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Author Topic: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018  (Read 87743 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #860 on: September 01, 2018, 09:44:35 am »

It's not me that does not care...it's the people who view or purchase my images that don't care...

People also purchase Elvis or dogs playing cards on velvet.

Hulyss

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #861 on: September 01, 2018, 10:58:18 am »

Pre-reviews are pretty mixed but I'm not as excited as the annoncement of the DF (even if it turned to be an half camera). I see a lot of drama over all the forums… it killed some of the magic.

I really like the idea of mirror less but I fear to not be pleased once I get one. My mother own Canon, Sony and Leica so I can test some other brands. I bought the XT1 back in the day with the holly trinity but sold it after some month of use, was not my cup of tea and get back to my D700. The canon DSLR and UI isn't my cup of tea (I love canon colors), sony is a big NoNoo and Leica out of my reach and not convenient for what I do.


I still shoot with only one camera, corporate, weeding and all, my jack of all trade with one CF slot : the D700.

Never got a problem (might have one if I continue reading forums …), never got a complain from my clients.

I really need an upgrade and I thought it was now, with solid mirror less offer from Nikon but … I do not think so, at all. By what I've seen actually on the AF, my D700 track better (as well as most semipro DSLR). Sony have a good AF but nowhere on this planet I'm gonna go sony route. Lenses for the Z aren't what I expected.


I the other hand, Canon come with a new camera and the lenses correspond to what I expected from Nikon : The 28-70f2 and the 50f1.2 with AF. If the AF is proven very good on the EOS R I might jump, because I also need video too and especially for the lenses and because the body is less green "auto" on a dial... I'm only 40 but I start to be tired to wait Nikon checking the right boxes.


Time will tell but neither Nikon or Canon might check the right boxes in what I expect to dump my D700.

IMHO, the Z cameras are very overpriced, especially the lenses. The D850 still the king.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2018, 11:09:21 am by Hulyss »
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Hulyss

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #862 on: September 01, 2018, 11:18:17 am »

Paradoxically, there is actually only one device (mirror less) that deeply seduced me a few years ago: The Sony RX1R

Although it is a Sony, its compactness and optical performance have delighted me. I would have liked to buy one if I had the money.


Even if the AF is not at the rendez vous, it might be the perfect compagnon for a DLSR.
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armand

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #863 on: September 01, 2018, 03:50:08 pm »

I didn't think this Nikon would interest me after seeing the original specs but the more I think about it I think it makes sense as an addition to the Nikon DSLRs.
The image quality seems to be similar to the D850, which means as good as it gets; if the lenses are sharp you can have a significantly more compact kit for landscapes/hiking and things like autofocus and others don't have to be top of the line.
Why no a Sony? Well, you already have some Nikon DSLRs lenses. For somebody starting from zero it will be a little more difficult but probably still competitive. The sensor and colors are as good or better and the weather sealing allegedly is superior. The downsides will be the lenses, fewer options for now. If the 15-30 comes out fast and it's very good, then along with the 24-70 and a bright prime you are set. For the telephoto (in landscapes, not wildlife) you can add the 70-200 F4 with the adapter and call it the day.

I would wait to see what Fuji does, both on camera side: the X-T3 and the GFX 50R, and on the lens side: the 16-80 F4 WR, before a final decision. The GFX 50R in particular might put a lot of pressure.

Telecaster

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #864 on: September 01, 2018, 03:57:00 pm »

Yes, but:
- the Zeiss has cat eyes oof highlights when shot at f1.8 , does it not?
- it doesnít use aspherical glass elements, which is why it doesnít exhibit any weird texture in those areas.

There's a wee bit of catty-coma in the frame edges/corners below f/2 or so. I've attached an example, at f/1.4, from a pic taken last year that I neglected to delete at the time.  :D  I like coma effects, but then I tend to like artifacts in general. It's why I so often use lenses wide open. The coma is due to oblique light-ray angles at wide apertures despite the lens' "Distagon" (retrofocus) design.

The lens does use aspherical elements, though: two of 'em. It has floating elements as well.

-Dave-
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Telecaster

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #865 on: September 01, 2018, 04:06:54 pm »

As far as I can tell the Nikon is the first compactish wide using aspherical glass elements for excellent corner performance with such pure rendering.

Oh, also, the Zeiss is not a compact lensÖat least not for an RF 35mm. It's IMO on the verge of being too big.

-Dave-
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John Camp

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #866 on: September 01, 2018, 05:08:17 pm »

People also purchase Elvis or dogs playing cards on velvet.

I've had my eye out for a while for a good print rendition of Dogs Playing Cards. But I want the classic (Coolidge) one, not the rip-offs. I haven't seen one on velvet.
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Bernard ODonovan

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #867 on: September 01, 2018, 06:57:18 pm »

Random YouTube tests

https://youtube.com/watch?v=tfmgaMyApyg

https://youtube.com/watch?v=AcZFY99St9c

https://youtube.com/watch?v=K2OogKTGGWE

I like the approach Nikon has taken with the new lens mount. The prime MTFs suggest very sharp lenses. Good balance of size vs performance for the 1.8s.  I wish them well with the new cameras too...

Interesting card door come thumb rest. Not sure I would have designed it to do both roles...

A great start and a D5 type Zee to follow...

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chez

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #868 on: September 01, 2018, 07:58:42 pm »

People also purchase Elvis or dogs playing cards on velvet.

Right...and if they are willing to pay the price I'd ask for those things...I'd have no problem selling to them.

Obviously you would not sell a great portrait shot to a paying customer with their wallet open because there is an onion bokeh in the upper right corner.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #869 on: September 01, 2018, 08:25:11 pm »

...I'd have no problem selling to them...

Some of us have higher standards when offering things for sale.

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #870 on: September 01, 2018, 10:41:37 pm »

Some of us have higher standards when offering things for sale.

+1 :D

Cheers,
Bernard

KLaban

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #871 on: September 02, 2018, 12:26:19 pm »

Oh, also, the Zeiss is not a compact lensÖat least not for an RF 35mm. It's IMO on the verge of being too big.

-Dave-

And that's the only reason I've not bought it.

Hate rangefinder blockage.
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scooby70

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #872 on: September 02, 2018, 06:03:31 pm »

Paradoxically, there is actually only one device (mirror less) that deeply seduced me a few years ago: The Sony RX1R

Although it is a Sony, its compactness and optical performance have delighted me. I would have liked to buy one if I had the money.


Even if the AF is not at the rendez vous, it might be the perfect compagnon for a DLSR.

Have you noticed the rumor sites are saying that a Zeiss branded fixed lens camera is coming? It'll be interesting to see what they do.
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scooby70

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #873 on: September 02, 2018, 06:06:45 pm »

Just a thought...

No one is launching with 35 and 85mm f1.8's and 24/28-70mm and 70-200mm zooms. I'd have thought that would have been a good start.

Just goes to show I know nothing :D
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #874 on: September 02, 2018, 08:35:43 pm »

Just a thought...

No one is launching with 35 and 85mm f1.8's and 24/28-70mm and 70-200mm zooms. I'd have thought that would have been a good start.

Just goes to show I know nothing :D

There is need for coherence btwn camera spec and lenses spec IMHO.

Altgough the Zs are nearly pro spec, they arenít fully. My guess is that we will get one or two full pro-spec body with the 24-70 f2.8 and 70-200 f2.8 next year.

Those needing a full pro mirrorless setup now should go the Sony route. Plain and simple.

Cheers,
Bernard

eronald

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #875 on: September 02, 2018, 09:32:47 pm »

Have you noticed the rumor sites are saying that a Zeiss branded fixed lens camera is coming? It'll be interesting to see what they do.

I think it submerged again. The teases were pulled.

Edmund
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D Fuller

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #876 on: September 02, 2018, 11:17:09 pm »

Just a thought...

No one is launching with 35 and 85mm f1.8's and 24/28-70mm and 70-200mm zooms. I'd have thought that would have been a good start.

Just goes to show I know nothing :D

I donít think youíre so far off. Within the first year, Nikon has a whole set of f/1.8 primes from 20 to 85 matched to the scale of the Zcameras, plus two different sets of zooms. I like that roadmap a lot.
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scooby70

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #877 on: September 03, 2018, 05:25:43 am »

I think it submerged again. The teases were pulled.

Edmund

They were pulled but the rumor is back with people saying it's real and that it will be announced on 27th September. A short time will therefore obviously tell :D

I did think about getting an RX1 but I thought it wouldn't be truly pocketable and would need to go in a bag and I therefore might as well go for an A7 and have the advantage of being able to change lenses. Plus I have a possibly irrational fear of getting sensor contamination and although with a fixed lens camera it's probably less likely if it happens it'll be a lot harder to deal with.
 
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 05:28:55 am by scooby70 »
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Dan Wells

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #878 on: September 03, 2018, 06:30:21 pm »

Nikon came relatively close to Bernard's ideal launch lenses (the 70-200 is missing, and the fourth lens will be the exotic Noct instead of the 70-200 or something else with broad application like a wide prime or the 14-30 zoom). A good start. It looks like their expansion roadmap is relatively sensible, too. The first year of the system is supposed to include that 70-200, a relatively fast portrait lens, a wide prime, the 14-30, a 24-70 f2.8 (not sure I'd have duplicated a focal length only a stop apart in the first year) and the Noct. Most of those have broad application - hopefully, the quality will be excellent. Nothing on the roadmap is really long, but Nikon is a DSLR company, and anyone who wants a 600mm f4 probably has a D850 or a D5 to go with it (if you occasionally want to use it on your Z7, the adapter is a pretty good solution that preserves focus and VR).
Overall, a nice opening kit and roadmap that gets important lenses out quickly and adds some interesting oddities. I like the choice to prioritize f4 zooms over f2.8 at first - it preserves the size and weight advantage of mirrorless. I actually wish the first-year 70-200 were an f4 - save the f2.8 lenses for the second and third year (assuming the f4 lenses are optically excellent, and the difference to the f2.8 models is just a stop of speed, not image quality).

Looking at what other camera manufacturers have done (and are doing)...

Fuji went for classic rangefinder lenses (correctly changing the focal lengths to account for APS-C), added a little gem of an 18-55 (the only one on the market with decent image quality), and then filled in the line in a generally sensible manner. They have a high quality lineup - only a couple of duds (and they even label their duds XC instead of XF). The current Fuji line stretches from 10-400 mm with quite good coverage in both primes and zooms - anything missing (after the next couple of introductions) is an exotic (tilt-shift, fisheye).
The next two lenses fill some of the last holes.  One is long and fast (200 f2 with TCs that get it to 300 f2.8 and 400 f4 - remembering the focal length conversion, that's roughly equivalent to 300/420/600 on FF, with the longer options being a tiny bit slow from a DOF perspective (although fast from a light-gathering perspective). The other is an 8-16 zoom that gets the widest lens on the system to 12mm equivalent  - only Canon's 11-24 gets wider. Fuji's system is behind only the DSLR giants in comprehensiveness, and the quality is excellent. They could use a first-party fisheye (there's a Samyang/Rokinon), and a tilt-shift lens or two...

Micro 4/3 has a very comprehensive lineup, including some gems and some duds. There are even more options than Fuji, including a first-party fisheye that is one of Fuji's few gaps, and you can find a high quality version of just about anything you want, often after navigating three or four lousy lenses to get there. The real strengths are compactness and IS - there are quite a few pancakes with surprising image quality, the pocket-sized long telephotos have shocking reach and the Olympus 12-100 on the E-M1 mk II (lens and body stabilizing together) can be handheld at 1/4 second or even longer - or can shoot video with an "internal Steadicam". The weakness is that the same little sensor with a big crop factor that made those telephoto fields of view amazing and allowed the IS means that depth of field and noise are compromised. Most of the telephotos are f5.6 on the long end to keep them small - that's somewhat slow even measuring straight light-gathering and possible shutter speeds, and it's roughly f11 equivalent from a DOF perspective. People have worried about wide angles on the small sensor, but there are a couple of zooms that get down to 7mm for a 14mm FOV.
The exotics are missing, and some of the long ones may be impossible if you care about subject isolation. The depth of field equivalent of a 300 mm f2.8 on the little sensor is a 150 mm f1.4, and I've never heard of such a lens on any system (the APS-C equivalent 200 mm f2.0 is not all that hard - Canon, Nikon and soon Fuji all make them in decent numbers ). A 600 mm f4 would be a 300 mm f2, which IS actually possible, if difficult - Nikon once made a few in manual focus. Even matching the depth of field of a f2.8 zoom on full-frame requires a f1.4 zoom (impossible?).
No reason tilt-shift lenses wouldn't work - they'd require even higher mechanical precision than usual (maybe electronically controlled)?  The other option if someone wants to get really creative is to use a tilting/shifting sensor! The small sensor means there's plenty of room, which is why the IBIS works so well. Many lenses probably have extra coverage, and the movements needed are small, again due to the small sensor. Could Olympus do this on the E-M1 mk III???

Sony began their lens lineups by smoking something odd... The initial lenses on APS-C were almost completely random, and the FF lineup didn't start much better. The FF lineup has matured nicely and is now quite comprehensive with many high-quality options, although there are still a few weak or missing lenses in surprising places. The 24-70 f4 is still the "Zeiss" that was released with the original a7, and is widely known to be inferior to most other lenses in that range. The widest first-party prime is 28mm, although there is a Zeiss Batis 18mm and a Sigma Art 14mm. The G-Masters have helped a lot. I'm not a Sony shooter, and I don't have close friends who are, so I don't know many of the lenses (does the relatively new 24-105 fill in for the weak 24-70?).
The APS-C lineup is still fairly random - a lot of cheap consumer zooms that don't do the sensors justice mixed in with a few nice higher-end lenses. Some of the weaker lenses are quite notably poor. At least one review of the 16-50 kit zoom that will be most people's first lens called it the worst lens they had ever reviewed, and one of the pancakes has been compared to a Lensbaby.  Is the newish 18-135 which is showing up in kits the first stronger normal zoom? It would be hard to put together a nice Sony APS-C kit without using mainly FF lenses (and why not use FF bodies if you're carrying the larger lenses)?

Canon appears to have stolen some of Sony's smoking material and inhaled more deeply ... The APS-C lenses make some sense if you look at the system only from an entry-level consumer viewpoint, but not much even then. With the midrange bodies they have been releasing, these lenses make no sense at all.  Two primes and four variable-aperture zooms with overlapping focal length ranges, with three of the zooms being f6.3 at the long end, with no lens over $500. One prime is a 22mm  f2 pancake - not a bad choice - compact and a nice focal length given the sensor size. The other is a uselessly short 28mm macro lens - it's not quite a 50mm equivalent, it doesn't have the working distance to be a useful macro, and it's f3.5, limiting its usefulness as a short normal lens. Two of the zooms are meant to be the standard consumer pair (18-55 and 55-200), but have a couple of oddities - one is that the short lens (unusual), as well as the 55-200 (sadly, common) are f6.3. The second is that the short lens is 15-45mm instead of 18-55, which adds a nice bit of wide angle, but leaves a perplexing gap in the portrait lens range. There is an 18-150 travel zoom - the extra bit of telephoto over a standard 18-135 is welcome, our old friend f6.3 is not. The final zoom is another odd choice - it's an 11-22mm. They have that extra bit of wide on the standard zoom, so the only range in which the wide angle is unique is 11-15mm. Something like a 9-18mm would have been a far better fit here.
The initial lineup for their FF system doesn't look much better, although the problems are different. Two of the lenses make pretty good sense - the 35mm is a great choice, and the 24-105mm f4 is a good walkaround zoom (although quite a bit heavier than Nikon's 24-70). I would personally prefer the 24-70 to save the weight, but this is a matter of preference - either is a reasonable choice for a first zoom for a mirrorless system.
The other two choices are perplexing to say the least. A 50mm prime is great, but a 1 kg 50mm f1.2 prime doesn't go well with a small mirrorless body (at least not as the only 50 mm option). The 28-70mm f2.0 is ridiculously heavy at 1430 grams - it's between 1.5x and twice as heavy as common 24-70 f2.8 lenses. Why start the system with two big, heavy, expensive, exotically fast lenses? The 28-70 would be a nice exotic addition to a system that already had f4 and f2.8 lenses in that focal length range (it would be an interesting addition to Canon's EF system, for example).
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John Camp

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #879 on: September 03, 2018, 06:41:07 pm »

<big snip>
Micro 4/3 has a very comprehensive lineup, including some gems and some duds. The exotics are missing... <big snip>

Good post. I have a couple of GX8s that I use all the time, and would point out that Voightlander offers two f/0.95 lenses in native m4/3 mounts. One at 25mm (50mm equiv) and one at 42.5 (85mm equiv.)
I have both and they are okay, if not great.

I didn't know this, but (after making the post above) I found that Voightlander also offers 10.5mm (21) and 17.5mm (35mm) lenses at f/0.95 in native m4/3 mounts.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 06:48:42 pm by John Camp »
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