Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018

[Rob C]

And OVF are objectively worse at displaying the subject you are trying to photograph as you are photographing it. In addition to that with an EVF you can see the subject as it is just by lifting your eye.

Regards

Please, clarify that. I really can't understand what you are telling me. I can't see how an EVF shows you "the subject as it is just by lifting your eye."

Rob

[Rob C]

Hahahahaha. Rob you are such a grumpy old git and and now I find myself agreeing with you completely. I might also be a grumpy old git.

Could be, but I doubt it: I am usually older than anybody else I meet.

From the other angle, maybe you make photographs with more interest in the photographs you make, than you have in obsessing about the tools used to make the photographs you make.

;-)

[Telecaster]

My favorite SLR viewfinder is the one in my Contax Aria (the single film SLR I still use from time to time). It's bright and big with near-perfect eye relief for use with glasses. And it features the focusing screen aids lacking in nearly all D-SLRs.

The same camera also has the most accurate evaluative metering system I've ever used. Hundreds of rolls of Kodachrome 25/64/200 run through it, not to mention all the neg film, and less than a handful of exposure misses that I can remember. It's a shame Kyocera gave up on cameras after the N Digital.

All approaches to cameras and camera subsystems have pluses and minuses. The pluses and minuses have as much to do with us and our particular tastes as with the tech. Like what you like, dislike what you dislike. And chill…

-Dave-

[Rob C]

My favorite SLR viewfinder is the one in my Contax Aria (the single film SLR I still use from time to time). It's bright and big with near-perfect eye relief for use with glasses. And it features the focusing screen aids lacking in nearly all D-SLRs.

The same camera also has the most accurate evaluative metering system I've ever used. Hundreds of rolls of Kodachrome 25/64/200 run through it, not to mention all the neg film, and less than a handful of exposure misses that I can remember. It's a shame Kyocera gave up on cameras after the N Digital.

All approaches to cameras and camera subsystems have pluses and minuses. The pluses and minuses have as much to do with us and our particular tastes as with the tech. Like what you like, dislike what you dislike. And chill…

-Dave-

Amen!

[Guillermo Luijk]

Please, clarify that. I really can't understand what you are telling me. I can't see how an EVF shows you "the subject as it is just by lifting your eye."

kers can explain it to you.

Regards!

Enviado desde mi PRA-LX1 mediante Tapatalk

[Rob C]

kers can explain it to you.

Regards!

Enviado desde mi PRA-LX1 mediante Tapatalk

How confusing!

Tapatalk? No me gusta.

Enviado desde mi iPad.

:-)

[BernardLanguillier]

And OVF are objectively worse at displaying the subject you are trying to photograph as you are photographing it. In addition to that with an EVF you can see the subject as it is just by lifting your eye.

Are you talking about the 1/10s when the mirror flips?

What impact does it have on the imaging process since you have already pressed the shutter?

On the last point, I would agree if photography were about capturing reality in an objective way.

Who is the subject and what is the object?

Cheers,
Bernard

[Rob C]

And OVF are objectively worse at displaying the subject you are trying to photograph as you are photographing it. In addition to that with an EVF you can see the subject as it is just by lifting your eye.

Regards

Well, as you didn't feel like replying to my question to you about this, but hived it off to kers, think on this: no vewfinder is able to give you what the naked eyes see, if only because they see with 3D and most cameras do not. You have lost one dimension out of three before you start thinking about aperture and relative DOF etc.

Truth is, all types of finder have to be a compromise, and you select the type that best suits you and the job, assuming you have the ability to buy enough equipment to make those choices.

Lift your eye away from any kind of finder and what you see is bound to be different to what you saw in/through the camera.

The best path is to stick with the one that you are used to, and that gives you the results you like. Chopping and changing from the latest best thing to the next latest best thing helps only the advertisers and the manufacturers. Much of the time, all the buyer does is waste his money.

[Guillermo Luijk]

Are you talking about the 1/10s when the mirror flips?

No, I'm talking about realtime exposure, white balance/B&W views, about 100% framing not all DSLRs have, about realtime optical correction distortion, about image levering,...

A OVF is the old Word Perfect, an EVF is MS Word:

https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/WYSIWYG

Rob, I don't even participate in any forum which doesn't support Tapatalk, it's like the EVF for me, once I tried it there is no way back to OVFs

Regards

Enviado desde mi PRA-LX1 mediante Tapatalk

[Rob C]

No, I'm talking about realtime exposure, white balance/B&W views, about 100% framing not all DSLRs have, about realtime optical correction distortion, about image levering,...

A OVF is the old Word Perfect, an EVF is MS Word:

https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/WYSIWYG

Rob, I don't even participate in any forum which doesn't support Tapatalk, it's like the EVF for me, once I tried it there is no way back to OVFs

Regards

Enviado desde mi PRA-LX1 mediante Tapatalk

Hmmm... I think I see the problem: it's the way you get to the end of the journey that counts for you:

"OVF is the old Word Perfect, an EVF is MS Word"

For me, neither is going to make much difference, because the problem is not the tools, the problem is that I keep hitting the wrong goddam keys. Just like making pictures.

;-(

[kers]

A OVF is the old Word Perfect, an EVF is MS Word:

new is not always better... i realize this more and more...
i liked wordperfect so much better than the moloch MSword.
It is true MS Word 'won' the economic battle
I think it takes now 1 GB on my computer just to write something...
so i can agree with your comparison; We are going to miss the OVF in future...

[BernardLanguillier]

No, I'm talking about realtime exposure, white balance/B&W views, about 100% framing not all DSLRs have, about realtime optical correction distortion, about image levering,...

EVFs certainly have these abilities and OVFs don’t, we agree about the facts.

We simply don’t agree about the importance of these facts for photography relative to the ability to see an image the way it is captured by the lens. The subtle patterns in bokeh, the level of reflections on leaves when fine tuning a PL filter, the details in deep shadows or in scintilating skies, the smile of Mona Lisa.

EVFs feel a bit to me like TV reality shows vs real life.

But I admit, this is probably just my own limitations. I have a much easier time imagining a scene in B&W than extrapolating details or tones I don’t see. Or, to be even more accurate I guess, I have more fun doing so.

Cheers,
Bernard

[adriantyler]

I liked rangefinders a lot, an Olympus RC I once had got me on to them. Then the Leica rangefinders, never really cared which magnification, loved using them though. Loved looking at pictures on ground glass too, even crummy 6x9, had a screen for my SWC too, loved using that. Loved my Nikon F3 viewfinder, didn't care if it was the HP or the normal one, I even loved detaching it and looking at the tiny ground glass. The other Digital Nikons were fine too. My wife had a Lumix years back, no viewfinder, just a screen and I loved the way I had to adapt to that, I use the Sony now and flip between screen to EVF and have the magnified view on a function button, I feel it's no better or worse than anything else I've used. I'm still seeing an abstract rendition of the Reality". Whatever that is.

[KLaban]

When I look back I realise I've had very few cameras or systems over the last 50+ years but I do thank the gods that other folk change theirs as often as their underwear. Without these folk there'd be far less investment and inovation by manufacturers and far less choice for all: not to mention all those discarded undergarments which can be had for a comparative song.

[BernardLanguillier]

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/06/02/nikon-has-a-new-noct-trademark-for-cameras-and-lenses.aspx/

Things are starting to become clear...

Nikon has apparently chosen their traditional forte, the PJ domain, as the target application for their first FF mirrorless system.

My guess is that it is going to be a mini-D6 with unique lenses for a best ever low light shooting capability thanks the combination of the sensor and uniquely bright lenses.

Based on their recent track record in terms of lens design, we can expect to get a remarkable combination of top notch technical performance and bokeh to die for.

Venturing further in the guessing:
- Z mount with open specs
- 24mp, ISO fully usable up to 25,600, 16 bits pipeline
- New EVF part with low power mode leveraging natural light at day time to enable extended battery life
- the new large opening mount will enable fully circular oof specular highlights with portrait lenses
- 4K video over the full sensor at 120 im/s - ability to downscale video in camera to full HD in lower bit rate for quick sharing over the internet
- raw histogram
- fully water proof body suitable for underwater shooting down to -5m with special lenses (one in roadmap at announcement)
- IBIS
- best in class integration with smart phone (snap bridge 3.0)
- open OS accepting third party in camera apps through new dedicated store

What part of that makes sense?

Cheers,
Bernard

[Rory]

This one is hard to believe:

- best in class integration with smart phone (snap bridge 3.0)

[BernardLanguillier]

This one is hard to believe:

- best in class integration with smart phone (snap bridge 3.0)

I know... their track record has been abysmal...

But it is something that is in fact very easy to do... there must be several millions of people on this planet that could at least propose specs better than what they have today... my assumption is that they may be able to find one. 

Cheers,
Bernard

[KLaban]

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/06/02/nikon-has-a-new-noct-trademark-for-cameras-and-lenses.aspx/

Things are starting to become clear...

Nikon has apparently chosen their traditional forte, the PJ domain, as the target application for their first FF mirrorless system.

My guess is that it is going to be a mini-D6 with unique lenses for a best ever low light shooting capability thanks the combination of the sensor and uniquely bright lenses.

Based on their recent track record in terms of lens design, we can expect to get a remarkable combination of top notch technical performance and bokeh to die for.

Venturing further in the guessing:
- Z mount with open specs
- 24mp, ISO fully usable up to 25,600, 16 bits pipeline
- New EVF part with low power mode leveraging natural light at day time to enable extended battery life
- the new large opening mount will enable fully circular oof specular highlights with portrait lenses
- 4K video over the full sensor at 120 im/s - ability to downscale video in camera to full HD in lower bit rate for quick sharing over the internet
- raw histogram
- fully water proof body suitable for underwater shooting down to -5m with special lenses (one in roadmap at announcement)
- IBIS
- best in class integration with smart phone (snap bridge 3.0)
- open OS accepting third party in camera apps through new dedicated store

What part of that makes sense?

Cheers,
Bernard

But the size of those lenses...

[Martin Kristiansen]

It’s like someone polled a dozen Nikon loyalists and asked what their dream camera would be then they collated all that and said this is what we expect.

Except someone screws up on the metric to imperial conversion or something  and we ended up with a howitzer sized lens.

[BernardLanguillier]

It’s like someone polled a dozen Nikon loyalists and asked what their dream camera would be then they collated all that and said this is what we expect.

What would you expect Martin?

As far as I am concerned, I could write the exact same post about Canon.

Those 2 companies have a very clear target (Sony) and need to differentiate themselves, meaning they need to offer something more than the current top mirrorless top player.

How do you think they are going to do it?

Cheers,
Bernard