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Author Topic: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018  (Read 160271 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1020 on: September 23, 2018, 08:59:00 am »

I don't think that higher priced lenses will do anything to stop lemons leaving the end if the line. It seems to me that it is industry standard now to expect the customer to be the final inspection department. If they return the rotten fruit, cool; if not, then even better. Do all buyers even know what they should be getting from their glass?

Maybe, but although competitors have looked real real hard there have been next to zero reports of faulty D850 or recent high end Nikon lenses.

Having first hand knowledge about the hate of over-commitment of Nikon engineers, I believe there is more than marketing talk to their claims about QC for S line lenses.

The good news being that lens rental will soon have actual measurements to tell us if Nikon is talking BS or not. And since we all know that these results will be published and scrutenized, it would be incredibly foolish on Nikon’s part to make such claims if they were not true.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 23, 2018, 09:10:47 am by BernardLanguillier »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1022 on: September 26, 2018, 11:17:06 pm »

https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/nikons-future-z-system-plans-revealed

Marketing oriented of course, but some pretty interesting comments.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 11:38:55 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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shadowblade

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1023 on: September 27, 2018, 01:52:03 am »

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/61650197

Cheers,
Bernard

To me, this is the single most telling line in the review:

Quote
If so, and explicit in relation to action, sports, BIF, insects in flight and wildlife photography, Z serie' AF has still to be improved a lot to become a D850 competitor or replacement.

And, unlike the pre-production reviews, this one appears to come from a production model.

AF capability vis-a-vis SLR was always going to be the big distinguishing feature among the new mirrorless bodies. Looks like we'll need to wait for the next generation for a mirrorless D850 (or D850 successor, as it would be by that time). Or, if 30MP works for you, go for the EOS R - Canon's dual-pixel AF looks much more promising (although I'd expect a mirrorless, 50-70MP successor to the 5Ds sooner rather than later - the 5Ds is getting rather old and was never great to begin with - so it may be worth waiting for that). And we already know that the A7III/A7r3/A9 can handle fast action just fine, and that Sony's expanding its AI-based AF algorithms to include eye AF on animals, among other things (I hope this includes birds, snakes, leopards and elephants too, not just domestic cats and dogs); according to Sony's wording, this may even be a firmware update, not just a hardware one for future cameras.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1024 on: September 27, 2018, 02:16:05 am »

To me, this is the single most telling line in the review:

And, unlike the pre-production reviews, this one appears to come from a production model.

AF capability vis-a-vis SLR was always going to be the big distinguishing feature among the new mirrorless bodies. Looks like we'll need to wait for the next generation for a mirrorless D850 (or D850 successor, as it would be by that time). Or, if 30MP works for you, go for the EOS R - Canon's dual-pixel AF looks much more promising (although I'd expect a mirrorless, 50-70MP successor to the 5Ds sooner rather than later - the 5Ds is getting rather old and was never great to begin with - so it may be worth waiting for that). And we already know that the A7III/A7r3/A9 can handle fast action just fine, and that Sony's expanding its AI-based AF algorithms to include eye AF on animals, among other things (I hope this includes birds, snakes, leopards and elephants too, not just domestic cats and dogs); according to Sony's wording, this may even be a firmware update, not just a hardware one for future cameras.

Why am I not surprised to see you single out one slightly negative line among 100 positives ones?  ;D

Btw, I have seen positive comments about the Canon R video AF, but haven't heard any raving reviews about the AF for native lenses or converted ones on moving subjects for still photography. It is anybody's guess as to whether it is better than the Z AF.

Cheers,
Bernard

shadowblade

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1025 on: September 27, 2018, 09:08:04 am »

Why am I not surprised to see you single out one slightly negative line among 100 positives ones?  ;D

Because all the positive comments are all either completely subjective (e.g. ergonomics) or are what you'd simply expect any competent camera to be able to do in 2018 (i.e. you'd be annoyed if it didn't have it). As in, they simply say that the camera meets the baseline (D850/A7r3/A7III) level of performance, not that it rises above and beyond what other systems can already do. It can take 420 shots without running out of battery? Guess what - it's supposed to. Decent sensor? You'd be whinging if it didn't meet the same standard as the SLRs. Has IBIS? So does every other mirrorless system other than Canon.

In short, all the 'positive' comments aren't really 'positive', in the sense that they aren't things in which the camera stands head-and-shoulders above its rivals. They simply mention areas in which the new camera meets the expected baseline, as defined by current SLR and mirrorless competitors.

Poor AF isn't 'slightly' negative. It means that the camera can't do the same job as the D850 can, and, therefore, can't replace an SLR in the same roles. Which may be fine if your photography doesn't require the full capabilities of a modern SLR (say, if you're a portrait, product or architecture photographer) but it means. Other reviews compared its AF to the A7r2 - fine if your subject isn't moving, but inadequate for a go-everywhere, do-everything camera. There are reasons Sony wasn't a real competitor to Canon/Nikon outside of a few select applications (video, the non-action enthusiast market and Canon shooters needing better sensors) until 2017, although it was moving in the right direction - lack of native lenses, low battery life, single card slots and slow AF compared to SLRs. Most of these are problems Nikon's mirrorless system has right now. They'll probably have it right for the next generation, but that's 2-3 years away. If you shoot action as well as non-action subjects, you're still going to need the SLR, and since that SLR can do almost everything the mirrorless camera can, the mirrorless body becomes somewhat superfluous.

Quote
Btw, I have seen positive comments about the Canon R video AF, but haven't heard any raving reviews about the AF for native lenses or converted ones on moving subjects for still photography. It is anybody's guess as to whether it is better than the Z AF.

In a mirrorless camera, continuous AF is the same thing as video AF - it's not like an SLR, where video AF is sensor-only and continuous AF still uses the off-sensor AF system. Single-shot AF barely matters - if you're using it, it means that your subject isn't moving, you have time to focus and you can get a perfectly accurate result with manual focus.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1026 on: September 27, 2018, 09:29:36 am »

In a mirrorless camera, continuous AF is the same thing as video AF - it's not like an SLR, where video AF is sensor-only and continuous AF still uses the off-sensor AF system.

Apologies, but although the means of focusing are the same, the needs couldn't differ more.

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1027 on: September 27, 2018, 09:30:49 am »

Poor AF isn't 'slightly' negative.

The review doesn't speak at all about poor AF. I speaks about good overall AF performance but not quite up to the very best on the market for sports.

Cheers,
Bernard

shadowblade

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1028 on: September 27, 2018, 09:41:08 am »

Apologies, but although the means of focusing are the same, the needs couldn't differ more.

Cheers,
Bernard

It's done using exactly the same system, using exactly the same methods. It's not rocket science for the firmware to tell it to go as quickly as possible for stills, and slowly and smoothly for video. And the sensitivity setting is equally applicable to both. Assuming the firmware writers aren't complete idiots, a camera that can do one well has the hardware required to do the other equally well.

Anyway, you can pick up a Canon mirrorless crop camera now and see exactly how well it functions for yourself. It's pretty fast.
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shadowblade

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1029 on: September 27, 2018, 09:49:55 am »

The review doesn't speak at all about poor AF. I speaks about good overall AF performance but not quite up to the very best on the market for sports.

Cheers,
Bernard

It doesn't match the D850 - in fact, it makes it clear that it doesn't come anywhere close to matching the D850.

Quote
AF has still to be improved a lot to become a D850 competitor or replacement.

That means that it also doesn't come anywhere close to matching the A7r3, A7III or 5D4.

Probably fine for a general walk-around camera, but not up to standard for situations where you're tracking fast action, or just need to nail a shot first time, with minimal delay.

A modern SLR can do these things. The Z7 can't.

For an SLR replacement, the Z7 is a poor substitute. It may be a fun toy to tinker with, but, if you shoot action at all, or if you perform any kind of shooting where you can't afford to lose your photos to memory card failure, you're still reliant on an SLR as your main camera.
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dreed

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1030 on: September 27, 2018, 10:19:27 am »

If Nikon has a mirrorless version of the D5 with D5 performance coming soon then I can see that some people will need to eat a lot of humble pie.

Sony is stealing the show anywhere that decides they don't want to put up with shutter slap noise.
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jeremyrh

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1031 on: September 27, 2018, 11:02:17 am »


Probably fine for a general walk-around camera

Or for a landscape photographer - strange concept for "Luminous Landscape" !!
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faberryman

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1032 on: September 27, 2018, 11:12:24 am »

In short, all the 'positive' comments aren't really 'positive', in the sense that they aren't things in which the camera stands head-and-shoulders above its rivals. They simply mention areas in which the new camera meets the expected baseline, as defined by current SLR and mirrorless competitors.
This was my general takeaway. There are two comparisons to be made. The first against the Nikon D850, and in the case of Canon, the 5DIV, and the second against the Sony A7RIII. In both cases, the new offerings come up short, and given the dearth of native lens offeringss, while these may be seen as good first steps, there is no hurry to adopt, and you might as well wait for the next iterations (hopefully they will have caught up by then) and a decent selection of native lenses are available. Or if you must choose now, go with the Sony. Unless you just have to have a Nikon/Canon, image making be damned.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 12:10:48 pm by faberryman »
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Chairman Bill

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1033 on: September 27, 2018, 11:36:21 am »

As someone who shoots landscapes and portraits, I'm now looking with interest at the new Fujifilm GFX 50R. Seems to be priced at about the same as a Nikon Z7. The issue of lenses matters and I'm quite invested in Nikon, but otherwise ...

gkroeger

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1034 on: September 27, 2018, 12:43:04 pm »

Horses for courses... not everyone shoots action and sports.  I am interesting in landscape and travel, and so for me, meeting the current DSLR standard means the Z7 is a better choice for the future promises of lenses and for the reduced weight and bulk. I don't recall Nikon suggesting that the D7 is a sports or action camera. In fact they constantly remind that they are not leaving the DSLR market.

Glenn
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1035 on: September 27, 2018, 04:01:21 pm »

This was my general takeaway. There are two comparisons to be made. The first against the Nikon D850, and in the case of Canon, the 5DIV, and the second against the Sony A7RIII. In both cases, the new offerings come up short, and given the dearth of native lens offeringss, while these may be seen as good first steps, there is no hurry to adopt, and you might as well wait for the next iterations (hopefully they will have caught up by then) and a decent selection of native lenses are available. Or if you must choose now, go with the Sony. Unless you just have to have a Nikon/Canon, image making be damned.

Or...
- you already have F mount lenses
- you need a rugged camera because you sail, shoot often in the rain, face situations where heavy condensation can occur,...
- you value very high quality lenses that are compact on a compact body
- you prefer a better EVF than the very decent a7rIII one
- ...

While remembering that, although a D5 like AF would be better, you remember that you shot successful action images with a D750 and 400mm f2.8 not that long ago and take a realistic position about the AF of the Z7.

In other words you look objectively at the value being delivered.

Cheers,
Bernard

shadowblade

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1036 on: September 27, 2018, 04:57:50 pm »

Or...
- you already have F mount lenses

Sounds like a great reason to keep shooting SLR for another generation, until the Nikon/Canon systems mature more. You get two slots, better AF and longer battery life, and, if you're going to keep using your old lenses anyway, you're hardly saving on weight and size.

Quote
- you need a rugged camera because you sail, shoot often in the rain, face situations where heavy condensation can occur,...

I've shot the A7r2 in sandstorms, on the rim of active volcanoes, in polar conditions and in tropical rainstorms. It never died. The A7r3 and A9 are even better sealed.

That one test where someone put it under a shower isn't particularly indicative of anything. You're not meant to put these cameras under a shower without protection. It's like asking whether an A7r3, 5D4 or D850 makes a better hammer to pound in tent pegs.

Or, you know, keep shooting that D850. It's built like a tank and works well with your existing lenses.

Quote
- you value very high quality lenses that are compact on a compact body

Of which Nikon has announced exactly one.

Then there's the entire Batis lineup. And the new Sony 24/1.4.

Quote
- you prefer a better EVF than the very decent a7rIII one
- ...

So you'd give up a second card slot, a much larger lens lineup and a whole generation of AF performance... all for an EVF that one user said was slightly better and another said was about the same. Given that the two viewfinders have the same resolution, the fact that Sony makes so many EVFs and display panels and that Nikon's sensors are made by Sony, there's every chance that it's actually exactly the same EVF, with a different fitting/EVF optics over the top.

And we know Sony has a >5MP EVF ready, as well as the multilayer sensor technology (as demonstrated in the A9) to make them function even better than they do in the current generation. Remember, the Z7 is a year newer than the A7r3, and one-and-a-half years newer than the A9. It's supposed to be better. But, evidently, it does not match up.

Quote
In other words you look objectively at the value being delivered.

That's exactly what I did. And the fact is, apart from the sole case of a non-action-shooting, amateur user who puts a huge premium on size and weight (almost to the exclusion of everything else) and who's happy walking around with a single, slow 24-70mm lens, it doesn't deliver anything that isn't delivered better by either a D850 or an A7r3.
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jeremyrh

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1037 on: September 27, 2018, 05:23:37 pm »

That's exactly what I did. And the fact is, apart from the sole case of a non-action-shooting, amateur user who puts a huge premium on size and weight (almost to the exclusion of everything else) and who's happy walking around with a single, slow 24-70mm lens, it doesn't deliver anything that isn't delivered better by either a D850 or an A7r3.

Good. Well done you. You made the perfect decision. For you. Now - do us all a favour and dont tell us about it any more, eh?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1038 on: September 27, 2018, 06:17:28 pm »

That's exactly what I did. And the fact is, apart from the sole case of a non-action-shooting, amateur user who puts a huge premium on size and weight (almost to the exclusion of everything else) and who's happy walking around with a single, slow 24-70mm lens, it doesn't deliver anything that isn't delivered better by either a D850 or an A7r3.

Shadowblade,

I don't want to sound alarming, but I think I may be detecting in you some early sign a slight Sony fanboyism, possibly aggravated by an irrational hatred with anything with a Nikon logo on it?  ;D

One point you may want to think about... when one provides you with a list of points, they may be connected by an "AND", not by an "OR". This should IMHO make you consider to re-assess the relevance of providing isolated answers to each point but instead think of the situation holistically?

I can point you to the remarkable books of Ken Wilber in case you are interested in the value of an holistic approach btw. Because I have no shame to admit that I am a Ken Wilber fanboy. ;)

And, as a final comment, I don't think I ever dared to provide you with advice on what you should be doing in terms of camera choice. I think it would be stupid to do so.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 06:46:50 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #1039 on: September 27, 2018, 07:16:39 pm »

As someone who shoots landscapes and portraits, I'm now looking with interest at the new Fujifilm GFX 50R. Seems to be priced at about the same as a Nikon Z7. The issue of lenses matters and I'm quite invested in Nikon, but otherwise ...

Bill,

There is a lot to like about the GFX system, starting with excellent lenses, but honestly I think that the value of the 50mp version is quite limited compared to an a7rIII, D850, Z7. There is quite a price difference, lenses are larger and you don't gain much in terms of image quality... at least probably not enough to compensate for what you lose, starting with AF performance.

On the other hand I find the GFX100 to be a game changer because you won't need anymore to sacrifice too much AF performance or stabilization to benefit from a still only slightly larger but now significantly higher res sensor.

If hasselblad doesn't announce anything interesting by spring 2019, I may just decided to sell my H system and go the Fuji route for landscape.

Just my 2 cent obviously.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 07:19:47 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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