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Author Topic: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018  (Read 39545 times)

Ray

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1280 on: October 12, 2018, 03:22:44 AM »

Jim Kasson on the banding or not: https://blog.kasson.com/nikon-z6-7/nikon-z7-banding/

Good to see that Jim couldn't find any banding in 5 stop underexposures when pushed to normal exposure in LR. I've owned two cameras which produced noticeable banding in the deep shadows, the Canon 5D and the Nikon D7100. It disturbed me, and I don't want to experience that again.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1281 on: October 12, 2018, 04:24:48 AM »

Jim Kasson on the banding or not: https://blog.kasson.com/nikon-z6-7/nikon-z7-banding/

Upon examination, the only case where I saw banding wasn't banding, it was the texture of the dark object I was trying to photograph... ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

dchew

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1282 on: October 12, 2018, 06:38:25 AM »

Yes sir, thanks for the encouragement!  ;D



Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard,
The aliasing on that Kangaroo sign is horrible! Since Jim K killed any mileage out of the banding tragedy, Iím going to crop this, start a blog and see if I can get any traction.
 :P

Dave
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opgr

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1283 on: October 12, 2018, 07:05:35 AM »

Bernard,
The aliasing on that Kangaroo sign is horrible! Since Jim K killed any mileage out of the banding tragedy, Iím going to crop this, start a blog and see if I can get any traction.
 :P

Dave

Funny.

However...

The blurring of the sign with red letters and the street is a point of concern. Is that the backfocus transition for this zoom? Or is something else happening like maybe ibis?
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elliot_n

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1284 on: October 12, 2018, 07:18:27 AM »

It's the 35 f1.8 at f4.
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opgr

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1285 on: October 12, 2018, 07:28:32 AM »

It's the 35 f1.8 at f4.

Seriously??? Glad i didn't use the word "horrible" in connection with the blur...
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~ O ~

HSakols

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1286 on: October 12, 2018, 09:24:46 AM »

I placed my order for a z7 on 9/26 from B&H.  I'm wondering if it would be faster if I cancelled the B&H order and went through a smaller shop? 
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armand

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1287 on: October 12, 2018, 02:17:55 PM »

Jim Kasson on the banding or not: https://blog.kasson.com/nikon-z6-7/nikon-z7-banding/

I think this shows some banding, look on the bottom and left upper corner of the black door. This is the nef worked in LR, it looks even less obvious on the exported tiff (along with a more natural look). Keep in mind this was shot as a test, has exposure + 1.8, shadows +100, highlights -88 and clarity +21.
I tried to exported at full size with lower quality but the site gives an error.

faberryman

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1288 on: October 12, 2018, 02:42:52 PM »

Keep in mind this was shot as a test, has exposure + 1.8, shadows +100, highlights -88 and clarity +21.
So what you are saying is that the Z7 metering doesn't handle backlight situations very well.
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opgr

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1289 on: October 12, 2018, 03:03:33 PM »

I think this shows some banding, look on the bottom and left upper corner of the black door. This is the nef worked in LR, it looks even less obvious on the exported tiff (along with a more natural look). Keep in mind this was shot as a test, has exposure + 1.8, shadows +100, highlights -88 and clarity +21.
I tried to exported at full size with lower quality but the site gives an error.

Definitely something going on, but it's not quite similar to what was shown at dpr. The direction of the banding doesn't seem to follow the sensor:
1. Was this normal shutter exposure or e-shutter?
2. How much battery charge when taking the shot?
3. Did you add lens distortion correction?
4. If yes, what's with the sizeable CA?
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Ray

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1290 on: October 12, 2018, 10:45:11 PM »

I think this shows some banding, look on the bottom and left upper corner of the black door. This is the nef worked in LR, it looks even less obvious on the exported tiff (along with a more natural look). Keep in mind this was shot as a test, has exposure + 1.8, shadows +100, highlights -88 and clarity +21.
I tried to exported at full size with lower quality but the site gives an error.

I fail to see any significant banding which is distinguishable from a likely, natural, texture of the surface, especially at 100% enlargement, and after raising the shadows to a much lighter level than one would normally use in processing.

Banding is only a problem when it is obviously not the texture of the surface. To be certain it's banding, when the banding is slight, one needs to examine a completely smooth surface, such as the plastic rubbish bin in the foreground. Try underexposing a shot by 5 or 6 stops, which contains some genuinely smooth surfaces.
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armand

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1291 on: October 12, 2018, 11:42:38 PM »

So what you are saying is that the Z7 metering doesn't handle backlight situations very well.

No

Definitely something going on, but it's not quite similar to what was shown at dpr. The direction of the banding doesn't seem to follow the sensor:
1. Was this normal shutter exposure or e-shutter?
2. How much battery charge when taking the shot?
3. Did you add lens distortion correction?
4. If yes, what's with the sizeable CA?

1. normal shutter
2. practically full, less than 20 shots from full charge
3. no, unless LR did it on its own but I doubt it considering it says "profile missing"
4. came with the package, LR didn't autocorrect it and neither did I

The direction of the banding doesn't seem to follow the sensor
It kind does, I leveled the shot. See attached.


I fail to see any significant banding which is distinguishable from a likely, natural, texture of the surface, especially at 100% enlargement, and after raising the shadows to a much lighter level than one would normally use in processing.

Banding is only a problem when it is obviously not the texture of the surface. To be certain it's banding, when the banding is slight, one needs to examine a completely smooth surface, such as the plastic rubbish bin in the foreground. Try underexposing a shot by 5 or 6 stops, which contains some genuinely smooth surfaces.

New glasses maybe  ;D? There is definitely some banding in the dark areas and even a more faint one in the trash can. It's a smooth door, has no real texture. Now on what I posted it might be a little more difficult to see, I'll attach a smaller portion that's a little more obvious; look at the door.

I also attached how the initial shot looked like, no adjustment just resized.

opgr

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1292 on: October 13, 2018, 02:48:51 AM »

No

1. normal shutter
2. practically full, less than 20 shots from full charge
3. no, unless LR did it on its own but I doubt it considering it says "profile missing"
4. came with the package, LR didn't autocorrect it and neither did I

The direction of the banding doesn't seem to follow the sensor
It kind does, I leveled the shot. See attached.


New glasses maybe  ;D? There is definitely some banding in the dark areas and even a more faint one in the trash can. It's a smooth door, has no real texture. Now on what I posted it might be a little more difficult to see, I'll attach a smaller portion that's a little more obvious; look at the door.

I also attached how the initial shot looked like, no adjustment just resized.

Yup, you definitely got it.

Do you perhaps have a similar shot where if you apply the same LR correction, you do not have the banding?

What iso setting? What exposure parameters? Exp comp? And not unimportantly: what lens? FTZ adapter?

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Ray

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1293 on: October 13, 2018, 04:03:59 AM »

New glasses maybe  ;D? There is definitely some banding in the dark areas and even a more faint one in the trash can. It's a smooth door, has no real texture. Now on what I posted it might be a little more difficult to see, I'll attach a smaller portion that's a little more obvious; look at the door.

I also attached how the initial shot looked like, no adjustment just resized.

It's not an issue because the surface you've shown has got streaks all over the place. What's probably more disturbing, at that high degree of magnification, is the chromatic aberrations. A click on the 'reduce noise' tag in Photoshop, fixes that.

Attached is your image after applying color noise reduction. Whilst there does appears to be some degree of slight banding, it's still credible (from  the viewers' perspective rather than the anally retentive perspective) that the timber itself, perhaps as a result of degraded paint, contains the streaks.

You'll have to show me the banding on a completely smooth surface, or an obviously naturally smooth surface, before I'm convinced there's a problem.


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Ray

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1294 on: October 13, 2018, 04:22:09 AM »

Here's an example of some obvious banding which is unacceptable. The shot was taken with my ISO-less D7100. I underexposed 4 stops, using ISO 200 instead of ISO 3200.
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jeremyrh

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1295 on: October 13, 2018, 05:11:23 AM »

Another weekend, another day toting the Z7 as my "walkaround" camera, this time in Beijing, which frustratingly means I can't read Jim Kasson's blog as it's apparently blocked by the Google filter.

Anyway, still very pleased with the new package. 
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armand

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1296 on: October 13, 2018, 09:57:38 AM »

It's not an issue because the surface you've shown has got streaks all over the place. What's probably more disturbing, at that high degree of magnification, is the chromatic aberrations. A click on the 'reduce noise' tag in Photoshop, fixes that.

Attached is your image after applying color noise reduction. Whilst there does appears to be some degree of slight banding, it's still credible (from  the viewers' perspective rather than the anally retentive perspective) that the timber itself, perhaps as a result of degraded paint, contains the streaks.

You'll have to show me the banding on a completely smooth surface, or an obviously naturally smooth surface, before I'm convinced there's a problem.

It's a black metal door, has no structure per se. There are no significant streaks in it, definitely not repeating horizontal ones. The pattern that you showed is definitely more obvious but this one has it too, even in your "corrected" one.

Yup, you definitely got it.

Do you perhaps have a similar shot where if you apply the same LR correction, you do not have the banding?

What iso setting? What exposure parameters? Exp comp? And not unimportantly: what lens? FTZ adapter?



No similar shot yet, I could easily try one but I want to see first how the focus shift works, this banding is not such a big issue yet.
ISO64, 24-70 F4 S, F4 and 1/20, no exposure compensation.
I'll share for few days the raw, do with it whatever you please.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zvyht22r3n1noug/DSC_0033.NEF?dl=0

armand

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1297 on: October 13, 2018, 11:38:41 PM »

Random.


1.The tilt screen is nice but I have very much preferred one similar to the Fuji X-T2 (or Pentax K1) for when shooting portrait.

2. I'm using Adobe color right now as a profile until Z7 is fully supported and I noticed this profile changes much more than color. It has already some modifications in contrast and saturation, and in sharpness and noise reduction. It varies the amount and the radius for the sharpness and it's using values much higher than what I would use for noise control. Maybe that's old news to those who used them but I just figured this out.

3. How do you use the face focus? I have set it to ON but I fail to see it getting activated. I'm probably missing something.

4. I have to do some testing but even with the IBIS my guess is that if you shoot handheld you gain significantly less resolution than you would expect compared to a lower resolution camera. Even compared to a higher density/ smaller sensor, such as a newer generation Fuji (it might be because I can hold the Fuji the steadiest, not sure why).

5. Focus shift - I think the steps are huge, even if you choose low values. It really takes into account the entire DOF and starts where the prior one ends. At F11 and 24-50mm it only needs ~ 3 shots to have everything in focus up to 100-150 m or so. More testing to done. It does stop I think at infinity but I was shooting in the forest and the second half of the shot in a series was totally oof. I actually like it this way, I prefer fewer shots.

armand

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1298 on: October 14, 2018, 12:00:38 AM »

Today

armand

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1299 on: October 14, 2018, 12:25:22 AM »

I figured the face detection thing. It has to be in auto area. I was used to Oly and Fuji where you can be in any autofocus mode and if you select face detection it will override it if it detects a face.


A site with settings: https://www.wimarys.com/nikon-z7-setup-guide-with-tips-and-tricks/
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