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Author Topic: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018  (Read 162970 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #880 on: September 03, 2018, 07:19:17 pm »

Dan,

I share your views 100%.

But as I wrote elsewhere, I think we must look at the Canon initial lenses from China and think in terms of bling culture. IMHO, the exotics where not designed to be used by "working" photographers (although I am sure some will put them to good use), they were designed to please Chinese fanboys with big cash to spend who want to be seen with the bigger lens than their Nikon shooter friends. Those will be a good match for the high end Audis that roam the streets of Pudong at night (and yes, we are talking about perhaps .1% of the population of China, meaning 1+ million people, enough to sell a few thousands of 28-70 f2).

Whether we like it or not, the dominantly western older crowd at LL is mostly irrelevant to marketing oriented companies such as Canon. They design what will sell in China. Obviously Canon North America will deny this vigorously but that's the only way I can make sense from the decisions Canon took. Some may call this Leicaisation. ;)

More traditional companies (or I should probably write companies who don't understand the world as well) such as Nikon are probably still thinking a bit about us and that may be the reason why they designed high quality compact lenses to go with a compact camera... but that is making way too much sense I guess (although it could be argued that the 58mm f0.95 is targetting the same crowd). ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 10:19:02 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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Dan Wells

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #881 on: September 03, 2018, 10:12:34 pm »

Maybe so - Bernards's is the best explanation I have heard for these lenses - I like the term Leicaization... I believe there was an interview with Andreas Kaufmann (spelling?), the president of Leica, in which he admitted something like "we could leave the sensor out of half the cameras we make - we just don't know which ones will never be used". Hopefully, Canon doesn't go too far down that road.

Dan
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Telecaster

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #882 on: September 04, 2018, 05:06:59 pm »

Re. Leicaization: those of us who love using rangefinders can benefit from cameras bought but never (or rarely) used. When a new model comes out the now "obsolete" one often gets sold at a decent discount. This is how I got both my M8s and M9, all from the same person. With the M10 we decided to cut right to the chase: I bought the camera and my acquaintance reimbursed me for what likely would've been the eventual discount.  ;D  In the meantime he mostly keeps it but sometimes I borrow it too.

Re. m43 and noise: I know this is a personal preference thing. I personally like having some texture in my photos—pleasing grain is the main thing I miss from film days—and the sensor in the GX8 creates the most grain-like noise I've seen so far. The attached pic is just a post-firmware-upgrade test from earlier this afternoon…my 14–140mm lens now supports dual sensor/lens IS. It's at ISO 3200 and shows something of what I mean by pleasing texture. This tiny lens has quite a nice OOF character too at the long end, and can focus down to 30cm at an "equivalent" of 280mm. IMO controlling depth of field with an m43 camera is mostly a matter of technique. Get out of the "full frame" mindset and you'll be fine.

-Dave-
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DougDolde

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #883 on: September 04, 2018, 06:46:49 pm »

I think what it comes down to is if you already have a D850, the Z7 would be a downgrade.  If you are trying to decide between the two go for the D850
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Dan Wells

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #884 on: September 04, 2018, 07:28:48 pm »

We've had a real-life battery life test on the Z7 from a photographer who goes by nikonricci on Instagram and YouTube. Obviously not definitive, but looking very good. He got just over 1000 shots using it for street photography with a little video, and close to 2000 doing wildlife with AF (500mm PF through the adapter) and VR  - both sound like some version of real-life conditions. He used the camera's built-in shots per charge counter to determine life... He also got a little over 2 hours of video on a static scene (so no refocusing).

All three of these numbers sound like what we'd expect from an en-el15 camera, maybe even a little better. They aren't as good as a d850 with no live view and little chimping, but they wouldn't be expected to be, either. They're also roughly in the range with the "big-battery" Sonys, and more than twice what the "small-battery" Sonys get out of their much smaller battery.

I'd expect the Canon R to post numbers in the same range - FF mirrorless with a big battery gets around 1000 shots, more in a really good use case...
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #885 on: September 04, 2018, 08:56:32 pm »

I think what it comes down to is if you already have a D850, the Z7 would be a downgrade.  If you are trying to decide between the two go for the D850

As a D850/D5 owner, I see things a bit differently.

This was already explained earlier in this thread in minute details, but there are objective advantages of a high-end mirrorless body such as the Z7, including the size, the advantages of EVF that have been explained at length by Sony a7 users, some AF advantages,...

I will buy a Z7 and test it in parallel to my D850 to see their respective value for native and F mount lenses for the kind of allround shooting I have been doing with my D850.

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #886 on: September 05, 2018, 02:22:37 am »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=372&v=KyonQ_OsA5Q

I know, this is Nikon marketing. But what struck me here is the focus on the quality of the EVF around 5:45. It appears that the Chief Engineer who developped the Z system feels that the EVF is the most remarkable aspect of the camera, on top of the mount.

I compare that to the 2 sec comment of the Northup in their famous video when they speak of this EVF as being no different from that of other mirrorless cameras... and I am surprised again. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Dan Wells

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #887 on: September 05, 2018, 10:40:31 am »

Sight unseen (I'm going to a Nikon Z launch event tomorrow, and will also attend a local Canon R event when I hear of one), I far prefer the Nikon for my needs (landscape, often on long backcountry hikes)...

1.) D850 sensor vs. 5DmkIV sensor. For me, the whole point of full-frame is image quality that nothing less can bring - I shoot 24 MP APS-C Fuji, and would only consider something that can really beat that. Canon offers a barely noticeable 6 extra MP, and about 2/3 of a stop of extra DR - mostly by setting the (indicated - I know that what Fuji considers 200 is more like 125 to Canon or Nikon) ISO below Fuji's 200 minimum. Nikon offers nearly double the pixels I have, and something close to 1.5 stops of extra DR (by using ISO 64).

2.) Lenses. This is tricky, because it requires assumptions on optical quality. Everybody who's shot with the Nikon says the lenses are great, but that is still in the "remains to be seen" category. I like the size and weight of the initial Nikon lenses much better. Two of Canon's four are so heavy I would never consider them, and there's no roadmap to see what's coming. Nikon has a 24-70 that I consider a near-perfect backpacking lens (Canon's 24-105 is a little big, but acceptable), and a roadmap that shows a reasonable-size 14-30 on its way. If those Nikkors live up to the claimed quality, it's a darned nice start.

3.)IBIS. Nikon yes, Canon no...

4.)Weather sealing. Nikon specifically says D850 level, which is a very small step down from their best (D5), and is built to survive the backcountry. Canon says (insert sound of crickets) "it has some sealing". My guess is 6D/80D type sealing, which is similar to the D610 and a little better than the Sonys. If it had their best or something close, I'd hope they'd say it. Maybe it does, and that'll come out soon?The latest Fujis are similar to a D850, and I don't want to go down a level...

5.) Cards. I don't love one card slot on either camera, but Nikon's is XQD with improved speed and durability. At this level, I'm not concerned with replacing a few hundred dollars worth of memory cards. That would be a real consideration on a sub-$1000 camera.
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armand

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #888 on: September 05, 2018, 01:30:58 pm »

Sight unseen (I'm going to a Nikon Z launch event tomorrow, and will also attend a local Canon R event when I hear of one), I far prefer the Nikon for my needs (landscape, often on long backcountry hikes)...

1.) D850 sensor vs. 5DmkIV sensor. For me, the whole point of full-frame is image quality that nothing less can bring - I shoot 24 MP APS-C Fuji, and would only consider something that can really beat that. Canon offers a barely noticeable 6 extra MP, and about 2/3 of a stop of extra DR - mostly by setting the (indicated - I know that what Fuji considers 200 is more like 125 to Canon or Nikon) ISO below Fuji's 200 minimum. Nikon offers nearly double the pixels I have, and something close to 1.5 stops of extra DR (by using ISO 64).

2.) Lenses. This is tricky, because it requires assumptions on optical quality. Everybody who's shot with the Nikon says the lenses are great, but that is still in the "remains to be seen" category. I like the size and weight of the initial Nikon lenses much better. Two of Canon's four are so heavy I would never consider them, and there's no roadmap to see what's coming. Nikon has a 24-70 that I consider a near-perfect backpacking lens (Canon's 24-105 is a little big, but acceptable), and a roadmap that shows a reasonable-size 14-30 on its way. If those Nikkors live up to the claimed quality, it's a darned nice start.

3.)IBIS. Nikon yes, Canon no...

4.)Weather sealing. Nikon specifically says D850 level, which is a very small step down from their best (D5), and is built to survive the backcountry. Canon says (insert sound of crickets) "it has some sealing". My guess is 6D/80D type sealing, which is similar to the D610 and a little better than the Sonys. If it had their best or something close, I'd hope they'd say it. Maybe it does, and that'll come out soon?The latest Fujis are similar to a D850, and I don't want to go down a level...

5.) Cards. I don't love one card slot on either camera, but Nikon's is XQD with improved speed and durability. At this level, I'm not concerned with replacing a few hundred dollars worth of memory cards. That would be a real consideration on a sub-$1000 camera.

What you say is close to what I would say. I do have also m43 and full frame Nikon dSLR, but Fuji gets the most use. Let us know how the decision evolves for you.

PS. Don't forget Fuji, X-T3 later today and GFX 50R in few months.

faberryman

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #889 on: September 05, 2018, 01:34:47 pm »

For a current Fuji user thinking of moving to FF mirrorless for still photography (no video), and no investment in Canon, Nikon or Sony lenses, is there any reason to pick the Canon or Nikon over the Sony? I'm not seeing what these new systems bring to the table. Looks like me too offerings.
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D Fuller

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #890 on: September 05, 2018, 02:13:00 pm »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=372&v=KyonQ_OsA5Q

I know, this is Nikon marketing. But what struck me here is the focus on the quality of the EVF around 5:45. It appears that the Chief Engineer who developped the Z system feels that the EVF is the most remarkable aspect of the camera, on top of the mount.

I compare that to the 2 sec comment of the Northup in their famous video when they speak of this EVF as being no different from that of other mirrorless cameras... and I am surprised again. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Is this the same Tony Northrup who rated the a7r3 better than the D850 in battery life because it had USB charging? And you’re surprised?
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Telecaster

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #891 on: September 05, 2018, 03:05:06 pm »

Is this the same Tony Northrup who rated the a7r3 better than the D850 in battery life because it had USB charging? And you’re surprised?

If I remember right Tony likes USB charging, when travelling, 'cuz it allows you to charge two batteries at once: one via external charger & the other in-camera. I've done this too. He wasn't making a general statement of superiority.

-Dave-
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Dan Wells

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #892 on: September 05, 2018, 08:09:25 pm »

Unfortunately for Canon, DPReview has now confirmed (seemingly directly with Canon, although this is not completely clear) that the EOS-R has 6D level weather sealing, and it sounds like 6D level build in most other ways?

Nikon is clearly saying "it's a mirrorless D850" about the build quality and specifically the sealing.

For serious outdoor use, the difference between 6D (equivalent to D610 in Nikonese) build and D850 (somewhat above 5D, although not quite 1D, in Canonspeak) build is highly significant...
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D Fuller

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #893 on: September 05, 2018, 11:18:38 pm »

If I remember right Tony likes USB charging, when travelling, 'cuz it allows you to charge two batteries at once: one via external charger & the other in-camera. I've done this too. He wasn't making a general statement of superiority.

-Dave-

Yes, actually he was. (It was in their a7r3 vs D850 video. He made equally silly calls in the D850's favor, but I can't remember what they  were at the moment, and I'm not interested enough to watch the vid again.)

I get the value of USB charging--espeially for the earlier Sony cameras that needed a basketfull of bateries to get through a day. But that's really not the point. The point is that I find him awfully hard to take seriously because makes a lot of silly calls like that.

He can never seem to separate his own personal preferences from what the camera does, and that's not really a good trait for a reviewer. It's fine--even good to discuss your preferences as a reviewer, but it's not fine to say "the camera doesn't work" when what you really mean is "the camera doesn't work the way I'd prefer it to work." That becomes even more of a problem when you've only got an hour with a camera.
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Dan Wells

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #894 on: September 05, 2018, 11:33:18 pm »

I'm going to a Z-series launch event tomorrow - supposedly bodies and lenses will be available to handle. I'll post my impressions tomorrow night - I won't have a chance to take it out to shoot anything but the inside of a camera shop, but I'll bring my X-H1 to compare side by side...
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Bo_Dez

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #895 on: September 06, 2018, 06:28:20 am »

I don't understand the negativity of the Z cameras.

It's a very solid release and I'm sure will have D850 performance in a drastically smaller package with all the mirrorless bells and whistles, IBIS etc.

I don't care about the single card slot.

This will supplement and complement my Medium Format use very nicely.

BUT. That Canon f2 zoom has made me pause on my order, what a game changer.
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faberryman

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #896 on: September 06, 2018, 07:55:18 am »

BUT. That Canon f2 zoom has made me pause on my order, what a game changer.
Kind of depends on the game.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #897 on: September 06, 2018, 08:57:18 am »

It has started...

https://www.newsshooter.com/2018/09/06/mtf-services-nikon-z-mount-adapters/

I am waiting for the first adapter that will enable to use Sony FE lenses no the Nikon Z. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Dan Wells

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #898 on: September 06, 2018, 09:34:49 am »

Is that practical, or are the flange distances too similar? I haven't seen a mirrorless to mirrorless adapter (other than Leica M lenses to various bodies, and the M mount is substantially deeper than newer mirrorless mounts)...
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davidgp

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Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #899 on: September 06, 2018, 10:12:04 am »

Is that practical, or are the flange distances too similar? I haven't seen a mirrorless to mirrorless adapter (other than Leica M lenses to various bodies, and the M mount is substantially deeper than newer mirrorless mounts)...

Well, Nikon Z is 16 mm and Sony E is 18 mm, so 2 mm to make a metal with chips that translate electronic signals... I’m not a mechanical or electronic engineer... but I see it a bit on a very difficult side to do...




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