Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018

[BernardLanguillier]

What data do you have to make you not believe this?

I did consult with a fortune teller from Ouganda whose brother in law works at CIPA.

Cheers,
Bernard

[chez]

I did consult with a fortune teller from Ouganda whose brother in law works at CIPA.

Cheers,
Bernard

Yep thought so...digging deep to retrieve something huh?

[BernardLanguillier]

Yep thought so...digging deep to retrieve something huh?

Not being able to convince you that I am right would be a serious let down...

On the other hand, do you have data to prove me wrong?

Cheers,
Bernard

[chez]

Not being able to convince you that I am right would be a serious let down...

On the other hand, do you have data to prove me wrong?

Cheers,
Bernard

Well what I claimed came right from Nikon's financial presentations...what you claimed came from your...

[hubell]

That's in fact not an argument against a larger sensor, because Nikon has never prevented the usage of APS-C lenses on FF bodies.

But I don't think the sensor will be larger than 24x36.

Cheers,
Bernard

I suppose you are right that THIS camera will be FF, but I am not at all sure what to make of Nikon’s explicit statement in the latest video teaser that the new camera is the “Gateway to a New Dimension.” That in combination with the almost psychedelic depiction of the mount on the new camera. I mean if it’s just another regular old FF 24/36 sensor, why bother yelling about a new “dimension” and showcasing a pulsing lens mount?

[BernardLanguillier]

I suppose you are right that THIS camera will be FF, but I am not at all sure what to make of Nikon’s explicit statement in the latest video teaser that the new camera is the “Gateway to a New Dimension.” That in combination with the almost psychedelic depiction of the mount on the new camera. I mean if it’s just another regular old FF 24/36 sensor, why bother yelling about a new “dimension” and showcasing a pulsing lens mount?

My guess is that this is about the mount itself that is larger than F mount.

Now, various Sony users have invested a lot of thread time to demonstrate that the E mount is large enough and it could be argued that the F mount has not prevented Nikon from releasing amazing lenses, yet it seems that Nikon thinks that designing their new system around a larger mount has enough advantages that they are centering their whole communication around this aspect.

So I understand your questioning. Either they don't know what they are doing, or we may know more on Aug-23rd.

If there is indeed a larger sensor somewhere down the road that is a key reason for the larger mount, then I would expect Nikon to mention this very clearly during the actual launch.

Cheers,
Bernard

[BernardLanguillier]

Well what I claimed came right from Nikon's financial presentations...what you claimed came from your...

Could you please share the link to the page where Nikon claims that they have declining market share compared to Canon in the high end FF body segment?

Thanks.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Paulo Bizarro]

My guess is that this is about the mount itself that is larger than F mount.

Now, various Sony users have invested a lot of thread time to demonstrate that the E mount is large enough and it could be argued that the F mount has not prevented Nikon from releasing amazing lenses, yet it seems that Nikon thinks that designing their new system around a larger mount has enough advantages that they are centering their whole communication around this aspect.

So I understand your questioning. Either they don't know what they are doing, or we may know more on Aug-23rd.

If there is indeed a larger sensor somewhere down the road that is a key reason for the larger mount, then I would expect Nikon to mention this very clearly during the actual launch.

Cheers,
Bernard

What I am expecting is the larger than previous mount (Z > F) will facilitate the design and use of 0.95 lenses. I remember some rumours around that, not sure from where, there is so much stuff going around... I suppose that will qualify as a "new dimension"? Or it could simply be that this "new dimension" is just a qualification of the new Z mount being larger than the F mount?

[Martin Kristiansen]

I suppose you are right that THIS camera will be FF, but I am not at all sure what to make of Nikon’s explicit statement in the latest video teaser that the new camera is the “Gateway to a New Dimension.” That in combination with the almost psychedelic depiction of the mount on the new camera. I mean if it’s just another regular old FF 24/36 sensor, why bother yelling about a new “dimension” and showcasing a pulsing lens mount?

Let’s all get a grip here. It’s hyperbole isn’t it. Or marketing if you prefer. “A gateway to a New Dimention” as an explicit statement seems highly unlikely to be based on any kind of truth unless Nikon has in fact managed to cram a little black hole into that magnificent new lens mount.  Call me sceptical but I think that’s unlikely. Let’s assume it’s not in fact a gateway to another dimension and that statement is false. Let’s assume Nikon is just trying to generate excitement for something other than a wormhole. Could be just a nice new mirrorless camera. I bet that’s what it is.

[BernardLanguillier]

Let’s all get a grip here. It’s hyperbole isn’t it. Or marketing if you prefer. “A gateway to a New Dimention” as an explicit statement seems highly unlikely to be based on any kind of truth unless Nikon has in fact managed to cram a little black hole into that magnificent new lens mount.  Call me sceptical but I think that’s unlikely. Let’s assume it’s not in fact a gateway to another dimension and that statement is false. Let’s assume Nikon is just trying to generate excitement for something other than a wormhole. Could be just a nice new mirrorless camera. I bet that’s what it is.

There are of course theories claiming that our conscious experience is nothing but an instance of our being living in a local time frame while being connected to other instances of the same being living their own experiences elsewhere in space and time.

Nikon may have discovered a way to connect owners of their mirrorless body with their being across time and space.

I wonder whether Sony users would agree that this would be a revolution? Of does the a7 already do this?

Cheers,
Bernard

[Rob C]

Let’s all get a grip here. It’s hyperbole isn’t it. Or marketing if you prefer. “A gateway to a New Dimention” as an explicit statement seems highly unlikely to be based on any kind of truth unless Nikon has in fact managed to cram a little black hole into that magnificent new lens mount.  Call me sceptical but I think that’s unlikely. Let’s assume it’s not in fact a gateway to another dimension and that statement is false. Let’s assume Nikon is just trying to generate excitement for something other than a wormhole. Could be just a nice new mirrorless camera. I bet that’s what it is.

I believe you are absolutely right: a "new dimension"  is the same crap as car makers offer you - usually on the trip to and from work. Nothing changes, only the way to sell the same old same old; the new dimension, if and when you get into it, usually means you just got more poor.

I'd love us both to be wrong, but even if we are and heaven does appear to us, complete with its seventh dimension, I have no intention of selling my old D200 (which gets used, on and off) and its replacement, my seldom-used (but much loved) D700. I have no des¡re to buy any other cameras; why would I - I'm all the snapper I ever will be or was. Ain'¡t nothing gonna improve that, but plenty could make it worse!

(If that qualifies as rant, then apologies to Oscar!)

;-)

[Martin Kristiansen]

Hahaha. Nope Bernard. The Sony is just a camera. At this point though an actual camera that I shot about 120 images with this morning.

[chez]

Could you please share the link to the page where Nikon claims that they have declining market share compared to Canon in the high end FF body segment?

Thanks.

Cheers,
Bernard

Go to the Nikon financial pages, open up the different years presentations and look at the graphs of the individual segments. It shows Nikon's view of total cameras and lenses sold and Nikon's shares.

Their share has been sliding steadily every year for the last 5 years if not more. Down to less than 23% of ILC sold last year. They used to compete with Canon in the 40% range not too long ago.

[32BT]

(If that qualifies as rant, then apologies to Oscar!)

Duly noted, acceptance under consideration.

[32BT]

Nikon may have discovered a way to connect owners of their mirrorless body with their being across time and space.

Bernard

Ha, the best definition of selfie if there ever was one. Perhaps the new dimension refers to a flipup lcd, god forbid...

[davidgp]

Hi,

Ok, let's contradict everybody so you all hate me and agree on something .

According to Nikei: https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/nikkei-report-sony-now-has-a-13-3-market-share-in-the-system-camera-market/ (and yes, the source of the graphs is not a very partial site... but first, you need to pay to access to Nikei analysis and second... my japanese is quite rusty), Sony has right now 13,3% of the interchangable lens market in 2017 (this is not taking into consideration things like the Sony A7 III or great part of the sales of Nikon D850). Considering that me main group of released cameras of Sony in the last years where FF, I assume their FF shared market is bigger than 1% as it was commented. In the article they also comment that Sony is growing in number of total sales around 2.9% with respect the previous year (2016).

Nikon did not grow last year in, around -0.6%, in total cameras sales (according to Nikei analysis). Nikon is saying that they had more than expected sales of the D850: https://www.the-digital-picture.com/News/News-Post.aspx?News=27344 , that has made their operational profit bigger than previous year. Nikon recognizes the increase of Mirrorless is hurting them:

"In the Imaging Products Business, revenue declined year on year due to a decrease in unit sales of digital cameras overall. Operating profit, however, increased significantly as a result of strong sales of the D850, a digital SLR camera which optimizes the combination of high resolution and high-speed performance, as well as efforts made in
cost improvement and reduction of expenses. " - https://www.nikon.com/about/ir/ir_library/result/pdf/2019/19first_1_e.pdf

Canon is still growing, with an increase of 3.9% (according to Nikei). This is also confirmed by the financial report of Canon: https://www.the-digital-picture.com/News/News-Post.aspx?News=27279

I couldn't find any study or official data about FF camera sales per manufacturer and market share. If somebody has one at hand, I will appreciate if they can share it. Until them, it is speculation.

Regards,

David

[KLaban]

...I'm all the snapper I ever will be or was. Ain'¡t nothing gonna improve that, but plenty could make it worse!...

Rob, that sounds suspiciously like standing still or being stuck in the mud.

I used to be a whippersnapper and crap snapper to boot. Over the years experience in combination with new opportunities and technologies have hopefully resulted in a little progress. No way would I want to stand still, let alone regress. If I thought for a moment that I'm all that I will ever be or was I'd give up.

Apologies if this reads as the ever so slightly tongue-in-cheek rant it was meant to be.

;-)

[shadowblade]

What I am expecting is the larger than previous mount (Z > F) will facilitate the design and use of 0.95 lenses. I remember some rumours around that, not sure from where, there is so much stuff going around... I suppose that will qualify as a "new dimension"? Or it could simply be that this "new dimension" is just a qualification of the new Z mount being larger than the F mount?

Doesn't exactly sound like a great justification for a much larger mount. f/0.95 or f/1.0 lenses would be a tiny proportion of usage and lens sales. Even if these could be made a bit smaller by using a wider throat, the wider throat would necessitate making every other lens larger to accommodate it - not exactly a good tradeoff when the bread and butter lenses are the f/2.8 zooms, f/1.4-2.0 primes and, for a small subset of fast action cameras, the superteles. Anything faster really belongs in the niche area of oddball artistic lenses rather than the category of general working lenses.

Besides, Leica has made f/0.95 and f/1.0 lenses for the 44mm M-mount, Nikon has made f/1.2 lenses for the 44mm F-mount and Canon made f/1.0 lenses for the 47mm FD mount. And Nikon and now Sony have both made fast superteles (400mm f/2. compatible with throat diameters in that range. You can use the Noctilux on an E-mount camera with no optical problems, and you can also use a Canon 400/2.8 or 600/4.0 lens (both designed for much wider throat diameters) on EF-M or E-mount with no optical problems.

EF-M and E-mount's 46mm is actually quite middle-of-the-road for 24x36mm-format lenses - some lens mounts designed for 35mm film had throat diameters as small as 39mm (although these obviously couldn't take telecentric lenses), while some designed for 6x6 film (56x56mm) were as narrow as 57mm. And many of these mounts were designed and made before digital, before high ISO, before fast film, when superfast lenses actually were a necessity just to prevent motion blur. Really, it's Canon's EF mount which is the anomaly here, not F-mount, M-mount or E-mount, which are all in the same ballpark.

I'm not saying there's no justification for a larger throat - just that fast lenses are unlikely to be the reason, unless Nikon has decided to move into a niche market rather than primarily targeting their bread-and-butter audience.

[BernardLanguillier]

Go to the Nikon financial pages, open up the different years presentations and look at the graphs of the individual segments. It shows Nikon's view of total cameras and lenses sold and Nikon's shares.

Their share has been sliding steadily every year for the last 5 years if not more. Down to less than 23% of ILC sold last year. They used to compete with Canon in the 40% range not too long ago.

Right... you (and Nikon) are talking about all DSLRs + the mirrorless 1 series, I am talking about high end FF.

Cheers,
Bernard

[chez]

Right... you (and Nikon) are talking about all DSLRs + the mirrorless 1 series, I am talking about high end FF.

Cheers,
Bernard

Yes, but we don't have these numbers so all you are doing is guessing. So purely meaningless then. Actual figures of ILC sold show Nikon slipping by quite a lot in the last 5+ years. Not too long ago they were right up there with Canon in market share, now they are 1/2 their size and it's basically mirror less that has been eating Nikon's shorts while Canon holds its own.