his words. Better, see his actions.
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Andrew
Thanks for sharing I didn't realize what a deep understanding you have of the issues you have discussed. From years of reading your posts regarding photography I really have enjoyed your wit and admired you, these posts you have made concerning "Photo of caged children" are well though out. Why OP don't just believe in your view and take your words as fact your thinking. Most of the pictures your seeing are from the last administration.
I would suggest that you check your facts out though and keep your ears and eyes wide open so you can see the real truth for yourself instead of believing what someone else wants you to believe. I think either the thin air or shear boredom has led you to believe this is a new issue. When the facts are its been going on for decades decades no not a double word just in case you missed the first one.
These lousy laws have been on the books for decades. Dump your hatred and find the real Andrew. We have a Senate and Congress composed of many smart people who for the last 30 years can't figure it out. So why try to show your ignorance on this subject and ruin all the years of hard work you have put into Photography. I have several acquaintances whom have tried this same route and it hasn't ended pretty for them.
Andrew save yourself while you still have a chance.
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... Oh sorry another question you refuse to answer...
I generally refrain from answering your non-sensical, straw-man questions.
By the way, for someone who only recently discovered what a straw-man argument is, and late in life, you've become awfully skillful in using it frequently.
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Andrew
Thanks for sharing I didn't realize what a deep understanding you have of the issues you have discussed. From years of reading your posts regarding photography I really have enjoyed your wit and admired you, these posts you have made concerning "Photo of caged children" are well though out. Why OP don't just believe in your view and take your words as fact your thinking. Most of the pictures your seeing are from the last administration.
Thanks.
I would suggest that you check your facts out though and keep your ears and eyes wide open so you can see the real truth for yourself instead of believing what someone else wants you to believe
That's my goal.
I think either the thin air or shear boredom has led you to believe this is a new issue. When the facts are its been going on for decades decades no not a double word just in case you missed the first one.
I don't believe it's new. I think it's worse recently.
These lousy laws have been on the books for decades. Dump your hatred and find the real Andrew. We have a Senate and Congress composed of many smart people who for the last 30 years can't figure it out. So why try to show your ignorance on this subject and ruin all the years of hard work you have put into Photography. I have several acquaintances whom have tried this same route and it hasn't ended pretty for them.
Andrew save yourself while you still have a chance.
Thanks, I'll try.....
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... So why try to show your ignorance on this subject and ruin all the years of hard work you have put into Photography.
Andrew save yourself while you still have a chance.
;D ;D ;D
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Open borders, Yeah!
Los Angeles circa 2075
(https://i2.wp.com/newobserveronline.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Rocinha-1.jpg?fit=800%2C524)
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This entire topic raises deep philosophical questions about social equality and freedom.
In an ideal world with an ideal free market, there would be no restrictions on anyone moving to any country they preferred, except for criminals in jail, of course.
I did a lot of travelling in my youth, sometimes working illegally in countries I visited. For example, I arrived in Iran on a 2-week transit visa in 1962, yet stayed 10 months in Tehran teaching English, proof reading the local English language newspaper, and even had a job as a warehouse supervisor with an American company for part of that time I was in Tehran.
When I decided to leave Iran, after saving a sufficient amount of money to continue my travels, it wasn't possible to hide the fact that I'd overstayed my visa and that I didn't have a work permit. But no big deal. I just had to front up in court and pay a fine, which I could easily afford because of the money I'd saved during the 10 month period I'd been working. In fact, I had enough money to buy my first SLR with interchangeable lenses, the Pentax Spotmatic, which I bought whilst passing through the duty-free port of Penang on my way to Thailand.
In Thailand I continued to work illegally, without even thinking or worrying about it. When my visa expired, I simply visited a neighbouring country, such as Lao or Burma, and returned with a new visa. Eventually, the owner of a Commercial College in Bangkok got me a residence visa and a work permit so I could teach legally at his college, as well as giving private tuition.
The entire experience was a wonderful adventure, however it needs to be emphasized that I was a person from a developed country (the UK), visiting undeveloped countries. I had something significant to offer.
The current situation of literally millions of refugees fleeing war zones and/or deep poverty in dysfunctional countries, trying to gain acceptance in rich and well-organised countries, is the opposite to my situation as a 1960's hippie.
This is a major problem in Australia, which is understandably an attractive destination for all refugees because of Australia's excellent social security network, which is much better than America's, relatively high standard of living, and relative freedom from serious racial conflict and gun massacres.
I chose Australia as my preferred country of residence because I like the climate, which is warmer than in the UK, and I like the less class-conscious, egalitarian attitude of Australians, and I like the fact that we are not over populated, and so on.
I can understand perfectly why any refugee, or underprivileged and poverty-stricken person, would choose Australia as a preferred destination, if there were no restriction.
However, without restrictions on immigration, Australia would be flooded with immigrants seeking a better life, as would the US. That's the problem.
The purpose of all these apparently inhumane treatments of illegal immigrants and queue-jumper refugees, is to reduce the number trying to enter the country illegally, by sending a message to those who are contemplating an illegal entry, that it's not worth it.
This is the same principle that's in effect with the judicial system of capital punishment and jail sentences. We not only jail criminals, and sometimes hang them, in order to protect the public from the criminals' possible future bad behaviour, but the treatment of the criminals also acts as a deterrent to other potential criminals.
Each country has the right to decide who it is going to accept as a new citizen, just as each family has the right to accept which visitor will have access to their own home.
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Ray, I didn't know you were a hippie. Something interesting I now know about you. You've become so normal, regular. Boring!
Sorry. I meant conventional. :)
The original attempt to separate mother and child was as you said to send a message to others not to attempt to illegally come here. But then it got political. Democrats saw an opening and used their usual guilt game to make everyone feel like a cretin for splitting families. Well, it is unattractive but makes sense of you want to stop illegal entries. So here we are fighting again and will until the November elections. Then we'll start over again in January as we fight until the 2020 elections. Meanwhile, little will get done.
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The heat:light ratio of this thread is too large.
Jeremy