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Author Topic: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018  (Read 47047 times)

Rob C

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2018, 05:13:05 AM »

This is becoming far more interesting and wide-reaching a "debate" than anything just touching upon photography: Bernard states one view on OVFs, to be instantly contradicted by other, opposing views, informing him that his view is just subjective. Now the question is, regarding the opposition, in whose mind and at which elevated stage of development of said mind, does subjectivity also attain the status of a legitimate objectivity?

For the record, I have only looked through one photographer's EVF and was publically and politely impressed but personally informed that it would never be my choice. It was either a Sony or Fuji - I can't remember which.

On 135 format flm, I loved all my Nikons from F to F4 regarding viewfinders (the F4 had terminal issues with loading); on digital, the D200 screen is tiny, and with the magnifier is improved, but there are times when I can't read the info. under the image because of daylight. The D700, again with its magnifier is, to me, perfect, as long as I use the two af lenses in the armoury. With my manual lenses, it can't really get near the film Nikons for ease of focussing, but I do have to factor in my older eyes.

As for the critique on the shot of Bernard's pretty daughter, and on which lash the goddam lens is focussed, that's so bloody banal as well as anal, that it surprises me to read it here. At f2, would anyone expect the contours of the human face to be sharp all over? It's impossible, unless using a head-clamp and a Gitzo, to put the desired subject plane into perfect alignment with sensor plane. Anyway, I can't imagine anyone doing portraits professionally, would decide to opt for f2. Bernard using that aperture is fine, because it lets him experiment with and enjoy a lens that's expensive and pretty wonderful, too - I only wish I could justify such a purchase. But as realistic technique for portraiture, it is nothing but a gimmick; an expensive, cheap photographic trick.

The other thing here that puzzles me is this: why would anyone want to see all sorts of other, distracting displays surrounding or even on top of the viewfinder image? After the novelty of chimping wore off (rapidly), I must admit that the only times that it rises to the surface as a possibility is when I want to work inside a room whilst pointing toward a subject backlit by a window. My reality has been that apart from such situations, always problematic, there is absolutely no need to look at a histogram or a representation of the file ever again until it's in the computer. Nikon's Matrix metering is accurate enough, and the camera's DR broad enough to make all this fine-tuning beloved of geeks in here quite pointless from a final image point of view. Heysoos, just shoot the friggin' picture and forget the mechanical foreplay! You'll end up sleeping either way.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 05:16:38 AM by Rob C »
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2018, 05:23:58 AM »

EVF are clearly superior at delivering most information, no doubt.

Now, there is one - in my view essential - piece of information EVF are objectively worse at compared to OVFs, it is to display the subject you are trying to photograph as it is.

To me, who has the assumed luxury of shooting for pleasure (although I pretty much treat each image I shoot as if there were a paying client waiting for the shot), viewing a subset of a scene in a viewfinder is the base and the core of photography. It is a key reason why I like shooting.

I agree that calling this aspect important is subjective, but I still think that the superiority of the OVF along this axis is objective.

Cheers,
Bernard

And there we get to the crux of it. To see the thing as it is I look at the thing. I donít look through the viewfinder at all. The viewfinder is to make technical decisions based on the info displayed and to place compositional elements and frame. I feel no need or desire to see the scene at it is in the viewfinder. That concept is entirely meaningless to me. I love to look at things and watch things. I will look for a long time before lifting the camera if time is available. I want the viewfinder to show me as close to what the photo will be as it can. Not the thing as it is.

Iím not saying itís wrong or right. Looking at things through a camera for me is. Who decides enjoyment or not enjoyment. It is just what it is. Jeez but that sounds more like Zen Buddhism than photography but anyway.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2018, 05:55:18 AM »

And there we get to the crux of it. To see the thing as it is I look at the thing. I donít look through the viewfinder at all. The viewfinder is to make technical decisions based on the info displayed and to place compositional elements and frame. I feel no need or desire to see the scene at it is in the viewfinder. That concept is entirely meaningless to me. I love to look at things and watch things. I will look for a long time before lifting the camera if time is available. I want the viewfinder to show me as close to what the photo will be as it can. Not the thing as it is.

Iím not saying itís wrong or right. Looking at things through a camera for me is. Who decides enjoyment or not enjoyment. It is just what it is. Jeez but that sounds more like Zen Buddhism than photography but anyway.

I just hope that a day will come when EVFs will be able to please both of us. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2018, 06:03:53 AM »

Bernard using that aperture is fine, because it lets him experiment with and enjoy a lens that's expensive and pretty wonderful, too - I only wish I could justify such a purchase. But as realistic technique for portraiture, it is nothing but a gimmick; an expensive, cheap photographic trick.

Comon Rob, I paid less than 2,631 euros for this like new second hand copy of the lens in Tokyo... and I will probably be able to sell it for nearly the same amount in 5 years in Europe. That's free rental.  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard

Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2018, 06:06:31 AM »

I just hope that a day will come when EVFs will be able to please both of us. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Sony have just announced a new EVF that has a 25% increase in resolution. Perhaps the new Nikon will end up with that unit. One thing is for sure. OVF will not be improving. EVF will be.
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Manoli

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2018, 06:07:22 AM »

As for the critique on the shot of Bernard's pretty daughter, and on which lash the goddam lens is focussed, that's so bloody banal as well as anal, that it surprises me to read it here.

If you understood the difference between an observation and a critique you wouldn't have managed to so spectacularly miss the point and go off on yet another rant.  It's relevant only in the context of (mirrorless) Eye AF v DSLR AF only. One will focus, and follow focus, on the eye (duh!) the other on an area of sharp contrast unless specifically targeted elsewhere - hence the 'raison d'Ítre' of SONY developing Eye AF.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2018, 06:10:21 AM »

If you understood the difference between an observation and a critique you wouldn't have managed to so spectacularly miss the point and go off on yet another rant.  It's relevant only in the context of (mirrorless) Eye AF v DSLR AF only. One will focus, and follow focus, on the eye (duh!) the other on an area of sharp contrast unless specifically targeted elsewhere - hence the 'raison d'Ítre' of SONY developing Eye AF.

Eye AF was on on the D5 btw.  ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2018, 06:16:01 AM »

Sony have just announced a new EVF that has a 25% increase in resolution. Perhaps the new Nikon will end up with that unit. One thing is for sure. OVF will not be improving. EVF will be.

Yes, perhaps but Epson was apparently leading the pack for EVFs (the Leica SL appears to be using an Epson part), it will be interesting whether they can do even better than the Sony part. Seems likely since the SL is 2 years old.

I'd be a bit surprised if Nikon used a Sony part but this isn't impossible.

I still think that it would make more sense for Nikon to help a Sony competitor develop the technology just like they did for the D850 sensor.

Btw, this was little commented, but they have done what most people were 100% sure was impossibe with the D850 sensor... which is to get their hand on a sensor from another source as good (and I would dare to say better colorwise) as Sony's.

So they may follow the same strategy for EVFs.

Cheers,
Bernard

Manoli

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2018, 06:24:14 AM »

Eye AF was on on the D5 btw.  ;)

Well, on a 200/f2 that's something of a torture test anyway and I don't think one should draw any definitive conclusions either way   :)
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Rob C

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2018, 08:01:05 AM »

If you understood the difference between an observation and a critique you wouldn't have managed to so spectacularly miss the point and go off on yet another rant.  It's relevant only in the context of (mirrorless) Eye AF v DSLR AF only. One will focus, and follow focus, on the eye (duh!) the other on an area of sharp contrast unless specifically targeted elsewhere - hence the 'raison d'Ítre' of SONY developing Eye AF.



So, you get wonderful  eye-detection: now, when not back in that theoretical head-clamp to which I referred, and unless the person is absolutely square to the camera, which eye are you gonna select? Always the closer? You ask the model to look this way, then the other then back a bit: what's the af gonna think? It's one pf the best reasons to have an OVF and one the larger the better, because you can see what's going down on the screen and, guess what, choosing the bridge of the nose instead will sometimes get you a better DOF depending on the angle of the face to camera! Tell the eye-detector that. It's why the 500 Series 'balds were better than Nikon for that kind of work: you saw in real time and in real space.

Another poster mentioned that his technique eschewed using the viewfinder as anything but a frame, preferring to see the object instead. Trouble is, that's not how the lens ever see the subject. At least with a larger OVF you can stop down to the taking aperture and in reasonable light, get a pretty good idea if WYSIWY're getting. Worse off with a non-reflex, until you decide to enter the image via an EVF.

Of course, if you are speaking of focus via DOF scales or guestimation, that's another ballgame. Perfect, in fact, for the Street Section.

KLaban

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #50 on: May 31, 2018, 10:22:50 AM »

I switched from film to digital some ten years ago and have since owned two digital systems, one with the best OVF on the market and the other with possibly the worst EVF on the market.

Apart from the obvious caveat of horses for courses I'm perfectly happy using either.
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Rob C

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #51 on: May 31, 2018, 10:53:00 AM »

I switched from film to digital some ten years ago and have since owned two digital systems, one with the best OVF on the market and the other with possibly the worst EVF on the market.

Apart from the obvious caveat of horses for courses I'm perfectly happy using either.


Doesn't count: you are not an obsessive.

:-)

KLaban

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #52 on: May 31, 2018, 11:06:23 AM »


Doesn't count: you are not an obsessive.

:-)

That's not what my wife would have you believe.

:-)
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chez

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #53 on: May 31, 2018, 11:23:57 AM »

Sony have just announced a new EVF that has a 25% increase in resolution. Perhaps the new Nikon will end up with that unit. One thing is for sure. OVF will not be improving. EVF will be.

From my perspective OVF went down hill in DSLRís. The Olympus cameras 40 years ago had better brighter viewfinders than todayís DSLR cameras.
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chez

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #54 on: May 31, 2018, 11:29:54 AM »



So, you get wonderful  eye-detection: now, when not back in that theoretical head-clamp to which I referred, and unless the person is absolutely square to the camera, which eye are you gonna select? Always the closer? You ask the model to look this way, then the other then back a bit: what's the af gonna think? It's one pf the best reasons to have an OVF and one the larger the better, because you can see what's going down on the screen and, guess what, choosing the bridge of the nose instead will sometimes get you a better DOF depending on the angle of the face to camera! Tell the eye-detector that. It's why the 500 Series 'balds were better than Nikon for that kind of work: you saw in real time and in real space.

Another poster mentioned that his technique eschewed using the viewfinder as anything but a frame, preferring to see the object instead. Trouble is, that's not how the lens ever see the subject. At least with a larger OVF you can stop down to the taking aperture and in reasonable light, get a pretty good idea if WYSIWY're getting. Worse off with a non-reflex, until you decide to enter the image via an EVF.

Of course, if you are speaking of focus via DOF scales or guestimation, that's another ballgame. Perfect, in fact, for the Street Section.

Rob, have you ever used a Sony with eye detection and AF tracking? Seems like you have such a strong opinion on it...must have a lot of experience with it. Otherwise itís just hot air.
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #55 on: May 31, 2018, 11:40:13 AM »

Yes it works very well. Choose a spot focus area then when you eye focus it prioritises the eye in that area. Anyway itís just an option. If you find it complicated just manual focus. No big deal.
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Rob C

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #56 on: May 31, 2018, 12:59:38 PM »

Rob, have you ever used a Sony with eye detection and AF tracking? Seems like you have such a strong opinion on it...must have a lot of experience with it. Otherwise itís just hot air.


Check my post #40.

I have no problems using olde-worlde systems because I know what I'm doing with them, and experience shows me they work perfectly well for my needs.

Folks obsess about this stuff; instead, look at the work of someone like Hans Feurer who has built his reputation since forever with very long lenses for fashion. His focus was always great, and his backgrounds an exercise in blur; however, if you look closely, the bits of the shot that need to be seen clearly, i.e. the clothes, are crisp as is the face. In other words, though he's probably on 300mm and longer, he is using stops far from wide open. That being the practical reality of life, whether the friggin' machine focuses on the eye or the front of the dress makes little difference: it's all sharp. Reality and practical use is what I believe in, not sales gimmick. If you need to track somebody, they will still be sharp if the focussing area is in the relevant plane. Also, if you are further away, the fact of the matter is that depth of focus with a long lens is greater than with a wider one. That is, depth of focus on the sensor, not depth of field at the subject.

In effect, what I'm saying is that yes, I'm sure the new toys work, but they are far from essential, and only if you get your kicks from toys do they matter a hoot.

You'd think photography didn't exist before digital, that wonderful work hadn't happened

Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #57 on: May 31, 2018, 01:31:05 PM »

Hahahahaha. Rob you are such a grumpy old git and and now I find myself agreeing with you completely. I might also be a grumpy old git.
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Guillermo Luijk

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #58 on: May 31, 2018, 01:55:40 PM »

there is one - in my view essential - piece of information EVF are objectively worse at compared to OVFs, it is to display the subject you are trying to photograph as it is.

And OVF are objectively worse at displaying the subject you are trying to photograph as you are photographing it. In addition to that with an EVF you can see the subject as it is just by lifting your eye.

Regards

kers

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
« Reply #59 on: May 31, 2018, 02:52:36 PM »

And OVF are objectively worse at displaying the subject you are trying to photograph as you are photographing it. In addition to that with an EVF you can see the subject as it is just by lifting your eye.

Regards

not with tele lenses
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