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Author Topic: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018  (Read 75370 times)

Telecaster

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1480 on: December 15, 2018, 04:06:20 pm »

Re. 50mm lenses (and most other focal lengths), we're at the point now where resolution has little if anything to do with which one I choose for a given purpose. They're all more than good enough in this respect, and in this judgment I include lenses going back to the 1950s. Even pre-WWII, uncoated lenses are fine so long as you avoid flare-y situations. (The flare these lenses tend to produce isn't the cool, cinematic stuff but the "huge blobs of low-contrast washout" kind.) At some point it's best IMO to let the geekery go and just enjoy the imaging character of your favorites.

-Dave-
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kers

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1481 on: December 15, 2018, 08:15:24 pm »

Re. 50mm lenses (and most other focal lengths), we're at the point now where resolution has little if anything to do with which one I choose for a given purpose. They're all more than good enough in this respect, and in this judgment I include lenses going back to the 1950s. Even pre-WWII, uncoated lenses are fine so long as you avoid flare-y situations. (The flare these lenses tend to produce isn't the cool, cinematic stuff but the "huge blobs of low-contrast washout" kind.) At some point it's best IMO to let the geekery go and just enjoy the imaging character of your favorites.

-Dave-
So, I understand you did not buy new 50mm stuff since the 1950's...?
(I thought you did buy a 40mm zeiss?)
So just - not shoot against the sun?
There are so much different kind of photographs and photographers ...
Also we all want to make some kind of progress...
The architectural kind of photographer ( me for one-) likes that the corners are good at infinity.
Not many 50mm do that wide open...
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 08:19:07 pm by kers »
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johnvanatta

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1482 on: December 15, 2018, 10:10:26 pm »

Unfortunately (for me) my favorite properties in a lens are:

- Small and light
- Sharp across the field, not just in the center
- Minimal color aberrations
- Weather sealing

So, I'm kind of stuck in a narrow range of new, rather expensive lenses  :-X
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Dan Wells

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1483 on: December 15, 2018, 10:14:39 pm »

Here's the citation on 7.5 stops... Not quite sure I believe it - these rumor sites publish from relatively random sources, and are cagey about it (so we don't know if it's a real insider or not). The comment that 6.5 stops is approaching a limit imposed by the rotation of the Earth is from an attributed Olympus interview on Imaging Resource about a year and a half ago, and probably reliable.

If the 7.5 stop figure has any truth at all, I suspect that it's under certain circumstances... I could see them claiming it if the 12-100 (the lens they always use - it has very good built-in IS that interacts with the body IS) is sharp at 100 mm and 3/4 second. I've shot a friend's copy of it at 60mm and 1/2 second on an existing E-M1 mkII with acceptable results, so I would sort of believe it's possible.

They'll claim 1/250 as the shutter speed needed without stabilization (based on pixel density and field of view), so 1/125 is already one stop. 1/60 is 2, 1/30 is 3, 1/15 is 4 (most conventional IS systems would drop out around here with a 200 mm FOV equivalent), 1/8 is 5, 1/4 is 6, 1/2 is 7 stops.  I don't think they are really talking about a 6 second shutter speed at 12mm on their favorite 12-100 lens... The other possibility is that they get to 1/4 second on the 300mm lens (600 mm field of view) and claim victory... Whether or not that's really 7.5 stops (it is if you claim 1/750 second as the no-stabilizer speed), it's impressive.

However they do it, I'm sure the E-M1X will have really impressive stabilization. Probably so much that it's overkill for most stills other than previously impossible pursuits like handheld astrophotography - but it'll make for super-stable video without a gimbal...
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Dan Wells

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1484 on: December 15, 2018, 10:19:03 pm »

The narrow range of relatively new, expensive lenses Johnvanatta mentions has a bunch of new members from both Nikon and Canon's mirrorless systems... A lot of Fuji glass and the lighter Sony G-Masters for company (plus the Olympus Pro lenses if you can live with the sensor limits)...
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johnvanatta

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1485 on: December 15, 2018, 11:54:19 pm »

Yeah, there's no way stops are a great measure of whatever limitation it is they're referring to. The lower frequency movement from the breathing cycle isn't the same as hand jitters. Stabilization also has diminishing returns, as more and more things start to move quickly relative to the shutter. Fast people at 1/80th, slow people at 1/40th, branches and grass wiggling at 1/10th, etc. Perhaps the e-mix will have a ISO 64 or 50 mode like the Z7 to make more use of it--it'd be a great combination of features.

I bought a Z7 partly because of the promise of the S line of lenses. In 3 years, Nikon may well have more that check all four of my boxes than anyone. They're on a roll so far.
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SrMi

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1486 on: December 16, 2018, 12:24:26 am »

Here's the citation on 7.5 stops... Not quite sure I believe it - these rumor sites publish from relatively random sources, and are cagey about it (so we don't know if it's a real insider or not). The comment that 6.5 stops is approaching a limit imposed by the rotation of the Earth is from an attributed Olympus interview on Imaging Resource about a year and a half ago, and probably reliable.

If the 7.5 stop figure has any truth at all, I suspect that it's under certain circumstances... I could see them claiming it if the 12-100 (the lens they always use - it has very good built-in IS that interacts with the body IS) is sharp at 100 mm and 3/4 second. I've shot a friend's copy of it at 60mm and 1/2 second on an existing E-M1 mkII with acceptable results, so I would sort of believe it's possible.

They'll claim 1/250 as the shutter speed needed without stabilization (based on pixel density and field of view), so 1/125 is already one stop. 1/60 is 2, 1/30 is 3, 1/15 is 4 (most conventional IS systems would drop out around here with a 200 mm FOV equivalent), 1/8 is 5, 1/4 is 6, 1/2 is 7 stops.  I don't think they are really talking about a 6 second shutter speed at 12mm on their favorite 12-100 lens... The other possibility is that they get to 1/4 second on the 300mm lens (600 mm field of view) and claim victory... Whether or not that's really 7.5 stops (it is if you claim 1/750 second as the no-stabilizer speed), it's impressive.

However they do it, I'm sure the E-M1X will have really impressive stabilization. Probably so much that it's overkill for most stills other than previously impossible pursuits like handheld astrophotography - but it'll make for super-stable video without a gimbal...

Thank you for the link, Dan! I am sure that E-M1X will be a technological marvel. It is mentioned that it should be able to do high-res shots at 1/60s. Olympus may need very impressive stabilization to accomplish that.
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Dan Wells

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1487 on: December 16, 2018, 01:17:20 am »

The "more and more things start to move below 1/60" point is a great one - although there is an interesting corollary if you can stabilize 1/8 (or so) or slower. Below about 1/8, more and more things you want to move start moving relative to the shutter. Think shiny water, interesting motion blurs and interestingly panned action shots. Stabilization rarely gets you that low - that generally takes camera support - but I've done a few handheld water blurs on the Z7 (which has the best non-Olympus stabilizer I've used - note that my limited Sony experience is all with pre-IBIS bodies), and the Olympi can stabilize even more than that...

As interesting as I think Olympus' stabilizer claims are, I'm dubious of the EM1x in general - if the price and size are where they say they are, literally every non-Leica competitor is full-frame. I just think it's unlikely that a $3000 camera that gives up two stops to the competition right off the bat will sell well.  I'd rather see Olympus focus on a $1300-$1500 E-M1 mkIII that will continue the mk II's legacy as by far the smallest and cheapest real sports/action camera around.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 01:24:38 am by Dan Wells »
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Telecaster

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1488 on: December 16, 2018, 03:24:25 pm »

So, I understand you did not buy new 50mm stuff since the 1950's...?

Deliberate misreading. Pfffft.

-Dave-
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BJL

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Nikonís new mirrorless system, 2-stops only when a far bigger aperture is usable
« Reply #1489 on: December 17, 2018, 11:16:30 am »

I'm dubious of the EM1x in general ... a $3000 camera that gives up two stops to the competition right off the bat ...
It is a fallacyóor at least rather misleadingóto say that a 4/3" sensor gives up two stops to a 35mm one. That assumes using equal ISO speeds, requiring equal aperture ratio, in turn requiring the larger format camera to use a lens of twice the focal length with the same f-stop, typically meaning a far bigger, heavier, more expensive lens. (300/4 vs 600/4?) The bottom line from physics is that lens size (effective aperture diameter) is the most fundamental photographic speed limit.

The 2-stop argument makes sense in cases where the smaller format is limited to the same aperture ratio (e.g. f/2.8 zooms lenses) so for on thing when two stops less DOF for the larger format is not a problem, but it is irrelevant when lens size/cost or need for adequate DOF limits the larger format to a proportionately larger aperture ratio. The speed benefit is intermediate if, for example, the larger format is limited to f/4 vs f/2.8 for the smaller.
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SrMi

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It is a fallacyóor at least rather misleadingóto say that a 4/3" sensor gives up two stops to a 35mm one. That assumes using equal ISO speeds, requiring equal aperture ratio, in turn requiring the larger format camera to use a lens of twice the focal length with the same f-stop, typically meaning a far bigger, heavier, more expensive lens. (300/4 vs 600/4?) The bottom line from physics is that lens size (effective aperture diameter) is the most fundamental photographic speed limit.

The 2-stop argument makes sense in cases where the smaller format is limited to the same aperture ratio (e.g. f/2.8 zooms lenses) so for on thing when two stops less DOF for the larger format is not a problem, but it is irrelevant when lens size/cost or need for adequate DOF limits the larger format to a proportionately larger aperture ratio. The speed benefit is intermediate if, for example, the larger format is limited to f/4 vs f/2.8 for the smaller.

Olympus M1mII has considerably improved dynamic range when compared to mark 1. Looking at PhotonsToPhotos website, M1mII seems to have a very similar dynamic range as D850 if you shoot above ISO 200:

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D850,Olympus%20OM-D%20E-M1,Olympus%20OM-D%20E-M1%20Mark%20II
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BJL

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Olympus M1mII has considerably improved dynamic range when compared to mark 1. Looking at PhotonsToPhotos website, M1mII seems to have a very similar dynamic range as D850 if you shoot above ISO 200:

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D850,Olympus%20OM-D%20E-M1,Olympus%20OM-D%20E-M1%20Mark%20II
Smaller photosites do tend to have less read noise for given exposure (photon count) received, so closing the gap in the deep shadows relative to a simplistic reckoning based only on photon shot noise, and that graph looks impressive. However, I admit that I do not understand the practical significance of measures of DR at high ISO speeds. It seems that a lot of that can just be the numerous stops of highlight headroom that is almost always irrelevant in practice because no photosites will get that much light. That becauseóalmost by definitionóa high ISO exposure is greatly underexposing the sensor relative to full well capacity. I would much rather measure high ISO performance by noise levels, and where the bottom of the "photographically useful levels" is.
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armand

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1493 on: December 27, 2018, 12:11:34 am »

Good timing, just today I found myself cursing the Z7 autofocus. AF-S, both small and larger area point, set on my kids. The damn thing, while in the larger area, focused on the background and half on the background with the small focus area, to the dismay of my kids as I had to ask them to come back several times. I fail to see why Nikon doesnít favor the closest objects. It even recognized that there are 2 faces during image review. This was first generation mirroless performance. As a side note I think it would have gotten it right if I chose auto-area.
The other thing is that the focus performance decreases fast when the light gets low and you donít have much contrast to work with.

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1494 on: December 27, 2018, 03:26:12 am »

Good timing, just today I found myself cursing the Z7 autofocus. AF-S, both small and larger area point, set on my kids. The damn thing, while in the larger area, focused on the background and half on the background with the small focus area, to the dismay of my kids as I had to ask them to come back several times. I fail to see why Nikon doesnít favor the closest objects. It even recognized that there are 2 faces during image review. This was first generation mirroless performance. As a side note I think it would have gotten it right if I chose auto-area.
The other thing is that the focus performance decreases fast when the light gets low and you donít have much contrast to work with.

When the light gets low I advise using area focus, this works very well in fact.

I would agree, auto with face detect on works very well. I did some tests again yesterday in a crowd with the 300mm f4 PF and was impressed by the speed and accuracy.

The potential for great AF is clearly there, but I totally agree that there are some strange behaviors and the removal of - at last an option to - pick the closest subject is idiotic.

Cheers,
Bernard

DP

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However, I admit that I do not understand the practical significance of measures of DR at high ISO speeds.
if you have important for you details both in deep shadows and in bright lights you might want to know if you can increase the gain safely, which in general tend to help with S/N in deep shadows... that is quite practical... certainly you can bracket, try to bring extra light for shadows and employ a number of other tricks - but to know DR (engineering or some other metric of your S/N ratio choice) helps... if you are talking about really high nominal ISO values like ISO512K or ISO1024K then you have a point though...
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Ray

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Smaller photosites do tend to have less read noise for given exposure (photon count) received, so closing the gap in the deep shadows relative to a simplistic reckoning based only on photon shot noise, and that graph looks impressive. However, I admit that I do not understand the practical significance of measures of DR at high ISO speeds. It seems that a lot of that can just be the numerous stops of highlight headroom that is almost always irrelevant in practice because no photosites will get that much light. That becauseóalmost by definitionóa high ISO exposure is greatly underexposing the sensor relative to full well capacity. I would much rather measure high ISO performance by noise levels, and where the bottom of the "photographically useful levels" is.


I'm very surprised, BJL, that you don't understand the practical significance of measures of DR at high ISO speeds.

Nikon cameras tend to be ISO-invariant, which means if you shoot everything at base ISO, in RAW mode, using the appropriate shutter speed and F/stop for the scene, then the photos that are underexposed due to poor lighting, can be processed in Photoshop to look just as good as the same shot would be at a higher ISO which does not blow any highlights.

The advantage of underexposing at base ISO is that there is no risk of blowing highlights.
However, most Nikon models are not exactly ISO-invariant. There is often a slight DR advantage in raising ISO to 400, say, instead of underexposing at ISO 100. In order to understand the degree of this advantage, we  need measurements of DR at high ISO speeds.

Choosing ISO 400 or 800 instead of underexposing at base ISO, using the same shutter speed and f/stop, might result in a 0.2 EV increase in DR, which is insignificant. However, if the measurements show a 0.5 EV increase in DR, then choosing the higher ISO is significant.

With Canon cameras, there's no issue. Underexposing at base ISO instead of choosing a higher ISO, always results in significantly noisier images.
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Dan Wells

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1497 on: December 30, 2018, 02:58:52 pm »

Most Nikons seem to have a two-level analog gain - they are ISO-invariant up to some point around IS0 400-800, then they kick the gain up and are invariant again from whatever point they kick the gain up to the top ISO.

I don't know if some of the really fast cameras (D5?) might have more analog gain levels?

Where it's important to understand DR at multiple ISOs is to find those points where the gain actually varies... You'd generally want to shoot at the bottom ISO in a given gain group (assuming only the RAW matters, and you can see enough in the preview to find out if the image is in focus).

The disadvantage to shooting ISO 800 underexposed 6 stops instead of ISO 51,200 is that the preview and the JPEG will both look like the original negative to Ansel Adams' Moonrise, Hernandez, New Mexico (which looks like a black piece of film - the glorious image many of us are familiar with was achieved with something like 17 burns and 9 dodges in the darkroom).
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1498 on: January 01, 2019, 11:11:33 pm »

A more detailed view of Nikonís Z roadmap.

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/12/31/rumored-nikon-z-mirrorless-lenses-2019-release-schedule.aspx/

Seems just about perfect to me.

Judging from the quality of the first 3, the 14-30 f4 should be a landscape photographerís dream lens.

Cheers,
Bernard

Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1499 on: January 02, 2019, 07:33:04 am »

The disadvantage to shooting ISO 800 underexposed 6 stops instead of ISO 51,200 is that the preview and the JPEG will both look like the original negative to Ansel Adams' Moonrise, Hernandez, New Mexico (which looks like a black piece of film - the glorious image many of us are familiar with was achieved with something like 17 burns and 9 dodges in the darkroom).

Did you mean blank piece of film? The negative you mention was severely underexposed and very thin. The opposite of black
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