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Author Topic: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018  (Read 162324 times)

D Fuller

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #900 on: September 06, 2018, 11:22:48 am »

It has started...

https://www.newsshooter.com/2018/09/06/mtf-services-nikon-z-mount-adapters/

I am waiting for the first adapter that will enable to use Sony FE lenses no the Nikon Z. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

That's a welcome report. I've been anxiously awaiting the first PL adapter from a quality manufacturer. Very interested to see how a Cooke Speed Panchro looks on the Z7.
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davidgp

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #901 on: September 06, 2018, 12:32:08 pm »

Is it me... or is Lloyd mixing things here: https://diglloyd.com/blog/2018/20180906_0834-CanonEOSR-implications-for-lenses.html

Quote
Since gaining 2mm of length just means extending the lens barrel*, the Canon design is more friendly to adapting lenses designed for Sony mirrorless, versus the Nikon Z mount.

It will be the Nikon Z the one that is more easy to have a Zeiss Loxia lens adapted, right?

BJL

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system: pronunciation?
« Reply #902 on: September 06, 2018, 02:44:01 pm »

For Bernard in particular: what is the official Japanese pronunciation, “zed” or “zee”?
I know we westerners mangle both”Nikon” and “Canon”, so let’s get this one right!
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Telecaster

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system: pronunciation?
« Reply #903 on: September 06, 2018, 03:55:22 pm »

For Bernard in particular: what is the official Japanese pronunciation, “zed” or “zee”?
I know we westerners mangle both”Nikon” and “Canon”, so let’s get this one right!

As Mike Johnston (at The Online Photographer) has recently noted, "Nikon" is a made-up name and the company's own policy is effectively "say it however you like."  :)

-Dave-
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #904 on: September 06, 2018, 04:28:34 pm »

Well, Nikon Z is 16 mm and Sony E is 18 mm, so 2 mm to make a metal with chips that translate electronic signals... I’m not a mechanical or electronic engineer... but I see it a bit on a very difficult side to do...

2mm isn’t enough with the same diameter, but the Nikon may be larger enough to do something still.

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system: pronunciation?
« Reply #905 on: September 06, 2018, 04:29:17 pm »

For Bernard in particular: what is the official Japanese pronunciation, “zed” or “zee”?
I know we westerners mangle both”Nikon” and “Canon”, so let’s get this one right!

If I recall it was Zeeeeeeeeee.

Cheers,
Bernard

davidgp

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #906 on: September 06, 2018, 05:28:24 pm »

2mm isn’t enough with the same diameter, but the Nikon may be larger enough to do something still.

Cheers,
Bernard
Yes... as I say, not an engineer


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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #907 on: September 06, 2018, 07:59:45 pm »

https://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/nikon-z7/Y-BETA-DSC_0092.HTM

This is shot with the 24-70mm f4 wide open at f4 at the weakest focal length of the lens (70mm)...

Look at corner/edge sharpness of this out of camera jpg image with very light sharpening, this is simply incredibly good, regardless of the price/size of this lens.

From what I have seen, few 24-70 f2.8 pro zooms reach this level of performance at f4.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 08:16:27 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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chez

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #908 on: September 06, 2018, 08:27:16 pm »

Unfortunately for Canon, DPReview has now confirmed (seemingly directly with Canon, although this is not completely clear) that the EOS-R has 6D level weather sealing, and it sounds like 6D level build in most other ways?

Nikon is clearly saying "it's a mirrorless D850" about the build quality and specifically the sealing.

For serious outdoor use, the difference between 6D (equivalent to D610 in Nikonese) build and D850 (somewhat above 5D, although not quite 1D, in Canonspeak) build is highly significant...

What a company claims versus reality can be quite different. Let's wait until lensrentals breaks them apart.

As a side note, how many 6d cameras have you heard of that died out in the field due to the weather sealing?
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chez

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #909 on: September 06, 2018, 08:29:25 pm »

Kind of depends on the game.

Yeh, I'm still trying to locate this game where I'd need a 3 lb lens costing $3,000 in order to get the shot.
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chez

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #910 on: September 06, 2018, 08:30:50 pm »

It has started...

https://www.newsshooter.com/2018/09/06/mtf-services-nikon-z-mount-adapters/

I am waiting for the first adapter that will enable to use Sony FE lenses no the Nikon Z. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

I always knew you were a closet Sony lens fan...the Nikon cheerleading is just smoke screen.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #911 on: September 06, 2018, 08:47:00 pm »

I always knew you were a closet Sony lens fan...the Nikon cheerleading is just smoke screen.

I believe that Sony makes excellent equipment, both cameras and lenses and have been remarkably innovative. I don't remember ever writing the opposite.

Contrary to what you seem to be thinking, it is possible to think highly of Nikon without having a negative opinion of other brands.

It is just about being objective about the respective values being delivered.

The Z seems to be delivering a unique value proposition with its compact and super high quality lenses, which happens to be exactly what I was expecting of mirrorless (that's what a modern digital Leica M should have been all along), it doesn't mean I don't recognize and embrace the amazing qualities of the a7rIII for example.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 12:02:33 am by BernardLanguillier »
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D Fuller

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #912 on: September 06, 2018, 09:57:06 pm »

Is it me... or is Lloyd mixing things here: https://diglloyd.com/blog/2018/20180906_0834-CanonEOSR-implications-for-lenses.html

It will be the Nikon Z the one that is more easy to have a Zeiss Loxia lens adapted, right?

You are correct.

Though to be sure, I wouldn’t expect it to be a problem for Zeiss to make a version of the Loxias for either mount. An adapter, though, that’s a different story. It’s not likely to be possible to adapt Sony or Nikon Z lenses to the canon with its longer flange/focal distance.
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Dan Wells

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #913 on: September 07, 2018, 12:50:36 am »

I had a chance to handle a Z7 today (in a retailer, no card in it - but I could examine images on the camera screen). It's extremely well built, right in the same size range with other SLR-style mirrorless bodies (actually slightly smaller than some). I had my own X-H1 next to it and the Nikon is (very slightly) the smaller of the two. Controls are beautifully placed - the AF-area joystick in particular is right where I would want it. IBIS works - I was getting sharp shots at 1/20 second at 70mm.

The body feels great in hand - it's small and light, but every inch a modern Nikon. It has the controls of every high-end Nikon going back to when Guigiaro designed the F5. Sonys have always felt a bit too computer-ish to me - they have wonderful features, but nobody has really given any thought to how they are used as a camera (they get a little better with each generation). Canon and Nikon both have very nice control schemes, and Fuji's classic controls also make a lot of sense. The Z7 definitely speaks Nikonese, so Canon shooters will have to get used to it (from the looks of it, the EOS-R may feel quite Canonish, although without the traditional low-mounted wheel).

The viewfinder is impressive - I didn't think it's any better than an X-H1, but it's certainly no worse either, and the X-H1 has one of the newest and best EVFs on the market. They have a very impressive multi-axis level that actually shows the plane the camera is sitting in (it looks like an aircraft artificial horizon), making leveling exceptionally easy. I don't wear glasses, but the eyepoint is very good from what I could tell.

From what little I could tell, the 24-70 is a very sharp lens - the number of targets in a camera store is limited, so I suspect the pic that Imaging Resource posted is a better guide than anything I got - that's really quite impressive. I did photograph a flower arrangement in the store (working distance ~2 feet), and got pixel-level sharpness on the camera monitor.  The MTF charts are actually better than the latest Nikkor 24-70 f2.8 E ED VR, which is slightly over twice the weight. The first sample images we are seeing tend to indicate that those MTF charts may be reasonably accurate!

The build quality on the 24-70 is good, although it is plastickier than really high-end lenses.  Nikon showed a diagram of the sealing and it is excellent (made better by the fact that there are no switches on the lens). The sealing is a bunch of thick-looking ring seals around the zoom ring, the control (focus by wire - but definable to aperture or exposure compensation as well) ring and both ends of the barrel. There is quite a bit of plastic on the lens, although it has a metal barrel. It feels far better than any kit lens (except the Fujinon 18-55mm f2.8-4, which really stretches the definition of a kit lens), and somewhat better than something like a Nikkor 24-120mm f4. This is a very compact and relatively lightweight lens, especially given its capabilities. They had two different examples on display, one of which had a stiffer zoom ring than the other.

Overall, my impression was wow, that's a 45 MP camera in a tiny package. If you value portability and image quality in a rugged package, it's the state of the art. Of course, it's not for everyone - I didn't think it focused quite as snappily as an XH-1,although settings may not have been optimal, and it had beta firmware. It's   certainly better than any mirrorless before the most recent generation (which I'd define as A7 III/A7RIII, XT-2/XH-1, E-M1 mk II and GH5). It's a 5.5 fps camera (significantly more if you're willing to fix exposure at the first frame, and some sources say black out the finder as well - I didn't try it). That sounds slow, but to put it in perspective:

The legendary Nikon F3HP, beloved of press and sports photographers for years, was also a 5.5 fps camera, if you used its dedicated MD-4 motor drive and the custom rechargeable battery pack for maximum speed. That was the speed demon of its day, not so very long ago.

To match or exceed the Z7's image quality in the film era, you'd be using a single shot camera - your second image was on the other side of the 4x5 film holder! The best digital sensors below medium format (and this is perhaps the best of those) fall somewhere between the best of MF film and 4x5 film, while digital medium format can exceed 4x5 quality.

All in all, I liked it enough that my name's on the list. I'll be shooting it alongside my Fuji system...
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #914 on: September 07, 2018, 02:39:46 am »

All in all, I liked it enough that my name's on the list. I'll be shooting it alongside my Fuji system...

Congratulations on your new camera! Hopefully you won't have to wait too long to receive it. :)

Cheers,
Bernard

davidgp

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #915 on: September 07, 2018, 03:01:41 am »

You are correct.

Though to be sure, I wouldn’t expect it to be a problem for Zeiss to make a version of the Loxias for either mount. An adapter, though, that’s a different story. It’s not likely to be possible to adapt Sony or Nikon Z lenses to the canon with its longer flange/focal distance.

Yes, I will be surprised if Zeiss didn’t adapt their Loxia line to either Nikon Z or Canon R.


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armand

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #916 on: September 07, 2018, 07:50:23 am »

I had a chance to handle a Z7 today (in a retailer, no card in it - but I could examine images on the camera screen). It's extremely well built, right in the same size range with other SLR-style mirrorless bodies (actually slightly smaller than some). I had my own X-H1 next to it and the Nikon is (very slightly) the smaller of the two. Controls are beautifully placed - the AF-area joystick in particular is right where I would want it. IBIS works - I was getting sharp shots at 1/20 second at 70mm.

The body feels great in hand - it's small and light, but every inch a modern Nikon. It has the controls of every high-end Nikon going back to when Guigiaro designed the F5. Sonys have always felt a bit too computer-ish to me - they have wonderful features, but nobody has really given any thought to how they are used as a camera (they get a little better with each generation). Canon and Nikon both have very nice control schemes, and Fuji's classic controls also make a lot of sense. The Z7 definitely speaks Nikonese, so Canon shooters will have to get used to it (from the looks of it, the EOS-R may feel quite Canonish, although without the traditional low-mounted wheel).

The viewfinder is impressive - I didn't think it's any better than an X-H1, but it's certainly no worse either, and the X-H1 has one of the newest and best EVFs on the market. They have a very impressive multi-axis level that actually shows the plane the camera is sitting in (it looks like an aircraft artificial horizon), making leveling exceptionally easy. I don't wear glasses, but the eyepoint is very good from what I could tell.

From what little I could tell, the 24-70 is a very sharp lens - the number of targets in a camera store is limited, so I suspect the pic that Imaging Resource posted is a better guide than anything I got - that's really quite impressive. I did photograph a flower arrangement in the store (working distance ~2 feet), and got pixel-level sharpness on the camera monitor.  The MTF charts are actually better than the latest Nikkor 24-70 f2.8 E ED VR, which is slightly over twice the weight. The first sample images we are seeing tend to indicate that those MTF charts may be reasonably accurate!

The build quality on the 24-70 is good, although it is plastickier than really high-end lenses.  Nikon showed a diagram of the sealing and it is excellent (made better by the fact that there are no switches on the lens). The sealing is a bunch of thick-looking ring seals around the zoom ring, the control (focus by wire - but definable to aperture or exposure compensation as well) ring and both ends of the barrel. There is quite a bit of plastic on the lens, although it has a metal barrel. It feels far better than any kit lens (except the Fujinon 18-55mm f2.8-4, which really stretches the definition of a kit lens), and somewhat better than something like a Nikkor 24-120mm f4. This is a very compact and relatively lightweight lens, especially given its capabilities. They had two different examples on display, one of which had a stiffer zoom ring than the other.

Overall, my impression was wow, that's a 45 MP camera in a tiny package. If you value portability and image quality in a rugged package, it's the state of the art. Of course, it's not for everyone - I didn't think it focused quite as snappily as an XH-1,although settings may not have been optimal, and it had beta firmware. It's   certainly better than any mirrorless before the most recent generation (which I'd define as A7 III/A7RIII, XT-2/XH-1, E-M1 mk II and GH5). It's a 5.5 fps camera (significantly more if you're willing to fix exposure at the first frame, and some sources say black out the finder as well - I didn't try it). That sounds slow, but to put it in perspective:

The legendary Nikon F3HP, beloved of press and sports photographers for years, was also a 5.5 fps camera, if you used its dedicated MD-4 motor drive and the custom rechargeable battery pack for maximum speed. That was the speed demon of its day, not so very long ago.

To match or exceed the Z7's image quality in the film era, you'd be using a single shot camera - your second image was on the other side of the 4x5 film holder! The best digital sensors below medium format (and this is perhaps the best of those) fall somewhere between the best of MF film and 4x5 film, while digital medium format can exceed 4x5 quality.

All in all, I liked it enough that my name's on the list. I'll be shooting it alongside my Fuji system...

The focus not being as good as the best in class is less than ideal. Experience with Fuji shows that firmware updates improve it but doesn't dramatically make it better. For my uses as a landscape camera this would be likely good enough, particularly if the manual focus is good, after all I can easily work with a X-E1.
I suspect many others would not be happy though.

Dan Wells

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #917 on: September 07, 2018, 10:05:20 am »

This is MUCH better than an XE-1. From a brief test in a dark camera store with beta firmware and unknown settings, a challenging test for anything except a D5 or an EOS-1Dx mkII, it's at least as good as an X-T1, an A7rII, or an E-M1. What it lags is the very latest generation of X-H1, E-M1 mk II and probably the A7 mk III series (I've never actually handled a mk III, and didn't have the presence of mind to ask for one yesterday).

I own Fuji gear, and can confidently place the newcomer between the X-T1 and the X-H1 (the reason I don't mention the X-T2 is that I'm not quite sure - I'd probably give the edge to the X-T2, but it's pretty close). A friend has an E-M1 mk II, and that's clearly better.

The Z7 has several clear advantages to its AF - some in the body, others in the lens. One is that the phase detect coverage is extraordinarily wide - far wider than any other camera I have used. It's not quite as wide as the published specs for the EOS-R or the X-T3, but all three of the newcomers have very wide PDAF coverage we haven't seen before. The second is that the AF is really silent (on the 24-70). Think purpose-built video lens silent...
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #918 on: September 07, 2018, 10:07:35 am »

Dan,

Did you also test the AF with the 35mm f1.8 wide open?

Cheers,
Bernard

jeremyrh

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #919 on: September 07, 2018, 12:20:09 pm »

Just had the opportunity to play with a Z7 in a shop (Park Cameras in London in case anyone is passing). Not a detailed test but it feels really nice in the hand and everything worked as far as it was possible to judge in a few minutes.

The question now is - do I trade in my D850, my Oly m43 system, both, or neither?
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