Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018

[shadowblade]

Good. Well done you. You made the perfect decision. For you. Now - do us all a favour and dont tell us about it any more, eh?

No.

Give me one use case scenario - apart from the size-focused hobbyist who doesn't care about AF and can live with a single slow lens - where the Z7 will serve you better as a primary camera than either a D850 or an A7r3.

At best, its an accessory camera for Nikon SLR users - a fun toy for situations where you don't need the full capabilities of the SLR, or for shooting video. It can't replace an SLR for all the tasks expected of an SLR - if you were using the SLR for its AF capability or dual slots, you're still going to need to keep it. If you weren't using these capabilities, you probably didn't need the SLR in the first place and were mainly using it for lack of other full-frame options. But that only represents a subset of SLR users and in no way makes the Z7 a replacement for the D850 - it has some of the D850's capabilities and may be sufficient for some users, but is unable to take the D850's place within Nikon's lineup and fill the same roles for the same photographers.

[BernardLanguillier]

...but is unable to take the D850's place within Nikon's lineup and fill the same roles for the same photographers.

Would you mind confirming whether you also try to convince the people around you that their choice of car is wrong, their choice of TV is wrong, perhaps their choice of hustand/wife is wrong? 

Cheers,
Bernard

[chez]

No.

Give me one use case scenario - apart from the size-focused hobbyist who doesn't care about AF and can live with a single slow lens - where the Z7 will serve you better as a primary camera than either a D850 or an A7r3.

At best, its an accessory camera for Nikon SLR users - a fun toy for situations where you don't need the full capabilities of the SLR, or for shooting video. It can't replace an SLR for all the tasks expected of an SLR - if you were using the SLR for its AF capability or dual slots, you're still going to need to keep it. If you weren't using these capabilities, you probably didn't need the SLR in the first place and were mainly using it for lack of other full-frame options. But that only represents a subset of SLR users and in no way makes the Z7 a replacement for the D850 - it has some of the D850's capabilities and may be sufficient for some users, but is unable to take the D850's place within Nikon's lineup and fill the same roles for the same photographers.

One quick question. Why does the Z7 need to replace the 850? I currently have 5 different camera systems including medium and large format film, and none can replace the other. If you are looking for 1 camera that does it all the best....well keep looking.

[BJL]

Give me one use case scenario - apart from the size-focused hobbyist who doesn't care about AF ...

There is a huge gap between "doesn't put high priority on having industry-leading AF performance" and "doesn't care about AF", especially with cameras clearly oriented to high detail more than high speed action.

... and can live with a single slow lens ...

I also recommend dropping this assumption that existing Nikon F-mount (or Canon EF-mount for R bodies) are of little or no value, so that the new systems can be evaluated solely on the basis of their initial native lens systems.  (Whatever happened to all the touting of the advantage of being able to use Canon lenses on Sony E-mount bodies?)  And when the adaptor-mounted lenses (and the adaptor) are from the same maker as the camera, some extra information sharing has the potential to make those adapted lenses work better than ones from another maker (e.g. Canon) that has no interest in helping the camera maker (e.g. Sony) get the best out of those lenses.

[shadowblade]

Shadowblade,

I don't want to sound alarming, but I think I may be detecting in you some early sign a slight Sony fanboyism, possibly aggravated by an irrational hatred with anything with a Nikon logo on it? 

One point you may want to think about... when one provides you with a list of points, they may be connected by an "AND", not by an "OR". This should IMHO make you consider to re-assess the relevance of providing isolated answers to each point but instead think of the situation holistically?

I can point you to the remarkable books of Ken Wilber in case you are interested in the value of an holistic approach btw. Because I have no shame to admit that I am a Ken Wilber fanboy.

And, as a final comment, I don't think I ever dared to provide you with advice on what you should be doing in terms of camera choice. I think it would be stupid to do so.

Cheers,
Bernard

Personally, I prefer the Canon SLR system in terms of functionality. Just that they fell behind in the sensor game, having not released a sensor with both high resolution and good low-ISO performance, hence the move to Sony.

If that is an 'AND' list, it represents an extremely narrow use-case scenario and doesn't represent a large user base. If it's an 'OR' list, each individual point is equally or better served by another existing camera.

I'm not advising anyone on individual camera choice. I speak in terms of general capabilities only - in this case, specifically, its ability to replace an SLR as the primary/only camera in a kit, or to replace the D850 in Nikon's camera lineup. Obviously, there are use case scenarios on the individual level for just about anything. In this case, those scenarios just happen to be much narrower than for either the D850 or A7r3.

[shadowblade]

Would you mind confirming whether you also try to convince the people around you that their choice of car is wrong, their choice of TV is wrong, perhaps their choice of hustand/wife is wrong? 

Cheers,
Bernard

See above. I speak in general terms only. You can use whatever you want. Get a lens cap and drill a pinhole in it if you want small size over everything else.

Also, what happened to Nikon having 'class leading' AF and special algorithms that translate to mirrorless? By all accounts, the Nikon bodies have the worst AF out of the big three.

[shadowblade]

One quick question. Why does the Z7 need to replace the 850? I currently have 5 different camera systems including medium and large format film, and none can replace the other. If you are looking for 1 camera that does it all the best....well keep looking.

If the D850 can do almost everything the Z7 can, and more, what's the point of the Z7, apart from being small? If you're going to share lenses between the two systems, it's no longer even small. If you're not going to share lenses, why not the higher-performing A7r3 over the Z7?

It's not like the A7r vs Canon scenario a few years ago, when the Sony offered a >50% increase in megapixels and much better base ISO image quality compared to the 5D3. In this case, there is very little in still photography that the Z7 does better than the D850, and plenty that the D850 does much better at.

[gkroeger]

Good. Well done you. You made the perfect decision. For you. Now - do us all a favour and dont tell us about it any more, eh?

Ditto.  You (shadowblade) don't like the Z7 (although you haven't used one), but this thread is about Nikon's mirrorless system and some of us are interested and would like the discussion to focus on that system and not every alternative system you prefer.

[chez]

If the D850 can do almost everything the Z7 can, and more, what's the point of the Z7, apart from being small? If you're going to share lenses between the two systems, it's no longer even small. If you're not going to share lenses, why not the higher-performing A7r3 over the Z7?

It's not like the A7r vs Canon scenario a few years ago, when the Sony offered a >50% increase in megapixels and much better base ISO image quality compared to the 5D3. In this case, there is very little in still photography that the Z7 does better than the D850, and plenty that the D850 does much better at.

Well one huge benefit of mirrorless for me is smaller size and weight. I'd never take the 850 on a month long trip through SEA...but the Z7....yeh man.

If that is not important for you...then just use the big DSLR's...what's your beef?

[Martin Kristiansen]

I have been shooting mirrorless exclusively for two years, FF and APSC, four different bodies. I have a few reservations about the information regarding the new Nikon mirrorless performance. Particularly regarding the comparisons with the 850.

First off what lenses are used for the comparisons. If it’s the same lens then that skews the results in favor of whatever camera the lens is native to. If it’s native lenses then we are perhaps comparing lens focus performance rather than camera focus performance. Do the lenses at least have the same maximum apertures?

Second how is the mirrorless set up. Most recent converts to mirrorless fall in love with the wsyiwyg viewfinder setting for exposure. This severely hobbles the auto focus performance unless maximum aperture is selected. All the mirrorless shooters I know end up using this feature only when auto focus performance is unimportant.

Nikon know how to make cameras and auto focus systems. Call me skeptical about these reviews that are critical of Nikon mirrorless performance in this regard. If it’s just based on a “feeling” the reviewer has then it’s not worth much imho.

[jeremyrh]

No.

Your choice of course. But i find your aggressive tone and endless belittling of others tiresome, so I'll be using the excellent "block" feature of the forum  As Stalin said - everyone has the right to be stupid, but some abuse that right.

[shadowblade]

Your choice of course. But i find your aggressive tone and endless belittling of others tiresome, so I'll be using the excellent "block" feature of the forum  As Stalin said - everyone has the right to be stupid, but some abuse that right.

Please point out one single instance of a personal attack.

An attack on an argument is not the same as a personal attack.

As far as I've seen, you (and other proponents of the Z7) have barely even attempted to defend the Z7 on its merits or to point out any advantages it has over other systems, with the sole exception of size, and have instead chosen to ignore any shortcomings of the system while attacking the credibility, rather than the arguments, of its detractors.

This sudden fixation on small size - when, for years, the very same users have focused on the image quality of the D800, D810 and D850, and the AF performance of the D4 and D5 - suggests a cart-before-the-horse situation, where the objective is to find something the system is good at and promote that as why it's the new, perfect system, rather than having any single photographic objective and pointing out logically why the new system (or any other system) is better/worse for that application than any other potential competitor. It creates an impression of blind product/brand worship rather than any logical analysis of its advantages and shortcomings. And the size argument is so 2010. Back then, size was the only selling point that mirrorless could claim. Now, with mirrorless cameras being an established product, for a product to only be able to claim small size as their main advantage over another system (e.g. Nikon SLR) that can otherwise do the same job as well (in some applications) or better (in others) is a very poor showing indeed.  A new mirrorless camera should be able to claim some sort of performance advantage for still photography over an older SLR, other than just being smaller and lighter. The way it looks, though, the Z7 is just a cut-down D850 with less size, less weight, less performance and a jacked-up price tag.

[BernardLanguillier]

Shadowblade,

This information has been proposed tens of time in this thread. It is really up to you to try to comprehend it or not.

But I think none of us are wealthy enough to buy a camera that would have no value for us just because we are Nikon fanboys.

Hopefully you can do a bit of thinking on this?

Cheers,
Bernard

[shadowblade]

Shadowblade,

This information has been proposed tens of time in this thread. It is really up to you to try to comprehend it or not.

But I think none of us are wealthy enough to buy a camera that would have no value for us just because we are Nikon fanboys.

Hopefully you can do a bit of thinking on this?

Cheers,
Bernard

So explain why, for so many years, Sony and other mirrorless cameras were too small to use, while the D810's large size was not an issue and the AF performance of Nikon's SLRs was an ultimate trump card that couldn't be traded away, but now, when Nikon releases an equally-small camera that lacks the performance (AF and otherwise) of the SLRs, small size is suddenly paramount, while AF and other aspects of performance no longer matter so much? There's no consistent logic behind the argument, other than the argument of the day being consistently behind the strengths of Nikon's latest product.

Don't get me wrong - small size is a good thing, all else being equal. But the Z7 is not the equal of the D850, and I'd never trade performance characteristics for small size alone. If it's trading one performance factor for another (e.g. AF on Canon SLRs vs a much better sensor on the first-generation A7r) it's a different matter entirely.

[BernardLanguillier]

Don't get me wrong - small size is a good thing, all else being equal. But the Z7 is not the equal of the D850, and I'd never trade performance characteristics for small size alone. If it's trading one performance factor for another (e.g. AF on Canon SLRs vs a much better sensor on the first-generation A7r) it's a different matter entirely.

I sometimes wonder if you actually take photographs... if you did the answers to these questions should be pretty obvious.

I'll just give you one hint: from a specification point of view, the Z7 is overall superior to the D850 for landscape work, especially for existing F mount users
And another one: photographers photograph different types of subjects.

Cheers,
Bernard

[kers]

Nikon and Canon will be facing tremendous competition.
This photokina has brought more new cameras and lenses in the FF and MF sector than ever.
Even Zeiss and Zenit enter the competition.
The Zeiss camera is the most interesting and daring one- : android- built in 512Gb of storage- no cards- built in Lightroom, wifi , bluetooth & usb-c connectivity- a homemade lens and sensor
I am sure that is the way more cameras will go ; kudos to Zeiss.

[jeremyrh]

The Zeiss camera is the most interesting and daring one- : android- built in 512Gb of storage- no cards- built in Lightroom, wifi , bluetooth & usb-c connectivity- a homemade lens and sensor
I am sure that is the way more cameras will go ; kudos to Zeiss.

Yes that is pretty cool. If only you could make phone calls on it :-)

[armand]

I wonder how can you edit your photos on that small screen and if the screen is calibrated. I think it's waste of resources. The setup it's just not convenient for editing on the go.

If they really wanted something they could have approached the WD SSD way, make the shots available wireless for editing on an iPad, that could work if you have the battery for it.

[Riverman]

If one orders a Z7 from BH Photo today, will they receive it before the year has ended?  The problem is that for many of us these products aren't really available. Look at the D850. 

[jeremyrh]

If one orders a Z7 from BH Photo today, will they receive it before the year has ended?  The problem is that for many of us these products aren't really available. Look at the D850.

I imagine so. The first batch are now being distributed here (London) and the shops seem to have received good supplies.